Crimson Devil wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 kastelen wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
What gives you the impression the Spears of the Emperor would get their own chapter tactics, let alone characters?

Apparently a new BL novel/bundle comes with chapter tactics for them. From memory it's something like 2 attacks on every 6 to hit in melee.

What is the source of this information?

The Limited Edition version of the "Spear of the Emperor" by Aaron W Dembski-Bowden has a card with the chapter tactic and a decal sheet.

 Danarc wrote:
Why the SPEAR of the emperor have a TRIDENT as symbol?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So what the Goffs have except Marine melee is bad. Wonderful.

At least it's something for a random Chapter, which IS cool I guess.

kombatwombat wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Three unique Characters, their own Chapter Tactics, Relics, Warlord Traits, and their own unique Troop choice. What the hell else do Templars really need? That is more than literally every other C:SM Chapter besides the Ultramarines (who DON'T have their own exclusive Troop choice).

A Codex?

Aside from Squats, Templars are the only faction to have their own Codex - for multiple editions, no less - and then have it taken away from them and not returned. (Sisters too arguably, but theirs is coming, and mayyyyyybe the Lost and the Damned depending on your view of the Renegades and Heretics army list.) Templars getting crushed into the main Marine Codex snuffed the light out of the faction; played as befits their fluff, they simply don’t work as an army and won’t so long as they’re a close combat army in a book balanced around shooting. It’s akin to a close combat Tau or Guard army, or a shooting Daemon army - theoretically possible, but not mechanically viable while they’re shackled to a Codex that is counter to their play style.

If, at the start of 6th Edition, GW decided to flesh out the Templars Codex the way they had the Blood Angels and Dark Angels books, they would be a playable faction. Indeed, they were the better candidate for it - they thumb their noses at the Codex Astartes, which offered GW plenty of leeway to make a faction as different from the main Codex as Space Wolves are. Instead, they took a Codex-compliant Chapter with a special berserker unit, and another Codex-compliant Chapter with a mounted Second Company, and decided that those were distinct enough from the Codex Astartes to not be included in the Astartes Codex. Whereas Templars could have grown organically into a unique faction due to their nature as non-Codex Compliant, instead GW had to contrive units for BA/DA to justify the existence of a separate Codex.

And it’s not as if Templars would struggle to sell! They’re consistently jostling with Space Wolves for position as fan favourite Chapter, despite the handicaps of not having their own book anymore and having the life sucked out of their rules.

I know it’ll never happen, but GW is leaving money on the table by not giving Black Templars their own book.

Neronoxx wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So what the Goffs have except Marine melee is bad. Wonderful.

At least it's something for a random Chapter, which IS cool I guess.

It's not bad on reivers really.
Primaris just need 1-2 dedicated melee units and it'd be a solid trait.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Reivers are a whole other issue. The fact they lack at least AP-1 on their blades is a sin.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Reivers are a whole other issue. The fact they lack at least AP-1 on their blades is a sin.

Well, it would be kinda weird if mere knives had AP while a chainsword doesn't. That the Sergeant cannot take a power sword while the Intercessor sergeant can is the real travesty (neither kit comes with the bit but the sword from the upgrade sprue fits either.)

Kdash wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Reivers are a whole other issue. The fact they lack at least AP-1 on their blades is a sin.

Well, it would be kinda weird if mere knives had AP while a chainsword doesn't. That the Sergeant cannot take a power sword while the Intercessor sergeant can is the real travesty (neither kit comes with the bit but the sword from the upgrade sprue fits either.)

I've always envisioned them having "power combat blades" personally. Weaker than a power sword, but more useful than a bog standard knife.

kombatwombat wrote:
Templars getting crushed into the main Marine Codex snuffed the light out of the faction; played as befits their fluff, they simply don’t work as an army and won’t so long as they’re a close combat army in a book balanced around shooting. It’s akin to a close combat Tau or Guard army, or a shooting Daemon army - theoretically possible, but not mechanically viable while they’re shackled to a Codex that is counter to their play style.

If, at the start of 6th Edition, GW decided to flesh out the Templars Codex the way they had the Blood Angels and Dark Angels books, they would be a playable faction. Indeed, they were the better candidate for it - they thumb their noses at the Codex Astartes, which offered GW plenty of leeway to make a faction as different from the main Codex as Space Wolves are.

