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w1zard wrote: Actually, ceramic makes sense for space marine armor. We have bullet resistant ceramics today that go into ballistic vests. Most ceramics also have an extremely high specific heat, which means they would be good at resisting heat transfer and be a good armor against things like plasma weapons.
I am assuming "ceramite" is some hitherto undiscovered ceramic that is extremely light, bullet resistant, and has a ridiculously high specific heat.
That is actually a lot cooler than "adamantium" a naturally occurring element that supposedly exists and is lighter and stronger than titanium, yet is not on the periodic table of elements .
adamantium its perfectly plausible that a new element could be found that is a combination of current elements, as for a a new element probably unlikely but not impossible.
A mix of metals is called an alloy, most alloys are man-made. Adamantium is explicitly described as a naturally occurring ELEMENT. It is possible that there are elements that we have not discovered yet, but their atomic mass would be so huge that it is pretty much impossible that it would be lighter than titanium. Add on to that the fact that most heavier elements tend to have a rather unstable atomic structure and be naturally radioactive means this fantasy element would be unlikely naturally occurring as well.
I much prefer my headcanon that "adamantium" is just a futuristic name for titanium, and that they have discovered an alloy of titanium and some other metal that makes it super lightweight and ridiculously hard without being brittle.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/11/26 03:04:16
w1zard wrote: I always thought a space marine weighed about 400-500KG in armor. Weighing several tons would mean they would sink into whatever ground they were standing on unless it was metal or concrete.
Its more like 1000kg + a car weighs more than that and apart from the engine its mostly frame, power armour is probably denser and the material is denser so I'd say 800kg-1200kg. Sinking into the ground wouldn't matter as their strength would mitigate that, elephants seem to do just fine, they are on 4 legs but also weigh twice as much than your average car. The heaviest man was 600kg+ so I think an astartes would weigh much more than 400kg-500kg without armour, especially with all that reinforced bone and dense fibre bundles. Plus we'd also need to know the height of an astartes which has varyied from 7.8 - 10 feet.
Cars can weigh anywhere from 1,000KG-2,000KG. Each wheel of said car probably has more surface area than the foot of a marine, and cars have four of them. If a marine weighs "several tons" meaning at least two metric tons, a marine would have more than double the ground pressure of even the heaviest modern cars.
I can see a marine weighing 1,000 KG MAX. That is being generous and assuming that the marine himself weighs something like 400 kg and the armor is super heavy (600 kg) and uses servos to assist it's own movement.
The assumption that a material has to be dense/heavy is probably what leads him to the "1000 kg power armor idea".
- and it is simply false.
A suit of PA made of a graphene the thickness of a piece of paper would be all but impervious to kinetic energy projectiles (but would fail against plasma).
Graphene the thickness of a piece of paper would be garbage armor and useless because we have a word for graphene the thickness of paper, it's called graphite. Graphene is special because of its structure at the nanoscale-scale makes it a highly useful nanomaterial because it's literally an atom thick. It is however useless for body armor applications because numerous layers of graphene is just graphite. It wouldn't even stop a sledgehammer, much less a bullet. You also NEED density and weight to get proper armor that will absorb kinetic energy. Light armor is worthless against something like autocannon or bolter fire, as it will likely demolish internal systems or wreck the wearer's body. Or falling from high altitude. Authors often describe marines as ridiculously heavy, which makes sense in all context. Especially given that FFG's weights are just as idiotic and braindead as FW's, and are obviously not true given events in the novels.
I'm pretty sure that a matrix of graphene layered with ceramite(or whatever special material is)would be an excellent kinetic & directed energy dissapator. we dont even have a roughly practical understanding of how power armour actually works and its innermost workings(physics-wise).
But either way a marine in armour is heavy.
Layered graphene does nothing because graphenes miraculous functions purely work because of its nature as an atom-thick nanomaterial. If you remove what's special about it (the traits it exhibits when an atom thick) you just have a slab of carbon that won't stop anything you throw at it. It's completely worthless in armor.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
w1zard wrote: I always thought a space marine weighed about 400-500KG in armor. Weighing several tons would mean they would sink into whatever ground they were standing on unless it was metal or concrete.
