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If you just want protection turn 1, why not use a Wazbom? Huge KFF bubble thanks to its wing span. If they shoot it off the board they’ll have wasted a bunch of their anti tank on it instead of your buggies.

It’s definitely more pricy at 161, but if it survives, it’s not deadweight like a big Mek.

That's a fair alternative, but it can be hard to find 161 points in your Mech list, and I'm not sure if it'd be worth taking if the whole point is "improve a 6++ to a 5++". If you already have sufficient anti-armor (and, let's be real, you're gonna have a SSAG, MSJ, and probably some other stuff too), you might not want to include a redundant choice.

Regarding the Mek Gun, I am rather sure I saw on this forum that they increased 2 points in CA19 (in a summary before the book was released), but recently I saw a screenshot of CA19 there they still cost 15. What is correct?

I just never want to take a Big Mek. SAGs, Weirdboys, and my Biker Boss all take priority over the slot, and I am generally pushing toward a 2 bat + outrider/spearhead style right now anyway (5 HQs).

Honestly, unless you're planning to use the Force Field strat, his KFF range is pathetic, and definitely won't do much for your buggies. You don't want them all jammed pack in case they explode.

But yeah, you might be able to scrimp and just not bother with a KFF. Prepared positions gives you a 3+ save turn 1 anyway, which is only worse against ap-3 than the KFF anyway. Otherwise, I think the Wazbom is probably the best bang for your buck. MA Big Mek is terrible, FW Dread is cool but probably not worth it, and Morkanaut is fine but quite expensive (double the Wazbom) so it's taking up a huge chunk of your army.

Nora wrote:
Regarding the Mek Gun, I am rather sure I saw on this forum that they increased 2 points in CA19 (in a summary before the book was released), but recently I saw a screenshot of CA19 there they still cost 15. What is correct?

I believe it was the Smasha that went up 2, not the Mek Guns themselves.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Nora wrote:
Regarding the Mek Gun, I am rather sure I saw on this forum that they increased 2 points in CA19 (in a summary before the book was released), but recently I saw a screenshot of CA19 there they still cost 15. What is correct?

I believe it was the Smasha that went up 2, not the Mek Guns themselves.

This.

 Emicrania wrote:
Jid how do you achieve a first turn charge? Specialist detachment and advance strat?

Exactly, for 2 CP you advance 28" and then charge. In my games, sending the wartrike with nitro grot after them works better than the warboss, just make sure to get it out of there T2 so it doesn't get splatted when the bikers die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
- Boomdakka Snazzwagon. I really gave it a chance, twice even. However, it's just a KBB with worse guns that gets even worse when advancing.

Curse you Jid! I have literally just started painting one!

I suppose I could run it as another Buggy, an extra KBB perhaps?

I just run mine as KBB - they have really similar guns and the molotov cocktails just become burna exhausts.

I like the inherent -1 to hit and 4+ explosion, does it have ANY play? If I just charge it up-field and expect nothing, will I potentially be pleasantly surprised?

KBB are usually the last buggies to go, as SJD and scrapjets just telegraph much more threat, so it doesn't act as an extra deterrent anyways.
In general a snazzwagon just stays alive until the enemy runs out of other things to shoot, because it doesn't threaten anything.
The advantage of a 4+ explosion gets neutralized by random explosion range, 1-2" explosions are basically the same as not exploding. On the other hand, buggies tend to clump up, so explosions backfire easily.

We are kind of pigeonholed into taking Weirdboys (for MW output)

I'm still experimenting whether I can substitute weirdboyz with ramming speed and spiked rams - weird boyz have the same problem as other foot characters of getting left behind in the dust, opening it up for easy assassination from some fast shooting unit. Next game, I'll just try casting da jump on himself and see how that goes.

so I always figure one or two Boyz squads to jump up and scare opponents can be well utilised

In my experience, warbikers, wartrike, koptas and warboss racing towards them already scares the gak out of people, especially when you follow up with a pretty impressive shooting phase for ork standards. Getting two buggies and 10 gretchin is always better than getting 30 boyz.

Spiked ram spam has some play in regards to MW output. It obviously depends on the amount of MWs you need to cause but having 2/3/4 buggies charging in to cause MWs can really help delete dangerous stuff you don't want fighting you back. This is also where rammin' speed might help if you realise the MWs from the rams might not do the trick. Just last game I killed Belakor like that (someone orks really don't want to fight in CC). Stuff like wulfen, assuming you couldn't kill them in the shooting phase, are also prime targets since they get to fight after they die in the fight phase and this happens in the charge phase.

