CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment

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**Slayer-Fan123**

SemperMortis wrote:
ZergSmasher wrote:
Too many whiny babies in this thread. Orks are better than they've been in years. They've got really awesome strats, great klan kulture bonuses, awesome new models, and still nothing but complain, complain, complain. I'm confident they are just fine even with other armies getting a bit of help in CA 2018. Space Marines really needed the help; they've been languishing since fairly early in 8th edition (once some more of the codexes came out and were flat out better). I admit there are some disappointing things, including Guardsmen staying at 4 ppm and Tzaangors staying at 7 while Tactical Marines stayed at 13, but otherwise I think the game will be better overall from this. It hasn't been long enough for all of the good builds to shake out of the Ork codex yet; keep experimenting and trying new units/combos, and maybe actually try to see the glass as half full for once (that last part goes for everyone, not just salty Ork players!).

Orkz are literally exactly where we have been for a decade, mid to bottom tier. We got good strats, we got 1 good kulture and 2 ok kultures, the rest are meh at best. We did get awesome new models, I will never deny that. What we got from our new Codex was a 1 trick pony army that relies exclusively on turn 2 charges to function. We got a bunch of shooting buffs for units that suck so badly that without investing 6CP a turn in them they aren't worth taking. We got our bread and butter troop choice increased in price. Our Competitive lists on average went up well over 200pts (Mine went up 200pts just in Mek Gunz).

Our PKs cost more than Imperial Power Fists, Our Burna's cost more than Flamers, our Skorcha's cost more than Heavy Flamers, our Kustom Shoota costs as much as a Storm Bolter but is worse. Hell, we can now take a Killa Kan with a Big Shoota for 45pts, a Imperial Guard player can take a armored sentinel which is Faster, Tougher, More Wounds, better Leadership, Better WS and a Multi Laser which has more Strength for 35pts. (Multi Laser: S6 Ranged 36 3 shots COST? 5pts. Big Shoota: S5, Ranged 36 3 shots cost? 5pts.) a Chimera has more Toughness a better save better ballistic skill and better weapons and costs as much as a trukk. Our Warbikers cost as much as a Space Marine Biker.....

So yeah we are a bit pissed that we are yet again paying premium points for units which are worse or as good at best as imperial equivalents.

1. Your units that can Power Klaws are S5 so you should pay more.

Remember I'm joking and I'm for universal costs.

2. Ork Bikers are a much better deal than Space Marine Bikers though. Seriously.

**Karthicus**

My BT lists just went down a good chunk. Centurion Assault got a nice drop.

I'm thinking my TH/SS Terminators are now worthy of putting into a force, and the BT characters 20 point drop really makes it a nice pickup. VERY excited about the CA adjustments that I saw, and the TS points adjustments look nice too.

**redboi**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
ZergSmasher wrote:
Too many whiny babies in this thread. Orks are better than they've been in years. They've got really awesome strats, great klan kulture bonuses, awesome new models, and still nothing but complain, complain, complain. I'm confident they are just fine even with other armies getting a bit of help in CA 2018. Space Marines really needed the help; they've been languishing since fairly early in 8th edition (once some more of the codexes came out and were flat out better). I admit there are some disappointing things, including Guardsmen staying at 4 ppm and Tzaangors staying at 7 while Tactical Marines stayed at 13, but otherwise I think the game will be better overall from this. It hasn't been long enough for all of the good builds to shake out of the Ork codex yet; keep experimenting and trying new units/combos, and maybe actually try to see the glass as half full for once (that last part goes for everyone, not just salty Ork players!).

Orkz are literally exactly where we have been for a decade, mid to bottom tier. We got good strats, we got 1 good kulture and 2 ok kultures, the rest are meh at best. We did get awesome new models, I will never deny that. What we got from our new Codex was a 1 trick pony army that relies exclusively on turn 2 charges to function. We got a bunch of shooting buffs for units that suck so badly that without investing 6CP a turn in them they aren't worth taking. We got our bread and butter troop choice increased in price. Our Competitive lists on average went up well over 200pts (Mine went up 200pts just in Mek Gunz).

Our PKs cost more than Imperial Power Fists, Our Burna's cost more than Flamers, our Skorcha's cost more than Heavy Flamers, our Kustom Shoota costs as much as a Storm Bolter but is worse. Hell, we can now take a Killa Kan with a Big Shoota for 45pts, a Imperial Guard player can take a armored sentinel which is Faster, Tougher, More Wounds, better Leadership, Better WS and a Multi Laser which has more Strength for 35pts. (Multi Laser: S6 Ranged 36 3 shots COST? 5pts. Big Shoota: S5, Ranged 36 3 shots cost? 5pts.) a Chimera has more Toughness a better save better ballistic skill and better weapons and costs as much as a trukk. Our Warbikers cost as much as a Space Marine Biker.....

