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Space Marines are over costed for their stats

An Ork boy while strong, probably not as strong as an Astartes. Catachans should not be anywhere as strong as a marine. Astartes should be S5 and T5 maybe. Or they should have a built in 6+ fnp. I don't even use Marines but they need some tweaking because other than BA, I don't think they are that hard to beat

 Elfric wrote:
Space Marines are over costed for their stats

An Ork boy while strong, probably not as strong as an Astartes. Catachans should not be anywhere as strong as a marine. Astartes should be S5 and T5 maybe. Or they should have a built in 6+ fnp. I don't even use Marines but they need some tweaking because other than BA, I don't think they are that hard to beat

Disagree with the stats changes. At that point SM, are on par with Custodes level durability, short of wounds and armour, which is definitely not the case. Orks are definitely about as strong as a marine, and the main issue you're coming across is the issue with the lack of granularity of a D6. For example, SoB in power armour should be functionally stronger than a guardsmen, but she's still only S3. This is because the scale of how strong she is doesn't translate into being around marine level strength. You kind of have to accept that the nuances between different factions are going to be lost when it comes to stats.

Space marines suck and chaf is strong because of core rules. Tweaking points over and over is useless. Marines have better armor weapons and stats then most things that are troops, therefore they need to cost more. What marines need desperately is an series of improvements. I still think bolters should be assault 3 or rapid fire 2 with an AP -1 against infantry. They also should not suffer penalties to hit. What the hell is the point in being armored in power armor if there is not benefit. They also should recreate captains and lieutenants area effects. Rerolls are so boring and uninspired. I'd rather see bonuses to assault from one and to shooting from another.

 Grimskul wrote:
You kind of have to accept that the nuances between different factions are going to be lost when it comes to stats.

A-frikking-men!
I think an old Kill Team reference to specialists applies: Every unit has individual members that have some kind of special skill, but at the scale of a normal 40K those special skills do not have a great enough impact on the overall battle to merit rules. But in KT, the scale is smaller and those skill make a difference, thus they get rules.

A Sister in PA is indeed stronger than a Guardsman, but not be enough for it to merit the bump to S4.
If the game used d12s instead of d6s, we might see that scale a bit better, but for simplicity's sake, thank the god-Emperor we use d6s

-

 Galef wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
You kind of have to accept that the nuances between different factions are going to be lost when it comes to stats.

A-frikking-men!
I think an old Kill Team reference to specialists applies: Every unit has individual members that have some kind of special skill, but at the scale of a normal 40K those special skills do not have a great enough impact on the overall battle to merit rules. But in KT, the scale is smaller and those skill make a difference, thus they get rules.

A Sister in PA is indeed stronger than a Guardsman, but not be enough for it to merit the bump to S4.
If the game used d12s instead of d6s, we might see that scale a bit better, but for simplicity's sake, thank the god-Emperor we use d6s

-

I honestly think D8 or 10 is the best compromise.

War of sigmar said that Full review the 07/dec of vigilius book.

So preorder next week.

 Galef wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
You kind of have to accept that the nuances between different factions are going to be lost when it comes to stats.

A-frikking-men!
I think an old Kill Team reference to specialists applies: Every unit has individual members that have some kind of special skill, but at the scale of a normal 40K those special skills do not have a great enough impact on the overall battle to merit rules. But in KT, the scale is smaller and those skill make a difference, thus they get rules.

A Sister in PA is indeed stronger than a Guardsman, but not be enough for it to merit the bump to S4.
If the game used d12s instead of d6s, we might see that scale a bit better, but for simplicity's sake, thank the god-Emperor we use d6s

-

So a sister in power armour isn't string enough to be S4 but a Catachan naked is strong enough to equal a marine in Power armour?

But yes the game really nneds to move to d12's or something that allows their to be more individuality to factions. The current rules removed the importance of nuances by flattening everything and then allowing situations with 60-80 or more dice being thrown about.

I am a bit confused about what will be in CA and what in the Vigilus book... and was there some cityfight book coming as well, or was was thus just a section in one of the two?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

So a sister in power armour isn't string enough to be S4 but a Catachan naked is strong enough to equal a marine in Power armour?

S4 guardsmen shouldn't have ever happened...