Its more like 1000kg + a car weighs more than that and apart from the engine its mostly frame, power armour is probably denser and the material is denser so I'd say 800kg-1200kg. Sinking into the ground wouldn't matter as their strength would mitigate that, elephants seem to do just fine, they are on 4 legs but also weigh twice as much than your average car. The heaviest man was 600kg+ so I think an astartes would weigh much more than 400kg-500kg without armour, especially with all that reinforced bone and dense fibre bundles. Plus we'd also need to know the height of an astartes which has varyied from 7.8 - 10 feet.
Cars can weigh anywhere from 1,000KG-2,000KG. Each wheel of said car probably has more surface area than the foot of a marine, and cars have four of them. If a marine weighs "several tons" meaning at least two metric tons, a marine would have more than double the ground pressure of even the heaviest modern cars.
I can see a marine weighing 1,000 KG MAX. That is being generous and assuming that the marine himself weighs something like 400 kg and the armor is super heavy (600 kg) and uses servos to assist it's own movement.
The assumption that a material has to be dense/heavy is probably what leads him to the "1000 kg power armor idea".
- and it is simply false.
A suit of PA made of a graphene the thickness of a piece of paper would be all but impervious to kinetic energy projectiles (but would fail against plasma).
Graphene the thickness of a piece of paper would be garbage armor and useless because we have a word for graphene the thickness of paper, it's called graphite. Graphene is special because of its structure at the nanoscale-scale makes it a highly useful nanomaterial because it's literally an atom thick. It is however useless for body armor applications because numerous layers of graphene is just graphite. It wouldn't even stop a sledgehammer, much less a bullet. You also NEED density and weight to get proper armor that will absorb kinetic energy. Light armor is worthless against something like autocannon or bolter fire, as it will likely demolish internal systems or wreck the wearer's body. Or falling from high altitude. Authors often describe marines as ridiculously heavy, which makes sense in all context. Especially given that FFG's weights are just as idiotic and braindead as FW's, and are obviously not true given events in the novels.
I'm pretty sure that a matrix of graphene layered with ceramite(or whatever special material is)would be an excellent kinetic & directed energy dissapator. we dont even have a roughly practical understanding of how power armour actually works and its innermost workings(physics-wise).
But either way a marine in armour is heavy.
Layered graphene does nothing because graphenes miraculous functions purely work because of its nature as an atom-thick nanomaterial. If you remove what's special about it (the traits it exhibits when an atom thick) you just have a slab of carbon that won't stop anything you throw at it. It's completely worthless in armor.
That is prob why they are going to use it in composite armor.
Techpriestsupport wrote: Each space marine only producing two sets of progenoids, it just doesn't seem like that would be enough to keep a chapter going what with casualties that you can't get them from, failed implants, etc.
The canon explanation is that a chapter low on progenoids will send some to the Mechanicus, who will implant one progenoid into a clone they incubate for a few years, then harvest him, put his two progenoids into two more clones to harvest four, four clones gets eight, etc.. I assume they use the Astartes sized clone bits for heavy duty servo skulls, armor decoration, soylens viridian, etc.
w1zard wrote: I always thought a space marine weighed about 400-500KG in armor. Weighing several tons would mean they would sink into whatever ground they were standing on unless it was metal or concrete.
Its more like 1000kg + a car weighs more than that and apart from the engine its mostly frame, power armour is probably denser and the material is denser so I'd say 800kg-1200kg. Sinking into the ground wouldn't matter as their strength would mitigate that, elephants seem to do just fine, they are on 4 legs but also weigh twice as much than your average car. The heaviest man was 600kg+ so I think an astartes would weigh much more than 400kg-500kg without armour, especially with all that reinforced bone and dense fibre bundles. Plus we'd also need to know the height of an astartes which has varyied from 7.8 - 10 feet.
Cars can weigh anywhere from 1,000KG-2,000KG. Each wheel of said car probably has more surface area than the foot of a marine, and cars have four of them. If a marine weighs "several tons" meaning at least two metric tons, a marine would have more than double the ground pressure of even the heaviest modern cars.
