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2020/01/29 21:28:43
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I'd probably just straight up mimic Jeff Poole's Ork list. The only thing Id say is that this looks exactly like the previous lists Orks fielded before marines showed up, swapping Lootas for Gits.
I think you should drop the gits (as much as I like Flash Gitz) add another unit of Boys and Mad Dok, if you wanna go all in on the style they seemed to be piloting. Jeff had 4 units of boys and just maxed out the Tankbustas with bomb squigs.
At the very least, take 4th unit of boys.
I was wondering if trying out Mad Dok was worth it, but I'm scared it will eat up so much time saving that is gonna be counter productive.
Even if I think you are right, im scared I will have an aneurysm playin 120 Boyd at a GT, 90 is gonna be already a stretch
2020/01/30 00:02:44
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I was wondering if trying out Mad Dok was worth it, but I'm scared it will eat up so much time saving that is gonna be counter productive.
Even if I think you are right, im scared I will have an aneurysm playin 120 Boyd at a GT, 90 is gonna be already a stretch
I hear ya. It'll probably be really tolling.
I'm just not sure you're really going into the strat unless you are pushing that 4th+ squad. Birdsong and Poole were sporting Mad Dok and Birdsong even had 5+ Boy squads if I recall (and a lot more gretchin).
It's up to you. But I think we already know how the ~90 boy list does.
I wish I could dig it up, but Liam Hackett apparently took a bunch of grots / 30 Flash gits to Cancon and did well. But I'm not sure of the exact comp, other than a bunch of the grots were freebootas for shields.
2020/01/30 00:17:51
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones
Except when you go to the top competitive event in the world, where you are pretty much expected to use GW's models.
Well, the point of “5 Boyz list” is simillar to “18 SMG list”. The point is = SPAM IT! If you spam something, you create a disbalance. Every army has to be able to kill all - hordes, elite infantry and big machines. If you spam with 1 kind of unit, you efectivelly disable big part of his gunz. What is the point to shoot the boyz with some super turbo giga ultra cannon S18 AP -9 DMG 15 or whatever?
3 units of Boyz is not a spam. It' s about more complex strategy. 5 units is a spam. These are 2 different types of gameplay. It's not about “shall I take 4th boyz or not? I don' t thing so. It' s about “shall I spam the boyz? = take 5 and dream about 6” or “shall I play the complex strategy, where the boyz are part of something? = take 3 and use the rest of the points for this “something = Tankbustas, lootas, gitz, smg, meganob, etc. Because this “something” have to be devastating. Because 3 unitz of boyz alone are not.
The spam Boyz (and Grots) list is fething awful to play and really quite simple.
The ‘tactic’ is flood the board with bodies, take objectives and win that way. Hope that when the enemy finally breaks the army down you have enough VP to win the game. It’s a calculated gamble. Don’t get me wrong - the SAG are there in an attempt to steal kill more after dealing with as many threats to the Boys as possible. The Tank Bustas provide a similar function for the list that took them. But it’s a boring list.
The tactic here reminds me of the index days. It’s basic and tedious. Any faction that can spam units can do it too. IG, Nids could all do the same tactic.
2020/01/30 07:46:18
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
acme2468 wrote: Now that’s what I’m talking about. You are a real ork Moriarty
Fie, Sir! You will turn my head :-)
Many thanks to you all, hope it will spark some efforts at hammerin’ kits together for more Orky goodness. All I have to do now is find a way to make the Chinork work in game. . . . .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 07:46:57
2020/01/30 08:01:39
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
acme2468 wrote: Now that’s what I’m talking about. You are a real ork Moriarty
Fie, Sir! You will turn my head :-)
Many thanks to you all, hope it will spark some efforts at hammerin’ kits together for more Orky goodness. All I have to do now is find a way to make the Chinork work in game. . . . .
You will cause it is just a better version of a trukk.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The spam Boyz (and Grots) list is fething awful to play and really quite simple.
The ‘tactic’ is flood the board with bodies, take objectives and win that way. Hope that when the enemy finally breaks the army down you have enough VP to win the game. It’s a calculated gamble. Don’t get me wrong - the SAG are there in an attempt to steal kill more after dealing with as many threats to the Boys as possible. The Tank Bustas provide a similar function for the list that took them. But it’s a boring list.