 Crimson wrote:
I am a bit confused about what will be in CA and what in the Vigilus book... and was there some cityfight book coming as well, or was was thus just a section in one of the two?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
You kind of have to accept that the nuances between different factions are going to be lost when it comes to stats.

A-frikking-men!
I think an old Kill Team reference to specialists applies: Every unit has individual members that have some kind of special skill, but at the scale of a normal 40K those special skills do not have a great enough impact on the overall battle to merit rules. But in KT, the scale is smaller and those skill make a difference, thus they get rules.

A Sister in PA is indeed stronger than a Guardsman, but not be enough for it to merit the bump to S4.
If the game used d12s instead of d6s, we might see that scale a bit better, but for simplicity's sake, thank the god-Emperor we use d6s

-

I honestly think D8 or 10 is the best compromise.

I don't, go roll 50 of those dice and tell me how much fun it is pulling hits without knocking dice over and finding cocked dice everywhere. At some point people need realize the rules service the models not the other way around. You don't need 10 variations of guardsmen with unique stats to justify all the cool kits they can produce. If anything the opposite approach is needed, they should be reducing the variation in rules for certain units.

This thread seems to have severely derailed. I guess that’s what happens in the absence of leaks

Ice_can wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
You kind of have to accept that the nuances between different factions are going to be lost when it comes to stats.

A-frikking-men!
I think an old Kill Team reference to specialists applies: Every unit has individual members that have some kind of special skill, but at the scale of a normal 40K those special skills do not have a great enough impact on the overall battle to merit rules. But in KT, the scale is smaller and those skill make a difference, thus they get rules.

A Sister in PA is indeed stronger than a Guardsman, but not be enough for it to merit the bump to S4.
If the game used d12s instead of d6s, we might see that scale a bit better, but for simplicity's sake, thank the god-Emperor we use d6s

-

So a sister in power armour isn't string enough to be S4 but a Catachan naked is strong enough to equal a marine in Power armour?

But yes the game really nneds to move to d12's or something that allows their to be more individuality to factions. The current rules removed the importance of nuances by flattening everything and then allowing situations with 60-80 or more dice being thrown about.

No d12s would be HORRIBLE for the game. Sure it would introduced better granularity, but can you imaging rolling a dozen or more d12s? Let alone 30+ which can happen.
That would suck far worse than putting up with a d6 system IMO (an opinion that I feel GW shares)
d8s might not be so bad though

But yes, it makes sense that a person lacking as much testosterone and NOT raised on a DeathWorld would be less strong even in Power Armour
It is not a stretch to belief that a male that is not weighed down by armour and is fit due to a constant struggle to survive each day would be stronger that an female in heavy armour (even augmented) that likely splits her time between training and praying, rather than trying to outright survive every second of every day.

-

 Ghaz wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I am a bit confused about what will be in CA and what in the Vigilus book... and was there some cityfight book coming as well, or was was thus just a section in one of the two?

Spoiler:

I guess just F my wallet, eh GW?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/30/the-three-armed-gunfightergw-homepage-post-3/

Other vigilius text. And again arbites.. interesting..

zamerion wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/30/the-three-armed-gunfightergw-homepage-post-3/

Other vigilius text. And again arbites.. interesting..

how is this related to the thread topic?

 nordsturmking wrote:

zamerion wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/30/the-three-armed-gunfightergw-homepage-post-3/

Other vigilius text. And again arbites.. interesting..

how is this related to the thread topic?

And your comment?

Vigilius thread is closed sorry.

Mandragola wrote:

This. Nobody - not even GW - would design a game from scratch with igoyougo now. Games like necromunda, kill team and AT have ditched it, as has AoS... kind of.

You're right - AoS is frequently IGOIGO

 Mymearan wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

This. Nobody - not even GW - would design a game from scratch with igoyougo now. Games like necromunda, kill team and AT have ditched it, as has AoS... kind of.

You're right - AoS is frequently IGOIGO

Yeah. And that's not an improvement!

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
This thread seems to have severely derailed. I guess that’s what happens in the absence of leaks

$10 to anyone who can give some info to discuss that is verifiably not made up.

Mandragola wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

bananathug wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
My army's gimmick is Azrael surrounded by gravis dudes soaking up the 4++ and let me tell you it's good folks

No, no it is not good. Not against real armies.

