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 Togusa wrote:

I always thought a good compromise for this would have been to give catachans S3, but give them +1 to wound against all infantry targets.

That's better than +1 S a lot of the time...

+1 S on charge might have been acceptable.

 Togusa wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I am a bit confused about what will be in CA and what in the Vigilus book... and was there some cityfight book coming as well, or was was thus just a section in one of the two?


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Ice_can wrote:

So a sister in power armour isn't string enough to be S4 but a Catachan naked is strong enough to equal a marine in Power armour?

S4 guardsmen shouldn't have ever happened...

I always thought a good compromise for this would have been to give catachans S3, but give them +1 to wound against all infantry targets.

That's maybe one of the worst ideas I've read. Ever. They'd be wounding Custodes on a 4+.

 Crimson wrote:
S4 guardsmen shouldn't have ever happened...

To be fair, it's mechanically lesser bonus than just giving them +1 to melee damage rolls to represent their greater strength, or giving them damage rerolls, so it kinda works.

Unless you have better idea how to represent Catachans being one of the best regiments in melee without making them OP?

 Galef wrote:
But yes, it makes sense that a person lacking as much testosterone and NOT raised on a DeathWorld would be less strong even in Power Armour
It is not a stretch to belief that a male that is not weighed down by armour and is fit due to a constant struggle to survive each day would be stronger that an female in heavy armour (even augmented) that likely splits her time between training and praying, rather than trying to outright survive every second of every day.

Um, no. Just no.

Freak of genetic lottery, abnormally strong sergeant Harker is capable of lifting a heavy bolter and a single belt of ammunition.

Every single Sister can not only lift the heavy bolter, but also longer, armored ammo belt and backpack with small fusion plant.

Which one sounds stronger to you?

 Irbis wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
S4 guardsmen shouldn't have ever happened...

To be fair, it's mechanically lesser bonus than just giving them +1 to melee damage rolls to represent their greater strength, or giving them damage rerolls, so it kinda works.

Unless you have better idea how to represent Catachans being one of the best regiments in melee without making them OP?

I suggested +1 S on charge only. The old Furious Charge.

Yet another reason for marines to gain +1 wound; then sisters can have their old statline and that makes a great deal more sense than the current scenario

zamerion wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/30/the-three-armed-gunfightergw-homepage-post-3/

Other vigilius text. And again arbites.. interesting..

“Arbites enforcer” is just trolling :-D

 Irbis wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
S4 guardsmen shouldn't have ever happened...

To be fair, it's mechanically lesser bonus than just giving them +1 to melee damage rolls to represent their greater strength, or giving them damage rerolls, so it kinda works.

Unless you have better idea how to represent Catachans being one of the best regiments in melee without making them OP?

 Galef wrote:
But yes, it makes sense that a person lacking as much testosterone and NOT raised on a DeathWorld would be less strong even in Power Armour
It is not a stretch to belief that a male that is not weighed down by armour and is fit due to a constant struggle to survive each day would be stronger that an female in heavy armour (even augmented) that likely splits her time between training and praying, rather than trying to outright survive every second of every day.

Um, no. Just no.

Freak of genetic lottery, abnormally strong sergeant Harker is capable of lifting a heavy bolter and a single belt of ammunition.

Every single Sister can not only lift the heavy bolter, but also longer, armored ammo belt and backpack with small fusion plant.

Which one sounds stronger to you?

Sisters have power armour, that's why they can carry heavy weapons the way they do Harker is just a beast of a man

 Crimson wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
S4 guardsmen shouldn't have ever happened...

To be fair, it's mechanically lesser bonus than just giving them +1 to melee damage rolls to represent their greater strength, or giving them damage rerolls, so it kinda works.

Unless you have better idea how to represent Catachans being one of the best regiments in melee without making them OP?

I suggested +1 S on charge only. The old Furious Charge.

Or at minimum simply the first round of combat. That's a MUCH better compromise.

 Crimson wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

I always thought a good compromise for this would have been to give catachans S3, but give them +1 to wound against all infantry targets.

That's better than +1 S a lot of the time...

+1 S on charge might have been acceptable.

Wouldn't an extra attack equal out?

So are there any more rumors then whats on the first post, or just 30 pages of discussion about IG?

 djones520 wrote:
So are there any more rumors then whats on the first post, or just 30 pages of discussion about IG?