 Irbis wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:
Templars getting crushed into the main Marine Codex snuffed the light out of the faction; played as befits their fluff, they simply don’t work as an army and won’t so long as they’re a close combat army in a book balanced around shooting. It’s akin to a close combat Tau or Guard army, or a shooting Daemon army - theoretically possible, but not mechanically viable while they’re shackled to a Codex that is counter to their play style.

Funny you say that, I have seen multiple CC oriented Catachan armies, and they somehow work. Maybe, just maybe, it's not the book that is the problem?

Also, funny that again, I used to play BT in 4th edition. What essential unit, pray tell, was cut to make them no longer work? Because somehow, I seem to recall they not only lost nothing, they gained a lot of units with the transition. Is choice bad now?

If, at the start of 6th Edition, GW decided to flesh out the Templars Codex the way they had the Blood Angels and Dark Angels books, they would be a playable faction. Indeed, they were the better candidate for it - they thumb their noses at the Codex Astartes, which offered GW plenty of leeway to make a faction as different from the main Codex as Space Wolves are.

Funny that (again again), I read their 4th edition fluff, and I was for years puzzled from where the baseless fanon nonsense about BT was coming from (my favourite is their numbers, coming from summing every single crusade on a map, and the fact some of these crusades were hundreds if not thousands of years apart was only teeny tiny inconvenient detail that didn't stop the fanon train in the slightest). I agree with casvalremdeikun, they need literally nothing except maybe new upgrade sprue as no matter how you look, they are completely insignificant force barely larger than a single codex chapter (with the abuse of the 10th company loophole being pretty simple and elegant recent explanation for their slightly larger number), that unlike all other 'big' chapters doesn't even have a single successor, never mind dozens or hundreds of them...

kombatwombat wrote:
Christ I hope they don’t, there’s already more than enough unique Chapters crying out for some love (Black Templars...)

 BlaxicanX wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:
Christ I hope they don’t, there’s already more than enough unique Chapters crying out for some love (Black Templars...)

How many of those unique chapters are all-Primaris chapters?

Remember, Primaris marines are the future of Space Marines going forward.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Oh for the love of god. power creep cries over things that don't even exist yet, and might never.

The current rumored tactics they got is 6s to hit in CC gets 2 hits. this is BAD. this is arguably the WORST chapter tactics.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Oh for the love of god. power creep cries over things that don't even exist yet, and might never.

The current rumored tactics they got is 6s to hit in CC gets 2 hits. this is BAD. this is arguably the WORST chapter tactics.

Isn't that just melee tesla? How is that bad?
I mean, its not game breaking, but I don't see how its the worst.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Oh for the love of god. power creep cries over things that don't even exist yet, and might never.

The current rumored tactics they got is 6s to hit in CC gets 2 hits. this is BAD. this is arguably the WORST chapter tactics.

 fraser1191 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Oh for the love of god. power creep cries over things that don't even exist yet, and might never.

The current rumored tactics they got is 6s to hit in CC gets 2 hits. this is BAD. this is arguably the WORST chapter tactics.

Imagine over charging hellblasters getting 4ish more plasma hits because they have reroll all hits. Imagine the overwatch - with reroll all hits you'd be overwatching better than tau sept.

Isn't that just melee tesla? How is that bad?
I mean, its not game breaking, but I don't see how its the worst.

Well if this is an all Primaris chapter anybody genuinely interested in the chapter probably won't buy normal marines. Plus whose buying reivers for their melee prowess?

I know I bought them thinking they would be Fast attack

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Oh for the love of god. power creep cries over things that don't even exist yet, and might never.

The current rumored tactics they got is 6s to hit in CC gets 2 hits. this is BAD. this is arguably the WORST chapter tactics.

Well - this is REALLY bad because primaris options are all shooting oriented. If it were shooting it would be the best chapter tactic bar none. I was referring to the power creep in other codex. Plus that is just a rumor - rumors often turn out wrong.

 kastelen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Oh for the love of god. power creep cries over things that don't even exist yet, and might never.

The current rumored tactics they got is 6s to hit in CC gets 2 hits. this is BAD. this is arguably the WORST chapter tactics.

Well - this is REALLY bad because primaris options are all shooting oriented. If it were shooting it would be the best chapter tactic bar none. I was referring to the power creep in other codex. Plus that is just a rumor - rumors often turn out wrong.

It's not a rumour though, it's been confirmed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The thing is...You can already do an all space marine chapter and pick any chapter tactic from the codex you want.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The thing is...You can already do an all space marine chapter and pick any chapter tactic from the codex you want.