Tried it against dark eldar soup. 3x ravagers kills 7 4++ t5 marines (without doom) on average (his killed all 10 of my aggressors) 8 ynarri dark reapers shooting twice kill 8 more (there go the hell blasters) and then his 3x hemlocks come up and kill whatever else was in that bubble.

Or against the Knight list where endless furry kills all of your aggressors and then the castillan shoots whatever's left.

There are too many good ap -2+ d2+ weapons out there as it stands now for primaris to live.

And no, out of LOS doesn't work because with 14+" movement on a lot of the weapons with 48" range it's so easy to get an angle to one bit of a model in a unit to shoot the whole thing off the board.

The only safe primaris are those in deepstrike or intercessors who you don't are about getting shot. If primaris get a cheaper transport they can ride in they may be viable but at the moment with the meta as it is they are not good units.

As long as 40k continues to be Igoyougo this will be an all too common issue. A system where one player gets to move shoot their entire force before the opponent is going to result in 1 player fighting an up hill battle that they can rarely recover from.

The best solution to fix this is to adopt an alternative activation system. 40k has had this issue since as long as I have played (2nd edition), and it is still not being addressed.

This. Nobody - not even GW - would design a game from scratch with igoyougo now. Games like necromunda, kill team and AT have ditched it, as has AoS... kind of.

That said it is also true that there are too many good 2 damage weapons right now. The problem isn’t just that they are great against primaris. They are great against everything, so you may as well put them on every hardpoint. And then you have loads of them. This is what makes primaris get really badly screwed.

My IK army runs four avenger Gatling cannons at 1750 sometimes (and not much else) because hordes seem to be the only actual problem for knights. A side effect of that is that I can easily kill 15-20 primaris a turn, and I haven’t even designed the army to do so.

AoS is actually worse. For those who do not know: Whoever finishes deploying first chooses who goes first in round one. At the start of each round after the first, each player rolls a d6 and the player who wins decides who goes first that round (a tie goes to the person who went first the previous round). This means that a player can go second in round one, win initiative round two, and get a complete turn again before the other player gets to do anything. So it becomes I go, you go, you go, I go. Shooting in AoS is shorter range and sparse compared to 40k, so the person who goes first usually just gets an advantage on being able to seize objectives early (depending on the scenario).

However, GW notably did not include this in 40k when designing the rules even though they were very much inspired by/based on the AoS system. This tells me GW is moving in a positive direction in regards to igougo. Maybe in Chapter Approved 2019 they will include optional rules for alternate activation for people to try out.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
You kind of have to accept that the nuances between different factions are going to be lost when it comes to stats.

A-frikking-men!
I think an old Kill Team reference to specialists applies: Every unit has individual members that have some kind of special skill, but at the scale of a normal 40K those special skills do not have a great enough impact on the overall battle to merit rules. But in KT, the scale is smaller and those skill make a difference, thus they get rules.

A Sister in PA is indeed stronger than a Guardsman, but not be enough for it to merit the bump to S4.
If the game used d12s instead of d6s, we might see that scale a bit better, but for simplicity's sake, thank the god-Emperor we use d6s

-

I honestly think D8 or 10 is the best compromise.

I don't, go roll 50 of those dice and tell me how much fun it is pulling hits without knocking dice over and finding cocked dice everywhere. At some point people need realize the rules service the models not the other way around. You don't need 10 variations of guardsmen with unique stats to justify all the cool kits they can produce. If anything the opposite approach is needed, they should be reducing the variation in rules for certain units.

I mean it isn't hard to count the dice, and if you're that concerned about crooked dice just roll on a separate flat service. I really don't sympathize with your plight here.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
You kind of have to accept that the nuances between different factions are going to be lost when it comes to stats.

A-frikking-men!
I think an old Kill Team reference to specialists applies: Every unit has individual members that have some kind of special skill, but at the scale of a normal 40K those special skills do not have a great enough impact on the overall battle to merit rules. But in KT, the scale is smaller and those skill make a difference, thus they get rules.

A Sister in PA is indeed stronger than a Guardsman, but not be enough for it to merit the bump to S4.
If the game used d12s instead of d6s, we might see that scale a bit better, but for simplicity's sake, thank the god-Emperor we use d6s

-

I honestly think D8 or 10 is the best compromise.

