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 Togusa wrote:

This must have been something my local groups never got the memo for. All I ever saw was min/maxing. No one was talking about narratives or any such thing. And to be fair, I don't see that in 40K or even in KT much. Most of the KT in our area is just min/maxing.

That's because gamers are hyper competitive these days. They're bread to be.

Before 8th yes. After 8th release practically most (if not all) of these people went to 8th edition and/or other games. For the last year the majority that stayed are those that actually care about narrative.

Just my opinion here, but I like the basics of the AoD ruleset (40k 3rd - 7th ed), although it suffers from some bloat from so many years/editions. I was in favor of simplifying it, but 8th kind of took a wrong turn for me.

Making morale just another form of durability, eliminating the impact of facing, eliminating the fun and flavor of putting down the flamer template, etc. These take away some of the feel of a war game for me, personally. The addition of CPs and the cards had potential, but for me, they don’t add the type of strategy I’m looking for. If I wanted to win with card selection and combos, I would play a CCG. I would rather the most important decisions be around positioning, maneuvering, and planning.

But more to the point, HH is clearly in a lull. My brother and I are loving our campaign, but I can tell there’s not much interest in the wider community these days. But that’s ok. We love the setting, the story and the models and for us, that’s what our games are all about.

I'm going to chime in and say that 8th ed is a superior rules set to 7th and 7.5.
With the limits on legion lists baked into the game, most forces could be pretty balanced, and with Zone Mortalis and Centurion game types this has been supported.
However FW seems to lack some key personnel at the moment, as some have gone to the specialist team and the 'show runner' for HH sadly passed away.
Specialist Games are maintaining an enviable release schedule, launching one of the old games and supporting material per year and producing excellent plastic kits at a pace FW doesn't seem to be able to reproduce.
I'd love to see HH folded into Specialist or the main 40k studio, with some more plastic releases and a new set of 8th compatible books.
I can see why FW didn't convert to 8th, and it isn't because of a love of 7th but rather a lack of manpower to do new 8th compatible books and playtest them.

GW is going with the times and has learned a thing or two with recent edition of how things should be done. For example listening more to the community.

Now its only natural to learn to work with your fandom. There are some video game companies that work with their modding community. Converting to 8th edition can be done faster than we can think but only if GW/FW make such a step.

P.S. I personally dont believe it GW will do such a thing but it would be certainly a surprise.

I think the issue with FW is somewhat down to some of the people involved and internal politics. I'd love to see FW rules taken over by the main studio, or a better staffed design team, but it doesn't seem likely currently.

I don't see HH being able to survive as its standalone product if they don't support it better than they currently do. I'll keep on working on my Emperor's Children, but probably play them more locally as an 8th edition army(CSM or SM). I see a few HH players do the same and as someone mentioned earlier it is because the 7th edition ruleset is really clunky and unfriendly. It's a bit like going from the newest edition of Dungeons and Dragons to the first edition of AD&D. It just has a lot of baggage you don't need anymore and random crap that isn't doing anyone any favors.

 Togusa wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I wouldn't say its a better game, at all, but I do think it is more adaptated to AoD. Now in 8th I can finish two 2000pts game in one day when in 7h I had one game and then I was tired and it was already late. 8th is more gaming friendly, and this is how I see 40k.
But I don't see 30k as just a «game», the narrative, almost rpg aspects, are as important as just gaming, to me.
Different game, differents universes, different feeling, different rulesets. I think it would be a loss if we stopped 7th AoD: one less ruleset. Less diversity.
AoD is the only one who got 7th right, let's it keep it.

This must have been something my local groups never got the memo for. All I ever saw was min/maxing. No one was talking about narratives or any such thing. And to be fair, I don't see that in 40K or even in KT much. Most of the KT in our area is just min/maxing.

That's because gamers are hyper competitive these days. They're bread to be.

