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I don't understand the hatred of mortal wounds. By all means - turn smite into plasma guns shots. I don't care. You will probably bitch about them then too.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't understand the hatred of mortal wounds. By all means - turn smite into plasma guns shots. I don't care. You will probably bitch about them then too.

To be fair, its probably more to do with the psychic phase. Too many armies lack adequate protection, and smite is too easy to cast. Even with the cumulative modifiers you are probably going to get at least 3 off.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
GW just needs to straight move away from almost any mechanic they put into AOS, it’s just a terrible rules system on almost every conceivable level.

Morale phase, psychic/ magic phase, counter-intuitive dice roll modifier mechanics, mortal wounds, removal of USR’s.

All of these things are bringing down the game.

Smite spam would be reined in by bringing back the power dice/dispel dice pool for the psychic phase. Not the 7th Ed. Mechanics though, that was worse than what we have now.

Considering its popularity, more so with AOS 2.0 that's never happening. They are seeing what is working and well liked with AOS and implementing those parts into 40k.

Smite spams a problem, not nearly as much as a problem as command points and allies are.

20% allies rule from AOS would do 40k some good. Wouldn't fix the guard detachment issue but max of 400 points of allies in a 2k game is a step in the right direction.

Is smite more difficult to cast than just, for example, firing a 45pt model with an auto hitting lascannon that forces vehicles to explode?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Is smite more difficult to cast than just, for example, firing a 45pt model with an auto hitting lascannon that forces vehicles to explode?

Yes? You still have to wound with a traktor cannon, there are still saves and you only get the damage buff against vehicles that can fly.
Do you get saves against smite? Does smite have to wound?

Have there been any new leaks from CA at this point?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't understand the hatred of mortal wounds. By all means - turn smite into plasma guns shots. I don't care. You will probably bitch about them then too.

To be fair, its probably more to do with the psychic phase. Too many armies lack adequate protection, and smite is too easy to cast. Even with the cumulative modifiers you are probably going to get at least 3 off.

And what should each of my 120 to 160+ point psykers be doing with it's only 18 to 24" weapon that can occasionally cause them to receive mortal wounds for risking it?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't understand the hatred of mortal wounds. By all means - turn smite into plasma guns shots. I don't care. You will probably bitch about them then too.

To be fair, its probably more to do with the psychic phase. Too many armies lack adequate protection, and smite is too easy to cast. Even with the cumulative modifiers you are probably going to get at least 3 off.

Okay so lets say that's 3 TS exaulteds - that's 360 points.

Would you rather be stomped on by a gallant for 15 ws2 str 8 ap-2 d3 damage attacks? The perception of mortal wounds is vastly overblown by the fact it just seems like you are picking up models and are helpless (which in the case of a TS cultist horde you really are because you can't get to what is hurting you) I think it's really about character targeting. That is the source of the hate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Is smite more difficult to cast than just, for example, firing a 45pt model with an auto hitting lascannon that forces vehicles to explode?

Tractors are OP - smite is just good.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Have there been any new leaks from CA at this point?

Nope. Nothing since last Thursday or so. The T'au leaks were apparently faked, so that leaves just the initial leak and the changes to Land Raiders for actual reveals.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Is smite more difficult to cast than just, for example, firing a 45pt model with an auto hitting lascannon that forces vehicles to explode?

Yes? You still have to wound with a traktor cannon, there are still saves and you only get the damage buff against vehicles that can fly.
Do you get saves against smite? Does smite have to wound?

You have to cast it, you have to be in range of something worth hitting, you have to roll for between one and three damage, and you have to pay the Psyker tax on the model you're using (in many scenarios).

Let's just use a Disc Herald, as a basic example, and around 100pts.

I can, as Daemons, roll for smite. I need a 5+ then I have to position myself within 18" of a target worth smiting. Most times this is just going to be a screen, at which point those 100pts would have been better as almost anything else.

This argument appears fruitless, but let's not treat smite like it's some big boogieman that is easy to do, when at this point in 8th basically every army has "easy" ways to wound things, and at this point many of them are cheaper and most times easier to use.

It's good. It's not insane.

Were the Tau rumors ever actually proved fake? I thought the person that posted the obvious fake was different to the one who posted the original Tau leaks?

I figured they just posted to show how easy it would be to fake them, but it doesn't prove they are fake.

Either way, ignore my previous rant on Smite, it's neither directly on topic nor important.

As far as I know, all of the recent Leaks are fake. All we can do is speculate atm.

IanVanCheese wrote:Were the Tau rumors ever actually proved fake? I thought the person that posted the obvious fake was different to the one who posted the original Tau leaks?

I figured they just posted to show how easy it would be to fake them, but it doesn't prove they are fake.

I thought the original source of them at B&C recanted. I could be wrong about that though.

Darsath wrote:As far as I know, all of the recent Leaks are fake. All we can do is speculate atm.

The initial leak (picture in the OP) came from a source that has literally never been less than 100% accurate, so I think we can treat those as fairly certain.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
GW just needs to straight move away from almost any mechanic they put into AOS, it’s just a terrible rules system on almost every conceivable level.

