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More of the specialized detachments, Xenos this time:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/05/5th-dec-xenos-specialist-detachments-rules-previewgw-homepage-post-4/

Crimson fists was my first chapter when I started 4th. Very cool chapter with easy paint scheme.

Mandragola wrote:
Don't forget our pointless stratagem!

But yeah, I've found Crimson Fists to be pretty ok. Now if other people start playing them too I'm fine with that.

Oh and it's still awesome that we get an actually very good relic, and that (inexplicably) the guy wielding it has got cheaper.

Oh yeah the Relic Power Fist is godlike, very happy if the pts drop on Primaris Captain is true, though we'll have to see what drop Pedro gets too.

Bolt Storm has some uses, as the person above pointed out. It's decent on Aggressors, but situational. It's is utter poopoo on anything else though.

Lemondish wrote:
Black Crazies, Space Pups, and Vampire Angels won't gain a benefit to their vehicles, which is fine - infantry slashy dudes after all.

Why wouldn't the Black Templar tactic help vehicles? Sometimes tanks want to charge, and dreads definitely do.

The specialist detachment aqusition seems like it's not going to be that much like Formations. It's still giving you choices to pick at during and before the game. That's not bad.

Though if it's only costing you CP to make them a SD, that may mean that Soup will be able to take these fairly easily, depending on costs and whether they will include the units affected.
Then again, that may not be much of a problem. We shall see in due time.

 Redemption wrote:
More of the specialized detachments, Xenos this time:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/05/5th-dec-xenos-specialist-detachments-rules-previewgw-homepage-post-4/

Oh great and now we have our first busted stratagem. So now GSC abberants can ambush and gain +1 to their charge but more insane is they will be walking around with wulfn death frenzy... GSC do not struggle to get CP, oh GW....

I was hoping that the Wraithost would have been good, I am a bit disappointed. I hope it has some other, better, boosts too. And of course it makes the core problem of the Wraith armies even worse, you need to bring a bunch of boring Guardians or thematically inappropriate Rangers to generate the CP.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
More of the specialized detachments, Xenos this time:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/05/5th-dec-xenos-specialist-detachments-rules-previewgw-homepage-post-4/

Oh great and now we have our first busted stratagem. So now GSC abberants can ambush and gain +1 to their charge but more insane is they will be walking around with wulfn death frenzy... GSC do not struggle to get CP, oh GW....

The warlord trait will be competing with others when the codex comes out. As it is, it's our best of 2 warlord traits. It's also meaning your warlord is likely going to be an artefact weilding Abominant.
One good unit getting a strategem to make them better isn't that worrisome.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
More of the specialized detachments, Xenos this time:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/05/5th-dec-xenos-specialist-detachments-rules-previewgw-homepage-post-4/

Oh great and now we have our first busted stratagem. So now GSC abberants can ambush and gain +1 to their charge but more insane is they will be walking around with wulfn death frenzy... GSC do not struggle to get CP, oh GW....

We don't even know what the interplay of ambush will be with the latest FAQ. +1 to charge is the trait. We're 3 CP in and a trait to get "Wulfen". And if they don't die then they don't get extra attacks, which is unlikely unless they managed to charge a dreadnought.

 Crimson wrote:
I was hoping that the Wraithost would have been good, I am a bit disappointed. I hope it has some other, better, boosts too. And of course it makes the core problem of the Wraith armies even worse, you need to bring a bunch of boring Guardians or thematically inappropriate Rangers to generate the CP.

yeah, 2cp for a turn of wulfen-ness on a unit of aberrants doesn't seem that crazy. Especially because you can't use it in response to your opponent targetting them, you have to use it before your turn.

"OK, I ambush my unit of aberrants onto the board and attack with them. Now I use the stratagem on them to make them fight when they die."

"Great. I fall back from those aberrants and shoot them."

"Oh."