Uh the latter

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
So are there any more rumors then whats on the first post, or just 30 pages of discussion about IG?

Uh the latter

Mixed with "why point changes aren't good enough for Space Marines". Which is also in three other threads or something I like that. I honestly can't tell which thread I'm in half the time anymore because they all have the same conversation.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
You kind of have to accept that the nuances between different factions are going to be lost when it comes to stats.

A-frikking-men!
I think an old Kill Team reference to specialists applies: Every unit has individual members that have some kind of special skill, but at the scale of a normal 40K those special skills do not have a great enough impact on the overall battle to merit rules. But in KT, the scale is smaller and those skill make a difference, thus they get rules.

A Sister in PA is indeed stronger than a Guardsman, but not be enough for it to merit the bump to S4.
If the game used d12s instead of d6s, we might see that scale a bit better, but for simplicity's sake, thank the god-Emperor we use d6s

-

I honestly think D8 or 10 is the best compromise.

I don't, go roll 50 of those dice and tell me how much fun it is pulling hits without knocking dice over and finding cocked dice everywhere. At some point people need realize the rules service the models not the other way around. You don't need 10 variations of guardsmen with unique stats to justify all the cool kits they can produce. If anything the opposite approach is needed, they should be reducing the variation in rules for certain units.

I mean it isn't hard to count the dice, and if you're that concerned about crooked dice just roll on a separate flat service. I really don't sympathize with your plight here.

Ha ha, how on earth is it my plight? It isn't a thing and thankfully never will be.

Audustum wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
So are there any more rumors then whats on the first post, or just 30 pages of discussion about IG?

Uh the latter

Mixed with "why point changes aren't good enough for Space Marines". Which is also in three other threads or something I like that. I honestly can't tell which thread I'm in half the time anymore because they all have the same conversation.

I'm flat out guilty of continuing that topic too.

Not to dwell too much more on the boltgun and such... but isn't the Godwyn-de'az pattern much smaller than the traditional Astartes weapon? As in... they had to make a pattern specific for the Sororitas because they weren't super-human sized? Not sure about their heavy bolter, and even with the slimmed down Godwyn-de'az, they still take advantage of the extra strength offered by the power armor to 1) lift the darn thing, and 2) not get their arms ripped off by the recoil, or something equally 40kish.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Not to dwell too much more on the boltgun and such... but isn't the Godwyn-de'az pattern much smaller than the traditional Astartes weapon? As in... they had to make a pattern specific for the Sororitas because they weren't super-human sized? Not sure about their heavy bolter, and even with the slimmed down Godwyn-de'az, they still take advantage of the extra strength offered by the power armor to 1) lift the darn thing, and 2) not get their arms ripped off by the recoil, or something equally 40kish.

Isn't the Godwyn-De'az also lauded as one of the best bolter weapons?

Regardless, Here's to hoping tomorrow brings some sort of leak or tidbit from GW about something coming. I know someone in the earlier part of the thread said we wouldn't likely hear anything about CA until next week because of how preorders and release dates work with GW. Or some such.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
So are there any more rumors then whats on the first post, or just 30 pages of discussion about IG?

Uh the latter

Mixed with "why point changes aren't good enough for Space Marines". Which is also in three other threads or something I like that. I honestly can't tell which thread I'm in half the time anymore because they all have the same conversation.

I'm flat out guilty of continuing that topic too.

Yeah but you get an Exalt.

 Irbis wrote:

Every single Sister can not only lift the heavy bolter, but also longer, armored ammo belt and backpack with small fusion plant.

Which one sounds stronger to you?

Lift and carry isn't the same as 'hit harder', which is what 40K Strength is used for. It could well be that Sororitas power armor has limits on the acceleration of its movement, meaning great lifting and carrying power, but no real advantage in swinging weapons quickly (F = M x A, after all).

the combat heels on their armour provide a less stable platform from which to make a physical strike, so they can't bring as much of the power of their armour to bear compared to a space marine in his sensible flat boots

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
the combat heels on their armour provide a less stable platform from which to make a physical strike, so they can't bring as much of the power of their armour to bear compared to a space marine in his sensible flat boots

You mean the combat heels they don't have, except for that one sister? Those non-existent heels?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
the combat heels on their armour provide a less stable platform from which to make a physical strike, so they can't bring as much of the power of their armour to bear compared to a space marine in his sensible flat boots

You mean the combat heels they don't have, except for that one sister? Those non-existent heels?