So yeah we are a bit pissed that we are yet again paying premium points for units which are worse or as good at best as imperial equivalents.

1. Your units that can Power Klaws are S5 so you should pay more.

Remember I'm joking and I'm for universal costs.

2. Ork Bikers are a much better deal than Space Marine Bikers though. Seriously.

ya know I find it kind of funny that we have to pay more for options that we benefit more from, yet also pay a premium on ranged weapons that benefit us less. Orks get it coming and going

**Techpriestsupport**

The fact an annihilation barge is now 33 points cheaper in total makes them a very attractive option.

Immortals and deathmarks getting a 2 point drop whilst warriors are now a point cheaper brings smiles to metal faces.

**wuestenfux**

Techpriestsupport wrote:
The fact an annihilation barge is now 33 points cheaper in total makes them a very attractive option.

Immortals and deathmarks getting a 2 point drop whilst warriors are now a point cheaper brings smiles to metal faces.

Not bad. But maybe not enough for a viable build. Wraiths are now 48 pts instead of 55.

**Grimgold**

Techpriestsupport wrote:
The fact an annihilation barge is now 33 points cheaper in total makes them a very attractive option.

Immortals and deathmarks getting a 2 point drop whilst warriors are now a point cheaper brings smiles to metal faces.

No because they are still saddled with Tesla destructors, which are useless. It's nice that you can take a gauss cannon on it though, but being a double cost destroyer probably does not rank as attractive.

**daedalus**

Man, every time I resurface into this site from beyond space and time, I find that nothing changes except for the nouns.

**VyRa**

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Re posting from the News and Rumors thread since the actual discussion seems to be going on here:

I went through Chaos, Thousand Sons, and Death Guard. Here's the changes (didn't do daemons):

Chaos:

Spoiler:

Chaos Units
Bikers: 23 > 21
Cultis: 4 > 5
Land Raider: 239 > 200
Terminator Lord: 105 > 95
Spawn: 33 > 25
Terminators: 31 > 28
Chosen: 16 > 14
Defiler: 140 > 120
Forgefiend: 119 > 100
Helbrute: 72 > 60
Heldrake: 138 > 120
Maulerfiend: 140 > 120
Plague Marines: 17 > 16
Possessed: 22 > 20
Raptors: 17 > 15
Terminator Sorc: 120 > 102
Warp Talons: 15 > 12
Warpsmith: 45 > 35

Chaos Characters:
Cypher: 110 > 80
Fabius Bile: 109 > 90
Huron: 125 > 105
Kharn: 160 > 120
Lucius: 115 > 85

Chaos Wargear:
Autocannon: 15 > 10
Chainfist: 14 > 11
Combi-Flamer: 11 > 8
Combi-Melta: 19 > 15
Combi-Plasma: 15 > 11
Doom Siren: 10 > 8
Ectoplasma Cannon: 26 > 20
Flamer: 9 > 6
Hades Autocannon: 25 > 20
Havoc Launcher: 11 > 6
Heavy Flamer: 17 > 14
Heavy stubber: 4 > 2
Helbrute fists 40/50 > 30/40
Helbrute hammer: 52 > 30
Helbrute plasma cannon: 30 > 16
Meltagun: 17 > 14
Missile launcher: 25 > 20
Multi-melta: 27 > 22
Plasma gun: 13 > 11
Plasma pistol: 7 > 5
Power fist: 12 > 9
Power scourge: 43 > 35
Reaper AC: 15 > 10
Twin heavy flamer: 34 > 28
Twin lascannon: 50 > 40

Thousand Sons:

Spoiler:

Thousand Sons:
Mutalith: 150 > 125
Rubrics: 18 > 16
Scarabs: 33 > 30
Sorcerer: 95 > 90

Thousand Sons wargear:
Heavy warpflamer: 23 > 17
Hellfyre missiles: 22 > 15
Inferno bolt pistol: 1 > 0
Soulreaper: 15 > 10
Warpflame pistol: 7 > 3
Warpflamer: 15 > 10

Death Guard:

Spoiler:

