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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the Tusken’s....

Spoiler:

And the overall plan. Remember, it was the Tusken’s plan. And as The Mando said, they are the experts.

It’s also at least Legends Canon that the Tusken’s form a serious bond with their Bantha’s. It may be that this tribe simply didn’t consider themselves to have Bantha’s to spare.

Given how terse the alliance was, it probably made sense to follow the Tusken’s lead on that one?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

guy at the end is temura morrison so... yeah that's Boba Fett.... or they're deliberatly faking us out and he's actually a clone looking for fett, but yeah... totally fett

Spoiler:

They could be faking us out. Boba (checking Wookieepedia) was around 32 at the time of Yavin.

Endorse was 4 ABY, so Boba was around 36 when he made a tasty snack.

Mando is 9 ABY, so Boba would be 41 (slightly older than I).

Given a life of action, and the toll that takes on a body? Almost certainly Boba, rather than a Clone. Even the youngest of Clones (one produced in 22ABY, when the Republic fell would be.....31 natural years, but aged to what, 25 for combat duties? Certainly Rex looked a good deal older on Endor.

They had at least one to spare since there was the failed feeding.

]


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

guy at the end is temura morrison so... yeah that's Boba Fett.... or they're deliberatly faking us out and he's actually a clone looking for fett, but yeah... totally fett

Morrison is credited on IMDB. There's no doubt he's who he's expected to be.

 chromedog wrote:

The clones had accelerated growth and other augments. Boba was unaugmented and did not have the accelerated aging of the clones bred for the GAR, so would presumably only age at the normal rate. Rex looked older at Endor because as a clone trooper, he had the "accelerated aging" thing.

Yeah, the movie even takes the time to make a big deal about this despite being one of those things best left to the EU.

Hrm liked it but annoyed at the side-side-side quest nature of the plot.

Mando is looking for other Mandalorians who will ask their folks who will help him find a Jedi? So this episode he shakes down a random dude, who gives him a planet, which takes him to... another dude who's not even a Mandalorian?

I thought Luke's Jedi status was kind of famous after RotJ? Or, failing that, why not go to Coracant and star with the Jedi temple? Was all evidence of the Jedi ever existing so completely wiped out that no one suggests this?

Well, remember that Han, who was born during the Republic and Clone Wars era, hadn’t heard of The Force.

Din Djarin is much the same. But given how few the Jedi were? It’s not inconceivable he’d have little to no knowledge.

And, to the best of my knowledge, we don’t where or when Luke setup his Jedi Academy?

We live in an information drenched society, but SW seems like a technologically advanced low-information society. Maybe it's just the outer rim where you need to know how to survive, but you don't have free time to learn whatever you want.

 bbb wrote:
We live in an information drenched society, but SW seems like a technologically advanced low-information society. Maybe it's just the outer rim where you need to know how to survive, but you don't have free time to learn whatever you want.

A very good point.

But whether it's a Space Google search or a hacker in a back alley who's monitoring the hyperwaves there must be a more elegant way to find information on these 'Jedi' who were galactic peace keepers just 30 years ago and recently returned to overthrow the empire. Oh and fought a major war on Mandalore itself!

A smoother way to get this side story going might have been Mando hearing there were once some Jedi on Tatooine and heading that way. Then he hears about another Mandalorian and off the story goes. Maybe throw in something about there's too much unrest in the core systems to even think of Corocant...

I mean we'll see as the show goes on, and it is very good, but the transition from 'find the Jedi' to 'kill the sand worm' IMHO was very clumsy.

I never got the impression from the movies that Luke is especially well known. He's a mid-level field commander so he's certainly known to Rebel personnel at the base he's working, but the political and strategic side is always in the hands of other people. Generals Dodo, Ricky and Maddy, Mon Mothma, Leia's (foster) dad rather than Leia (before that little mining accident, anyway) and so forth. It's General Solo who takes out the shield generator on Endor and General Calrissian who takes out the Death Star. Importantly, that was the plan. The assassination of the Emperor wasn't planned to go down with fisticuffs. Palpi's on the Death Star, blow up the Death Star, problem solved. Luke going up there was never part of the plan. Truthfully, since I don't take Luke for someone given to bragging, I'm not sure why anyone would play up the involvement of him as a person or him as a Jedi. Thus the closest you'll get to Jedi involvement is everyone invoking the Force as a blessing, which has nothing to do with the Jedi themselves.