The tactic here reminds me of the index days. It’s basic and tedious. Any faction that can spam units can do it too. IG, Nids could all do the same tactic.
This is why I never played it. Hell I never used lootas this edition because everyone did. But I believe having 90 boyz is ideal Vs TFC because they can target tremor with 2 units at maximum, and one charge is all that is needed in order to screw up that castle.
Birdsong was talking on Facebook and said that playing that army was incredibly tolling, to say the least. So honestly I don't wanna feel nauseous after a match.
Furthermore I want the point to play other stuff, instead of having 3 units spammed all over
2020/01/30 10:00:58
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Nora wrote: On the subject of spaming boyz, do you believe it would be an option to use stormboyz instead?
Option yes, particularly competive no. More expensive and even less punch in melee. Not good. They struggle to do much of anything and are very vulnerable to shooting.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2020/01/30 10:11:27
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Nora wrote: On the subject of spaming boyz, do you believe it would be an option to use stormboyz instead?
Option yes, particularly competive no. More expensive and even less punch in melee. Not good. They struggle to do much of anything and are very vulnerable to shooting.
I found my stormboyz to be particularly ineffective. In context, its a small squad but even compared to a small Boyz squad. Their advantage is mobility but they dont hit hard, just being Str 4 AP 0. Unlike regular boyz they can't even get tankbombs to take out a distant transport or tank, and can't really hold objectives as they aren't troops, have a 6+ save, and don't even have a KFF to hide behind usually.
I can see them being useful in the context of having 30 with a Klaw Nob, deepstriking and charging isolated or small units. But that's so expensive, 283pts vs a 30 man Boyz with Klaw nob coming in at 223. Which as said, can hold objectives, be near a KFF if desired, Mob Up, Green Tide, take tankbombs and special weapons if wanted. Plus can also jump in a Trukk or wagon to move around with protection.
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
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2020/01/30 13:12:12
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Meta is shifting from needing to kill hordes to needing to kill marines. Given how dominant the marine faction is, people are optimizing towards killing elite infantry and multi-wound models with medium toughness (speeders, talons, centurions). Boyz are doing better because people bring less things to counter them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 13:12:20
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/01/30 14:29:26
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Jidmah wrote: Meta is shifting from needing to kill hordes to needing to kill marines. Given how dominant the marine faction is, people are optimizing towards killing elite infantry and multi-wound models with medium toughness (speeders, talons, centurions).
Boyz are doing better because people bring less things to counter them.
This is why I never played it. Hell I never used lootas this edition because everyone did. But I believe having 90 boyz is ideal Vs TFC because they can target tremor with 2 units at maximum, and one charge is all that is needed in order to screw up that castle.
Birdsong was talking on Facebook and said that playing that army was incredibly tolling, to say the least. So honestly I don't wanna feel nauseous after a match.
Furthermore I want the point to play other stuff, instead of having 3 units spammed all over
Sadly, I think being competitive in ITC and having fun with lots of cool units is probably mutually exclusive with what our tools are.
I think no matter what, you have to bringing a butt load of models (be they grots or boys) to be able to live long enough to score VPs.
Nora wrote:
On the subject of spaming boyz, do you believe it would be an option to use stormboyz instead?
Try them out! I think these people are hatin' a bit. People have been using Warbikers as subs for Boys around here with great success, which on paper "suck".
What they have over boys:
1) Massive threat range without Da Jump (And can still be Da Jumped if need be). ES has move 20" guaranteed, non-ES 18", then charge if a warboss is nearby.
2) Fly keyword. You are now unaffected by tremor shells, can move over screens, and terrain.
3) Can charge enemy fliers (rather good option if the nob has a Killsaw).
4) Can Deepstrike for free.
5) Because of their threat range, get around Auspex scan, because you don't have to cheat them up via Psychic powers or Deep Striking.
What boys do better:
1) Cheaper PPM.
2) Natural ObSec (if you take Stormboys as Deathskulls, though, they get ObSec).
3) More attacks per model if above 20 (which they won't be long)
4) Targetable by useful stratagems like Green Tide (useful, but opponent can play around it).
