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lonewolf81 wrote: They are super good and they are undecosted , thats my point
Well you failed at making that point entirely. You just listed some of the key functions of the army that define it's play style. You can literally do that with every army. You didn't provide an argument or any evidence why it's overpowered or under priced.
Khaine wrote: Seems extremely odd that Drukhari got no changes considering the sheer number of changes for other factions... They could at least nerf Dissie Ravagers and buff Hellions or something. Perhaps a page is missing?
No page numbers missing. Drukhari on their own are ok (disintegrators aside). It's when they ally it becomes more of a problem. We'll have to wait and see if GW has any structural changes that impact list building.
You are so wrong. It is the most powerful solo codex. Practically every unit is undercosted lol.
As a drukhari player I have to agree. I can't even bring a solo DE list to a friendly game even when deliberately taking non-optimized units. Even then losing is an uphill battle.
You really need better oponents. Well played Craftworlds, Thousand Sons, Tau, IG and Tyranids are a match for Drukhari.
Nids auto lose to DE. AP-4 and poison are direct counters to nids. Tau get screwed by DE - MSU beats tau (tau are good at killing a few big units - and really bad at killing -1 to hit MSU). Craftworlds is an amazing codex too - it can compete - IG struggle against -1 to hit in a lot of cases but IG is a top tier army too. TS? It's kinda meh...TS will have a much easy time now for sure but in a solo army (which is what I was talking about) TS just do not have the damage or relisiance to handle DE.
5th edition wants it's talking points back. Poison sucks verse nid monsters and is even worse verse gribblies. When most of the weapons in the game wound monsters on 5's and hordes on 3's poison 4+ is not that hot. As for AP -4, that all comes on single shot weaponry, any nid list worth it's salt is -1 to hit. Shooting like guardsmen at monsters you wound, half of which are T8 really isn't so special. As for Tau, velocity trackers completely counter the hit mod and quadruple tapping firewariors even with the mod more then make up the gap by wounding the vehicles on a 4+. And TS are one of the few armies that can hard counter DE, auto hitting mortal wounds, enlightened wound spam and practically auto pass death hex can really put the screws to a DE army.
You conclude that I am making up units because I said night fighter in error over jet fighter. Call it whatever you want but that is just not reasonable.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
the_scotsman wrote: With the new points values, a Helverin is 175, a rifleman dread is 120 (4 autocannons).
For the 55 points, the Helverin gets 4 wounds and a 5++ but also gets a degrading statline that includes Ballistic Skill. It gains the ability to move around and fire, and gets Damage 3 instead of Damage 2 on its gun.
So, 45% more cost, 33% more damage on average vs almost all targets, 33% more durability (45% more vs AP-3, 55% more vs AP-4), and the ability to move.
Considering the much, much easier access to buffing auras you've got in Space marines, I kind of like the dreadnought better here, for the exact same role.
Talking about traditional "close range/close combat" dreads against armiger warglaives, I definitely think there's no reason to consider the dread unless you're taking a stormraven to plop him straight into combat. Then comparing like to like the Armiger vs a CCW/multimelta dread pays 52 points (112 vs 164, 46% more) for:
-33% or more extra durability, but again degrading stats
-The sweep attack profile, since the Strike profile is identical to the dread combat arm except against T6 targets
-double the fire power between MM and melta lance thingy
Considering that I can keep my dreadnought in a plane and deliver him straight to the target turn 2, while my Armiger has to run through enemy fire to get there, and then if I charge a heavy target they perform essentially identically, I kind of like the Dread here as well.
Degrading starliner doesn't matter much. Sure, we can say that the Helviren lost 6 wounds and is shooting at BS4+ now.
If the Dread loses 6 wounds how much closer is it to dying, to the point you're not going to finish it off?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also D3 for damage is a deal breaker.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 20:42:52
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Khaine wrote: Seems extremely odd that Drukhari got no changes considering the sheer number of changes for other factions... They could at least nerf Dissie Ravagers and buff Hellions or something. Perhaps a page is missing?
No page numbers missing. Drukhari on their own are ok (disintegrators aside). It's when they ally it becomes more of a problem. We'll have to wait and see if GW has any structural changes that impact list building.
You are so wrong. It is the most powerful solo codex. Practically every unit is undercosted lol.