That's a shame. There's not a lot of casual 30K play in my area, as most of the players are scattered around the country with conflicting schedules, but there's two events a year being run with a heavy narrative focus, list vetting to match the beardy players against the beardy, and players are generally encouraged to bring fun, varied lists rather than optimised filth fests.

 godardc wrote:
I wouldn't say its a better game, at all, but I do think it is more adaptated to AoD. Now in 8th I can finish two 2000pts game in one day when in 7h I had one game and then I was tired and it was already late. 8th is more gaming friendly, and this is how I see 40k.
But I don't see 30k as just a «game», the narrative, almost rpg aspects, are as important as just gaming, to me.
Different game, differents universes, different feeling, different rulesets. I think it would be a loss if we stopped 7th AoD: one less ruleset. Less diversity.
AoD is the only one who got 7th right, let's it keep it.

In 7th ed I could play 2k game with orks in 2h. In 8th it takes 3h. 8th ed is slowest edition I have ever played in 40k yet.

8th being slow seems in my experience to be an inherent problem with horde armies. All of my games have been quicker in 8th unless I am fighting against a horde such as Orks, IG, or Tyranids. I think one of the reasons for that is that the split-fire rule allows people to spend a lot of time agonizing how best to utilize all their firepower.

I started a plastic IW army but I kinda realized without all the tanks and really expensive resin stuff it's sorta just two 3+ armies trading bolter shells. A 30k army is a labor of love that's harder find games for than 40k or AoS.

 Haanz wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I wouldn't say its a better game, at all, but I do think it is more adaptated to AoD. Now in 8th I can finish two 2000pts game in one day when in 7h I had one game and then I was tired and it was already late. 8th is more gaming friendly, and this is how I see 40k.
But I don't see 30k as just a «game», the narrative, almost rpg aspects, are as important as just gaming, to me.
Different game, differents universes, different feeling, different rulesets. I think it would be a loss if we stopped 7th AoD: one less ruleset. Less diversity.
AoD is the only one who got 7th right, let's it keep it.

This must have been something my local groups never got the memo for. All I ever saw was min/maxing. No one was talking about narratives or any such thing. And to be fair, I don't see that in 40K or even in KT much. Most of the KT in our area is just min/maxing.

That's because gamers are hyper competitive these days. They're bread to be.

That's a shame. There's not a lot of casual 30K play in my area, as most of the players are scattered around the country with conflicting schedules, but there's two events a year being run with a heavy narrative focus, list vetting to match the beardy players against the beardy, and players are generally encouraged to bring fun, varied lists rather than optimised filth fests.

Around here they cannot get any traction. What little remains of our local groups were trying to organize a narrative day. They spent months on it, planning and advertising. It was supposed to happen yesterday, but it was cancelled at the last minute due to low enrollment. Only three people signed up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fajita Fan wrote:
I started a plastic IW army but I kinda realized without all the tanks and really expensive resin stuff it's sorta just two 3+ armies trading bolter shells. A 30k army is a labor of love that's harder find games for than 40k or AoS.

That is the second part of the problem when compared to barrier to entry. Buying two of the big plastic boxes got you nothing. You need things like Leviathans, Spartans, Sicarians and the very expensive characters. Just compare the price of FW Rowboat to the 40K one. I believe it's nearly a 50$ difference. So I just bought the 40K one and used it instead.

Fajita Fan wrote:
I started a plastic IW army but I kinda realized without all the tanks and really expensive resin stuff it's sorta just two 3+ armies trading bolter shells. A 30k army is a labor of love that's harder find games for than 40k or AoS.

I think you are right that it is a labor of love. Another problem is that due to high price of entry a lot of people who want to get into 30k sadly end up buying recasts which I fear might deter FW from expanding upon their existing lines.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Fajita Fan wrote:
I started a plastic IW army but I kinda realized without all the tanks and really expensive resin stuff it's sorta just two 3+ armies trading bolter shells. A 30k army is a labor of love that's harder find games for than 40k or AoS.