Rebels also made it abundantly clear that information flow inside the Rebellion was rigorously controlled. At no point did they release information about Jedi involvement to the general public but kept them hidden assets (not that the latter was particularly successful). Jedi weren't universally popular towards the end of the Clone Wars as per that show.

It may seem off that no one knows much about the Jedi anymore, but it seems like the show and movie creators certainly tried to give plausible reasons why he Jedi were so quickly forgotten, even if they didn't seem to go into the Imperial propaganda side of things so much on screen. I consider it just something to accept about the world and not question it too deeply.

Here's a quick test. Ask a 20 year old person what they know about Margaret Thatcher, Mikhail Gorbachev, Pope John Paul II, and The Berlin Wall.

 bbb wrote:
Here's a quick test. Ask a 20 year old person what they know about Margaret Thatcher, Mikhail Gorbachev, Pope John Paul II, and The Berlin Wall.

Ask a bounty hunter looking for... oh ex-Soviet officers what he knows about the Soviet Union.

Mando isn't some farm boy.

Just got to watch the new episode finally, that was fantastic!

Loved all the references made throughout.

My understanding is the artwork comes first, as part of the storyboarding process. So

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, remember that Han, who was born during the Republic and Clone Wars era, hadn’t heard of The Force.

Which still doesn't make any sense.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, remember that Han, who was born during the Republic and Clone Wars era, hadn’t heard of The Force.

Which still doesn't make any sense.

That's Star Wars. I could write a dissertation on things that make no sense in OT and PT.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, remember that Han, who was born during the Republic and Clone Wars era, hadn’t heard of The Force.

Which still doesn't make any sense.

I do find it bizarre how the franchise bounces back and forth on this issue. It needs to pick a lane, or create a more coherent pastiche.

There are times where it seems like the Force and the Jedi are common knowledge, if something not everyone believes is real (the movies mostly), and there are times where it's treated like no one in the galaxy has heard of it (some of the new and old EU material). Usually it's whatever is convenient for the narrative, and I feel like it makes the franchise seem unplanned and poorly coordinated rather than diverse or varied.

I found it pretty bad recently too. I don't find it that egregious that Han has heard of the Force but doesn't believe it. Someone could reasonably chalk it up to tall tales. But how has Mando never heard of the Jedi? Cause the start of season 1 makes it sound like he has some idea what they are, but the end of Season 1 makes it seem like he's never heard of them before and the wisened old Mandalorian forge lady treats them like a distant story in the year 9 ABY. Even the rebel lady doesn't know about them? How has she not heard about Luke Skywalker, the war hero? Even if you don't believe the stories, it makes no sense to have not heard of them. If anyone in the galaxy knows about Jedi and that they in fact did exist, it should be Mandalorians.

 bbb wrote:
Here's a quick test. Ask a 20 year old person what they know about Margaret Thatcher, Mikhail Gorbachev, Pope John Paul II, and The Berlin Wall.

Not even vaguely the same.

Its much more akin to asking someone if they've never even heard of the Jesuits, if that order had existed for 10,000 years, and only recently been outlawed for about 25 years or so.
And you're asking around in places that didn't give two figs about the government doing the outlawing.

Its also not even asking the person on the street a detailed history, just if they've even heard of them at all.

---
For the Mandalorian specifically, he was orphaned by the opponents of the Jedi, the big robot army that they specifically lead armies against, and he's pretty obsessive about hating droids. He never, ever looked into people that fought the droid army? Really? Never doubted Imperial propaganda that he had no reason to care about as a cultural outsider (even raised by a culture that lost their home planet to the Empire)? Not once? Hard sell.
The Jedi existed within his personal lifetime. He might well hate them for not fighting off the droids that showed up on his home planet, but know nothing about them at all? Doubtful. Very, very doubtful.

Voss wrote:

 bbb wrote:
Here's a quick test. Ask a 20 year old person what they know about Margaret Thatcher, Mikhail Gorbachev, Pope John Paul II, and The Berlin Wall.

Not even vaguely the same.