I can see a marine weighing 1,000 KG MAX. That is being generous and assuming that the marine himself weighs something like 400 kg and the armor is super heavy (600 kg) and uses servos to assist it's own movement.
The assumption that a material has to be dense/heavy is probably what leads him to the "1000 kg power armor idea".
- and it is simply false.
A suit of PA made of a graphene the thickness of a piece of paper would be all but impervious to kinetic energy projectiles (but would fail against plasma).
Graphene the thickness of a piece of paper would be garbage armor and useless because we have a word for graphene the thickness of paper, it's called graphite. Graphene is special because of its structure at the nanoscale-scale makes it a highly useful nanomaterial because it's literally an atom thick. It is however useless for body armor applications because numerous layers of graphene is just graphite. It wouldn't even stop a sledgehammer, much less a bullet. You also NEED density and weight to get proper armor that will absorb kinetic energy. Light armor is worthless against something like autocannon or bolter fire, as it will likely demolish internal systems or wreck the wearer's body. Or falling from high altitude. Authors often describe marines as ridiculously heavy, which makes sense in all context. Especially given that FFG's weights are just as idiotic and braindead as FW's, and are obviously not true given events in the novels.
I'm pretty sure that a matrix of graphene layered with ceramite(or whatever special material is)would be an excellent kinetic & directed energy dissapator. we dont even have a roughly practical understanding of how power armour actually works and its innermost workings(physics-wise).
But either way a marine in armour is heavy.
Layered graphene does nothing because graphenes miraculous functions purely work because of its nature as an atom-thick nanomaterial. If you remove what's special about it (the traits it exhibits when an atom thick) you just have a slab of carbon that won't stop anything you throw at it. It's completely worthless in armor.
That is prob why they are going to use it in composite armor.
...Based purely upon extrapolating nanomaterials and testing utterly minuscule projectiles against it that we have no reason to think will scale upwards in utility. Moreover reported by typical future tech blogs, who like all science reporting are unreliable as hell.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
I bemoan the way the SW have jumped the shark on the wolf fluff. Its become far to cartoonish for my liking but I think its was GW reacting to how popular they were becoming as a faction and they feeling they needed to play into that. They took it to far imo.
Dislike the primaris lore as well but the models are very nice. Again I think this is a case of GW reaction to customer interests. People like something so lets give them more of it. Saw this coming with the SM Centurions. Laughably bulky but hey thought you liked space marines dawg so we put one inside another space marine.
I dont have a problem with them wanting to sell new marine sculpts though. I think they were worried that if they put them out on the market without any lore people would be outraged that you're just wanting us to rebuy our old armies. You could have just said it was new wargear given to the chapters without introducing the primaris as a secret experiment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/26 17:10:15
Armies
Death Guard - 2017
Dark Eldar - 2015
Space Wolves - 2009
Orks - 2006 (sold)
Techpriestsupport wrote: Each space marine only producing two sets of progenoids, it just doesn't seem like that would be enough to keep a chapter going what with casualties that you can't get them from, failed implants, etc.
The canon explanation is that a chapter low on progenoids will send some to the Mechanicus, who will implant one progenoid into a clone they incubate for a few years, then harvest him, put his two progenoids into two more clones to harvest four, four clones gets eight, etc.. I assume they use the Astartes sized clone bits for heavy duty servo skulls, armor decoration, soylens viridian, etc.
Do you remember where this is pulled from? Because it kinda fascinates me as it's one of the more regular issues in terms of 'dying chapter' and that seems like a real convenient reason for an otherwise renegade chapter to play nice with the imperium.
[DCM]
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I was always under the impression that Progenoids could be harvested multiple times. After all, harvesting isn't the same as removing. I guess it depends whether they're harvested like Wheat, or like Apples. Or even Potatoes, where provided you leave one in the ground, the plant can be harvested again and again.
We know they're recovered at the point of death, sure. But I'm not aware that it can only be harvested at that point.
If there's clear background one way or the other, please let me know which, as this thought has been bugging me for yonks!
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w1zard wrote: I always thought a space marine weighed about 400-500KG in armor. Weighing several tons would mean they would sink into whatever ground they were standing on unless it was metal or concrete.