I think you are right that it is a labor of love. Another problem is that due to high price of entry a lot of people who want to get into 30k sadly end up buying recasts which I fear might deter FW from expanding upon their existing lines.

Recasting is hugely popular for FW in general. I've heard that you can often get the bigger HH tanks and LoW models for pennies on the dollar, though they often require more work due to defects and the like.

One thing I secretly hope for is that with the success GW is having, it might be possible in the future to switch FW to a hard plastic based business just like their parent company now is. If that would happen, I bet some of these issues would dry up over night.

 Togusa wrote:

Recasting is hugely popular for FW in general. I've heard that you can often get the bigger HH tanks and LoW models for pennies on the dollar, though they often require more work due to defects and the like.

That's the hilarious part, decent recasters are significantly cheaper and their quality is the same or better. There are certainly dirt cheap recasts that are worse quality that FW, but plenty that are as good. FW is just terrible at pricing their items to sell. Going into the summer I thought they should drop prices by 1/3 and at that point I would buy directly from them. Instead they jacked up the prices by 1/3 in the US. Now I'm even less motivated to buy from them. The new Solar Auxilia aurox transport is 25 points in the game and you'll be losing 2-4 a turn easily, yet it costs 90 dollars. It's basically a rhino, yet costs 2.25 of a plastic rhino and 1.33 of a deimos rhino. Someone must have been doing drugs when deciding on a price for that model.

Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.

tneva82 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I wouldn't say its a better game, at all, but I do think it is more adaptated to AoD. Now in 8th I can finish two 2000pts game in one day when in 7h I had one game and then I was tired and it was already late. 8th is more gaming friendly, and this is how I see 40k.
But I don't see 30k as just a «game», the narrative, almost rpg aspects, are as important as just gaming, to me.
Different game, differents universes, different feeling, different rulesets. I think it would be a loss if we stopped 7th AoD: one less ruleset. Less diversity.
AoD is the only one who got 7th right, let's it keep it.

In 7th ed I could play 2k game with orks in 2h. In 8th it takes 3h. 8th ed is slowest edition I have ever played in 40k yet.

...how? 8E has its issues, but speed, especially relative to 7E is not one of them. Almost everything in 8E is faster. Stuff dies faster, there's fewer random tables to roll on and charts to consult, stuff arrives from reserves faster, movement apeeds are higher, there's usually fewer units and models on the board (in 5E-7E I could easily make a Guard army with 12-15 vehicles and 65-100 infantry, that's not possible in 8E), etc.

godardc wrote:Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.

Well, there's not much choice if one wants certain models, lots of FW's catalog just doesn't exist anymore, and, more to the point, some simply produce a superior product.

 Vaktathi wrote:
..how? 8E has its issues, but speed, especially relative to 7E is not one of them. Almost everything in 8E is faster. Stuff dies faster, there's fewer random tables to roll on and charts to consult, stuff arrives from reserves faster, movement apeeds are higher, there's usually fewer units and models on the board (in 5E-7E I could easily make a Guard army with 12-15 vehicles and 65-100 infantry, that's not possible in 8E), etc.

I agree that the base game system is much much faster, but there are a few things that currently slow the game down - the biggest being that everything is new! Everyone in 7ed knew the stats of all the basic troops and weapons by heart - they hadn’t changed since 3ed. Even a year in, I still need to check a load of stuff just in case I’m wrong. This gets even worse with things like Stratgems. The slowest 8ed game I’ve played was against a guard player who took AGES, every phase, to check through his 30 stratagem cards to see what he could use. Plus, some units got split 8nto lots of smaller units (usually command squads), and more units means more playtime. Some of these might get better as people get used to the rules, of course,

godardc wrote:Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.