5) Can take Rokkits (Which no one does) and tankbusta bombs.
I think in the age of TFCs, it's stupid to overlook how massive the Fly keyword on Stormboys is. And I think it's a bit of a joke claiming boys are somehow "killy" and stormboys aren't.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/30 16:35:00
2020/01/30 16:43:05
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I don't think anyone claimed Stormboyz ain't killy. They're simply less efficient at the same tasks, because they have a higher ppm.
And you forgot to mention the fact that the "18" guaranteed" movement means you can't shoot (because Stormboyz only have Pistols) and that you're gonna lose models when you pop Full Throttle (1d6 chance PER MODEL to take a MW).
I got no problems with Stormboyz. I just think they're a lackluster replacement for Boyz.
Also, be aware that people use Warbikers as "replacement Boyz" in Mech lists. In an Infantry list, they would also be a poor replacement for Boyz.
2020/01/30 16:51:22
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
flandarz wrote: I don't think anyone claimed Stormboyz ain't killy. They're simply less efficient at the same tasks, because they have a higher ppm.
And you forgot to mention the fact that the "18" guaranteed" movement means you can't shoot (because Stormboyz only have Pistols) and that you're gonna lose models when you pop Full Throttle (1d6 chance PER MODEL to take a MW).
I got no problems with Stormboyz. I just think they're a lackluster replacement for Boyz.
Also, be aware that people use Warbikers as "replacement Boyz" in Mech lists. In an Infantry list, they would also be a poor replacement for Boyz.
On claiming they suck in combat:
Deadshot wrote:
I found my stormboyz to be particularly ineffective. In context, its a small squad but even compared to a small Boyz squad. Their advantage is mobility but they dont hit hard, just being Str 4 AP 0.
So people are claiming they "don't hit hard" in combat, when they literally have the same statline.
Well, would you rather lose a few boys to mortal wounds or half a squad to entire round of shooting with Auspex scan-like abilities? A squad of 20 will lose just over 3 boys. If you have clever placement, you might be able to partially mitigate that with a well placed painboy. You also aren't forced to use it, just that you have in your pocket if you have a long charge to make.
I also think we shouldn't undersell that they ignore the worst part of Thunderfire Cannons: Tremor shells.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 16:52:29
2020/01/30 17:01:39
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
flandarz wrote: I don't think anyone claimed Stormboyz ain't killy. They're simply less efficient at the same tasks, because they have a higher ppm.
And you forgot to mention the fact that the "18" guaranteed" movement means you can't shoot (because Stormboyz only have Pistols) and that you're gonna lose models when you pop Full Throttle (1d6 chance PER MODEL to take a MW).
I got no problems with Stormboyz. I just think they're a lackluster replacement for Boyz.
Also, be aware that people use Warbikers as "replacement Boyz" in Mech lists. In an Infantry list, they would also be a poor replacement for Boyz.
I would also add that Warbikers are a LOT lot shootier than either Stormboyz or Choppa boyz head-to-head thanks to Dakkaguns.They're also A LOT tougher than them due to having T5, 2W each (3 for Nob) and a natural 5++. Also a bit faster than Stormboyz without advancing and have longer range guns.
Against the most common gun, the Bolt rifle
20 shots from 10 Intercessors
Vs Boy/Stormboy
20 shots, 3+ to hit = 13.33 hits
13 hits, 4+ to wound = 6.67 wounds
-1AP = 7 unsaved wounds
With KFF = 4.44 unsaved wounds
= 4-7 dead Boyz, 2-5 dead boyz and 1 dead nob, or 3-6 dead boyz and 1 wound Nob.
Vs Warbikers
20 Shots, 3+ to hit = 13.33 hits
13 hits, 5+ to wound = 4.44 wounds
-1AP = 5+ save = 2.96 unsaved = 1 dead Biker + 1 wounded biker, or 1 wounded Nob + no dead.