Morale phase, psychic/ magic phase, counter-intuitive dice roll modifier mechanics, mortal wounds, removal of USR’s.

All of these things are bringing down the game.

Smite spam would be reined in by bringing back the power dice/dispel dice pool for the psychic phase. Not the 7th Ed. Mechanics though, that was worse than what we have now.

Interestingly, all of these things you purport as bringing down the game are also the same things that brought so many back.

At least there's still 30k for you if you like all that stuff.

Smite spam is strong, yes, but, it costs so much in terms of points.

A list I’m contemplating for Heat 3 has Ahriman on a Disc, 2 DPs with Wings, 1 Exalted on Disc and 2 Shamans in it.

Sure, I can put out a lot of MWs with those 6 units, but, it also costs me 847 points out of my 1750. Throw in the required Tzaangor bomb for 220 points, I’m now left with 683 points to spend on the rest of the army – 603 if you default to 2 units of Cultists for a Battalion.

Oh, and, when running the Tzaangor bomb you’re likely using 4 of your 11 casts on Weaver, Glamour, Gaze of Fate and possibly Prescience to buff the bomb up. After that, you’re looking at 6 smites and then 1 other power, for a grand total of maybe 21 MW IF all D3s are 3.

However, in retaliation, all you really have to do is kill the Tzaangor bomb (or at least drop it to a handful of models) and then move around to directly target the characters. Most lists can do this, especially if they get first turn, leaving them in a position to weather turns 1-3 and essentially win in turns 3-6.

IanVanCheese wrote:
Were the Tau rumors ever actually proved fake? I thought the person that posted the obvious fake was different to the one who posted the original Tau leaks?

I figured they just posted to show how easy it would be to fake them, but it doesn't prove they are fake.

Yes, the original source from B&C apologized - they weren't reall, they were shared by a member in a separate Tau community and he pushed them out as he found them. Was supposed to be an inside troll job of one person poking fun at another and it blew up, from what I can gather.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Either way, ignore my previous rant on Smite, it's neither directly on topic nor important.

It is both relevant and important.

Lemondish wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Were the Tau rumors ever actually proved fake? I thought the person that posted the obvious fake was different to the one who posted the original Tau leaks?

I figured they just posted to show how easy it would be to fake them, but it doesn't prove they are fake.

Yes, the original source from B&C apologized - they weren't reall, they were shared by a member in a separate Tau community and he pushed them out as he found them. Was supposed to be an inside troll job of one person poking fun at another and it blew up, from what I can gather.

Fair enough, sad times. They looked like solid changes.

Interestingly, all of these things you purport as bringing down the game are also the same things that brought so many back.

At least there's still 30k for you if you like all that stuff.

Actually, I think it was more GW’s openness with the community and the destruction of the 7th edition that got people’s interest piqued. AOS was still in its first edition when 8th came out and people still thought it was utter gak. 2nd ed. Hasn’t changed my mind either.

People want to see GW do well, myself included. I didn’t like 7th ed. Any more than anyone else here, but truthfully 40k has always been a bad game, and 8th hasn’t changed that. They’ve just doubled down on the ridiculously stupid and immersion breaking rules of AOS rather than the mind-numbingly convoluted rules of 7th.

All I’m doing is calling it what it is. Bad. I’ve said that they made some good changes with 8, but for every positive change, they made a negative one.

The stuff I listed above is bad, and I don’t know how anyone can look at those rules with a straight face and call them good.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Interestingly, all of these things you purport as bringing down the game are also the same things that brought so many back.

At least there's still 30k for you if you like all that stuff.

Actually, I think it was more GW’s openness with the community and the destruction of the 7th edition that got people’s interest piqued. AOS was still in its first edition when 8th came out and people still thought it was utter gak. 2nd ed. Hasn’t changed my mind either.

People want to see GW do well, myself included. I didn’t like 7th ed. Any more than anyone else here, but truthfully 40k has always been a bad game, and 8th hasn’t changed that. They’ve just doubled down on the ridiculously stupid and immersion breaking rules of AOS rather than the mind-numbingly convoluted rules of 7th.

All I’m doing is calling it what it is. Bad. I’ve said that they made some good changes with 8, but for every positive change, they made a negative one.

The stuff I listed above is bad, and I don’t know how anyone can look at those rules with a straight face and call them good.

It's called 'different strokes for different folks' but with sales climbing and tournament attendance swelling dramatically across the U.S. I think the evidence strongly points to people liking them.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Interestingly, all of these things you purport as bringing down the game are also the same things that brought so many back.

At least there's still 30k for you if you like all that stuff.

Actually, I think it was more GW’s openness with the community and the destruction of the 7th edition that got people’s interest piqued. AOS was still in its first edition when 8th came out and people still thought it was utter gak. 2nd ed. Hasn’t changed my mind either.