Yeah, but quotes likes that don’t actually solve anything. The base issue is that FW price their models so incredibly high, yet produce a game that requires so many, that it’s possible for an entire black market industry to thrive on producing copies that are, in some cases, better quality than the origInals. That’s insane.

 godardc wrote:
Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.

LOL
A lot of people who buy from recasters, simply would never buy anything from FW...why? Well, it's damn too expensive...70quid for like 10 marines, oh yea baby, cheap as chips...you can get Infinity miniatures which are superior in quality and metal for less $$$. Not to mention that in a lot of cases, final FW product is quite warped or even bad quality.
People who just wanna play game and enjoy hobby which otherwise would be too expensive for them are really parasites, yes...no comment. If FW didn't turn off customers with unrealistic prices, probably less people would buy from recasters.
On the other hand, when someone offers you great quality for 25-30% of the original price, ofcourse bunch of people are gonna jump on that train...
But apparently FW are don't really care too much, they managed to alianate they own customers recently, because rising prices in the best interest of it's customers, you know...for their own good and they will actually profit for paying more somehow.
People who have money buy from FW, people who don't have it or suddenly don't want to support their business any more for what ever reason, they will find alternative buy routes, more affordable.

In 7th ed I could play 2k game with orks in 2h. In 8th it takes 3h. 8th ed is slowest edition I have ever played in 40k yet.

Not sure you are playing same game as others, since 8th is probably faster than any other edition so far. It's kinda hard to streamline gameplay, yet somehow make game last longer in process,lol. One guy claims 8th is almost boardgame how simple it is, now you claim it's taking longer for some reason,lol...
just banal example, unit of 10 flamers, before, place each template individually, maybe even argue how much models are underneath it, count it. Now, just roll 10 dices for how much hits there are,slower somehow?
Before shoot enemy tank, but wait, is this side or front armor, let's check, hmm, lets chechk if you other weapon can actually see the tank etc. now, part of your tank sees enemy tank, roll to hit...

 smurfORnot wrote:

But apparently FW are don't really care too much, they managed to alianate they own customers recently, because rising prices in the best interest of it's customers, you know...for their own good and they will actually profit for paying more somehow.
People who have money buy from FW, people who don't have it or suddenly don't want to support their business any more for what ever reason, they will find alternative buy routes, more affordable.

As a side note, FW is in no way responsible for the selling of or pricing of it's items, that's sales and marketing. FW is a creative studio. Games Workshop brought the 30% hike down on the FW stuff because some bright spark in that dept suddenly woke up and noticed FW sales shooting up after the collapse of the pound following the brexit vote. It's been scheduled since that time.

Cost aside I’m not buying FW resin because I don’t miss superglue and plastic is so much easier to work with. Any of the stuff I do for my IW army will be done with plastic marines and plastic conversions. I’ll be using regular Rhinos and LRs and simply convert what I can to look 30kish.

 Eldarsif wrote:
8th being slow seems in my experience to be an inherent problem with horde armies. All of my games have been quicker in 8th unless I am fighting against a horde such as Orks, IG, or Tyranids. I think one of the reasons for that is that the split-fire rule allows people to spend a lot of time agonizing how best to utilize all their firepower.

I've noticed the same thing, however, usually slow games for me have been because my opponent doesn't know their faction rules well. Most of the games I've played have been from set up to the handshake, about 1.7 hours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
..how? 8E has its issues, but speed, especially relative to 7E is not one of them. Almost everything in 8E is faster. Stuff dies faster, there's fewer random tables to roll on and charts to consult, stuff arrives from reserves faster, movement apeeds are higher, there's usually fewer units and models on the board (in 5E-7E I could easily make a Guard army with 12-15 vehicles and 65-100 infantry, that's not possible in 8E), etc.