Vs a common Anti-infantry weapon, the Heavy Bolter or heavy flamer
Say, 4x Devastator Squad firing Heavy Bolters
Vs Boyz/Stormboyz
12 shots, 3+ to hit = 8 hits
8 hits, 3+ to wound, = 5.33 wounds
-1AP = 5 dead boyz, or 4 dead boyz 1 wounded nob, or 3 dead boyz 1 dead Nob
With KFF this drops to 3.33 unsaved = 3 dead boyz OR 2 dead boyz and 1 wounded nob, or 1 dead boy and 1 dead nob.
Vs Bikerz
8 hits, 4+ to wound = 4 wounds
-1AP = 5+ Save = 2.66 unsaved = 1 Dead biker + 1 wounded biker OR 1 dead Nob, no dead biker
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
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2020/01/30 17:26:13
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Don't have the time to look at the math of it at the moment but just as important as the durability of your disruption unit is the offensive output. Yea the bikes will fire before charging and on paper the amount of shots from a unit of bikers can look very dangerous, but I've been consistently disappointed by it vs. anything tougher than GEQ (and it just tickles MEQ in cover). So you're definitely counting on the subsequent charge to make your rush have a bigger effect than simply disrupting a turn of shooting from a couple units (if your targets even can be stopped from shooting that way).
Warbikers are awful in CC, relative to our army. They just don't have weight of attacks, because you're paying more than 3x the price of Ork Boyz for worse output.
The freedom of movement from Fly, comparable speed (admittedly at a cost), better CC performance, and cheaper point cost, has definitely had me considering expanding on my Stormboyz collection over fielding my warbikers.
2020/01/30 17:37:46
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Madjob wrote: Don't have the time to look at the math of it at the moment but just as important as the durability of your disruption unit is the offensive output. Yea the bikes will fire before charging and on paper the amount of shots from a unit of bikers can look very dangerous, but I've been consistently disappointed by it vs. anything tougher than GEQ (and it just tickles MEQ in cover). So you're definitely counting on the subsequent charge to make your rush have a bigger effect than simply disrupting a turn of shooting from a couple units (if your targets even can be stopped from shooting that way).
Warbikers are awful in CC, relative to our army. They just don't have weight of attacks, because you're paying more than 3x the price of Ork Boyz for worse output.
The freedom of movement from Fly, comparable speed (admittedly at a cost), better CC performance, and cheaper point cost, has definitely had me considering expanding on my Stormboyz collection over fielding my warbikers.
I agree with you here. I think the Dakkaguns are fine but not really why you would care about Warbikers.
I think Jid (and crew here) have used Warbikers successfully because they can have a massive charge range, and they aren't really there to kill anything. Just tag as much of the enemy opponent as they can without getting wrecked first turn so the rest of your mech force can get into position without getting shot off the board.
To do this, you probably need Kult of Speed (-1 CP) and to use a stratagem (double your move for advance, -2CP) and keep a warboss / wartrike nearby so they can charge. With this, they can move 28" (non-ES) or 32" (ES) then charge after.
I think Stormboys have some things worth exploring. We do get quite a bit for 2PPM. And considering how much angst there is over Tremor Shells, it surprises me how much people dismiss a Boy that can literally ignore it, something that even Warbikers can't do.
Deadshot wrote:
They're also A LOT tougher than them due to having T5, 2W each (3 for Nob) and a natural 5++
I also don't know how you're getting a natural 5++ invul save on your warbikers Deadshot? The only invul save they can get is from being a Deathskull or the KFF.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 17:41:09
2020/01/30 17:50:24
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
flandarz wrote: I don't think anyone claimed Stormboyz ain't killy. They're simply less efficient at the same tasks, because they have a higher ppm.
And you forgot to mention the fact that the "18" guaranteed" movement means you can't shoot (because Stormboyz only have Pistols) and that you're gonna lose models when you pop Full Throttle (1d6 chance PER MODEL to take a MW).
I got no problems with Stormboyz. I just think they're a lackluster replacement for Boyz.
Also, be aware that people use Warbikers as "replacement Boyz" in Mech lists. In an Infantry list, they would also be a poor replacement for Boyz.
On claiming they suck in combat:
Deadshot wrote:
I found my stormboyz to be particularly ineffective. In context, its a small squad but even compared to a small Boyz squad. Their advantage is mobility but they dont hit hard, just being Str 4 AP 0.