As a drukhari player I have to agree. I can't even bring a solo DE list to a friendly game even when deliberately taking non-optimized units. Even then losing is an uphill battle.
You really need better oponents. Well played Craftworlds, Thousand Sons, Tau, IG and Tyranids are a match for Drukhari.
Nids auto lose to DE. AP-4 and poison are direct counters to nids. Tau get screwed by DE - MSU beats tau (tau are good at killing a few big units - and really bad at killing -1 to hit MSU). Craftworlds is an amazing codex too - it can compete - IG struggle against -1 to hit in a lot of cases but IG is a top tier army too. TS? It's kinda meh...TS will have a much easy time now for sure but in a solo army (which is what I was talking about) TS just do not have the damage or relisiance to handle DE.
5th edition wants it's talking points back. Poison sucks verse nid monsters and is even worse verse gribblies. When most of the weapons in the game wound monsters on 5's and hordes on 3's poison 4+ is not that hot. As for AP -4, that all comes on single shot weaponry, any nid list worth it's salt is -1 to hit. Shooting like guardsmen at monsters you wound, half of which are T8 really isn't so special. As for Tau, velocity trackers completely counter the hit mod and quadruple tapping firewariors even with the mod more then make up the gap by wounding the vehicles on a 4+. And TS are one of the few armies that can hard counter DE, auto hitting mortal wounds, enlightened wound spam and practically auto pass death hex can really put the screws to a DE army.
You conclude that I am making up units because I said night fighter in error over jet fighter. Call it whatever you want but that is just not reasonable.
You fail to back your claims up with any evidence or explanation, then get simple details completely wrong and when called out you try to make some high horse claim like I've insulted you somehow. mate, your have it backwards, your assuming things about my intent there. I was literally taking your post as face value. Your just frustrated because your literally telling other people they are wrong without explanation and being called out.
Xenomancers wrote: TS? It's kinda meh...TS will have a much easy time now for sure but in a solo army (which is what I was talking about) TS just do not have the damage or relisiance to handle DE.
Uhh. The only weapon I literally need to worry about is the disintegrator.
Grotesques and Talos I take down with Death Hex. Poison does almost nothing to me with a 2+ save.
the_scotsman wrote: With the new points values, a Helverin is 175, a rifleman dread is 120 (4 autocannons).
For the 55 points, the Helverin gets 4 wounds and a 5++ but also gets a degrading statline that includes Ballistic Skill. It gains the ability to move around and fire, and gets Damage 3 instead of Damage 2 on its gun.
So, 45% more cost, 33% more damage on average vs almost all targets, 33% more durability (45% more vs AP-3, 55% more vs AP-4), and the ability to move.
Considering the much, much easier access to buffing auras you've got in Space marines, I kind of like the dreadnought better here, for the exact same role.
Talking about traditional "close range/close combat" dreads against armiger warglaives, I definitely think there's no reason to consider the dread unless you're taking a stormraven to plop him straight into combat. Then comparing like to like the Armiger vs a CCW/multimelta dread pays 52 points (112 vs 164, 46% more) for:
-33% or more extra durability, but again degrading stats
-The sweep attack profile, since the Strike profile is identical to the dread combat arm except against T6 targets
-double the fire power between MM and melta lance thingy
Considering that I can keep my dreadnought in a plane and deliver him straight to the target turn 2, while my Armiger has to run through enemy fire to get there, and then if I charge a heavy target they perform essentially identically, I kind of like the Dread here as well.
Degrading starliner doesn't matter much. Sure, we can say that the Helviren lost 6 wounds and is shooting at BS4+ now.
If the Dread loses 6 wounds how much closer is it to dying, to the point you're not going to finish it off?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also D3 for damage is a deal breaker.
Further more you have to consider the 5++ here. Anything AT related that degrades a mini knight after saves would have killed the dread.
the_scotsman wrote: With the new points values, a Helverin is 175, a rifleman dread is 120 (4 autocannons).
For the 55 points, the Helverin gets 4 wounds and a 5++ but also gets a degrading statline that includes Ballistic Skill. It gains the ability to move around and fire, and gets Damage 3 instead of Damage 2 on its gun.
So, 45% more cost, 33% more damage on average vs almost all targets, 33% more durability (45% more vs AP-3, 55% more vs AP-4), and the ability to move.
