The Power Armor Problem

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**Asherian Command**

Karol wrote:
Well if SoB were 6-7pts, then the amount of armor would be enough for a 6++ to be a more deciding factor. If your saving one in six dudes when you have 60 dudes and the opposing army can kill 30 of them per turn, it ain't that good. But if have 200 people and rate of fire still only kills 40-50 dudes you still have 3/4 of your army to wreck stuff up.

Now if sisters really were 7pts, IG people would probably go insane.

Lets be honest if they were 8pts IG people would go insane and call foul.

If Sisters got a massive anti-tank arsenal or anti-titan weaponry, IG would go insane.

**davidgr33n**

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

No amount of cheaper armor is going to answer the fact you can spam special weapons that just so happen to kill things on a 3+ and ignore their armor for cheaper than the other guy can stock more bodies.

I’d like to see some numbers to back up your statement. I’ve been playing Sisters for 20 years and have yet to run into this secret discovery of yours.

**Vaktathi**

Asherian Command wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well if SoB were 6-7pts, then the amount of armor would be enough for a 6++ to be a more deciding factor. If your saving one in six dudes when you have 60 dudes and the opposing army can kill 30 of them per turn, it ain't that good. But if have 200 people and rate of fire still only kills 40-50 dudes you still have 3/4 of your army to wreck stuff up.

Now if sisters really were 7pts, IG people would probably go insane.

Lets be honest if they were 8pts IG people would go insane and call foul.

If Sisters got a massive anti-tank arsenal or anti-titan weaponry, IG would go insane.

w....why?

Aside from some of the fluff sillyness with some aspects, why would IG in particular (and not other factions) be upset about Sisters getting new stuff?

As for Sisters at 8pts, again, I dont see too many Guard players being upset by that. SoB's have usually been overcosted in most editions, usually being at, or just barely above, twice what a guardsmen cost. 8ppm slots well into that paradigm and looks good next to Stormtroopers (better save, longer range gun with better S, AoF, but no DS, no Orders, no AP-2, fewer special weapons) as well.

I'm not seeing any issues on the face of it personally.

**A.T.**

Asherian Command wrote:
They have a lot of promise much more promise that grey knights. But you could be literally anyone but a grey knight player to succeed.

From your comments you don't appear to be either a sororitas or a grey knight player, or to really know much about either faction.
You may find some value in borrowing the books and getting them on the table.

**Asherian Command**

A.T. wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
They have a lot of promise much more promise that grey knights. But you could be literally anyone but a grey knight player to succeed.
From your comments you don't appear to be either a sororitas or a grey knight player, or to really know much about either faction.
You may find some value in borrowing the books and getting them on the table.

Mostly taking from comments i've read and just what general grey knight players have told me is that they are not a viable mono-army as of current.

Sisters on the otherhand I don't know its mostly guess work till their full codex and models come out. Till then its mostly me speculating.

**Amishprn86**

Asherian Command wrote:
A.T. wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
They have a lot of promise much more promise that grey knights. But you could be literally anyone but a grey knight player to succeed.
From your comments you don't appear to be either a sororitas or a grey knight player, or to really know much about either faction.
You may find some value in borrowing the books and getting them on the table.

Mostly taking from comments i've read and just what general grey knight players have told me is that they are not a viable mono-army as of current.

Sisters on the otherhand I don't know its mostly guess work till their full codex and models come out. Till then its mostly me speculating.

Is any Imperial army really good enough to mono at this point? Lets be honest about it... No

**Eihnlazer**

Mono-marines are fine, especially now with sniper scouts 13 points each.

Guilliman Sniper Squad is a legit thing atm due to CA and is absolutely terrifying.

**Bharring**

What factions are?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Eihnlazer wrote:
Mono-marines are fine, especially now with sniper scouts 13 points each.

Guilliman Sniper Squad is a legit thing atm due to CA and is absolutely terrifying.

They're certainly BETTER than they were, but it isn't scary as you're wanting to believe. You would need 8-10 Sniper Scouts next to Roboute to even kill a Guard Commander. That's a hefty investment.

**Bharring**

Edit: MW was a little high (assumed T4 for that part). Oops.

Not going to redo the math.

**Mmmpi**

Marmatag wrote:

1. It does happen, it's not my fault you don't play good opponents that know how to minimize attacks to stay locked in combat. For example, Tyranid Genstealers desperately want to kill your squads on *your* turn. I play this army. If i can finagle it so a squad stays locked in, rather than killing a unit after i charge, especially against a gunline army like sisters, that's a huge win for me. But, I have to commit some attacks. I have no choice. You must attack if you're in range to do so. That means you can pull the squad on my turn as opposed to your turn, stopping me from overruning into your back line before I get my move, shoot, charge. Orks do this great as well, they want to stay locked in so they can pile in and lock everything up with gigantic blobs. And it all starts by charging your screening units or basic infantry. Stop being obtuse man.