So people are claiming they "don't hit hard" in combat, when they literally have the same statline.
Well, would you rather lose a few boys to mortal wounds or half a squad to entire round of shooting with Auspex scan-like abilities? A squad of 20 will lose just over 3 boys. If you have clever placement, you might be able to partially mitigate that with a well placed painboy. You also aren't forced to use it, just that you have in your pocket if you have a long charge to make.
I also think we shouldn't undersell that they ignore the worst part of Thunderfire Cannons: Tremor shells.
I calculated the following of these out to try and refute what you were saying, but I'm pleasantly surprised at the results and to find out you have a strong argument. Stormboyz might actually be pretty effective.
Spoiler:
20 Shoota Boyz (let's say for some reason I Da Jumped them into range but outside Auspex)
40 shots at 5+ to hit = 13.33 hits. But half of that are DakkaDakkaDakka shots giving an extra 6.66666 shots, equate to an extra 2.2222 hits. So 15.555 hits overall
15.55 hits at 4+ to wound = 7.78 wounds
7.25 wounds with 3+ save = 2.59 unsaved. That means a Primaris Marine is dead and 1 is wounded, or 3 regular Marines are dead.
20 Choppa Boyz
Assuming you want to charge, which you do, you need to be in Auspex Scan range
Intercessors
20 shots, 3+ to hit = 13.33 hits
13 hits, 4+ to wound = 6.67 wounds
-1AP = 7 unsaved wounds
10 Bolt Pistol Shots, 3+ to hit = 6.67 hits
4+ to wound = 3.33 wounds
6+ save = 1.11 unsaved wound
30 Boltgun and Bolt Pistol Shots
30 shots at 3+ to hit = 20 hits
4+ to wound = 10 wounds
6+ save = 8.33 dead Boyz
Ork Shooting, with average loss of 8 Boyz
12 Slugga shots at 5+ to hit is 4 hits, plus average of +2 shots for DDD, which brings the total to 4.66 hits average
4.66 hits at 4+ to wound = 2.33 wounds
3+ save brings this to 0.78 wounds = 1 dead Oldmarine or 1 wounded Primaris
Charging
Primaris Bolt Rifles + Pistols
Vs Primaris Bolt Rifles
20 Bolt Rifle shots = 3.33 hits, 1.66 wounds, = 2 dead boyz
10 Pistol shots = 0.69 unsaved wounds, so 3 boyz dead before combat begins
Vs Boltguns and Pistols
27 shots = 4.5 hits = 2.25 wounds = 0.75 unsaved = 1 dead boy(interesting that Primaris are only Marginally better average on overwatch)
9 Orks Charge vs 10 (1 wounded) Primaris with 9 Boyz Left
4 attacks each = 36 attacks
36 attacks, 3+ to hit = 24 hits
4+ to wound = 12 wounds
3+ to save = 4 failed saves = 2 dead Primaris (wounded one from earlier, and another full wounds) + 1 wounded Primaris
They strike back with 2 attacks each and +1 for sergeant so 17 attacks
17 attacks hitting on 3+ = 13.33 hits
4+ wound = 6.67 wounds
6+ save = 5.55 unsaved
This leaves just 4 Orks remaining who will definitely die during Morale phase, needing as they have lost 16 models this turn.
11 Boyz Charge vs 9 Old Marines
44 attacks on 3+ to hit = 29.33 hits
4+ to wound = 14.66 wounds
3+ save = 4.88 unsaved wounds = 5 dead marines
3 Marines + Sergeant hit back with 5 attacks
5 attacks on 3+ to hit = 3.33 hits
4+ to wound = 1.67 wounds
6+ save = 1.38 wounds or 1 dead boy
Marines will now likely run on Morale phase, with a 1 or 2 needed to pass
.
20 Stormboyz
20 Slugga shots = 6.67 hits include 3.33 DDD shots, for an extra 1.11 hit total on average. So 7.78 hits average
7.78 hits at 4+ to wound = 3.89 wounds
3.89 wounds at 3+ save = 1.27 unsaved = 1 wounded Primaris or 1 dead Oldmarine.