I agree that the base game system is much much faster, but there are a few things that currently slow the game down - the biggest being that everything is new! Everyone in 7ed knew the stats of all the basic troops and weapons by heart - they hadn’t changed since 3ed. Even a year in, I still need to check a load of stuff just in case I’m wrong. This gets even worse with things like Stratgems. The slowest 8ed game I’ve played was against a guard player who took AGES, every phase, to check through his 30 stratagem cards to see what he could use. Plus, some units got split 8nto lots of smaller units (usually command squads), and more units means more playtime. Some of these might get better as people get used to the rules, of course,

godardc wrote:Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.

Yeah, but quotes likes that don’t actually solve anything. The base issue is that FW price their models so incredibly high, yet produce a game that requires so many, that it’s possible for an entire black market industry to thrive on producing copies that are, in some cases, better quality than the origInals. That’s insane.

The average points for HH is supposed to be about 2500-3000. It requires a lot more, although, you can theme your army to cut down on the model count. Bringing LoW also seem to be popular in the community as well, which can be big point sinks.

The two things I've found that slow 8th down a bit is people taking forever in spending CP and measuring auras from characters and then everything and their mother rerolling everything. Your throwing a lot more dice in 8th and between modifiers up the ying yang and the twin linked change that slows the game a bit.

 Togusa wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

Fajita Fan wrote:
I started a plastic IW army but I kinda realized without all the tanks and really expensive resin stuff it's sorta just two 3+ armies trading bolter shells. A 30k army is a labor of love that's harder find games for than 40k or AoS.

I think you are right that it is a labor of love. Another problem is that due to high price of entry a lot of people who want to get into 30k sadly end up buying recasts which I fear might deter FW from expanding upon their existing lines.

Recasting is hugely popular for FW in general. I've heard that you can often get the bigger HH tanks and LoW models for pennies on the dollar, though they often require more work due to defects and the like.

One thing I secretly hope for is that with the success GW is having, it might be possible in the future to switch FW to a hard plastic based business just like their parent company now is. If that would happen, I bet some of these issues would dry up over night.

The reason recasting for FW is so popular is because of the odd pricing structure GW has imposed on FW. FW has always been the expensive exclusive big toy off shoot of GW. They started with alternate tank turrets because Tony C and Phil S where/are huge tread heads.... but well they just kept on making bigger and bigger stuff because it sold.... why did it sell because they used the 'real' exchange rate and for the most part you could get FW cheaper then proper GW plastic stuff in a lot of parts in the world ( I live in Canada and for a long while it was cheaper to get resin marines/ resin rhino's then the plastic GW stuff)

Now because of the Odd pricing structure GW has imposed ( and I'm not just talking about the recent price hike) there is a demand for the product for whatever reason but people don't want to pay the price so they find the cheapest alternative which usually involves china or russia. I have both UK FW and ChinaCast and for the most part they are pretty much the same quality ( some odd clean up because it's resin), same customer service ( I had a badly cast Warhound and they offered to send me a replacement one or give me a full refund while keeping the model or give me store credit, I took the credit) the only real difference is the price.

I have zero sympathy for GW/FW, the Kirby years killed most of my motivation to play 40k but for some damn reason I still love the 30k and old 40k universe. So as they actually screwed me out a job I have no sympathy for them when I buy stuff from china or russia. I have a Mechanicum army and it's a blast to assemble and paint. Do I really plan on playing it.... not really I have a group of friends that we play HH AoD 7th very infrequently but other then that this is a modeling project for me.

I haven't seen a huge turn around in GW's attitude or business practices so I still choose not to support them as much as I can. Malibu Stacy just got a new hat, everything under the hat is still the same old gak.

FW will NEVER move to a fully plastic model line as it's WAY to expensive to start up. Resin is the perfect medium for high detail low volume models. Plus I think GW's plastic still isn't that great. It's getting better I will admit that but I really dislike the monopose plastic single character clam packs.