With bad rolls you can end up screwing yourself over with the spiked rams, so there is risk involved. Other than the skrapjet, none of them really want to be in CC so you might end up putting them in a suicide position/losing their shooting next turn.

And yes, AAE, while the boomdakka snazzwagon is an amazing model it has very few redeeming features in comparison to the KBB. Try it out, but running it as a KBB has never been an issue for me..

Cheers Jid, Pina. It's just depressing when you spend hours on a model, painting bits no-one but me will ever see, then hear it has no play Ah well, I'll give it a run and see if I can't force explosions out of people (throw it into melee or park it on an objective or something).

Worst comes to worst it's a second KBB. Not that I'm particularly impressed with that model. I've had many a round of doing 0 damage with its rivet gun. Though admittedly I run it as ES because I enjoy the +3" movement (with advance) to get anywhere I want to go.

I mean, you could probably try using it to hold objectives since it's offensively weak but defensively fairly strong for its points. The problem I have with it is that the mek speshul should either by 12 shots or S6 since right now it's really not worth getting 3 extra shots at much worse stats in comparison to the KBB.

I literally think the burna bottles have never done anything for me and the stack up horribly against the burna exhausts IMO, even if they do ignore cover. I really don't think it's a terrible buggy but I just struggle to see what upside it has when the KBB exists. -1 to hit is great but the buggy is just so non-threatening that it'll never be shot at unless it's the only viable option..

The speshul should be dealing 2 damage like snazzguns which clearly inspired it. It would instantly redeem the snazzwagon as viable choice.

That or have a proper machine-gun like the advertisement bragged about

"Any Ork boss can tell you that one of the most important tasks to perform early in battle is the removal of chaff units – those units deployed to distract from and shield the opponent’s tactically significant targets. If you can’t do this fast enough, then you’ll find your army quickly crumbling away until you have nothing sufficiently killy left with which to destroy your opponent’s big stuff. "

Nothing with that low a RoF, hitting on 5s is going to clear chaff. If we were marines and basically auto-hit, sure 9 AP2 shots will put some hurt on things...were orks its more like 2-4 hits at best.

It trades too much offensive power compared to the KBB for that -1 to hit. Who cares about it when it isnt really a threat in the first place? Ive tried to use it and its always ignored, but unlike Killakanz it doesnt have much of a potential to shred things if theyre dumb enough to ignore it.
Yeah the -1 makes people decide to not fire at it even if its in optimal range i'll admit, but its more "why would i fire at a subpar unit with -1 which i can hit with 90% of my shots against something thats actually a threat w/o the -1?"

It and the squigbuggy need a redesign. I think going below 75pts for the chassis would be approaching "too cheap" territory for how durable they are. And even at 75pts, i'd still spend the extra 5 for KBBs (hypothetical)
(Funny bit about the squigbuggy apparently the article actually claimed it to be a proper battletank....wut?)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
That or have a proper machine-gun like the advertisement bragged about

"Any Ork boss can tell you that one of the most important tasks to perform early in battle is the removal of chaff units – those units deployed to distract from and shield the opponent’s tactically significant targets. If you can’t do this fast enough, then you’ll find your army quickly crumbling away until you have nothing sufficiently killy left with which to destroy your opponent’s big stuff. "

The fun part about the buggy list is that you actually don't give a damn about chaff - you just drive up to said chaff and blow the stuff behind it to pieces.

It and the squigbuggy need a redesign. I think going below 75pts for the chassis would be approaching "too cheap" territory for how durable they are. And even at 75pts, i'd still spend the extra 5 for KBBs (hypothetical)
(Funny bit about the squigbuggy apparently the article actually claimed it to be a proper battletank....wut?)

Yeah, not too sure about the squigbuggy. I'm going to buy the model and give it a spin eventually, but if it performs as the theory expects, I'll just proxy it as scrapjet.

Other 2 buggies seem meh, but that's okay. 3/5 is better than most armies can ask for.

Pretty sure I'm going to pickup a second SJD.

It niches itself into areas where the MSJ can fall off because of the d6 re-rollable damage roll (obvious Death Skulls). It also will tend to have less of a target priority because the MSJ is generally more threatening.

I honestly think the right buggy heavy list will place somewhere. It seems good enough and people are starting to figure out how to prevent opponent secondaries (You give up Big Game Hunter, but you might be able to deny the other 2 easily), and it gets around existing anti-Ork tech.