Charging
30 shots on Overwatch (Don't forget, all Marines have a Pistol as well as their bolter
Vs Primaris Bolt Rifles
20 Bolt Rifle shots = 3.33 hits, 1.66 wounds, = 2 dead stormboyz
10 Pistol shots = 0.69 unsaved wounds, so 3 stormboyz dead before combat begins
Vs Boltguns and Pistols
27 shots = 4.5 hits = 2.25 wounds = 0.75 unsaved = 1 dead stormboy (interesting that Primaris are only Marginally better average on overwatch)
Stormboyz hitting vs Primaris
17 survivors with 4 attacks each = 68 attacks
3+ to hit = 45.33 hits
4+ to wound = 22.66 wonds
3+ save = 7.55 unsaved wounds, or killing the wounded Primaris from shooting, plus 3 others.
6 surviving Primaris with Sergeant strike back with total of 13 attacks
3+ to hit = 8.66 hits
4+ to wound = 4.33 wounds
6+ save = 3.61 unsaved wounds, or 4 dead stormboyz
Vs Oldmarines
19 Stormboyz hit with 4 attacks each fr 76 attacks
3+ to hit = 50.66 hits
4+ to wound = 25.33 hits
3+ save = 8.44 unsaved wounds, or 8 dead space marines. 1 Marine is dead from Sluggas, so just, presumably, the Sergeant left.
Marines sergeant hit back with 2 attacks
3+ to hit = 1.66 hits
4+ to wound = 0.83 wound
6+ save = 0.69 wounds = 1 dead stormboy
So in summary
Da Jumped Shoota Boyz kill 1 Primaris Marine or 3 Old Marines for no losses
Da Jumped Choppa Boyz kill 2 Primaris and wound a 3rd, from a combination of shooting and melee. They lose 16 from a combination of Auspex, Overwatch and Melee, and the rest die to morale
Da Jumped Choppa Boyz kill 6 Marines from shooting and melee, and lose 10 from Auspex, Overwatch and Melee. The Marines will maybe lose another 1-3 marines, and the Orks will lose D6 (10 casualties + D6 vs LD 10 for 10 models in unit)
Stormboyz kill 4 Primaris from shooting and melee and lose 7 from Overwatch and melee
Stormboyz kill 9 marines from shooting and melee and lose 3 from overwatch and melee
Madjob wrote: Don't have the time to look at the math of it at the moment but just as important as the durability of your disruption unit is the offensive output. Yea the bikes will fire before charging and on paper the amount of shots from a unit of bikers can look very dangerous, but I've been consistently disappointed by it vs. anything tougher than GEQ (and it just tickles MEQ in cover). So you're definitely counting on the subsequent charge to make your rush have a bigger effect than simply disrupting a turn of shooting from a couple units (if your targets even can be stopped from shooting that way).
Warbikers are awful in CC, relative to our army. They just don't have weight of attacks, because you're paying more than 3x the price of Ork Boyz for worse output.
The freedom of movement from Fly, comparable speed (admittedly at a cost), better CC performance, and cheaper point cost, has definitely had me considering expanding on my Stormboyz collection over fielding my warbikers.
I agree with you here. I think the Dakkaguns are fine but not really why you would care about Warbikers.
I think Jid (and crew here) have used Warbikers successfully because they can have a massive charge range, and they aren't really there to kill anything. Just tag as much of the enemy opponent as they can without getting wrecked first turn so the rest of your mech force can get into position without getting shot off the board.
To do this, you probably need Kult of Speed (-1 CP) and to use a stratagem (double your move for advance, -2CP) and keep a warboss / wartrike nearby so they can charge. With this, they can move 28" (non-ES) or 32" (ES) then charge after.
I think Stormboys have some things worth exploring. We do get quite a bit for 2PPM. And considering how much angst there is over Tremor Shells, it surprises me how much people dismiss a Boy that can literally ignore it, something that even Warbikers can't do.
Deadshot wrote:
They're also A LOT tougher than them due to having T5, 2W each (3 for Nob) and a natural 5++
I also don't know how you're getting a natural 5++ invul save on your warbikers Deadshot? The only invul save they can get is from being a Deathskull or the KFF.