Considering the much, much easier access to buffing auras you've got in Space marines, I kind of like the dreadnought better here, for the exact same role.
Talking about traditional "close range/close combat" dreads against armiger warglaives, I definitely think there's no reason to consider the dread unless you're taking a stormraven to plop him straight into combat. Then comparing like to like the Armiger vs a CCW/multimelta dread pays 52 points (112 vs 164, 46% more) for:
-33% or more extra durability, but again degrading stats
-The sweep attack profile, since the Strike profile is identical to the dread combat arm except against T6 targets
-double the fire power between MM and melta lance thingy
Considering that I can keep my dreadnought in a plane and deliver him straight to the target turn 2, while my Armiger has to run through enemy fire to get there, and then if I charge a heavy target they perform essentially identically, I kind of like the Dread here as well.
Degrading starliner doesn't matter much. Sure, we can say that the Helviren lost 6 wounds and is shooting at BS4+ now.
If the Dread loses 6 wounds how much closer is it to dying, to the point you're not going to finish it off?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also D3 for damage is a deal breaker.
D3 for damage on what? The helverin autocannons?
I pointed out that for the cost differential (45%) the helverin does 33% more damage, and is only 45% more durable if you're being shot by AP-3 or more.
That's not efficient. AP-1 and AP-2 weapons do exist. and again, how many auras does being a space marine get you?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Xenomancers wrote: TS? It's kinda meh...TS will have a much easy time now for sure but in a solo army (which is what I was talking about) TS just do not have the damage or relisiance to handle DE.
Uhh. The only weapon I literally need to worry about is the disintegrator.
Grotesques and Talos I take down with Death Hex. Poison does almost nothing to me with a 2+ save.
At this point I think it is obvious he doesn't actually play any of the armies he's making broad claims about. It's incredible.
I didn't think backing up a claim like that DE are strong was necessary.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
the_scotsman wrote: With the new points values, a Helverin is 175, a rifleman dread is 120 (4 autocannons).
For the 55 points, the Helverin gets 4 wounds and a 5++ but also gets a degrading statline that includes Ballistic Skill. It gains the ability to move around and fire, and gets Damage 3 instead of Damage 2 on its gun.
So, 45% more cost, 33% more damage on average vs almost all targets, 33% more durability (45% more vs AP-3, 55% more vs AP-4), and the ability to move.
Considering the much, much easier access to buffing auras you've got in Space marines, I kind of like the dreadnought better here, for the exact same role.
Talking about traditional "close range/close combat" dreads against armiger warglaives, I definitely think there's no reason to consider the dread unless you're taking a stormraven to plop him straight into combat. Then comparing like to like the Armiger vs a CCW/multimelta dread pays 52 points (112 vs 164, 46% more) for:
-33% or more extra durability, but again degrading stats
-The sweep attack profile, since the Strike profile is identical to the dread combat arm except against T6 targets
-double the fire power between MM and melta lance thingy
Considering that I can keep my dreadnought in a plane and deliver him straight to the target turn 2, while my Armiger has to run through enemy fire to get there, and then if I charge a heavy target they perform essentially identically, I kind of like the Dread here as well.
Degrading starliner doesn't matter much. Sure, we can say that the Helviren lost 6 wounds and is shooting at BS4+ now.
If the Dread loses 6 wounds how much closer is it to dying, to the point you're not going to finish it off?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also D3 for damage is a deal breaker.
Further more you have to consider the 5++ here. Anything AT related that degrades a mini knight after saves would have killed the dread.
Yeah, my math here was slightly off - it's 53% more durable vs ap-3, which is definitely a point where the Helverin has a points efficiency advantage over the dreadnought.
I still don't think you're factoring in the differential in points that now exists - if the helverin isn't 45% better at something than the dread, it's not breaking even.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: With the new points values, a Helverin is 175, a rifleman dread is 120 (4 autocannons).
For the 55 points, the Helverin gets 4 wounds and a 5++ but also gets a degrading statline that includes Ballistic Skill. It gains the ability to move around and fire, and gets Damage 3 instead of Damage 2 on its gun.
So, 45% more cost, 33% more damage on average vs almost all targets, 33% more durability (45% more vs AP-3, 55% more vs AP-4), and the ability to move.
Considering the much, much easier access to buffing auras you've got in Space marines, I kind of like the dreadnought better here, for the exact same role.