 Carnikang wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
More of the specialized detachments, Xenos this time:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/05/5th-dec-xenos-specialist-detachments-rules-previewgw-homepage-post-4/

Oh great and now we have our first busted stratagem. So now GSC abberants can ambush and gain +1 to their charge but more insane is they will be walking around with wulfn death frenzy... GSC do not struggle to get CP, oh GW....

The warlord trait will be competing with others when the codex comes out. As it is, it's our best of 2 warlord traits. It's also meaning your warlord is likely going to be an artefact weilding Abominant.
One good unit getting a strategem to make them better isn't that worrisome.

Couple things, it isn't one unit, it's happens to affect every unit of the best melee slot in the army, lets just be clear. So the opponent would have to give you a tough choice between multiple units counter swinging is basically the downside your eluding to. That's hardly a downside. Plus wulfin are still as busted as ever, they just struggle to get where they need to and cost a ton, aberrant have neither of those problems. Assuming the ambush table remains the same, which BTW the designers have only suggested they will improve it, your looking at easier then normal charges across multiple units as well.

I play GSC, but I can at least judge it unbiased. 1 CP to unlock the WLT and Relic alone would have been tempting, that stratagem is insane and has me very concerned, especially when you look at how crappy that wraithhost strat is by comparison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
More of the specialized detachments, Xenos this time:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/05/5th-dec-xenos-specialist-detachments-rules-previewgw-homepage-post-4/

Oh great and now we have our first busted stratagem. So now GSC abberants can ambush and gain +1 to their charge but more insane is they will be walking around with wulfn death frenzy... GSC do not struggle to get CP, oh GW....

We don't even know what the interplay of ambush will be with the latest FAQ. +1 to charge is the trait. We're 3 CP in and a trait to get "Wulfen". And if they don't die then they don't get extra attacks, which is unlikely unless they managed to charge a dreadnought.

Possibly the most ingenious way of describing it ever. Your not 3 CP in, your 1 in and gaining an insane WLT and relic right off the get go. The other part doesn't even merit a response it's so misguided.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
More of the specialized detachments, Xenos this time:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/05/5th-dec-xenos-specialist-detachments-rules-previewgw-homepage-post-4/

Oh great and now we have our first busted stratagem. So now GSC abberants can ambush and gain +1 to their charge but more insane is they will be walking around with wulfn death frenzy... GSC do not struggle to get CP, oh GW....

The warlord trait will be competing with others when the codex comes out. As it is, it's our best of 2 warlord traits. It's also meaning your warlord is likely going to be an artefact weilding Abominant.
One good unit getting a strategem to make them better isn't that worrisome.

Couple things, it isn't one unit, it's happens to affect every unit of the best melee slot in the army, lets just be clear. So the opponent would have to give you a tough choice between multiple units counter swinging is basically the downside your eluding to. That's hardly a downside. Plus wulfin are still as busted as ever, they just struggle to get where they need to and cost a ton, aberrant have neither of those problems. Assuming the ambush table remains the same, which BTW the designers have only suggested they will improve it, your looking at easier then normal charges across multiple units as well.

I play GSC, but I can at least judge it unbiased. 1 CP to unlock the WLT and Relic alone would have been tempting, that stratagem is insane and has me very concerned, especially when you look at how crappy that wraithhost strat is by comparison.

Nnope, it definitely is a single unit.

"use at the start of the fight phase, pick an Annointed Throng unit from your army."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think it's a terrible strat, I can just count the number of times I've been worried about my opponent killing my aberrants in the fight phase on no fingers.

99.9% of the time, they show up, obliterate something, then get shot.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I was hoping that the Wraithost would have been good, I am a bit disappointed. I hope it has some other, better, boosts too. And of course it makes the core problem of the Wraith armies even worse, you need to bring a bunch of boring Guardians or thematically inappropriate Rangers to generate the CP.

yeah, 2cp for a turn of wulfen-ness on a unit of aberrants doesn't seem that crazy. Especially because you can't use it in response to your opponent targetting them, you have to use it before your turn.