Personally I'd rather not the mek speshul become D2 over more shots/better precision/S6 etc. It doesn't need to become even more like the KBB and a pure chaff clearer would be cool as a buggy. If it got +1 to hit rolls assuming all weapons fired at the same target (like a dakkajet, although range on burna bottles makes it a lot trickier) that'd be cool.

The squigbuggy just needs the squigs' stats to be boosted a lot, considering it's really tough to define how deadly a launched squid is that shouldn't be tough to sell IMO. The bile squig should be AP-1 and have the butcher cannon rule where the unit takes an additional -2 to their morale if they sustained any casualties. The bitey squig should be d3/2d3 shots D3 instead of D2 and the boom squig should be 3/6 shots D2 instead of Dd3.

It's also faster and more reliable - while you can expect a SJD to take out a TF cannon, shooting one with a scrapjet is more of a gamble. However, the scrapjet is better at taking chunks of high wound targets (especially with invulnerable saves), and works just fine for blowing up bikes, primaris and other 2W or 3W units.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's also faster and more reliable - while you can expect a SJD to take out a TF cannon, shooting one with a scrapjet is more of a gamble. However, the scrapjet is better at taking chunks of high wound targets (especially with invulnerable saves), and works just fine for blowing up bikes, primaris and other 2W or 3W units.

I think a good buggy list will have a nice mix of all 3, but yeah, MSJ is definitely the best all around buggy, hands down.

Although it's probably weighted on the MSJ and KBB. I have 2/1/2 of MSJ/SJD/KBB, if I feel inspired (and if it fits in a list I like), I might move it up to 3/2/3.

Be aware that Buggy heavy lists tend to suffer when there's an abundance of terrain. They have exceptionally large bases, so in, say, a city-scape you'll be rolling single-file through a lot of areas.

My suggestion would be to add some Koptaz or Flyers, so you can cover your options a bit better if you play on one of those boards. Or even some Bikers, if you're feeling froggy.

 flandarz wrote:
Be aware that Buggy heavy lists tend to suffer when there's an abundance of terrain. They have exceptionally large bases, so in, say, a city-scape you'll be rolling single-file through a lot of areas.

My suggestion would be to add some Koptaz or Flyers, so you can cover your options a bit better if you play on one of those boards. Or even some Bikers, if you're feeling froggy.

Totally agree. Although honestly, fielding all 8 of those buggies is only 744 points.

My 2000 boilerplate right now is 770 points (2 Bats, 1 Outrider), which is 60 grots, 2 weirdboys, 2 SAGs, 1 Warbike Boss, 2 KBB, 1 Big Shoota Deff Kopta. I could easily swap this to 2 Bats, spearhead which would drop the points to 679 if I took 3 individual Mek Guns w/ Smashas. (but does not include the KBBs, obviously).

That + those buggies is 1354 points (as I have 2 KBB as part of my outrider). With 646 points, I can actually bring a surprising amount of stuff on top of it. I could easily drop the Deff Kopta on top and make it so all 3 of my KBB are in that slot, squeezing 50 points if I don't particularly want the kopta.

Basically: It seems crazy expensive, but our buggies are bloody inexpensive. I love them. You are right, though. Last game I was in a city fight with lots of terrain, and I got bogged down a bit. Still workable, though.

For ex with quick math: I think I could take 4 Rokkit Koptas, 1 Wazbom w/ KFF, and a full Biker squad w/ Kill saw Nob and have all 8 of those buggies.

So quick question for those running buggy lists: have any of you played in a tournament/competitive scene? How did your list do?

Cheers!

(I've been a long time lurker on this site and finally decided to jump in and get an account)

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
So quick question for those running buggy lists: have any of you played in a tournament/competitive scene? How did your list do?

Cheers!

(I've been a long time lurker on this site and finally decided to jump in and get an account)

I recommend reading this guy's blog. He was featured on goonhammer.

He's been bringing a buggy heavy list to ITC and has placed as high as 9th. And this was BEFORE CA where it got even cheaper.

https://greentitangaming.blogspot.com/2019/11/best-ork-list-and-alliance-open-dutch.html

@Tulun Cheers!

tulun wrote:

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
So quick question for those running buggy lists: have any of you played in a tournament/competitive scene? How did your list do?

Cheers!

(I've been a long time lurker on this site and finally decided to jump in and get an account)

I recommend reading this guy's blog. He was featured on goonhammer.