Its more like 1000kg + a car weighs more than that and apart from the engine its mostly frame, power armour is probably denser and the material is denser so I'd say 800kg-1200kg. Sinking into the ground wouldn't matter as their strength would mitigate that, elephants seem to do just fine, they are on 4 legs but also weigh twice as much than your average car. The heaviest man was 600kg+ so I think an astartes would weigh much more than 400kg-500kg without armour, especially with all that reinforced bone and dense fibre bundles. Plus we'd also need to know the height of an astartes which has varyied from 7.8 - 10 feet.
Cars can weigh anywhere from 1,000KG-2,000KG. Each wheel of said car probably has more surface area than the foot of a marine, and cars have four of them. If a marine weighs "several tons" meaning at least two metric tons, a marine would have more than double the ground pressure of even the heaviest modern cars.
I can see a marine weighing 1,000 KG MAX. That is being generous and assuming that the marine himself weighs something like 400 kg and the armor is super heavy (600 kg) and uses servos to assist it's own movement.
The assumption that a material has to be dense/heavy is probably what leads him to the "1000 kg power armor idea".
- and it is simply false.
A suit of PA made of a graphene the thickness of a piece of paper would be all but impervious to kinetic energy projectiles (but would fail against plasma).
Graphene the thickness of a piece of paper would be garbage armor and useless because we have a word for graphene the thickness of paper, it's called graphite. Graphene is special because of its structure at the nanoscale-scale makes it a highly useful nanomaterial because it's literally an atom thick. It is however useless for body armor applications because numerous layers of graphene is just graphite. It wouldn't even stop a sledgehammer, much less a bullet. You also NEED density and weight to get proper armor that will absorb kinetic energy. Light armor is worthless against something like autocannon or bolter fire, as it will likely demolish internal systems or wreck the wearer's body. Or falling from high altitude. Authors often describe marines as ridiculously heavy, which makes sense in all context. Especially given that FFG's weights are just as idiotic and braindead as FW's, and are obviously not true given events in the novels.
I'm pretty sure that a matrix of graphene layered with ceramite(or whatever special material is)would be an excellent kinetic & directed energy dissapator. we dont even have a roughly practical understanding of how power armour actually works and its innermost workings(physics-wise).
But either way a marine in armour is heavy.
Layered graphene does nothing because graphenes miraculous functions purely work because of its nature as an atom-thick nanomaterial. If you remove what's special about it (the traits it exhibits when an atom thick) you just have a slab of carbon that won't stop anything you throw at it. It's completely worthless in armor.
That is prob why they are going to use it in composite armor.
...Based purely upon extrapolating nanomaterials and testing utterly minuscule projectiles against it that we have no reason to think will scale upwards in utility. Moreover reported by typical future tech blogs, who like all science reporting are unreliable as hell.
There is already nanotube body armor on the market.
And though I am not a physicist, there is written plenty on the subject. Lets see what the future holds. It's still new tech.
Techpriestsupport wrote: Each space marine only producing two sets of progenoids, it just doesn't seem like that would be enough to keep a chapter going what with casualties that you can't get them from, failed implants, etc.
The canon explanation is that a chapter low on progenoids will send some to the Mechanicus, who will implant one progenoid into a clone they incubate for a few years, then harvest him, put his two progenoids into two more clones to harvest four, four clones gets eight, etc.. I assume they use the Astartes sized clone bits for heavy duty servo skulls, armor decoration, soylens viridian, etc.
Do you have a source?
It's just that the neck glands takes 5 years to develop, and the chest gland 10 years.
Mabye you are thinking of the new primaris marines?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/27 12:19:43
I'll keep an eye for my source. I don't remember exactly where I've read it. I've got the main rule books up through 5th Ed, the codices for same, Some of the weird pamphlet sized codices from 2nd or 3rd, a ton of Black Industries and FFG roleplay books, a lot of White Dwarfs and Infernos, every BL novel up until about Fear to Tread...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I feel like it was in 2nd or 3rd edition, when the fluff was darker and less focused on factions as distinct entities..?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some moderate googling says the fluff was published in an old Index Astartes article, the clones were called test-slaves(?), and it took about 55 years to create 1000 marines.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/28 06:19:21
Frontline989 wrote: I don't know if this applies but I always hated how many marines go into battle without a helmet. Makes no sense.