People want to see GW do well, myself included. I didn’t like 7th ed. Any more than anyone else here, but truthfully 40k has always been a bad game, and 8th hasn’t changed that. They’ve just doubled down on the ridiculously stupid and immersion breaking rules of AOS rather than the mind-numbingly convoluted rules of 7th.

All I’m doing is calling it what it is. Bad. I’ve said that they made some good changes with 8, but for every positive change, they made a negative one.

The stuff I listed above is bad, and I don’t know how anyone can look at those rules with a straight face and call them good.

Maybe for you. As someone that ran a local gaming club prior to 8th dropping, and then coordinated the start of 4 more since 8th arrived, the 120 people closely related to these clubs have been pretty vocal as to what interested them.

Sure, anecdotal, but my experience has suggested that a vast majority of the people in my local area weren't drawn back or interested simply because GW became more vocal - they aren't the type to be following WarCom or Facebook posts anyway. They just like the simpler ruleset that produces more dynamic, cinematic experiences (to quote a few of our members).

8th has been a success. I don't think that can be argued.

The only reason my local group isn't playing 7th again is that we like a lot of the new models and armies. I mean, I couldn't play my Custodes in 7th. A lot of the new Nurgle daemon stuff wouldn't be usable for our Daemon player.

That said, when Malevolence lands we're very strongly considering giving up on 8th for a while and doing Heresy since our Daemons player will have options finally (He's the reason we haven't made the move already... The rest of us at least have Marine armies we could use, if not straight up 30k ones like me)

I don't get what people dislike about the psychic phase in 8th. It's very straightforward and I've yet to see a game that was actually decided in the psychic phase. (Yeah, I don't know people with Tzeentch armies...) You throw out some buffs here and there but there's nothing overpowered in it and your opponent can react if he/she has a psyker - or not.
I saw batreps about WHFB 8th. edition and got to say the psychic phase there was the most boring and fiddly thing I've ever seen, but still deciding games and making blocks of armies disappear without doing anything. I don't want that in 40K.

Anecdotal, but the main draws for me were GWs new approach to customer communication AND the simplified ruleset.

8th has its flaws, but its still easily the best edition of 40K so far imo.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I don't get what people dislike about the psychic phase in 8th. It's very straightforward and I've yet to see a game that was actually decided in the psychic phase. (Yeah, I don't know people with Tzeentch armies...) You throw out some buffs here and there but there's nothing overpowered in it and your opponent can react if he/she has a psyker - or not.
I saw batreps about WHFB 8th. edition and got to say the psychic phase there was the most boring and fiddly thing I've ever seen, but still deciding games and making blocks of armies disappear without doing anything. I don't want that in 40K.

It scales horribly, mostly.

Combo randomised powers with a shared but limited resource pool and you get a recipe for “battery” units that only exist to allow a handful of key powers to go off. I can assure you that even when a psyker-Heavy army was well optimised, it wasn’t remotely fun to play.

8th ed psychic is pretty much worst scaling psychic ever. Actually everything in 8th scales badly both up and down.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Glad to see that (hopefully) GW saw sense and instead of increasing points costs of popular choices instead decreased the costs of unpopular choices.

Glad to see my wish for cheaper Custodian wardens and Allarus terminators was granted. The big one though if true is Trajaan Valoris being 175pts rather than 250pts. That is a MASSIVE reduction but sorely needed as he simply was too expensive to take.

Also good to see named characters getting cheaper. I haven't seen any apart from Rowboat Girlyman twice since I started playing 8th.

I'd rather have overperformers being brought back into line, 8th edition already suffers enough from damage creep. Just reducing costs across the board makes every army sans Custodes/ IK a horde army, and that's not what I'd like to see.

Anyhow, if all these rumors are true that has only furthered my interest in letting Custodes represent my SW infantry on the tabletop for a properly elite feel. It just feels bad and wrong to see a Grey Hunter squad be obliterated by a random 10-Guardsmen squad that got FRFSRF.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't understand the hatred of mortal wounds. By all means - turn smite into plasma guns shots. I don't care. You will probably bitch about them then too.

To be fair, its probably more to do with the psychic phase. Too many armies lack adequate protection, and smite is too easy to cast. Even with the cumulative modifiers you are probably going to get at least 3 off.

Okay so lets say that's 3 TS exaulteds - that's 360 points.

Would you rather be stomped on by a gallant for 15 ws2 str 8 ap-2 d3 damage attacks? The perception of mortal wounds is vastly overblown by the fact it just seems like you are picking up models and are helpless (which in the case of a TS cultist horde you really are because you can't get to what is hurting you) I think it's really about character targeting. That is the source of the hate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Is smite more difficult to cast than just, for example, firing a 45pt model with an auto hitting lascannon that forces vehicles to explode?

Tractors are OP - smite is just good.

So because Knights are wonky, we leave the mechanic as is?

You're not making any sense.

Smite spam is generally an issue because it is the only power that can be cast multiple times and by any psyker. Maybe they should just add a couple more generic powers that could be cast instead, like a generic buff and he ability.

CP farms, maybe swap the baselines around. 5 cp for battleforged, 3 for a battalion. Keep brigade at 12.