I think he was ribbing on that certain crowd and wasn't being serious.

Sarcasm is lost and we should all wear flats, a tie and be in a drone line.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
the combat heels on their armour provide a less stable platform from which to make a physical strike, so they can't bring as much of the power of their armour to bear compared to a space marine in his sensible flat boots

You mean the combat heels they don't have, except for that one sister? Those non-existent heels?

Yeah, I wish this gak would stop. There is ONE model in the ENTIRE RANGE that has EVER had high heels. Sisters wear combat boots, just like marines do.

Greyfax has heels but she': NOT a Sister of Battle, and Is an inquisitor so she's automatically a little off.

And for the record, the average Sister of Battle would be stronger than the average guardsman just off vast difference in training, bring in the Sisters canonical ability towarp reality through the strength of their faith and it's not even close. Even in cases where the guardsman were physically stronger than sisters, it wouldn't matter because they wouldn't last 5 seconds 1v1 anyway. Sisters are elite soldiers trained to the absolute peak of the human condition. Guardsman are just farmers someone handed a lasgun.

Oh, sidebar: Since when can't Sisters of battle come from Deathworlds? Pretty sure they recruit from everywhere.


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 Red Corsair wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
the combat heels on their armour provide a less stable platform from which to make a physical strike, so they can't bring as much of the power of their armour to bear compared to a space marine in his sensible flat boots

You mean the combat heels they don't have, except for that one sister? Those non-existent heels?

I think he was ribbing on that certain crowd and wasn't being serious.

See, you say that, but that's a real thing that people really say all the time.

Ill just point out that your normal guardsmen is a higly trained soldier with powerfull but pragmatic equipement.
Your farmer with a lasgun is a conscripts. And then you have PDF as an in between of guardsmen and conscripts.

Imagine if Guardsmen had started S2 T2 instead of S3 T3. Power armoured nuns with no transhuman qualities would have been T3, transhuman space marines T4, Gravis and Custodes T5.

Humble bolter would have torn through that bubble wrap easily

Lemondish wrote:
Imagine if Guardsmen had started S2 T2 instead of S3 T3. Power armoured nuns with no transhuman qualities would have been T3, transhuman space marines T4, Gravis and Custodes T5.

Humble bolter would have torn through that bubble wrap easily

I actually think that is a great solution to a granulation problem in 40k. It's basically an issue that has been carried from 2nd for no reason.

In 2nd edition the bolter had AP -1, which helped. And the fact that Rapid Fire was a rule for Space Marines, not for particular kinds of weapons; Orks and Sisters of Battle didn't get to do it.

 Crimson wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
S4 guardsmen shouldn't have ever happened...

To be fair, it's mechanically lesser bonus than just giving them +1 to melee damage rolls to represent their greater strength, or giving them damage rerolls, so it kinda works.

Unless you have better idea how to represent Catachans being one of the best regiments in melee without making them OP?

I suggested +1 S on charge only. The old Furious Charge.

It doesn't really make much sense, though. Why would Catachans be much less effective in some cases if the bonus represents something innate to them? They aren't mouth-frothing berserkers relying on the impact of charge to make difference, Catachans should be just as good in fight regardless of the other guy throwing the first punch or not. Add to that hassle of keeping track of bonuses with possibly 6+ squads and I can see why the writers went that way. It's not like IG squad, even Catachan one, will live that long in combat anyway...

ERJAK wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
the combat heels on their armour provide a less stable platform from which to make a physical strike, so they can't bring as much of the power of their armour to bear compared to a space marine in his sensible flat boots

You mean the combat heels they don't have, except for that one sister? Those non-existent heels?

Yeah, I wish this gak would stop. There is ONE model in the ENTIRE RANGE that has EVER had high heels. Sisters wear combat boots, just like marines do.

Correction: used to wear combat boots. If the concept art is any indication, they switched to platform heel shoes for some reason:



You were saying?

They don't look like platforms to me. I've got dress shoes with soles like that.

Yeah....those aren't heels....My work boots have the same set up.