2. A save is a save. Just remember next time you see a marine player pulling his 13 point guys off of the table saying "i don't get a save," remember that you will, and that's a big deal. You'll be rolling your 6++ as though you had a feel no pain that negates multiple damage against those -4 weapons that are actually pretty damn common - Rending Claws, Hemlocks, Wraithguards, Blasters, etc.

3. Absolutely clownish reply. There are downsides to buffing it? There are downsides potentially to EVERY choice you make in the game, except to bring the Loyal32 + possibly more if you can. I can't even with this nonsense. There are potential downsides to getting out of bed in the morning. The possibility of a downside doesn't mean having a choice to buff your units is bad, holy insert here, batman.

1. Exact opposite actually. Five girl squads tend to just die entirely. So next time don't assume about my opponents.

2. A save is a save, and small arms, las cannons, and plasma are still far more common than melta and wraith weapons.

3. You claim to be a good player and you post this? Really? How about that has to stay in a 6" bubble? How about the part where it prevents use of mech? The part where it slows the army down? Get back to be when you L2P.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Eihnlazer wrote:
Mono-marines are fine, especially now with sniper scouts 13 points each.

Guilliman Sniper Squad is a legit thing atm due to CA and is absolutely terrifying.

They're certainly BETTER than they were, but it isn't scary as you're wanting to believe. You would need 8-10 Sniper Scouts next to Roboute to even kill a Guard Commander. That's a hefty investment.

It's one squad, in an army that takes more than that. If sniping is the goal, then slightly higher cost over regular scouts is worth it.

**Marmatag**

Mmmpi wrote:

3. You claim to be a good player and you post this? Really? How about that has to stay in a 6" bubble? How about the part where it prevents use of mech? The part where it slows the army down? Get back to be when you L2P.

Laughable reply.

"It's too hard to get a 6" bubble" -No one, because every army depends on them in some way or another.

**Mmmpi**

Marmatag wrote:
Mmmpi wrote:

3. You claim to be a good player and you post this? Really? How about that has to stay in a 6" bubble? How about the part where it prevents use of mech? The part where it slows the army down? Get back to be when you L2P.

Laughable reply.

"It's too hard to get a 6" bubble" -No one, because every army depends on them in some way or another.

I said downside. Not sure how you managed "too hard" out of that. At this point I'm questioning the capabilities of your local school system's English department.

**Karol**

Well it is one thing getting it on 3 units of hellblasters that want to hug an ancient and a grandmaster, which all have nice range on their weapons, and another on units that don't want to be next to each other. Maybe if AoF weren't changed or if hvy bolter sisters were really good, it would be different.

But in general the good sister stuff, will have it hard to be within 6" of an HQ for most of the game.

Plus, although this is not a sisters problem, bases can be a problem with 6" range. Can't fit 15 paladins, a ndk and draigo in to a 6" bubble.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Marmatag wrote:
Mmmpi wrote:

3. You claim to be a good player and you post this? Really? How about that has to stay in a 6" bubble? How about the part where it prevents use of mech? The part where it slows the army down? Get back to be when you L2P.

Laughable reply.

"It's too hard to get a 6" bubble" -No one, because every army depends on them in some way or another.

That poster hasn't even replied with what Snipers were threats in the first place, so I listed what was I believe the comprehensive list of targeting characters rules and asked them to point out which was a threat to even a Guard Commander. Got no response.

**Bremon**

Eihnlazer wrote:
Mono-marines are fine, especially now with sniper scouts 13 points each.

Guilliman Sniper Squad is a legit thing atm due to CA and is absolutely terrifying.

So mono Ultras. Cool.

**niv-mizzet**

Eihnlazer wrote:
Mono-marines are fine, especially now with sniper scouts 13 points each.

Guilliman Sniper Squad is a legit thing atm due to CA and is absolutely terrifying.

No it really isn’t. Because you can still just shoot the scouts.

**kombatwombat**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That poster hasn't even replied with what Snipers were threats in the first place, so I listed what was I believe the comprehensive list of targeting characters rules and asked them to point out which was a threat to even a Guard Commander. Got no response.

You mentioned Deathmarks. 10 non-Meprhit Deathmarks in rapid fire range with no buffs kills a Cannoness in one go. If you stack up My Will Be Done, Mephrit dynastic code, Mephrit Stratagem and a Lord’s aura you can just about scrape her to death with four Deathmarks in rapid fire or 8 from 24” away. That’s actually not a bad points investment to take out the lynchpin of your opponent’s army. Snipers aren’t meant to be cost effective, they’re meant to mess up your opponent’s synergy.

**Slayer-Fan123**

kombatwombat wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That poster hasn't even replied with what Snipers were threats in the first place, so I listed what was I believe the comprehensive list of targeting characters rules and asked them to point out which was a threat to even a Guard Commander. Got no response.

You mentioned Deathmarks. 10 non-Meprhit Deathmarks in rapid fire range with no buffs kills a Cannoness in one go. If you stack up My Will Be Done, Mephrit dynastic code, Mephrit Stratagem and a Lord’s aura you can just about scrape her to death with four Deathmarks in rapid fire. That’s actually not a bad points investment to take out the lynchpin of your opponent’s army. Snipers aren’t meant to be cost effective, they’re meant to mess up your opponent’s synergy.