He's been bringing a buggy heavy list to ITC and has placed as high as 9th. And this was BEFORE CA where it got even cheaper.

https://greentitangaming.blogspot.com/2019/11/best-ork-list-and-alliance-open-dutch.html

This is super interesting thanks for sharing. I wonder if meganobz or trukkboyz can find any spots in these types of lists

On the question of Mortal wound spam, I would like to jokingly point out something I did at my last game. While my Tau opponent wasn't bringing the cheesiest of cheese he was still borderline tournament level.

Turn 1 almost my entire army hid in cover and out of LOS, still lost 3 mek gunz though :(

Turn 2 I had a bonebreaker brigade show up via deepstrike and rammed them into 3 separate targets. 1 of them was able to charge and consolidate into range of 3 Broadsides, 3 units of firewarriors and his Warlord. I was able to do significant damage to 1 of his Broadsides and was alive on turn 3 at the start of my movement phase when.....I reminded my opponent that the Bonebreaker currently in CC with a lot of his units also contained a Warboss equipped with.....Rezmekka's Redder armor. And since he had not 1, not 2 but 9 units in 1' proximity to my Transport I would be rolling once per unit and on a 4+ would be inflicting D3 mortal wounds The look of horror on his face was priceless. In the end I did something ridiculous like 12 Mortal wounds, killing one of his broadsides and finishing off his HQ in the next fight phase.

You crazy son of a gun, you did it! I tried to make rezmekkas redder armour work forever and the most I ever got out of it was like 3 MWs to some chaff unit.

SemperMortis wrote:
On the question of Mortal wound spam, I would like to jokingly point out something I did at my last game. While my Tau opponent wasn't bringing the cheesiest of cheese he was still borderline tournament level.

Turn 1 almost my entire army hid in cover and out of LOS, still lost 3 mek gunz though :(

Turn 2 I had a bonebreaker brigade show up via deepstrike and rammed them into 3 separate targets. 1 of them was able to charge and consolidate into range of 3 Broadsides, 3 units of firewarriors and his Warlord. I was able to do significant damage to 1 of his Broadsides and was alive on turn 3 at the start of my movement phase when.....I reminded my opponent that the Bonebreaker currently in CC with a lot of his units also contained a Warboss equipped with.....Rezmekka's Redder armor. And since he had not 1, not 2 but 9 units in 1' proximity to my Transport I would be rolling once per unit and on a 4+ would be inflicting D3 mortal wounds The look of horror on his face was priceless. In the end I did something ridiculous like 12 Mortal wounds, killing one of his broadsides and finishing off his HQ in the next fight phase.

Hah, congrats on that

SemperMortis wrote:
On the question of Mortal wound spam, I would like to jokingly point out something I did at my last game. While my Tau opponent wasn't bringing the cheesiest of cheese he was still borderline tournament level.

Turn 1 almost my entire army hid in cover and out of LOS, still lost 3 mek gunz though :(

Turn 2 I had a bonebreaker brigade show up via deepstrike and rammed them into 3 separate targets. 1 of them was able to charge and consolidate into range of 3 Broadsides, 3 units of firewarriors and his Warlord. I was able to do significant damage to 1 of his Broadsides and was alive on turn 3 at the start of my movement phase when.....I reminded my opponent that the Bonebreaker currently in CC with a lot of his units also contained a Warboss equipped with.....Rezmekka's Redder armor. And since he had not 1, not 2 but 9 units in 1' proximity to my Transport I would be rolling once per unit and on a 4+ would be inflicting D3 mortal wounds The look of horror on his face was priceless. In the end I did something ridiculous like 12 Mortal wounds, killing one of his broadsides and finishing off his HQ in the next fight phase.

There is a better version of that, at least in terms of MW. Use a squiggorth instead of the bonebreaker. Less attacks 5 vs 6+d6 but -3 vs -2 and damage 1d6 vs 2. AND at 2+ 1d3 MW to ANY unit at 1".

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
On the question of Mortal wound spam, I would like to jokingly point out something I did at my last game. While my Tau opponent wasn't bringing the cheesiest of cheese he was still borderline tournament level.

Turn 1 almost my entire army hid in cover and out of LOS, still lost 3 mek gunz though :(

Turn 2 I had a bonebreaker brigade show up via deepstrike and rammed them into 3 separate targets. 1 of them was able to charge and consolidate into range of 3 Broadsides, 3 units of firewarriors and his Warlord. I was able to do significant damage to 1 of his Broadsides and was alive on turn 3 at the start of my movement phase when.....I reminded my opponent that the Bonebreaker currently in CC with a lot of his units also contained a Warboss equipped with.....Rezmekka's Redder armor. And since he had not 1, not 2 but 9 units in 1' proximity to my Transport I would be rolling once per unit and on a 4+ would be inflicting D3 mortal wounds The look of horror on his face was priceless. In the end I did something ridiculous like 12 Mortal wounds, killing one of his broadsides and finishing off his HQ in the next fight phase.