Its much more akin to asking someone if they've never even heard of the Jesuits, if that order had existed for 10,000 years, and only been outlawed for about 25 years or so.
And you're asking around in places that didn't give two figs about the government doing the outlawing.

Its also not even asking the person on the street a detailed history, just if they've even heard of them at all.

I think you might underestimate the number of people who haven't heard of them.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 bbb wrote:
Here's a quick test. Ask a 20 year old person what they know about Margaret Thatcher, Mikhail Gorbachev, Pope John Paul II, and The Berlin Wall.

Ask a bounty hunter looking for... oh ex-Soviet officers what he knows about the Soviet Union.

Mando isn't some farm boy.

except in this case the Mando's NOT hunting Jedi. also yet again you're using modern times as an example.


Imagine if you would living in a world where the internet was shut down for civilian use 40 years ago. where the only news from the outside are people coming in from ships and the local news station that's basicly run by "Space Josuph Gobbels" supression of information would be REALLY easy. especially for something that was almost legendary already. there where after all, at their HEIGHT, only 10,000 jedi in the galaxy. that's "unicorn sighting" rarity levels in a galatic society

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 bbb wrote:
Here's a quick test. Ask a 20 year old person what they know about Margaret Thatcher, Mikhail Gorbachev, Pope John Paul II, and The Berlin Wall.

Ask a bounty hunter looking for... oh ex-Soviet officers what he knows about the Soviet Union.

Mando isn't some farm boy.

except in this case the Mando's NOT hunting Jedi. also yet again you're using modern times as an example.


Imagine if you would living in a world where the internet was shut down for civilian use 40 years ago. where the only news from the outside are people coming in from ships and the local news station that's basicly run by "Space Josuph Gobbels" supression of information would be REALLY easy. especially for something that was almost legendary already. there where after all, at their HEIGHT, only 10,000 jedi in the galaxy. that's "unicorn sighting" rarity levels in a galatic society

Jedi-Sith wars are the basis for galactic history. An 'internet' doesn't matter for this. [People got along just fine without it for most of history. They still knew things about the world, even if they were long ago and far away]
We're talking about the living memory of people being longer than the 'ban' on Jedi, and the Jedi being a fundamental cornerstone of the Republic.
"For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic."

This isn't some secret history, they're inextricably linked to the Galactic Republic that's existed for time out of mind.
Doubt their magic? Some of the deeds they're credited with? Sure. Absolutely. Complete galactic-wide ignorance because of very temporary Empire, that lasted for maybe a third of the lifespan of living people? Stuff and nonsense.

Voss wrote:
Jedi-Sith wars are the basis for galactic history.

They were, in the EU.

I don't think the current continuity has re-established much of that yet, other than the fact that some of the big-name Sith existed. And, again, that history only matters to those who were taught it. Most of the regular folk on the outer rim wouldn't have been.

"For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic."

Which is something that Obi Wan was explaining to Luke, as if it wasn't common knowledge.


Really, the problem here is that Lucas chose to have the Jedi still being too central to the Republic in the Prequels. If the 'thousand generations' had been in times gone by, and by the time of the Prequels the Jedi were a fallen, almost extinct order, everything that happens after in the timeline makes a lot more sense. Hell, how much more of an impact would the battle between Obi Wan and Anakin have if they were the last two Jedi Knights?

 insaniak wrote:

Voss wrote:
Jedi-Sith wars are the basis for galactic history.

They were, in the EU.

I don't think the current continuity has re-established much of that yet, other than the fact that some of the big-name Sith existed. And, again, that history only matters to those who were taught it. Most of the regular folk on the outer rim wouldn't have been.

As to the first, it doesn't matter. Those scenes and films were shot with that history in mind. I don't care about retcon land when they're bringing most of it back anyway. Long term Jedi/Sith conflict is all over Rebels (the webway network episodes particularly, even to the point of bring back elements of the hilariously dumb Force Demigods story), and super-immortal Palpatine in the new trilogy and feth knows what else.

As to that latter, that's a _very_ weird assumption. Why would middle and upper class people not be taught history?

"For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic."

Which is something that Obi Wan was explaining to Luke, as if it wasn't common knowledge.

No, that was something explained to the audience by way of the Callow Youth, a very basic film/story technique. Having a handy ignorant moppet to tell the audience basic facts you want them to know is a really easy gimmick.