Ah, apologies, I wrote 5++ when I meant to write 5+ vs AP-1. obviously differs vs other APs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 17:51:57
2020/01/30 18:05:59
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Da Jumped Shoota Boyz kill 1 Primaris Marine or 3 Old Marines for no losses
Da Jumped Choppa Boyz kill 2 Primaris and wound a 3rd, from a combination of shooting and melee. They lose 16 from a combination of Auspex, Overwatch and Melee, and the rest die to morale
Da Jumped Choppa Boyz kill 6 Marines from shooting and melee, and lose 10 from Auspex, Overwatch and Melee. The Marines will maybe lose another 1-3 marines, and the Orks will lose D6 (10 casualties + D6 vs LD 10 for 10 models in unit)
Stormboyz kill 4 Primaris from shooting and melee and lose 7 from Overwatch and melee
Stormboyz kill 9 marines from shooting and melee and lose 3 from overwatch and melee
Interesting napkin math. I think the key question is can you deliver them without getting shot too much? With their fly / mobility, I think it's possible, it's just not as straightforward as Da Jump / Deepstrike. It requires good positioning and having some proper terrain on the board.
Another thing to toss into those calcs: Take them as Deathskulls. They lose some mobility, but they gain a 6+ invul and the Nob is now much more consistent with its PK / Killsaw. They benefit from the movement stuff of ES but it's definitely not as good as it is on Boys.
Your calcs are a bit off, though. The Boys won't have 4 attacks (being below 20 in the unit), and Stormboys just have 3 attacks each. Although this should affect your calcs about the same as you did it on both.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 18:14:36
2020/01/30 18:24:58
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Da Jumped Shoota Boyz kill 1 Primaris Marine or 3 Old Marines for no losses Da Jumped Choppa Boyz kill 2 Primaris and wound a 3rd, from a combination of shooting and melee. They lose 16 from a combination of Auspex, Overwatch and Melee, and the rest die to morale Da Jumped Choppa Boyz kill 6 Marines from shooting and melee, and lose 10 from Auspex, Overwatch and Melee. The Marines will maybe lose another 1-3 marines, and the Orks will lose D6 (10 casualties + D6 vs LD 10 for 10 models in unit) Stormboyz kill 4 Primaris from shooting and melee and lose 7 from Overwatch and melee Stormboyz kill 9 marines from shooting and melee and lose 3 from overwatch and melee
Interesting napkin math. I think the key question is can you deliver them without getting shot too much? With their fly / mobility, I think it's possible, it's just not as straightforward as Da Jump / Deepstrike. It requires good positioning and having some proper terrain on the board.
Another thing to toss into those calcs: Take them as Deathskulls. They lose some mobility, but they gain a 6+ invul and the Nob is now much more consistent with its PK / Killsaw. They benefit from the movement stuff of ES but it's definitely not as good as it is on Boys.
Your calcs are a bit off, though. The Boys won't have 4 attacks (being below 20 in the unit), and Stormboys just have 3 attacks each. Although this should affect your calcs about the same as you did it on both.
Ahhh the joys of a dodgy keyboard I'll redo them latest but I can't imagine the results being too different. One other thing to note is that if you can get footboyz up the field and charge without worrying about Auspex Scan or similar, they'll get similar results to the stormboyz. Stormboyz is done without as one can assume they can fly up the field fast enough they don't need to deepstrike. If they did, again, similar results.
Also, I did these calcs without Klan/Chapter tactics and without Nobs and special sergeant weapons. There's a lot of variables there that can definitely flip the script. I can imagine Deathskulls definitely altering a lot of things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 18:26:36
2020/01/30 18:34:30
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
flandarz wrote: I don't think anyone claimed Stormboyz ain't killy. They're simply less efficient at the same tasks, because they have a higher ppm.
And you forgot to mention the fact that the "18" guaranteed" movement means you can't shoot (because Stormboyz only have Pistols) and that you're gonna lose models when you pop Full Throttle (1d6 chance PER MODEL to take a MW).
I got no problems with Stormboyz. I just think they're a lackluster replacement for Boyz.
Also, be aware that people use Warbikers as "replacement Boyz" in Mech lists. In an Infantry list, they would also be a poor replacement for Boyz.