I DID list Deathmarks. I also listed the Mephrit Warlord trait with their special Staff weapon.

Your scenario also requires two separate HQ units and a CP to kill what's maybe a 50 point HQ.

**kombatwombat**

Going back to the quote that started this particular line of debate:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
You could try running 120+ model blobs but you'll lose to any army that can quickly lock you into combat, can snipe your 5 wound Canoness, can out maneuver your incredibly slow infantry blob, or can simply outshoot your frankly pathetic offensive output.

Also "sniping" characters is laughable. You can't even snipe Guard Commanders and they're WAY less durable!

With a 170pt Deathmarks unit with zero stratagems, Dynastic Codes or support characters in Rapid Fire range you will kill a Cannoness. Which means ERJAK was right, a Cannoness can be sniped, and sniping characters is not laughable. It’s a steepish points investment (though a 3:1 investment to kill a target in one turn isn’t the worst), but snipers’ value isn’t in the character they kill, but the debuff of the units around the target caused my eliminating a lynchpin character.

**JohnHwangDD**

OMG. Just recost SMs at 15 pts per model as in 3E, and be done.

**Mmmpi**

Just give it a second John. They'll be calling for your blood soon...

**kombatwombat**

Nah just give them Primaris statlines and weapons, then send them back to the 3E 15ppm. Job done.

**JohnHwangDD**

Mmmpi wrote:
Just give it a second John. They'll be calling for your blood soon...

Eh, from what I read, it's not like any of them can play for gak. All scrubs and n00bs.

**Ghorgul**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Yes I would. Rhinos are oddly positioned at 72 points. But why would I take grey knights in rhinos that can be exploded by anything? It is a vehicle that has protection against high-end weaponry. If a land raider or a predator tank had access to an invulnerable save they would be a bit more valuable.

If you think your Rhinos are more valuable against my Baneblade company with a 6++ than they otherwise wood be, then let me blow your mind:
What if I told you that my Baneblades let you have a 6+ anyways while they completely annihilated 3-4 Rhinos a turn?

Your Baneblades are silly, cheesy undercosted units compared to Rhinos so your comment is not really fair. Or alternatively Baneblade is correctly priced and Rhinos are overcosted.

Rhinos pay 72 points for 10 T7 3+ Wounds with little firepower. That's 7 points per wound.
Baneblade pays 390 points for 26 T8 3+ Wounds with Baneblade Battle Cannon.
Baneblade cannon being Heavy3D6 S9 AP -3 Dmg. 3 is roughly Lascannon equivalent (S9 AP -3 Dmg. 1D6), so it should cost roughly 3x3.5x25 ~ 262 points, but I'm going to be generous and give it 50 point discount because you can target only one unit so we arrive at 212 point cost for Baneblade Battle Cannon when scaled with Lascannons.
This way we end up Baneblade costing 178 points for 26 T8 3+ Wounds, so Baneblade ends up costing about 7 points per wound, which can't be locked in melee and is actually quite a beast also in melee, unlike the rhino. Also the T7-T8 breakpoint is important and increases durability significantly.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
OMG. Just recost SMs at 15 pts per model as in 3E, and be done.

Might as well just remove them completely if this is your solution.

**Amishprn86**

All vehicles need to be able to move out of CC vs Infantry without penalty IMO, Monster or other Vehicles should be like it is now.

This is a change i ask for all the time.

**JohnHwangDD**

Ghorgul wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
OMG. Just recost SMs at 15 pts per model as in 3E, and be done.
Might as well just remove them completely if this is your solution.

That's probably the best suggestion so far, but then what else would the no-skill n00bs play?

**Karol**

Am not sure what skill in w40k is, because most of the good list play more or less by themselfs. And only "tactics" are mild exploits, like the ITC uncharable buildings etc

**JohnHwangDD**

40k skill is in list building, not on the tabletop, and a big component of list building is buying the new, expensive shiny.

To that end, SM exist as an army that is cheap to acquire and easy to play, forgiving of minor mistakes. That's why they're in the starter box. But they should never be competitive against an army that a player has to spend more money on. Hell, they shouldn't even be fun or good. Their entire point of existing is as a gateway to selling the players a better, more expensive army.

If anyone hasn't figured that out, they are kinda slow.

**Ice_can**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
40k skill is in list building, not on the tabletop, and a big component of list building is buying the new, expensive shiny.

To that end, SM exist as an army that is cheap to acquire and easy to play, forgiving of minor mistakes. That's why they're in the starter box. But they should never be competitive against an army that a player has to spend more money on. Hell, they shouldn't even be fun or good. Their entire point of existing is as a gateway to selling the players a better, more expensive army.

If anyone hasn't figured that out, they are kinda slow.

Would just be nice if something other then Eldar was the top choice. The flavour mat change edition to edition but it's still the same old eldar cheese.