I don't, go roll 50 of those dice and tell me how much fun it is pulling hits without knocking dice over and finding cocked dice everywhere. At some point people need realize the rules service the models not the other way around. You don't need 10 variations of guardsmen with unique stats to justify all the cool kits they can produce. If anything the opposite approach is needed, they should be reducing the variation in rules for certain units.

I mean it isn't hard to count the dice, and if you're that concerned about crooked dice just roll on a separate flat service. I really don't sympathize with your plight here.

Or just roll in smaller batches. I don't recall a single player I have encountered who rolled 50 d6s at once, usually I see people start rolling in batches of 15-20 once the total hits around 30.

Could also just bump the basic str of a human down to 2.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

bananathug wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
My army's gimmick is Azrael surrounded by gravis dudes soaking up the 4++ and let me tell you it's good folks

No, no it is not good. Not against real armies.

Tried it against dark eldar soup. 3x ravagers kills 7 4++ t5 marines (without doom) on average (his killed all 10 of my aggressors) 8 ynarri dark reapers shooting twice kill 8 more (there go the hell blasters) and then his 3x hemlocks come up and kill whatever else was in that bubble.

Or against the Knight list where endless furry kills all of your aggressors and then the castillan shoots whatever's left.

There are too many good ap -2+ d2+ weapons out there as it stands now for primaris to live.

And no, out of LOS doesn't work because with 14+" movement on a lot of the weapons with 48" range it's so easy to get an angle to one bit of a model in a unit to shoot the whole thing off the board.

The only safe primaris are those in deepstrike or intercessors who you don't are about getting shot. If primaris get a cheaper transport they can ride in they may be viable but at the moment with the meta as it is they are not good units.

As long as 40k continues to be Igoyougo this will be an all too common issue. A system where one player gets to move shoot their entire force before the opponent is going to result in 1 player fighting an up hill battle that they can rarely recover from.

The best solution to fix this is to adopt an alternative activation system. 40k has had this issue since as long as I have played (2nd edition), and it is still not being addressed.

This. Nobody - not even GW - would design a game from scratch with igoyougo now. Games like necromunda, kill team and AT have ditched it, as has AoS... kind of.

That said it is also true that there are too many good 2 damage weapons right now. The problem isn’t just that they are great against primaris. They are great against everything, so you may as well put them on every hardpoint. And then you have loads of them. This is what makes primaris get really badly screwed.

My IK army runs four avenger Gatling cannons at 1750 sometimes (and not much else) because hordes seem to be the only actual problem for knights. A side effect of that is that I can easily kill 15-20 primaris a turn, and I haven’t even designed the army to do so.

AoS is actually worse. For those who do not know: Whoever finishes deploying first chooses who goes first in round one. At the start of each round after the first, each player rolls a d6 and the player who wins decides who goes first that round (a tie goes to the person who went first the previous round). This means that a player can go second in round one, win initiative round two, and get a complete turn again before the other player gets to do anything. So it becomes I go, you go, you go, I go. Shooting in AoS is shorter range and sparse compared to 40k, so the person who goes first usually just gets an advantage on being able to seize objectives early (depending on the scenario).

However, GW notably did not include this in 40k when designing the rules even though they were very much inspired by/based on the AoS system. This tells me GW is moving in a positive direction in regards to igougo. Maybe in Chapter Approved 2019 they will include optional rules for alternate activation for people to try out.

Optional alternating activation rules for 40k is like "crazy dream fantasy" tier stuff for me out of a CA.

As long as the goofy, ridiculous Fall Back rule from kill team doesn't come along for the ride. I did not think it was even remotely possible for games workshop to make deadly elite melee troops feel more like the dingus goons from an action movie who attack the hero one at a time, but they managed it.

"Dang...he ran away from me, now he's five feet over to my left. I can't charge after him and hit him over the head again, and I can't just walk away and start firing my weapon at some other target. If I move at all right now I'll forget how to use my gun, because I'm just so bamboozled from that guy running away. I guess I'll just stand here, sloooooooowly raising my weapon to fire, hope nobody shoots me..."

Well a model cannot retreat if it was charged that turn afaik.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well a model cannot retreat if it was charged that turn afaik.

Nah it's worse than that.

Because they have to make the movement "count as" simultaneous, their solution to the Fall Back rule from 40k is this:

-if you get charged and then you move second, you cannot fall back (makes sense)

-if you then go first the next turn, you can fall back, and then the model you fell back FROM counts as being engaged with an enemy. That model has a choice to either A) Stand completely still, exposed to all enemy fire, and shoot his weapon, or B ), he ALSO has to fall back, which means he doesn't get to shoot that turn. Note that neither of these options allows a melee-only model to do anything with his melee weapons.