To me, it's even more stupid for SoB. Why wear a power armor if its to leave your very fragile human head, the most important part of your body, exposed. It's also very stupid for Marines, but at least they are a bit tougher and thick skull. I get that for some character it can fulfill a modeling purpose (at least that's how I rationalise it personaly).
That's all about visuals. You need something to differentiate your higher ranks. Plus helmets get boring pretty quickly. As purely a painter/Modeller, I rarely paint a model with a helmet.
I think that's something you have to suspend your disbelief on.
Frontline989 wrote: I don't know if this applies but I always hated how many marines go into battle without a helmet. Makes no sense.
Depends on the army, it actually has happened similarly in real life, look up the P51b Mustang Razorback, the armour was removed from behind the pilot’s head in favour of a bubble canopy that provided more visibility at the request of pilots.
Space Marines, especially the Space Wolves have enhanced senses from when they were human, Space Wolves’ hearing and smell is better than what the helmet’s auto-sensor offer, suggesting that the only times the helmet is useful to them are impact and environment protection like oxygen devoid scenarios.
Other than that COs not wearing helmets for the sake of their troop’s spirits is an almost infinite supply of amusement like memes.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Frontline989 wrote: I don't know if this applies but I always hated how many marines go into battle without a helmet. Makes no sense.
Depends on the army, it actually has happened similarly in real life, look up the P51b Mustang Razorback, the armour was removed from behind the pilot’s head in favour of a bubble canopy that provided more visibility at the request of pilots.
Space Marines, especially the Space Wolves have enhanced senses from when they were human, Space Wolves’ hearing and smell is better than what the helmet’s auto-sensor offer, suggesting that the only times the helmet is useful to them are impact and environment protection like oxygen devoid scenarios.
Other than that COs not wearing helmets for the sake of their troop’s spirits is an almost infinite supply of amusement like memes.
Yeah, but is the loss of protection worth the added visibility and sense of battlefield awareness? Especially since one las-bolt to the head could end it all? That seems like introducing a huge weakness into a suit of otherwise strong armor for dubious benefit.
IRL if you are in the military and are near any kind of combat situation you will get chewed out by literally everyone if you take your helmet off.
Frontline989 wrote: I don't know if this applies but I always hated how many marines go into battle without a helmet. Makes no sense.
Depends on the army, it actually has happened similarly in real life, look up the P51b Mustang Razorback, the armour was removed from behind the pilot’s head in favour of a bubble canopy that provided more visibility at the request of pilots.
Space Marines, especially the Space Wolves have enhanced senses from when they were human, Space Wolves’ hearing and smell is better than what the helmet’s auto-sensor offer, suggesting that the only times the helmet is useful to them are impact and environment protection like oxygen devoid scenarios.
Other than that COs not wearing helmets for the sake of their troop’s spirits is an almost infinite supply of amusement like memes.
Yeah, but is the loss of protection worth the added visibility and sense of battlefield awareness? Especially since one las-bolt to the head could end it all? That seems like introducing a huge weakness into a suit of otherwise strong armor for dubious benefit.
IRL if you are in the military and are near any kind of combat situation you will get chewed out by literally everyone if you take your helmet off.
The most important part of your body is your head, leave the helmet off, you might get a little more than a breeze.
The constant, unending focus on Imperium (SM) vs Chaos (CSM).
It would be nice if GW remembered that other factions can also be a legitimate threat in the current setting. It would be nice if other factions had a focus once in a while outside of their codexes.
I find some of the stories eye-rollingly cliche. Take the latest Vigilus short story for example, I think it was titled 'Desperate Measures'. Now with a title like that I would think that the story would show how the Imperium is forced to take measures that it deems inappropriate or even heretical to defeat the foe. Perhaps there's a level of self sacrifice really lending itself to the desperation of the situation on Vigilus. Instead it's a lovely story about a bunch of Reivers who go for a nice jolly with their Imperial Guard pals and with a 5 man team manage to destroy an Ork Gargant without suffering a single casualty. The most 'desperate' measure I managed to glean from the story was that the poor Reivers were forced to travel in a Valkyrie with mere human pilots. Woop de bloody do. What sacrifices those poor super humans had to make for the sake of the Imperium! The edgy comment by the pilot at the end of the story really did it for me. That's when I thought to myself "this is fething awful'.