Death Guard:
Biologus Putrifier: 74 > 60
Blightlords: 38 > 34
Lord of Contagion: 100 > 95
Blight haulers: 85 > 75
Noxious blightbringer: 58 > 50
Plague Marines: 17 > 16
Plague surgeon: 59 > 54
Tallyman: 55 > 50

Death Guard Wargear:
Bile spurt: 5 > 0
Entropy cannon: 20 > 15
Plague belcher: 10 > 7
Plague spewer: 19 > 15
Plaguereaper: 30 > 20
Plaguespurt gauntlet: 8 > 0

Observations looking at the Chaos changes:

Lack of changes to basic CSM means they still aren't worth using. Cultists will still be the default troop. Cultist swarms probably aren't viable, so now we'll switch to min size battalions to provide CPs for our much cheaper elite and heavy units.

Helbrutes and daemon engines have gotten such massive points drops that they may actually be worth using now. Especially if the rumor about traits being given to more units is true.

Our characters are freakin cheap. Kharn may be the most points efficient killer in the entire game.

Lack of changes to Rhinos means we're still pretty boned on transport and mobility.

Spawn might actually be good now. Bikes still not worth it. Chosen may be decent, if you can figure out a way to deliver them. Raptors could maybe work with Haarken if he turns out to be good.

The way they did the terminator changes is great for combi plas terminators, but cheapo axe + combi bolter terminators are probably too expensive still.

Overall, my prediction is that chaos's new meta will be MSU cultists + renegade knight + swarms of cheap helbrutes and daemon engines.

1ksons are a bit better off, but I doubt these point changes are enough to tip scarabs and rubrics into use. Those units really need some strats. If they get a formation later that could do it.

DG are saving a lot of points, and will probably go in the same direction as I predicted for Chaos above. Plague marines still aren't going to be worth it because bolters can't kill anything.

I see myself mostly agreeing to this. I'm glad that i started buying daemon engines in the last few weeks. But i also feel that CSM will mostly stay in the same bracket considering overall army strength, the buffs that most other factions (except for some poor xenos) have received and the general game mechanics. I see myself smashing helbrute fists into a lot of SS in the future, that's for certain. On a really competitive level, i think this CA might still be a nerf for chaos, since our tourney meta mostly consisted of cultist spam in a variety of ways, and i don't really see any units taking their place. Again, the game mechanics really favor big units with many models with few hit points each over elite units with few models with a lot of hit points to them. And that's basically what daemon engines are, aren't they?

Still haven't found a decent source for the FW point changes yet. I read that the Kytan will take a big drop in points, which is really great. I'm just crossing my fingers that my Butcher Cannon Leviathan will not take a big hit, but i would be frankly amazed if GeeDubs wouldn't kneecap the menace of chaos Leviathans.

But if it comes down to it, meh, chaos is still there. It could be worse. It certainly could be better - but it could also be a lot worse. I really have to start thinking about finding a good delivery system for my troops, though - a Kharybdis or a Storm Eagle might be something to consider at this point, since Rhinos and Land Raiders are still unreliable, expansive and draw fire way to easily.

**Blackie**

Not really excited about CA point changes, but I'll take them.

I mean I knew orks were out, but I wanted IK and AM nerfed and it didn't happen. Actually the imperium top tier soup is even more powerful now.

Very disappointed with drukhari, though. All the overcosted units and wargear are still overcosted. Several units need a significant price drop.

I'm a bit glad for my space wolves though, several things went down in cost. Basically a 50-60 points drop on my tipycal lists but not too bad. I'm just a bit disappointed on the blood claws cost, they are regular SM with worse BS and just a pistol and yet they cost like the standard dudes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
ZergSmasher wrote:
Too many whiny babies in this thread. Orks are better than they've been in years. They've got really awesome strats, great klan kulture bonuses, awesome new models, and still nothing but complain, complain, complain. I'm confident they are just fine even with other armies getting a bit of help in CA 2018. Space Marines really needed the help; they've been languishing since fairly early in 8th edition (once some more of the codexes came out and were flat out better). I admit there are some disappointing things, including Guardsmen staying at 4 ppm and Tzaangors staying at 7 while Tactical Marines stayed at 13, but otherwise I think the game will be better overall from this. It hasn't been long enough for all of the good builds to shake out of the Ork codex yet; keep experimenting and trying new units/combos, and maybe actually try to see the glass as half full for once (that last part goes for everyone, not just salty Ork players!).