Luke is also raised by an uncle with Something to Hide- 'Too much of his father in him'
You'll note that Luke just accepts it all as reasonable, objecting only when Obi-wan tries to get him to help.

Really, the problem here is that Lucas chose to have the Jedi still being too central to the Republic in the Prequels.

Nope, that was one of the few examples of Lucas actually remembering the story he originally created, and being consistent between the OT and the prequels.

If the 'thousand generations' had been in times gone by, and by the time of the Prequels the Jedi were a fallen, almost extinct order, everything that happens after in the timeline makes a lot more sense. Hell, how much more of an impact would the battle between Obi Wan and Anakin have if they were the last two Jedi Knights?

It would have mattered less. An order of two battling to death long after everyone else died out is functionally the same as two random idiots fighting for no reason whatsoever.

Voss wrote:

As to the first, it doesn't matter. Those scenes and films were shot with that history in mind. I don't care about retcon land when they're bringing most of it back anyway. Long term Jedi/Sith conflict is all over Rebels (the webway network episodes particularly, even to the point of bring back elements of the hilariously dumb Force Demigods story), and super-immortal Palpatine in the new trilogy and feth knows what else.

But that's just it - the easter eggs scattered here and there establish that the Jedi-Sith conflict has been going on for a while. It doesn't establish that it's something that was widely known about. In a galaxy where entire star systems can go 'missing' without anyone noticing, it's easy enough to imagine that the Jedi-Sith wars would have gone largely un-noticed by those not directly affected by them.

As to that latter, that's a _very_ weird assumption. Why would middle and upper class people not be taught history?

Because it doesn't matter?

My school history lessons covered only the very bare bones of the histories of countries other than my own, and ignored entirely a pretty large swathe of the world. Multiply that by the distance between star systems.

Nope, that was one of the few examples of Lucas actually remembering the story he originally created, and being consistent between the OT and the prequels.

Except it wasn't, because as discussed up the thread a ways, for the Jedi to have been that prominent in the Clone Wars, they should have been more widely known about afterwards given how many people were still around who remembered the Clone Wars.

It would have mattered less. An order of two battling to death long after everyone else died out is functionally the same as two random idiots fighting for no reason whatsoever.

It's not, though. It's two final champions fighting to determine whether their order might conceivably survive to be reborn, or be snuffed out entirely. Or, to put it another way, pretty much exactly the situation that is set up over the course of the original Trilogy as we're slowly told what (at that point) these Jedi folk were all about.

The end result has much more impact than the 'the Jedi Order is destroyed, except for all of the Jedi who are still running around right up until the time of the Rebellion, despite the original movies telling us that Luke is the last one...' situation that we got instead.

YMMV, obviously. Ultimately it doesn't matter... the prequels are what they are. I'm just spitballing here.

What if their numbers were reduced to no more than a couple of hundred? Hell, have a subplot that involves a death squad operating under Palpatine that is eliminating or indoctrinating force-sensitives.

 insaniak wrote:

Voss wrote:

As to the first, it doesn't matter. Those scenes and films were shot with that history in mind. I don't care about retcon land when they're bringing most of it back anyway. Long term Jedi/Sith conflict is all over Rebels (the webway network episodes particularly, even to the point of bring back elements of the hilariously dumb Force Demigods story), and super-immortal Palpatine in the new trilogy and feth knows what else.

But that's just it - the easter eggs scattered here and there establish that the Jedi-Sith conflict has been going on for a while. It doesn't establish that it's something that was widely known about. In a galaxy where entire star systems can go 'missing' without anyone noticing, it's easy enough to imagine that the Jedi-Sith wars would have gone largely un-noticed by those not directly affected by them.

Rebels had a whole pack of archaeologists and a pile of support staff researching a Jedi site. What you're saying is not compatible with what we're shown.

As to that latter, that's a _very_ weird assumption. Why would middle and upper class people not be taught history?

Because it doesn't matter?

My school history lessons covered only the very bare bones of the histories of countries other than my own, and ignored entirely a pretty large swathe of the world. Multiply that by the distance between star systems.

Then you have my condolences on your terrible history education. And I say that as an American.
Knowing nothing about the 'Great Hyperspace Wars' is akin to complete ignorance of the World Wars. Not the details, but that they ever happened.