Yes, but that's not an official chapter- that's a Your Headcanon chapter. GW wants an OFFICIAL all-Primaris chapter that they can market Primaris marines with and use as a posterboy, just like they've been doing with UM for all these years.

You need to understand the direction the wind is blowing. GW is (eventually) going to give us a Primaris chapter master, both a named character variant and generic, leading Primaris captains (named and generic) who belong to companies of Primaris LT's (named and generic), sergeants (named and generic) and line infantry and vehicles. And models for every single one of them, of course. They can't market that stuff, especially the named characters, without a unique and officially created All-Primaris chapter.

 kastelen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Oh for the love of god. power creep cries over things that don't even exist yet, and might never.

The current rumored tactics they got is 6s to hit in CC gets 2 hits. this is BAD. this is arguably the WORST chapter tactics.

Well - this is REALLY bad because primaris options are all shooting oriented. If it were shooting it would be the best chapter tactic bar none. I was referring to the power creep in other codex. Plus that is just a rumor - rumors often turn out wrong.

It's not a rumour though, it's been confirmed.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The thing is...You can already do an all space marine chapter and pick any chapter tactic from the codex you want.

Yes, but that's not an official chapter- that's a Your Headcanon chapter. GW wants an OFFICIAL all-Primaris chapter that they can market Primaris marines with and use as a posterboy, just like they've been doing with UM for all these years.

You need to understand the direction the wind is blowing. GW is (eventually) going to give us a Primaris chapter master, both a named character variant and generic, leading Primaris captains (named and generic) who belong to companies of Primaris LT's (named and generic), sergeants (named and generic) and line infantry and vehicles. And models for every single one of them, of course. They can't market that stuff, especially the named characters, without a unique and officially created All-Primaris chapter.

Does your entire argument fall apart if I tell you that the Emperor's Spears aren't "all Primaris"? They were created at the same time as the Celestial Lions and Star Scorpions.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The thing is...You can already do an all space marine chapter and pick any chapter tactic from the codex you want.

Yes, but that's not an official chapter- that's a Your Headcanon chapter. GW wants an OFFICIAL all-Primaris chapter that they can market Primaris marines with and use as a posterboy, just like they've been doing with UM for all these years.

You need to understand the direction the wind is blowing. GW is (eventually) going to give us a Primaris chapter master, both a named character variant and generic, leading Primaris captains (named and generic) who belong to companies of Primaris LT's (named and generic), sergeants (named and generic) and line infantry and vehicles. And models for every single one of them, of course. They can't market that stuff, especially the named characters, without a unique and officially created All-Primaris chapter.

Lemondish wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The thing is...You can already do an all space marine chapter and pick any chapter tactic from the codex you want.

Yes, but that's not an official chapter- that's a Your Headcanon chapter. GW wants an OFFICIAL all-Primaris chapter that they can market Primaris marines with and use as a posterboy, just like they've been doing with UM for all these years.

You need to understand the direction the wind is blowing. GW is (eventually) going to give us a Primaris chapter master, both a named character variant and generic, leading Primaris captains (named and generic) who belong to companies of Primaris LT's (named and generic), sergeants (named and generic) and line infantry and vehicles. And models for every single one of them, of course. They can't market that stuff, especially the named characters, without a unique and officially created All-Primaris chapter.

Does your entire argument fall apart if I tell you that the Emperor's Spears aren't "all Primaris"? They were created at the same time as the Celestial Lions and Star Scorpions.

No, because the Emperor's Spears aren't on Vigilus.

The ADB book and the rumours surrounding the all Primaris chapter are unrelated.

Voss wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The thing is...You can already do an all space marine chapter and pick any chapter tactic from the codex you want.

Yes, but that's not an official chapter- that's a Your Headcanon chapter. GW wants an OFFICIAL all-Primaris chapter that they can market Primaris marines with and use as a posterboy, just like they've been doing with UM for all these years.

You need to understand the direction the wind is blowing. GW is (eventually) going to give us a Primaris chapter master, both a named character variant and generic, leading Primaris captains (named and generic) who belong to companies of Primaris LT's (named and generic), sergeants (named and generic) and line infantry and vehicles. And models for every single one of them, of course. They can't market that stuff, especially the named characters, without a unique and officially created All-Primaris chapter.

They've managed to market it all so far without one.

i'm not clear why Primaris purity would be required (or even useful)

 Arachnofiend wrote:

The facts of a new chapter getting chapter tactics are directly related to the ADB book. The "rumors" of GW pushing a primaris chapter as the new of the Space Marines is salt and speculation.