Orkz are literally exactly where we have been for a decade, mid to bottom tier. We got good strats, we got 1 good kulture and 2 ok kultures, the rest are meh at best. We did get awesome new models, I will never deny that. What we got from our new Codex was a 1 trick pony army that relies exclusively on turn 2 charges to function. We got a bunch of shooting buffs for units that suck so badly that without investing 6CP a turn in them they aren't worth taking. We got our bread and butter troop choice increased in price. Our Competitive lists on average went up well over 200pts (Mine went up 200pts just in Mek Gunz).

Our PKs cost more than Imperial Power Fists, Our Burna's cost more than Flamers, our Skorcha's cost more than Heavy Flamers, our Kustom Shoota costs as much as a Storm Bolter but is worse. Hell, we can now take a Killa Kan with a Big Shoota for 45pts, a Imperial Guard player can take a armored sentinel which is Faster, Tougher, More Wounds, better Leadership, Better WS and a Multi Laser which has more Strength for 35pts. (Multi Laser: S6 Ranged 36 3 shots COST? 5pts. Big Shoota: S5, Ranged 36 3 shots cost? 5pts.) a Chimera has more Toughness a better save better ballistic skill and better weapons and costs as much as a trukk. Our Warbikers cost as much as a Space Marine Biker.....

So yeah we are a bit pissed that we are yet again paying premium points for units which are worse or as good at best as imperial equivalents.

1. Your units that can Power Klaws are S5 so you should pay more.

Remember I'm joking and I'm for universal costs.

2. Ork Bikers are a much better deal than Space Marine Bikers though. Seriously.

GW wanted to help their posterboys in order to convince players buying more of their recent kits, as usual.

Orks will get a massive points drop in 6 months. With the new SM costs it's impossible not to assume that. Next round of FAQs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insectum7 wrote:
Ok, the new price for Storm Shields on non-characters is unbelievable. I'm actually questioning the legitimacy of the document now.

Yeah, getting a 3++ for 2 points? Only SM of course.

**Sgt. Cortez**

Helbrute with Scourge and Reaper autocannon is 105 points now. Pretty awesome if you ask me. I used them before as it was already one of the few heavy hitters of DG. It being cheap like that makes me happy.

Also, prince went down 10points? Haha, I thought it'd go up 30 points at least

(Same with crawler basically, but I haven't used it yet).

Plague marines got their points changed the third time in 8th edition. They're now that cheap that I'll probably take squads of 7 again, as they're a very solid unit anyway.

Tallyman 50 points seems like an auto-include.

**Elbows**

Dreadnoughts across the board needed to go down, primarily because the Armigers came around and made everything look obnoxious that was anywhere near their point level (whilst they were faster, more wounds, better guns, longer range, ignored penalties to move, and had invuln saves...) So Dreadnoughts of most types ended up looking like absolute chumps at 15-20 points near to those.

**Drudge Dreadnought**

VyRa wrote:
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Re posting from the News and Rumors thread since the actual discussion seems to be going on here:

I went through Chaos, Thousand Sons, and Death Guard. Here's the changes (didn't do daemons):

Chaos:

Spoiler:

Chaos Units
Bikers: 23 > 21
Cultis: 4 > 5
Land Raider: 239 > 200
Terminator Lord: 105 > 95
Spawn: 33 > 25
Terminators: 31 > 28
Chosen: 16 > 14
Defiler: 140 > 120
Forgefiend: 119 > 100
Helbrute: 72 > 60
Heldrake: 138 > 120
Maulerfiend: 140 > 120
Plague Marines: 17 > 16
Possessed: 22 > 20
Raptors: 17 > 15
Terminator Sorc: 120 > 102
Warp Talons: 15 > 12
Warpsmith: 45 > 35

Chaos Characters:
Cypher: 110 > 80
Fabius Bile: 109 > 90
Huron: 125 > 105
Kharn: 160 > 120
Lucius: 115 > 85

Chaos Wargear:
Autocannon: 15 > 10
Chainfist: 14 > 11
Combi-Flamer: 11 > 8
Combi-Melta: 19 > 15
Combi-Plasma: 15 > 11
Doom Siren: 10 > 8
Ectoplasma Cannon: 26 > 20
Flamer: 9 > 6
Hades Autocannon: 25 > 20
Havoc Launcher: 11 > 6
Heavy Flamer: 17 > 14
Heavy stubber: 4 > 2
Helbrute fists 40/50 > 30/40
Helbrute hammer: 52 > 30
Helbrute plasma cannon: 30 > 16
Meltagun: 17 > 14
Missile launcher: 25 > 20
Multi-melta: 27 > 22
Plasma gun: 13 > 11
Plasma pistol: 7 > 5
Power fist: 12 > 9
Power scourge: 43 > 35
Reaper AC: 15 > 10
Twin heavy flamer: 34 > 28
Twin lascannon: 50 > 40