Just one other question Togusa (great name btw) if you have had nothing but bad experiences with HH why do you want the rules to move to 8th edition? Did 8th edition suddenly make all your WAAC players change overnight? What I suggest is that you find 3 or 4 other people who have the same mindset as yourself ( playing more for the story then winning at all cost) and try out a few of the HH narrative campaigns they are fantastic fun when you have a group of like minded players and not a bunch of people trying to break HH as fast as possible because oh man can you really break HH if you really try..... just like you could break 40k with superfriends, just like you can break 40k with Imperial Soup armies.... Building new terrain, coming up with game hooks, there is so much to explore with HH as long as you don't fall into the 'playing on planet bowling ball with the meanest nastiest net lists" trope.

 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
Just one other question Togusa (great name btw) if you have had nothing but bad experiences with HH why do you want the rules to move to 8th edition? Did 8th edition suddenly make all your WAAC players change overnight? What I suggest is that you find 3 or 4 other people who have the same mindset as yourself ( playing more for the story then winning at all cost) and try out a few of the HH narrative campaigns they are fantastic fun when you have a group of like minded players and not a bunch of people trying to break HH as fast as possible because oh man can you really break HH if you really try..... just like you could break 40k with superfriends, just like you can break 40k with Imperial Soup armies.... Building new terrain, coming up with game hooks, there is so much to explore with HH as long as you don't fall into the 'playing on planet bowling ball with the meanest nastiest net lists" trope.

I can't answer for Togusa, but the reason why I want HH to move to 8th edition is to get more support for it. I have a group of like minded HH players that I game with so rules abuse is not an issue. Most of us want it to move to 8th because 7th is clunky and I personally think 8th would give a better representation of the legions and their variety. Additionally my group generally thinks that moving to 8th would bring more players into the game and that means more support from GW in terms of new models and campaigns. It was a lot easier to convince people to participate in HH games when 40k and 30k shared the new rules set. Now it's just our core group of players and if anyone moves it's going to be tough to add new members.

bogalubov wrote:

 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
Just one other question Togusa (great name btw) if you have had nothing but bad experiences with HH why do you want the rules to move to 8th edition? Did 8th edition suddenly make all your WAAC players change overnight? What I suggest is that you find 3 or 4 other people who have the same mindset as yourself ( playing more for the story then winning at all cost) and try out a few of the HH narrative campaigns they are fantastic fun when you have a group of like minded players and not a bunch of people trying to break HH as fast as possible because oh man can you really break HH if you really try..... just like you could break 40k with superfriends, just like you can break 40k with Imperial Soup armies.... Building new terrain, coming up with game hooks, there is so much to explore with HH as long as you don't fall into the 'playing on planet bowling ball with the meanest nastiest net lists" trope.

I can't answer for Togusa, but the reason why I want HH to move to 8th edition is to get more support for it. I have a group of like minded HH players that I game with so rules abuse is not an issue. Most of us want it to move to 8th because 7th is clunky and I personally think 8th would give a better representation of the legions and their variety. Additionally my group generally thinks that moving to 8th would bring more players into the game and that means more support from GW in terms of new models and campaigns. It was a lot easier to convince people to participate in HH games when 40k and 30k shared the new rules set. Now it's just our core group of players and if anyone moves it's going to be tough to add new members.

Same in my area...people didn't have problem playing 7th, but not that everyone plays 8th, they really don't wanan go back to 7th and play different ruleset. Not to mention that it was way easier, wanna play 40k vs 30k army before, no problem, might not be best balance, but you could still do it, now there is simply no way for it. If there were no thsoe fan made 8th rules, no one would play HH any more in my area. Kinda makes it hard pill for new player to swallow, well, you can buy this expensive army that you 'can't use' in 40k, and that only very small ammount of people plays, and if they decide to stop, tough luck, since now you can't use your expensive army in 40k...and as it is now, with how everyting slowed really down, and stuff is being discounted from FW, no one can guarantee you really how whole story ends...

You know, it just dawned on me, the problem with Horus Heresy in GW's eyes is not the rules; it's the scale.