This means, effectively, that melee specialist models only ever get to do anything every other turn. It makes some kind of sense as a compromise (at least if you go first your opponent can't go "yoink!" and fall back with all their models after overwatching you) but it is the most hilariously immersion-breaking thing you can imagine.

If 40k proper did go to alternating activation in a CA, they would most likely have to do away with this whole "consequence free falling back" deal that they've got going on. You know, because it has never made any sense since the start of 8th.

I like the Necromundaversion much better than Kill Team.
In regard of AoS the Fight Phase (were a great part of that game is decided) is alternate Activations.

In regard of dice: i hate D6 when modifiers come in. Here a D10 would be much better. If there were no modifiers a D6 is fine. The probelem is the stats that are to close.
I was so hyped when they announced the new edition having a much greater range of Stats far behind 10.
I thought: cool now the Space marine can have Toughnes 8 and the Leman russs can have toughnes 25.
Equivalent for much more weapon diversity.

Well i got disapointed

Joey86 wrote:
In regard of dice: i hate D6 when modifiers come in. Here a D10 would be much better. If there were no modifiers a D6 is fine. The probelem is the stats that are to close.
I was so hyped when they announced the new edition having a much greater range of Stats far behind 10.
I thought: cool now the Space marine can have Toughnes 8 and the Leman russs can have toughnes 25.
Equivalent for much more weapon diversity.

Well i got disapointed

Is the toughness equal to str? 5+ to wound
Is the toughness greater than str? 6+ to wound
Is the toughness 50% greater than str? 7+ to wound
Is the toughness double str? 8+ to wound
Is the toughness triple str? 9+ to wound
Is the toughness quadruple str? 10+ to wound

I don't want to keep track of that.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Joey86 wrote:
In regard of dice: i hate D6 when modifiers come in. Here a D10 would be much better. If there were no modifiers a D6 is fine. The probelem is the stats that are to close.
I was so hyped when they announced the new edition having a much greater range of Stats far behind 10.
I thought: cool now the Space marine can have Toughnes 8 and the Leman russs can have toughnes 25.
Equivalent for much more weapon diversity.

Well i got disapointed

Is the toughness equal to str? 5+ to wound
Is the toughness greater than str? 6+ to wound
Is the toughness 50% greater than str? 7+ to wound
Is the toughness double str? 8+ to wound
Is the toughness triple str? 9+ to wound
Is the toughness quadruple str? 10+ to wound

I don't want to keep track of that.

I sincerely doubt it would've been that bad.

 Crimson wrote:
I am a bit confused about what will be in CA and what in the Vigilus book... and was there some cityfight book coming as well, or was was thus just a section in one of the two?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

So a sister in power armour isn't string enough to be S4 but a Catachan naked is strong enough to equal a marine in Power armour?

S4 guardsmen shouldn't have ever happened...

I always thought a good compromise for this would have been to give catachans S3, but give them +1 to wound against all infantry targets.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Joey86 wrote:
In regard of dice: i hate D6 when modifiers come in. Here a D10 would be much better. If there were no modifiers a D6 is fine. The probelem is the stats that are to close.
I was so hyped when they announced the new edition having a much greater range of Stats far behind 10.
I thought: cool now the Space marine can have Toughnes 8 and the Leman russs can have toughnes 25.
Equivalent for much more weapon diversity.

Well i got disapointed

Is the toughness equal to str? 5+ to wound
Is the toughness greater than str? 6+ to wound
Is the toughness 50% greater than str? 7+ to wound
Is the toughness double str? 8+ to wound
Is the toughness triple str? 9+ to wound
Is the toughness quadruple str? 10+ to wound

I don't want to keep track of that.

I sincerely doubt it would've been that bad.

Well the D6 isn´t that bad especially for the to wound roll.
Hit and Armor, especially since modifiers exist, would be way better on a d10 than d6. but to many different dice are also not good. i can understand the argument for only using one sort of dice.

back before this edition we had a different dmg table that would have worked upscaled with a d10. Would maybe be to complex especially for beginners. But i liked the Idea of having much more different stats between guardsman and Spacemarine