Thousand Sons:

Spoiler:

Thousand Sons:
Mutalith: 150 > 125
Rubrics: 18 > 16
Scarabs: 33 > 30
Sorcerer: 95 > 90

Thousand Sons wargear:
Heavy warpflamer: 23 > 17
Hellfyre missiles: 22 > 15
Inferno bolt pistol: 1 > 0
Soulreaper: 15 > 10
Warpflame pistol: 7 > 3
Warpflamer: 15 > 10

Death Guard:

Spoiler:

Death Guard:
Biologus Putrifier: 74 > 60
Blightlords: 38 > 34
Lord of Contagion: 100 > 95
Blight haulers: 85 > 75
Noxious blightbringer: 58 > 50
Plague Marines: 17 > 16
Plague surgeon: 59 > 54
Tallyman: 55 > 50

Death Guard Wargear:
Bile spurt: 5 > 0
Entropy cannon: 20 > 15
Plague belcher: 10 > 7
Plague spewer: 19 > 15
Plaguereaper: 30 > 20
Plaguespurt gauntlet: 8 > 0

Observations looking at the Chaos changes:

Lack of changes to basic CSM means they still aren't worth using. Cultists will still be the default troop. Cultist swarms probably aren't viable, so now we'll switch to min size battalions to provide CPs for our much cheaper elite and heavy units.

Helbrutes and daemon engines have gotten such massive points drops that they may actually be worth using now. Especially if the rumor about traits being given to more units is true.

Our characters are freakin cheap. Kharn may be the most points efficient killer in the entire game.

Lack of changes to Rhinos means we're still pretty boned on transport and mobility.

Spawn might actually be good now. Bikes still not worth it. Chosen may be decent, if you can figure out a way to deliver them. Raptors could maybe work with Haarken if he turns out to be good.

The way they did the terminator changes is great for combi plas terminators, but cheapo axe + combi bolter terminators are probably too expensive still.

Overall, my prediction is that chaos's new meta will be MSU cultists + renegade knight + swarms of cheap helbrutes and daemon engines.

1ksons are a bit better off, but I doubt these point changes are enough to tip scarabs and rubrics into use. Those units really need some strats. If they get a formation later that could do it.

DG are saving a lot of points, and will probably go in the same direction as I predicted for Chaos above. Plague marines still aren't going to be worth it because bolters can't kill anything.

I see myself mostly agreeing to this. I'm glad that i started buying daemon engines in the last few weeks. But i also feel that CSM will mostly stay in the same bracket considering overall army strength, the buffs that most other factions (except for some poor xenos) have received and the general game mechanics. I see myself smashing helbrute fists into a lot of SS in the future, that's for certain. On a really competitive level, i think this CA might still be a nerf for chaos, since our tourney meta mostly consisted of cultist spam in a variety of ways, and i don't really see any units taking their place. Again, the game mechanics really favor big units with many models with few hit points each over elite units with few models with a lot of hit points to them. And that's basically what daemon engines are, aren't they?

Still haven't found a decent source for the FW point changes yet. I read that the Kytan will take a big drop in points, which is really great. I'm just crossing my fingers that my Butcher Cannon Leviathan will not take a big hit, but i would be frankly amazed if GeeDubs wouldn't kneecap the menace of chaos Leviathans.

But if it comes down to it, meh, chaos is still there. It could be worse. It certainly could be better - but it could also be a lot worse. I really have to start thinking about finding a good delivery system for my troops, though - a Kharybdis or a Storm Eagle might be something to consider at this point, since Rhinos and Land Raiders are still unreliable, expansive and draw fire way to easily.

Looks like Butcher Cannon went from 30 > 25, and Butcher Cannon Array from 60 > 40. Deredeo 135 > 120. Leviathan unchanged. Not sure about Kytan.

**ccs**

Kanluwen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So for consistency, you don't think they should have access to even Lascannons?

In Infantry or Veteran Squads? Absolutely not.

ANYTHING "crew-served" should be cut from those two units, immediately, or given a "fire OR move" requirement, as Heavy Weapons have had in previous editions.

Also you really don't need Combat Squad when the total of your Special Weapon + Heavy Weapon Infantry squad is barely over the bare Tactical Squad. You can move forward all you like.