That story is a good description of much of the lore. Though there's a lot of good stuff that is a lot darker I think it tends to be older stuff and generally consigned to codexes.
Frontline989 wrote: I don't know if this applies but I always hated how many marines go into battle without a helmet. Makes no sense.
Depends on the army, it actually has happened similarly in real life, look up the P51b Mustang Razorback, the armour was removed from behind the pilot’s head in favour of a bubble canopy that provided more visibility at the request of pilots.
Space Marines, especially the Space Wolves have enhanced senses from when they were human, Space Wolves’ hearing and smell is better than what the helmet’s auto-sensor offer, suggesting that the only times the helmet is useful to them are impact and environment protection like oxygen devoid scenarios.
Other than that COs not wearing helmets for the sake of their troop’s spirits is an almost infinite supply of amusement like memes.
Yeah, but is the loss of protection worth the added visibility and sense of battlefield awareness? Especially since one las-bolt to the head could end it all? That seems like introducing a huge weakness into a suit of otherwise strong armor for dubious benefit.
IRL if you are in the military and are near any kind of combat situation you will get chewed out by literally everyone if you take your helmet off.
The Razorback Mustang happened in real life.
If protection impedes your ability to avoid conflict you ditch it.
Another thing that the helmet impedes would be the Venom spitting ability.
Besides, who is going to chew out a Space Marine CO?
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
the military man in me agrees with the point about lack of helmets. the modeller prefers unhelmed models.
lore wise I feel that even though SM have altered biology, common sense would say that battle situations would require helmets in most cases, especially considering that they could be thrust into any number of hazardous environments in short notice. Even during void war, theres always a risk of a hull breach dragging them into space for example. There would be special cases where helmets might be an impediment and therefore not used (not dissimilar to modern day SF who usually dont wear standard uniform and often wear either cut down helmets, or none at all.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/29 09:57:35
Dakka Wolf wrote: The Razorback Mustang happened in real life.
If protection impedes your ability to avoid conflict you ditch it.
True, but a bit of seat isn't going to stop a 20mm aircraft bullet from blowing your head off. In this instance it is trading a small amount of survivability for a massive increase in situational awareness (being able to look over your shoulder is huge for a pilot).
A space marine helmet is perfectly capable of stopping a lasbolt or even a bolter shell that might otherwise kill the marine outright. In this instance it is trading a large amount of survivability for a small increase in situational awareness, or maybe even less situational awareness! (considering we know space marine helmets have audio systems so hearing is not impaired, and they also have lenses that allow them to see in infared and other such things).
There's some stuff in a novel about the World Eaters where the World Eaters present all wear their helmets with the notion that taking off your helmet is something only Space Wolves and other idiots would do. There's also plenty about Space Marines ditching badly damaged helmets so they can see.
There is also the matter of combat communications. All the comms systems are in the helmet right so you'd loose the ability to receive command orders. Unless there is one assigned marine who's job it is to relay communications to the squad but that seems like an inefficient way to go about things.
Armies
Death Guard - 2017
Dark Eldar - 2015
Space Wolves - 2009
Orks - 2006 (sold)
Are people new to fiction or something? Important characters never wear helmets. That is not really a piece of 40k lore, it is universal. It doesn't make much realistic sense, it is just an artistic convention (just like the exaggerated size of weapons).