"OK, I ambush my unit of aberrants onto the board and attack with them. Now I use the stratagem on them to make them fight when they die."

"Great. I fall back from those aberrants and shoot them."

"Oh."

Reread the stratagem. You use it at the start of the fight phase which is useful with things like the counter offensive Stratagem and multiple combats as well as hitting tougher targets.
I charge a gallant with 5 abberants and pop it off, but get the mileage out of 10 abberants because after I drop it by half it activates and kills the my unit easily so now they all get to beat it to death.

Your making it sound way harder to use then it is.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Couple things, it isn't one unit, it's happens to affect every unit of the best melee slot in the army, lets just be clear. So the opponent would have to give you a tough choice between multiple units counter swinging is basically the downside your eluding to. That's hardly a downside. Plus wulfin are still as busted as ever, they just struggle to get where they need to and cost a ton, aberrant have neither of those problems. Assuming the ambush table remains the same, which BTW the designers have only suggested they will improve it, your looking at easier then normal charges across multiple units as well.

I play GSC, but I can at least judge it unbiased. 1 CP to unlock the WLT and Relic alone would have been tempting, that stratagem is insane and has me very concerned, especially when you look at how crappy that wraithhost strat is by comparison.

One unit is affected by the strategem, and despite that, I didn't say it wasn't good. It seems really good.

But we're already betting on a 5 or 6 for Abberants+Abom turn 2, hoping they haven't been screened effectively, without any ranged weapons, on a T4 2W unit with a paper thin save who's saving Grace is Bestial Vigor. That strat is good, but it's only going to matter if you've thrown them into a blender and they didn't do their job the first go round.

 Red Corsair wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I was hoping that the Wraithost would have been good, I am a bit disappointed. I hope it has some other, better, boosts too. And of course it makes the core problem of the Wraith armies even worse, you need to bring a bunch of boring Guardians or thematically inappropriate Rangers to generate the CP.

yeah, 2cp for a turn of wulfen-ness on a unit of aberrants doesn't seem that crazy. Especially because you can't use it in response to your opponent targetting them, you have to use it before your turn.

"OK, I ambush my unit of aberrants onto the board and attack with them. Now I use the stratagem on them to make them fight when they die."

"Great. I fall back from those aberrants and shoot them."

"Oh."

Reread the stratagem. You use it at the start of the fight phase which is useful with things like the counter offensive Stratagem and multiple combats as well as hitting tougher targets.
I charge a gallant with 5 abberants and pop it off, but get the mileage out of 10 abberants because after I drop it by half it activates and kills the my unit easily so now they all get to beat it to death.

Your making it sound way harder to use then it is.

That's true, I can see it being good versus knights.

I guess the question is: how likely do you figure GSC are to get a 3CP fight twice stratagem like Space Marines, Tyranids, and Orks? That would decrease the value to me significantly of this strat because for 1cp I could just not lose my Aberrants instead.

 Crimson wrote:
I was hoping that the Wraithost would have been good, I am a bit disappointed. I hope it has some other, better, boosts too. And of course it makes the core problem of the Wraith armies even worse, you need to bring a bunch of boring Guardians or thematically inappropriate Rangers to generate the CP.

It’s certainly underwhelming for wraithguard, but it is quite good for wraithblades. I’m hoping ‘blades get a decent price drop in CA as well, as they are very expensive right now for a very slow melee unit. I have used them a number of times in 8th with the axe and shield loadout, and they are an excellent “anvil” type unit that can take a punch from enemy melee threats and then deal some damage back, but they struggle against armies that don’t want to come to you. The axe variety should probably be at least 10 points cheaper.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
More of the specialized detachments, Xenos this time:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/05/5th-dec-xenos-specialist-detachments-rules-previewgw-homepage-post-4/

Oh great and now we have our first busted stratagem. So now GSC abberants can ambush and gain +1 to their charge but more insane is they will be walking around with wulfn death frenzy... GSC do not struggle to get CP, oh GW....