The point. You've missed it.

The point wasn't about the actual kitted out points value total--it's that the HWTs shouldn't be able to move and fire if the squad did. That's why I keep talking about how we need to see the weapons split out or given the ability to 'detach' and get treated as Characters or get a Shield Drone-esque save when non-HWTs are nearby.

I agree with you that IG man-packed heavy weapons should not be able to move & shoot. That's why you mount them on vehicles, or invent power & termie armor.... But I will never agree with you that they shouldn't be part of the squads options.
Look, if YOU don't want to include them in your squads? That's fine, don't spend the points. But me? When I field guard, my squads come prepared.... And if we move? We don't HAVE to fire them if that violates our sensibilities. I don't know about you, but 10, 15, 20+ years ago? Back when we couldn't move & shoot our heavies in the same turn? I killed plenty of targets, won plenty of games. And since the things I'm shooting at today haven't appreciably changed, I'm sure I can repeat that success. My current opponents will look at me funny though because they can't fathom why I'd not fire if allowed.

**fe40k**

Elbows wrote:
Dreadnoughts across the board needed to go down, primarily because the Armigers came around and made everything look obnoxious that was anywhere near their point level (whilst they were faster, more wounds, better guns, longer range, ignored penalties to move, and had invuln saves...) So Dreadnoughts of most types ended up looking like absolute chumps at 15-20 points near to those.

...or, armigers could go up, instead?

Oh wait, it’s an imperial unit - nevermind!

**ccs**

Karol wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
This is trash, GK are still trash.

GW are ass if they think these point reductions mean anything especially after EVERYTHING ELSE got a similar point reduction.

Not EVERYTHING ELSE got a points drop. Just the stuff that was terrible that nobody played. It should make the arena bigger, which could in turn result in GK coming out of the woodwork to find a decent Niche somewhere.

Sure, they won't be a super power army, but you might actually be able to win some games now.

Dude you know that is not how it works. A castellan should cost more points. All the top tier builds people use now exist right now. Sure people may experiment with stuff that got cheaper, but they will base it around the good core of lists they already had. GK had no good core. You thinking having 4-5 termintors more in a GK list is suddenly going to make it better, specialy when some changes really do help some units to be good? And all of this is before the new book where GK get no new formations or new rules, while most of the other armies do.

The only thing , and I hope am wrong here, that changes with this CA is that other armies now have more ways to beat GK. While GK players can buy more models only to find out that their army is still much weaker then other armies.

BTW, I know you're on a limited budget, so how're these pts drops going to work out for you? Won't it make it harder for you to field an army?

**An Actual Englishman**

Daedalus81 wrote:

lol nah

Because I'm capable from divorcing my desires from the possibilities or pretending that I have all the answers. I also won't expect that a Klaw that has more base attacks and strength would get an immediate price cut. Or that by GW spending 95% of CA buffing weak units that it all of a sudden makes my army weak and unviable despite going 6-0 and taking 1st at a major tournament or 4-1 and taking second.

And I'm sorry to be really snarky, but I'm just so fething over the whining.

So you're going to have to explain why Orks should pay more for their worse shooting? Why our ranged weapons and platforms that perform worse than others are so expensive? I thought it was balanced against our superior melee but it looks like that's out.

This CA didn't just buff weak units, it did nothing to address the units that are massively over performing and it also buffed some units that were already very competitive.

In short it has done little to nothing to address the balance of the game.

As to how competitive Orks will be moving forward, well since our codex has only just launched into a meta with very little screens it was expected we do well. Players will adapt (new codexes always do well) and every other army, literally, has been buffed. Which is the same as Orks getting nerfed as far as relative strength goes. Others have already said the glaring problems with our codex in a competitive sense - an over reliance on Deep Striking and Stratagems.

Here's to another 6 months of Imperial Soup, Ynarri, DG/Daemons and TS/Daemons. Woop de fething do.

Irbis wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
The writing on the wall was when we found Boyz were increasing in cost and base size. It was obvious this would happen.

Wait, this whole mess is still going on?

I thought that picture proving you can get the same amount of rows in combat with 25 and 33 mm bases put it to rest months ago.

Maybe, just maybe, it's not GW that doesn't understand the game?

Ah and I suppose the point increase was actually a stealth buff? Getting real bored of the IG apologists.