Nope, that was one of the few examples of Lucas actually remembering the story he originally created, and being consistent between the OT and the prequels.

Except it wasn't, because as discussed up the thread a ways, for the Jedi to have been that prominent in the Clone Wars, they should have been more widely known about afterwards given how many people were still around who remembered the Clone Wars.

Given how _few_ 'normal people' we're introduced to in the OT (and afterwards), I don't know how you're coming to this conclusion.
Especially given how many people in the rebel alliance toss 'may the force be with you' around like a catch phrase. Leia says it in addressing normal troopers, not just among the protagonists. That suggests any given trooper Joe has at least some conception of what she's babbling about.

And later on (in various shows, books, games, etc) we _are_ introduced to uninvolved people who do know about them, so... I'm completely lost. Again what you're saying isn't what we're shown, regardless of what has been discussed 'upthread'

It would have mattered less. An order of two battling to death long after everyone else died out is functionally the same as two random idiots fighting for no reason whatsoever.

It's not, though. It's two final champions fighting to determine whether their order might conceivably survive to be reborn, or be snuffed out entirely. Or, to put it another way, pretty much exactly the situation that is set up over the course of the original Trilogy as we're slowly told what (at that point) these Jedi folk were all about.

 LordofHats wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, remember that Han, who was born during the Republic and Clone Wars era, hadn’t heard of The Force.

Which still doesn't make any sense.

I do find it bizarre how the franchise bounces back and forth on this issue. It needs to pick a lane, or create a more coherent pastiche.

There are times where it seems like the Force and the Jedi are common knowledge, if something not everyone believes is real (the movies mostly), and there are times where it's treated like no one in the galaxy has heard of it (some of the new and old EU material). Usually it's whatever is convenient for the narrative, and I feel like it makes the franchise seem unplanned and poorly coordinated rather than diverse or varied.

I found it pretty bad recently too. I don't find it that egregious that Han has heard of the Force but doesn't believe it. Someone could reasonably chalk it up to tall tales. But how has Mando never heard of the Jedi? Cause the start of season 1 makes it sound like he has some idea what they are, but the end of Season 1 makes it seem like he's never heard of them before and the wisened old Mandalorian forge lady treats them like a distant story in the year 9 ABY. Even the rebel lady doesn't know about them? How has she not heard about Luke Skywalker, the war hero? Even if you don't believe the stories, it makes no sense to have not heard of them. If anyone in the galaxy knows about Jedi and that they in fact did exist, it should be Mandalorians.

Yeah. Its like Star Wars want to be a setting kinda like 40k where there are many hundreds or thousands of years between important plot points so they can get "ancient lore plot point" check boxes, but at the same time all of the relevant plot points are actually happening within living memory of each other with a very very small group of people.

Now incongruousness like the average Joe on the street not knowing or believing in the Force can be explained. Its a big galaxy, not everybody has left their home planet, so one person might be totally clueless while another might have heard a bunch. But major recent galactic events are not something that could be so easily forgotten.

By making the Jedi so very high profile during the Clone War, it undermined the lack of public understanding of the Jedi during the Empire. To fix it, either the Jedi needed to be lower profile. Maybe operating in the shadows as covert operatives instead of generals. OR they needed the Clone War to be another 100+ years in the past and handwaive Obi-wan and Vader being around by just saying the Force users in general age much much slower and live much longer than normal.

The Mandalorians would still of course be telling tales of their past to the new generations. They would never forget the Jedi. Maybe the newer generations would see them more as mythical foes of the past and not have understanding of exactly what they're about, but they would at least have a frame of reference to who and what they are.

Chapter 10, eh?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Chapter 10, eh?

Spoiler:

Bit of a quieter episode, overall. But it spent time reenforcing Mando’s own slice of the galaxy, with call backs to Season 1.

And I do believe those bugs to be at least cousins of those from Chopper Base in Rebels?

I’m happy with that! Roll on next Friday!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

Then you have my condolences on your terrible history education. And I say that as an American.
Knowing nothing about the 'Great Hyperspace Wars' is akin to complete ignorance of the World Wars. Not the details, but that they ever happened.

.

WHAT great hyperspace war?
you mean the one from legends that is no longer part of canon?

So... let's just agree that Krykna should be exterminated the galaxy over.