The warlord trait will be competing with others when the codex comes out. As it is, it's our best of 2 warlord traits. It's also meaning your warlord is likely going to be an artefact weilding Abominant.
One good unit getting a strategem to make them better isn't that worrisome.

Couple things, it isn't one unit, it's happens to affect every unit of the best melee slot in the army, lets just be clear. So the opponent would have to give you a tough choice between multiple units counter swinging is basically the downside your eluding to. That's hardly a downside. Plus wulfin are still as busted as ever, they just struggle to get where they need to and cost a ton, aberrant have neither of those problems. Assuming the ambush table remains the same, which BTW the designers have only suggested they will improve it, your looking at easier then normal charges across multiple units as well.

I play GSC, but I can at least judge it unbiased. 1 CP to unlock the WLT and Relic alone would have been tempting, that stratagem is insane and has me very concerned, especially when you look at how crappy that wraithhost strat is by comparison.

Nnope, it definitely is a single unit.

"use at the start of the fight phase, pick an Annointed Throng unit from your army."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think it's a terrible strat, I can just count the number of times I've been worried about my opponent killing my aberrants in the fight phase on no fingers.

99.9% of the time, they show up, obliterate something, then get shot.

You totally missed my point, its a single unit per turn. Sure I can only do it once a turn, but generally I am only going to need it on one unit a turn. Further more I get to pick the unit. You must not play GSC very often if your abbs have never died in assault with things like knights in every army.

Hell, even in a world of Knights in general it's fantastic. Go ahead, charge my Aberrants, they're going to absolutely murder it on your turn.

It's not the fact that they can be shot off the table instead, it's the THREAT that they can't be attacked in melee that makes this Strat the most interesting. You're controlling your opponent if you're doing proper charges, and you can use the Aberrants to lock things down and prevent counter charges, because now they can't just overwhelm you with charges, because you can not only interrupt them but also attack twice when they die.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I was hoping that the Wraithost would have been good, I am a bit disappointed. I hope it has some other, better, boosts too. And of course it makes the core problem of the Wraith armies even worse, you need to bring a bunch of boring Guardians or thematically inappropriate Rangers to generate the CP.

yeah, 2cp for a turn of wulfen-ness on a unit of aberrants doesn't seem that crazy. Especially because you can't use it in response to your opponent targetting them, you have to use it before your turn.

"OK, I ambush my unit of aberrants onto the board and attack with them. Now I use the stratagem on them to make them fight when they die."

"Great. I fall back from those aberrants and shoot them."

"Oh."

Reread the stratagem. You use it at the start of the fight phase which is useful with things like the counter offensive Stratagem and multiple combats as well as hitting tougher targets.
I charge a gallant with 5 abberants and pop it off, but get the mileage out of 10 abberants because after I drop it by half it activates and kills the my unit easily so now they all get to beat it to death.

Your making it sound way harder to use then it is.

That's true, I can see it being good versus knights.

I guess the question is: how likely do you figure GSC are to get a 3CP fight twice stratagem like Space Marines, Tyranids, and Orks? That would decrease the value to me significantly of this strat because for 1cp I could just not lose my Aberrants instead.

Again your ignoring counter offensive or alternating activation. If I charge a unit of abberants into a knight, I swing, then he swings and kills them, so good luck using that 3cp fight twice. More expensive and less likely to happen.

It's not the most busted thing on the planet, but it gives me pause. That's a formation that is worth the single CP for the relic and WLT alone, meaning the strat is just gravy. Then you look at the eldar one, pure garbage. Has me concerned with how balanced these will be.

Am I blind or did that article mention Windrider Hosts, but then immediately show Ork rules instead?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Hell, even in a world of Knights in general it's fantastic. Go ahead, charge my Aberrants, they're going to absolutely murder it on your turn.