Talking about traditional "close range/close combat" dreads against armiger warglaives, I definitely think there's no reason to consider the dread unless you're taking a stormraven to plop him straight into combat. Then comparing like to like the Armiger vs a CCW/multimelta dread pays 52 points (112 vs 164, 46% more) for:
-33% or more extra durability, but again degrading stats
-The sweep attack profile, since the Strike profile is identical to the dread combat arm except against T6 targets
-double the fire power between MM and melta lance thingy
Considering that I can keep my dreadnought in a plane and deliver him straight to the target turn 2, while my Armiger has to run through enemy fire to get there, and then if I charge a heavy target they perform essentially identically, I kind of like the Dread here as well.
Degrading starliner doesn't matter much. Sure, we can say that the Helviren lost 6 wounds and is shooting at BS4+ now.
If the Dread loses 6 wounds how much closer is it to dying, to the point you're not going to finish it off?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also D3 for damage is a deal breaker.
D3 for damage on what? The helverin autocannons?
I pointed out that for the cost differential (45%) the helverin does 33% more damage, and is only 45% more durable if you're being shot by AP-3 or more.
That's not efficient. AP-1 and AP-2 weapons do exist. and again, how many auras does being a space marine get you?
I love you went with GW logic and you price everything as though it'll be in an aura, so it's fine.
Not exactly how it works
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Looking over the list, I think Death Guard have done well out of it. Some units that bordered on being good got some tasty points drops. Blight Haulers getting a 30 pt drop is huge imo.
My Necrons are happy, though I still think we're resigned to ass tier for the foreseeable future, but we can at least bring some more interesting units.
My Primaris Crimson Fists are the big winners though. Drops across the board and the upcoming formations should give them another buff.
the_scotsman wrote: With the new points values, a Helverin is 175, a rifleman dread is 120 (4 autocannons).
For the 55 points, the Helverin gets 4 wounds and a 5++ but also gets a degrading statline that includes Ballistic Skill. It gains the ability to move around and fire, and gets Damage 3 instead of Damage 2 on its gun.
So, 45% more cost, 33% more damage on average vs almost all targets, 33% more durability (45% more vs AP-3, 55% more vs AP-4), and the ability to move.
Considering the much, much easier access to buffing auras you've got in Space marines, I kind of like the dreadnought better here, for the exact same role.
Talking about traditional "close range/close combat" dreads against armiger warglaives, I definitely think there's no reason to consider the dread unless you're taking a stormraven to plop him straight into combat. Then comparing like to like the Armiger vs a CCW/multimelta dread pays 52 points (112 vs 164, 46% more) for:
-33% or more extra durability, but again degrading stats
-The sweep attack profile, since the Strike profile is identical to the dread combat arm except against T6 targets
-double the fire power between MM and melta lance thingy
Considering that I can keep my dreadnought in a plane and deliver him straight to the target turn 2, while my Armiger has to run through enemy fire to get there, and then if I charge a heavy target they perform essentially identically, I kind of like the Dread here as well.
50% more wounds and the invuln save is more than 33% more durability in my book.
The ability to move is huge plus the extra range.
3 damage vs 2 damage is 50% more offensive power.
Degrading stats do suck though.
And the price is 50%ish percent more.
It's closer than I thought using the mortis rifle dread. For some reason marines pay 33 for the twin AC vs the FW 30 each. If the dreads had a 5++ or PoTMS I think it would be close enough but without that I don't think they are competitively viable.
Although anything standing around GMan is deadly...
Xenomancers wrote: TS? It's kinda meh...TS will have a much easy time now for sure but in a solo army (which is what I was talking about) TS just do not have the damage or relisiance to handle DE.
Uhh. The only weapon I literally need to worry about is the disintegrator.
Grotesques and Talos I take down with Death Hex. Poison does almost nothing to me with a 2+ save.
Mechanized DE gives 1kSons more trouble. 1kSons lack of high strength multi damage ranged weapons over numerous units mean raiders or venoms are difficult to deal with in large numbers. DE mobility means Princes can be easily targeted once they charge a target and sniped down, while other units quickly get out of position and too slow to keep up. (Rubrics, SOT, Tzaangors.) Now, I would say looking at butcher cannons look really attractive at popping such transports now.