Now that they have Primaris marines, they are not going to want to release any more regular scale marines. So they are not going to want to push a system that only uses obsolete models of the wrong scale.

I don't think it's that. I think older Marines still have a place, and I think HH is where it was before BaC and BoP, obscure with small releases.
What is needs is another adrenaline shot, maybe a Start collecting HH....

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

What is needs is another adrenaline shot, maybe a Start collecting HH....

This could be a good test.

 The Riddle of Steel wrote:
You know, it just dawned on me, the problem with Horus Heresy in GW's eyes is not the rules; it's the scale.

Now that they have Primaris marines, they are not going to want to release any more regular scale marines. So they are not going to want to push a system that only uses obsolete models of the wrong scale.

They are correct scale for regular marines though at least with custodians. Head shorter than custodians=perfect. Primaris are about custodian size so if GW were to do 30k primaris sized marines they would need to upscale custodians as well.

Issue is normal humans being too big. With 30k this is actually less of issue as there's not much of those so they could take the chance to properly rescale the humans. Don't think they are likely to upscale all the custodians in a hurry being brand new plastics and all.

 smurfORnot wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
Just one other question Togusa (great name btw) if you have had nothing but bad experiences with HH why do you want the rules to move to 8th edition? Did 8th edition suddenly make all your WAAC players change overnight? What I suggest is that you find 3 or 4 other people who have the same mindset as yourself ( playing more for the story then winning at all cost) and try out a few of the HH narrative campaigns they are fantastic fun when you have a group of like minded players and not a bunch of people trying to break HH as fast as possible because oh man can you really break HH if you really try..... just like you could break 40k with superfriends, just like you can break 40k with Imperial Soup armies.... Building new terrain, coming up with game hooks, there is so much to explore with HH as long as you don't fall into the 'playing on planet bowling ball with the meanest nastiest net lists" trope.

I can't answer for Togusa, but the reason why I want HH to move to 8th edition is to get more support for it. I have a group of like minded HH players that I game with so rules abuse is not an issue. Most of us want it to move to 8th because 7th is clunky and I personally think 8th would give a better representation of the legions and their variety. Additionally my group generally thinks that moving to 8th would bring more players into the game and that means more support from GW in terms of new models and campaigns. It was a lot easier to convince people to participate in HH games when 40k and 30k shared the new rules set. Now it's just our core group of players and if anyone moves it's going to be tough to add new members.

Same in my area...people didn't have problem playing 7th, but not that everyone plays 8th, they really don't wanan go back to 7th and play different ruleset. Not to mention that it was way easier, wanna play 40k vs 30k army before, no problem, might not be best balance, but you could still do it, now there is simply no way for it. If there were no thsoe fan made 8th rules, no one would play HH any more in my area. Kinda makes it hard pill for new player to swallow, well, you can buy this expensive army that you 'can't use' in 40k, and that only very small ammount of people plays, and if they decide to stop, tough luck, since now you can't use your expensive army in 40k...and as it is now, with how everyting slowed really down, and stuff is being discounted from FW, no one can guarantee you really how whole story ends...

The thing is, most of those people clamouring for HH to move to 8th only played HH in the first place because 40k was in such a horrible place. I'm willing to bet most of the very same people baying that HH go 8th, whilst acting gleeful at perceptions it's dying, still wouldn't give it the time of day. The exception would be if a guy with a Legions list offered them a game against their Primaris or something. 30k was and will likely always be niche. Even at it's height, it was mostly people running Pride of the Legion. People wanted a Games Workshop(tm) approved product they could play Space Marines in that wasn't 40k, because 40k was busted. Now 40k is 'better' most of them are only going to stick with that anyway.

If HH went 8th, I'm willing to bet good money those same detractors would then shift the narrative to, "I will never buy a short Marine now Primaris are here. If FW don't give us true scaled 30k, it will die. Nobody in my community is playing 30k because short Marines look weird."