There is a better version of that, at least in terms of MW. Use a squiggorth instead of the bonebreaker. Less attacks 5 vs 6+d6 but -3 vs -2 and damage 1d6 vs 2. AND at 2+ 1d3 MW to ANY unit at 1".

Style points.

Weirdly about the Squiggoth:
Baby Squig is not <CLAN> locked for units, unlike the Garg Squig.

Because it's not a vehicle technically, you gotta gamble on the charge and not use the 3d6" charge strat, so it's probably gotta be Evil Suns to make it consistent enough.

You could toss in something like Flash Gits and not care the unit is in combat, as they can shoot out of the howdah.

But if you pulled that off, it would be a riot. Baby squigs too are like 160 points. Shame the bonebreaker (otherwise) is just objectively better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To those that use bonebreakers, do you often fill them up?

I kind of like the idea of just having one deep strike -> charge in and disrupt the lines. Seems like filling up the vehicle just eats into your points...

I guess you could just half fill it with like 6 Nobs or something, that would be enough to disrupt the enemy.

tulun wrote:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
On the question of Mortal wound spam, I would like to jokingly point out something I did at my last game. While my Tau opponent wasn't bringing the cheesiest of cheese he was still borderline tournament level.

Turn 1 almost my entire army hid in cover and out of LOS, still lost 3 mek gunz though :(

Turn 2 I had a bonebreaker brigade show up via deepstrike and rammed them into 3 separate targets. 1 of them was able to charge and consolidate into range of 3 Broadsides, 3 units of firewarriors and his Warlord. I was able to do significant damage to 1 of his Broadsides and was alive on turn 3 at the start of my movement phase when.....I reminded my opponent that the Bonebreaker currently in CC with a lot of his units also contained a Warboss equipped with.....Rezmekka's Redder armor. And since he had not 1, not 2 but 9 units in 1' proximity to my Transport I would be rolling once per unit and on a 4+ would be inflicting D3 mortal wounds The look of horror on his face was priceless. In the end I did something ridiculous like 12 Mortal wounds, killing one of his broadsides and finishing off his HQ in the next fight phase.

There is a better version of that, at least in terms of MW. Use a squiggorth instead of the bonebreaker. Less attacks 5 vs 6+d6 but -3 vs -2 and damage 1d6 vs 2. AND at 2+ 1d3 MW to ANY unit at 1".

Style points.

Weirdly about the Squiggoth:
Baby Squig is not <CLAN> locked for units, unlike the Garg Squig.

Because it's not a vehicle technically, you gotta gamble on the charge and not use the 3d6" charge strat, so it's probably gotta be Evil Suns to make it consistent enough.

You could toss in something like Flash Gits and not care the unit is in combat, as they can shoot out of the howdah.

But if you pulled that off, it would be a riot. Baby squigs too are like 160 points. Shame the bonebreaker (otherwise) is just objectively better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To those that use bonebreakers, do you often fill them up?

I kind of like the idea of just having one deep strike -> charge in and disrupt the lines. Seems like filling up the vehicle just eats into your points...

I guess you could just half fill it with like 6 Nobs or something, that would be enough to disrupt the enemy.

I mean...I never use them in tournaments and competitive games but when I am playing for fun...yeah. I load up 3 wagonz with boyz in them and a few characters and tellyporta strike them. 1 is almost guaranteed to get in and the other 2 have a good chance to get in. Turn 3 they disgorge their troops who then bum rush in and start hacking and slashing anything that is nearby.

 flandarz wrote:
Be aware that Buggy heavy lists tend to suffer when there's an abundance of terrain. They have exceptionally large bases, so in, say, a city-scape you'll be rolling single-file through a lot of areas.

My suggestion would be to add some Koptaz or Flyers, so you can cover your options a bit better if you play on one of those boards. Or even some Bikers, if you're feeling froggy.

Certainly explaining part of my poor experience with them(that and not trying with CA prices). Here we have generally lots of terrain to ensure you can't alpha strike too easily. Makes those bases tricky to fit.

OTOH one can usually hide half a dozen of those from being alpha striked.