Higher ppm, 25% less attacks. And without da jump can't rely on t1 charge anyway
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2020/01/30 19:46:12
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Ahhh the joys of a dodgy keyboard I'll redo them latest but I can't imagine the results being too different. One other thing to note is that if you can get footboyz up the field and charge without worrying about Auspex Scan or similar, they'll get similar results to the stormboyz. Stormboyz is done without as one can assume they can fly up the field fast enough they don't need to deepstrike. If they did, again, similar results.
Also, I did these calcs without Klan/Chapter tactics and without Nobs and special sergeant weapons. There's a lot of variables there that can definitely flip the script. I can imagine Deathskulls definitely altering a lot of things.
All good. I think the main reason why people are so obsessed with Da Jump -> charge is that slogging boys is not all that feasible.
I guess the pitch I would make is this:
1) 10 grots + 20 Stormboys costs the same as 30 boys in a battalion; in an Outrider (I have been doing bat/bat/1 cp detachment), you don't have the grot tax, so this is actually 30 points cheaper or 23 Storm boyz if you wanna equal it out. I think they can fill the same role.
2) In matchups where the opponent has anti deep strike tech (top tier armies like: Eldar, Tau, Space Marines), Stormboys will fare better because they don't have to deepstrike to charge. In matchups where the opponent doesn't have anti-DS tech, Stormboys will likely fare just fine anyway.
3) With the fly keyword, it removes a quiver from our probably most hated unit, TFCs.
4) If you still want the option to Da Jump your Stormboys with the same charge efficiency as slogging boys, you can take them as ES and they can do that. If you want them to be a bit more survivable, killy, and to get ObSec, you can take them as Deathskulls., at the cost of only making the charge out of deep strike ~58% of the time as opposed to 80%.
So I would offer: try out 20 Stormboys as potential replacements for 30 man boy squads. At the very least, flying boys is more fun to play.
2020/01/30 20:40:11
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Emicrania wrote: I think you are right @Tulun, I´ll try a list with 27*2 boyx and 25 Storm and we'll see what happens.
Sweet! I'm trying something similar Sunday (either 1 boy, 1 stormboy squad, or 2x boy, 1 stormboy squad). Let me know how it does. I'm gonna be trying mine as all Deathskulls, we'll see how that goes.
You gonna run it Evil Suns or something else?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 22:18:52
2020/01/30 23:06:11
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I'm also interested to see how they play out. I DO think Stormboyz will work better against Marines, but even now Marines only make up like 40% of the Meta, so I'd like to see if they can be a good "replacement" against other armies. Especially when you're losing 25% of your damage potential, Green Tide, and Mob Up for 2 ppm more than Boyz.
2020/01/30 23:16:01
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Would see them more as help than replacement.
Jumping + tellyporting 60 boys turn 2 + 1-2 squads stormboys gets quite some stress on the opponent.
Don`t see anything else than Evil suns making sense on them right now. Until Saga of the beast drops at least.^^
2020/01/30 23:23:54
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
flandarz wrote: I'm also interested to see how they play out. I DO think Stormboyz will work better against Marines, but even now Marines only make up like 40% of the Meta, so I'd like to see if they can be a good "replacement" against other armies. Especially when you're losing 25% of your damage potential, Green Tide, and Mob Up for 2 ppm more than Boyz.
What matchups are you concerned about specifically? Remembers that +1 attack isn't there forever. And functionally, from DS -> Charge, you are maybe losing... 15 attacks? Seems like the rule of thumb is about 15 boys consolidate in, right?
I dunno. Green Tide is boss, but I've found people can very easily play around it. Wiping out 6+ save Evil Sun boys, even 30 of them in 1 go, is not all that difficult for most armies. Once people understand the triggers (IE: don't let the boys go below 16 unless you can wipe them out), its rare to get it off, or it requires the auto pass morale stratagem, taking it up to 5 CP. It's amazing on paper. How often do you actually get it off against smart opponents, though, at 3 CP?
I would say there's nothing stopping from a mix of the two, as well, if they really give a massive edge on non-marine armies.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/30 23:26:32
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy 
Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones 
10k p fullpaint orks ready to krump! …