ZergSmasher wrote:
Too many whiny babies in this thread. Orks are better than they've been in years. They've got really awesome strats, great klan kulture bonuses, awesome new models, and still nothing but complain, complain, complain. I'm confident they are just fine even with other armies getting a bit of help in CA 2018. Space Marines really needed the help; they've been languishing since fairly early in 8th edition (once some more of the codexes came out and were flat out better). I admit there are some disappointing things, including Guardsmen staying at 4 ppm and Tzaangors staying at 7 while Tactical Marines stayed at 13, but otherwise I think the game will be better overall from this. It hasn't been long enough for all of the good builds to shake out of the Ork codex yet; keep experimenting and trying new units/combos, and maybe actually try to see the glass as half full for once (that last part goes for everyone, not just salty Ork players!).

1. Calling people 'whiny babies' is rude and doesn't lead to positive discussion.
2. SM have been performing better than Orks since 8h dropped. Of all flavours except Deathwatch. There are stats to back up this fact on BCP if you'd care to look.
3. Orks literally pay more points for worse/equivalent options in other codexes. Literally. Take our skorcha - its more expensive than the heavy flamer but its the same damn weapon. Someone's going to have to explain how an Ork is somehow better at using an auto hit weapon to me.

**ccs**

lord_blackfang wrote:
lolman1c wrote:

I just can;t believe it... I was actually getting yelled at by some people to shut up and CA would show how wrong I was... We'll guess I'm right but I don't feel good being right. I'm pissed Knights got a slight points decrease. It's only like 1 or 2 pts but just shows what GW thinks of the meta right now.

Those same people will be here shortly to tell you that Orks will surely get the best formations in Vigilus and then they'll be great. If not that, then they'll have points drops in the mid-year FAQ. If not that, the 9th edition rulebook will rebalance everything properly. If not that... etc. You do gotta admire the tenacity of people who can hold on to an unshakable belief that the next release will fix everything for literal decades in the face of overwhelming evidence. It's like that joke about fusion always being just 20 years away.

Hey, you left out my favorite bit! Where you're advised to hold off buying anything until after the next FAQ/CA/Edition/Whatever drops & fixes it all. And as soon as that moment comes? Then the hold & wait advice repeats.

**Slayer-Fan123**

fe40k wrote:
Elbows wrote:
Dreadnoughts across the board needed to go down, primarily because the Armigers came around and made everything look obnoxious that was anywhere near their point level (whilst they were faster, more wounds, better guns, longer range, ignored penalties to move, and had invuln saves...) So Dreadnoughts of most types ended up looking like absolute chumps at 15-20 points near to those.

...or, armigers could go up, instead?

Oh wait, it’s an imperial unit - nevermind!

You can make Armigers useless if you wanted, but that doesn't mean it'll make people suddenly use Dreads.

**lolman1c**

I think the issue with Orks and Tau, etc... as my friend says, is that we're a mono army. Sure space marines can get PK for 9pts because they have S4 and we have S5 but there is nothing stopping a space marine from going out there and getting a S5 imperium model and throwing it in... hell, they could just get a better cc knight and throw it in if they want. Ork players on the other hand have nobz.... they have 1 option and can't explore outside the realms of their codex. I'd love a knight or a baneblade for 400pts but I'm stuck with a stompa for 900pts. Yet, I'm paying 900pts for something with little options when a IG player can throw in such a wide variety of knights or baneblades.

**Karol**

ccs wrote:

BTW, I know you're on a limited budget, so how're these pts drops going to work out for you? Won't it make it harder for you to field an army?

I turn two of my paladins in to ancients or apothecaries, there are no models for them anyway, so I doubt anyone is going to care. Plus I will probably take the second rhino.
Doesn't really matter, to me right now. My m8s army went down almost 300pts and he plays IG soup. I couldn't beat him before I doubt, I can beat him now.

just have to wait for people smarter then me to test GK, because right now the only thing I can think of is taking 5 NDK GMs in an HQ detachment and a draigo and a 6th GM NDK with some naked strikes in another, and play some sort of smaller then knights, bigger then armriggers lists. Not a list for me I could never efford buying 5 NDKs, but maybe that works if 3-4 knights work.

**Nazrak**

I can't believe the usual suspects are pissing and moaning about Orks *again*. Wtf did you expect? Our Codex has been out what, a month? Seems some people won't be happy about Orks unless everything's wildly overpowered.

**level9red**

ccs wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So for consistency, you don't think they should have access to even Lascannons?

In Infantry or Veteran Squads? Absolutely not.