Apart from Cawl and the new Primaris fluff, I really dislike the fluff about Space Marine recruitment practices. It makes no logical sense and in reality would result in absolutely horrible recruits and a total mess of an army rather than supersoldiers. The only Chapter to have a somewhat sensible recruitment process are the Ultramarines, apparently the only Space Marines smart enough to realise that education is essential for fostering good, capable recruits.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/29 20:37:28
A thing I find absolutly ridiculous is the idea that a single Space Marine can duel and kill a Hive Tyrant or even the Swarmlord, a hive tyrant who is basically the equivalent of what Abbadon or Calgar are to Space Marines. Many people are arms up in the air at the idea that an heroic human can duel and kill a Space Marine, let alone an heroic one, and win (or at least put up a good fight). While this is indeed something exceptional, the gap in power between a Space Marine and a Hive Tyrant is immense compared to the gap in power between a human and a Space Marine. It's about as believable as a gretchin killing a Space Marine in duel. A Hive Tyrant is a 20-30 feet tall monster evolved to be the pinnacle of killing organism, constantly improved by the genes and tactics learned over the eons of the Tyranid race destroying civilisation. Plus, Hive Tyrants are all powerful psykers who operate in a theatre where the enemy's psyker, which are weaker most of the time in the first place are weakenned further or even driven to insanity. Seriously, a Hive Tyrant, let alone the Swrmlord should only be defeated by groups of Space Marines or others. The only thing that could challenge them in duel, and even then not guarantied a victory, would be Greater Daemon, Daemon Prince, Avatars and maybe ancient dreadnaught, wraithlord, etc.
epronovost wrote: A thing I find absolutly ridiculous is the idea that a single Space Marine can duel and kill a Hive Tyrant or even the Swarmlord, a hive tyrant who is basically the equivalent of what Abbadon or Calgar are to Space Marines. Many people are arms up in the air at the idea that an heroic human can duel and kill a Space Marine, let alone an heroic one, and win (or at least put up a good fight). While this is indeed something exceptional, the gap in power between a Space Marine and a Hive Tyrant is immense compared to the gap in power between a human and a Space Marine. It's about as believable as a gretchin killing a Space Marine in duel. A Hive Tyrant is a 20-30 feet tall monster evolved to be the pinnacle of killing organism, constantly improved by the genes and tactics learned over the eons of the Tyranid race destroying civilisation. Plus, Hive Tyrants are all powerful psykers who operate in a theatre where the enemy's psyker, which are weaker most of the time in the first place are weakenned further or even driven to insanity. Seriously, a Hive Tyrant, let alone the Swrmlord should only be defeated by groups of Space Marines or others. The only thing that could challenge them in duel, and even then not guarantied a victory, would be Greater Daemon, Daemon Prince, Avatars and maybe ancient dreadnaught, wraithlord, etc.
That's giving either the SM not enuff credit or the Nid too much. Remember mass has real effects on what something is physically able to do. I could see a single marine taking on a hive tyrant. now whether or not it would actually happen is another thing. A couple of well placed bolter rounds or a grenade would spell the end of the tyrant. granted all the nid needs to do is land one successful strike and the marine is toast. If we are talking tabletop it's one thing, fluff is another. it'll really depend on the point of view from the author.
epronovost wrote: A thing I find absolutly ridiculous is the idea that a single Space Marine can duel and kill a Hive Tyrant or even the Swarmlord, a hive tyrant who is basically the equivalent of what Abbadon or Calgar are to Space Marines. Many people are arms up in the air at the idea that an heroic human can duel and kill a Space Marine, let alone an heroic one, and win (or at least put up a good fight). While this is indeed something exceptional, the gap in power between a Space Marine and a Hive Tyrant is immense compared to the gap in power between a human and a Space Marine. It's about as believable as a gretchin killing a Space Marine in duel. A Hive Tyrant is a 20-30 feet tall monster evolved to be the pinnacle of killing organism, constantly improved by the genes and tactics learned over the eons of the Tyranid race destroying civilisation. Plus, Hive Tyrants are all powerful psykers who operate in a theatre where the enemy's psyker, which are weaker most of the time in the first place are weakenned further or even driven to insanity. Seriously, a Hive Tyrant, let alone the Swrmlord should only be defeated by groups of Space Marines or others. The only thing that could challenge them in duel, and even then not guarantied a victory, would be Greater Daemon, Daemon Prince, Avatars and maybe ancient dreadnaught, wraithlord, etc.
Depends on the space marine. A captain or chapter master definitely would be able to fight a hive tyrant, and stand a decent shot at winning. A regular battle brother, not so much.
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