It's not the fact that they can be shot off the table instead, it's the THREAT that they can't be attacked in melee that makes this Strat the most interesting. You're controlling your opponent if you're doing proper charges, and you can use the Aberrants to lock things down and prevent counter charges, because now they can't just overwhelm you with charges, because you can not only interrupt them but also attack twice when they die.

Exactly, and it isn't hard to activate. It literally says at the start of the fight phase. Not start of turn, Fight Phase. Easiest strat in the world to use since you pop it off after charges have concluded.

Edit for ninja'd response: Yes, it is a good stratagem. I think the eldar stratagem being bad is entirely dependent on wraithknights and wraithblades with axes currently being bad, and if they weren't, it would be fine for a CP. Bet you a shiny dime their second stratagem is a shooting based wraith stratagem.

You're missing the nuance of the stratagem, and you're just blindly jumping into "it isn't as good as fighting twice".

That's not what it's about.

You can make tactical choices with those abberants now, and if you can roll well enough on the Ambush table, 2-3 rolls on it for example, and stretch that unit out as to tag a few units who can only shoot, you now make it **Functionally impossible/difficult for them to be slain by shooting, and leaving some armies in TAC lists with only the option to try and charge them, which now you're making a very, very unwise decision.

It's not about overwhelming, it's about control, and that's better.

 Galef wrote:
Am I blind or did that article mention Windrider Hosts, but then immediately show Ork rules instead?

It's just teasing the existence.

I'm wondering how viable a supreme command wraith host would be. A wraithknight, some wraithblades, some spiritseers or some other HQs you want. Aren't wraithknights coming down in points too?

Based on some slipped tongues on playtesters, I would not bet too heavily on being able to use Supreme Command for very long. Take that with all the salt in the world.

If wraithknights go down to 300 points, 360 for a sword and board with a cannon seems decent. Take three and add them to a Ynarri battalion with spears.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Based on some slipped tongues on playtesters, I would not bet too heavily on being able to use Supreme Command for very long. Take that with all the salt in the world.

Hmm, that would suck a bit for Guard. It is the only way to get doctrine baneblades, without taking three. I usually don't bother as Tallarn superheavies are not massively useful, but for other regiments it is quite nice.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
You're missing the nuance of the stratagem, and you're just blindly jumping into "it isn't as good as fighting twice".

That's not what it's about.

You can make tactical choices with those abberants now, and if you can roll well enough on the Ambush table, 2-3 rolls on it for example, and stretch that unit out as to tag a few units who can only shoot, you now make it **Functionally impossible/difficult for them to be slain by shooting, and leaving some armies in TAC lists with only the option to try and charge them, which now you're making a very, very unwise decision.

It's not about overwhelming, it's about control, and that's better.

I think the argument Scotsman and I were backing is it's not OP. I think all of us can agree it's good though. Which is kind of where the argument seems futile. It doesn't matter until we see it all in full.

Every GSC army is likely going to take it though, because it's one of the few good ways for us to access good relics/traits/strategem. At least until January... Hopefully.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Am I blind or did that article mention Windrider Hosts, but then immediately show Ork rules instead?

It's just teasing the existence.

They did the same with the broodsurge.

 Carnikang wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
You're missing the nuance of the stratagem, and you're just blindly jumping into "it isn't as good as fighting twice".

That's not what it's about.

You can make tactical choices with those abberants now, and if you can roll well enough on the Ambush table, 2-3 rolls on it for example, and stretch that unit out as to tag a few units who can only shoot, you now make it **Functionally impossible/difficult for them to be slain by shooting, and leaving some armies in TAC lists with only the option to try and charge them, which now you're making a very, very unwise decision.

It's not about overwhelming, it's about control, and that's better.

I think the argument Scotsman and I were backing is it's not OP. I think all of us can agree it's good though. Which is kind of where the argument seems futile. It doesn't matter until we see it all in full.

Every GSC army is likely going to take it though, because it's one of the few good ways for us to access good relics/traits/strategem. At least until January... Hopefully.

Sure, that's valid enough. I was responding to his comment he had edited, so it seems out of place now in comparison.