ANYTHING "crew-served" should be cut from those two units, immediately, or given a "fire OR move" requirement, as Heavy Weapons have had in previous editions.

Also you really don't need Combat Squad when the total of your Special Weapon + Heavy Weapon Infantry squad is barely over the bare Tactical Squad. You can move forward all you like.

The point. You've missed it.

The point wasn't about the actual kitted out points value total--it's that the HWTs shouldn't be able to move and fire if the squad did. That's why I keep talking about how we need to see the weapons split out or given the ability to 'detach' and get treated as Characters or get a Shield Drone-esque save when non-HWTs are nearby.

I agree with you that IG man-packed heavy weapons should not be able to move & shoot. That's why you mount them on vehicles, or invent power & termie armor.... But I will never agree with you that they shouldn't be part of the squads options.
Look, if YOU don't want to include them in your squads? That's fine, don't spend the points. But me? When I field guard, my squads come prepared.... And if we move? We don't HAVE to fire them if that violates our sensibilities. I don't know about you, but 10, 15, 20+ years ago? Back when we couldn't move & shoot our heavies in the same turn? I killed plenty of targets, won plenty of games. And since the things I'm shooting at today haven't appreciably changed, I'm sure I can repeat that success. My current opponents will look at me funny though because they can't fathom why I'd not fire if allowed.

I'm somewhere in the middle. I think mortars and missile launchers should be able to move and shoot (with penalty) but can see why it makes less sense for the tripod setup weapons.

**stormcraft**

Review Videos are up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4qY8iokLh0

No new rules or Buffs for GK at all.

This is deeply dissapointing.

And the fac that they buffed all of 40k besides normal Marines/CSM is really hard to understand tbh.

I really dont get the logic or thougt process on that.

**Smirrors**

https://youtu.be/IJFlozvV8K0

For those that think these leaks could be a honeypot, table top tactics has done a preview. About the 50 minute mark

**chnmmr**

stormcraft wrote:
Review Videos are up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4qY8iokLh0

No new rules or Buffs for GK at all.

This is deeply dissapointing.

And the fac that they buffed all of 40k besides normal Marines/CSM is really hard to understand tbh.

I really dont get the logic or thougt process on that.

The lack of GK fixes is insane. I have 5k of GKs that haven’t seen use for two editions and seems that they’ll never see use until maybe the next edition. I don’t understand GWs hatred for GKs. Looks like I will be selling my GKs on, they take up space for nothing and are a waste of money. Big winners in Chapter approved my arse. *fuming*

**Smirrors**

The only logic is that they want to phase out certain units and perhaps a codex on the horizon.

**SHUPPET**

5 point Cultists will still be played. People mass termagants. Termagants that can shoot twice, with better armor, and amazing buffs? 5 points is fair enough. CSM squads should have gotten a point reduction its insane to me that they didn't, especially the difference between loyalist and traitor Terminators? What the?

Swarmlord getting a price discount and the meta dominating Imperial soup getting left alone is just stupid.

I think it's an overall net positive. Baby steps. GW will get better at this and I think I'd rather a cautious approach than a heavy handed one.

**Karol**

so -1 to hit stayed. Well I guess there is still springs FAQ.

**Daedalus81**

SHUPPET wrote:
5 point Cultists will still be played. People mass termagants. Termagants that can shoot twice, with better armor, and amazing buffs? 5 points is fair enough. CSM squads should have gotten a point reduction its insane to me that they didn't, especially the difference between loyalist and traitor Terminators? What the?

Swarmlord getting a price discount and the meta dominating Imperial soup getting left alone is just stupid.

I think it's an overall net positive. Baby steps. GW will get better at this and I think I'd rather a cautious approach than a heavy handed one.

Loyalist vs CSM termies has to be an error that will get FAQ'd. That or they really screwed something up.

**The Newman**

stormcraft wrote:
Review Videos are up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4qY8iokLh0

No new rules or Buffs for GK at all.

This is deeply dissapointing.

And the fac that they buffed all of 40k besides normal Marines/CSM is really hard to understand tbh.

I really dont get the logic or thougt process on that.

Just more fuel for the "GW is going to squat old-marines" train there.

The points drops had me thinking about picking up some Sternguard and another Dreadnaught for a couple of minutes, and then it sunk in (again) that I already regret buying all the stuff I own that isn't Primaris and I'm probably going to regret it more at some point in the not-to-distant future.

(Although I've said several times that the Centurions look like something that would wind up in the Primaris line, and the massive point drop there gives me further hope that I'm right about them sticking around.)