Xenomancers wrote: TS? It's kinda meh...TS will have a much easy time now for sure but in a solo army (which is what I was talking about) TS just do not have the damage or relisiance to handle DE.
Uhh. The only weapon I literally need to worry about is the disintegrator.
Grotesques and Talos I take down with Death Hex. Poison does almost nothing to me with a 2+ save.
Voidravens will destroy rubrics EN MASS. 3+ mortals per model in a unit up to 10. The 2d3 str 8 ap -4 d3 damage shots + D6 shots str 7 ap -1 reroll all wounds. Posion really good against DP and Magnus though and good luck screening them - I move 19 inches with flayed skull.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 21:05:06
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 21:13:07
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Because chaos terminators get cheaper weapon options, loaylists are forced to take power fists, while chaos termies can take bargain bin power weapons.
So in short they are being taxed for the previledge to have cheap loadouts
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 21:16:33
Considering that we got the same cuts as AM without the price hike on inf so far, i can't complain, heck sentinels look nice, my pet project got improved and chimeras are finally usefull.
Even my csm rhinos got cheaper thanks to the cut on havoc launchers.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Observations looking at the Chaos changes:
Lack of changes to basic CSM means they still aren't worth using. Cultists will still be the default troop. Cultist swarms probably aren't viable, so now we'll switch to min size battalions to provide CPs for our much cheaper elite and heavy units.
Helbrutes and daemon engines have gotten such massive points drops that they may actually be worth using now. Especially if the rumor about traits being given to more units is true.
Our characters are freakin cheap. Kharn may be the most points efficient killer in the entire game.
Lack of changes to Rhinos means we're still pretty boned on transport and mobility.
Spawn might actually be good now. Bikes still not worth it. Chosen may be decent, if you can figure out a way to deliver them. Raptors could maybe work with Haarken if he turns out to be good.
The way they did the terminator changes is great for combi plas terminators, but cheapo axe + combi bolter terminators are probably too expensive still.
Overall, my prediction is that chaos's new meta will be MSU cultists + renegade knight + swarms of cheap helbrutes and daemon engines.
1ksons are a bit better off, but I doubt these point changes are enough to tip scarabs and rubrics into use. Those units really need some strats. If they get a formation later that could do it.
DG are saving a lot of points, and will probably go in the same direction as I predicted for Chaos above. Plague marines still aren't going to be worth it because bolters can't kill anything.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 21:48:57
I’m speechless about blood angels got basically no cuts on their units. Death Company are still stupid pointed. The only thing the Blood Angels have decent is smash captains they actually got cheaper with the storm shield reduction.
People seem super focused on DE not getting any changes, while I will say I expected to see a few small point increases I didn't expect anything sweeping. I think everyone is overlooking the Tau changes honestly. They got some pretty huge point reductions, they are going to catch a lot of people off guard I think. Wouldn't surprise me to see them with some high placing finishes for the next tournaments after CA. Will say there are some nice reductions for a lot of armies, and while there are still some armies lacking, this was at least steps in the right direction. Just a little worried about the going overboard with Tau, time will tell.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Observations looking at the Chaos changes:
Lack of changes to basic CSM means they still aren't worth using. Cultists will still be the default troop. Cultist swarms probably aren't viable, so now we'll switch to min size battalions to provide CPs for our much cheaper elite and heavy units.
Helbrutes and daemon engines have gotten such massive points drops that they may actually be worth using now. Especially if the rumor about traits being given to more units is true.
Our characters are freakin cheap. Kharn may be the most points efficient killer in the entire game.
Lack of changes to Rhinos means we're still pretty boned on transport and mobility.
Spawn might actually be good now. Bikes still not worth it. Chosen may be decent, if you can figure out a way to deliver them. Raptors could maybe work with Haarken if he turns out to be good.
The way they did the terminator changes is great for combi plas terminators, but cheapo axe + combi bolter terminators are probably too expensive still.
Overall, my prediction is that chaos's new meta will be MSU cultists + renegade knight + swarms of cheap helbrutes and daemon engines.
1ksons are a bit better off, but I doubt these point changes are enough to tip scarabs and rubrics into use. Those units really need some strats. If they get a formation later that could do it.
DG are saving a lot of points, and will probably go in the same direction as I predicted for Chaos above. Plague marines still aren't going to be worth it because bolters can't kill anything.
Sorry, where are you pulling these numbers from?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 21:59:49
