Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
The "smoke settled" because we moved into the dead period of the ITC during the Christmas season. Unless every competitive podcast I listen to is 100% wrong they are predicted to be a top-tier codex and something to be feared going into the LVO. Also, you ever think that the top ork codex player isn't higher cause we are at the very end of the ITC season and they just now got their codex?
Off topic, we're discussing the strengths of GUARDSMEN not Orks but rest assured the strength of the Ork codex is not down to under priced troop options.
Throwing around 'B b b but Orks won a GT!!!11' is not a defence of the cost of Guardsmen. How many GTs have primary Guard lists won? A few more than 1 I suspect.
The "smoke settled" because we moved into the dead period of the ITC during the Christmas season. Unless every competitive podcast I listen to is 100% wrong they are predicted to be a top-tier codex and something to be feared going into the LVO. Also, you ever think that the top ork codex player isn't higher cause we are at the very end of the ITC season and they just now got their codex?
Off topic, we're discussing the strengths of GUARDSMEN not Orks but rest assured the strength of the Ork codex is not down to under priced troop options.
Throwing around 'B b b but Orks won a GT!!!11' is not a defence of the cost of Guardsmen. How many GTs have primary Guard lists won? A few more than 1 I suspect.
7ppm Boyz Vs 4ppm Guardsmen explains in a nutshell why Guard are under priced...or conversely why boyz are severely over priced
I am more of the mind that Guardsmen should be 5ppm and Boyz should be 6ppm.
wait....the new codex that isn't hot garbage won a single GT right after it dropped before competitive players had a chance to learn how to counter the newest codex? Go figure.....almost like we don't have a track record of this exact thing happening repetitively.
How good is the top ranked ork player in ITC? You know, since the codex is great and all, at least according to your metric that they wont a GT. Well turns out its a guy named Richard Kilton who is currently ranked....68th in the world. Ohh and the only GT he was in he placed 3rd, and one of his top 4 games on record was index, not codex. So unarguably the best Ork player in the world is only 68th. Maybe you shouldn't factor in 1 or even a couple tournament results vs the overwhelming data that says otherwise
And what metric do I use? simple, how cheap/cost efficient is the unit. Guardsmen without buffs cost 40pts, fill up a troop slot and do metric fethloads of things better than ork boyz can...and can do everything better than Grotz can do who are 3ppm. T2, S2 WS 5+ 6+ save, so why are grotz 1 point cheaper but Guard are 3pts cheaper than boyz? Almost like boyz or guard aren't priced properly.
Flip the script. If some rando can come to the table with Orks and smash face then Orks are in a pretty good place even when people learn to adjust.
And we're not talking small margin wins.
Flip the table? How so? The best ork player isn't even in the top 50. He also isn't a rando as much as the best ork player in the world. your analogy is broken from the start. And I haven't seen orkz smashing faces as of late. Once the smoke settled they are settling in to mid tier as I predicted. Do you have more information to provide that shows them winning lots of games? and if so, how many boyz did they take to keep this on topic in regards to IG being under priced.
The "smoke settled" because we moved into the dead period of the ITC during the Christmas season. Unless every competitive podcast I listen to is 100% wrong they are predicted to be a top-tier codex and something to be feared going into the LVO. Also, you ever think that the top ork codex player isn't higher cause we are at the very end of the ITC season and they just now got their codex?
Spoiler:
November 2018
Friday Night iTC Fight, San Antonio, TX, November 2nd, 2018
Warhammer 40KRTT: Extra Life Edition, Military Gamer Supply, El Paso, TX, November 3rd, 2018
Kelowna 40k Tournament 2, Quantum Games, Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada, November 3-4th, 2018
Mid-MO Maelstrom, Ashland MO, November 3rd, 2018
Cataclysm Clash of Champions, Machesney Park IL, November 3rd, 2018
Fargo Badlands RTT, Fargo, ND, November 3rd, 2018
Armacon: Stavanger Singels Championship 40k 2018, Sola, Norway, November 3rd, 2018
Mugu Games’ November 3rd, 2000 ITC Event “Turkey Time”, Everett, WA, November 3rd, 2018
GT: The Steel City Showdown!, Legions Hobbies and Games, Pittsburgh, PA, November 3-4th, 2018
GT: WH40k: Grand Tournament!, Power 9 Games, North Las Vegas, NV, November 3-4th, 2018
GT: Overwatch Open V 2000pt ITC 40k Event, New South Wales, Australia, November 3-4th, 2018
GT: Scottish Take Over 4 GT, The Seaforth Club, Elgin, United Kingdom, November 3-4th, 2018
Dragon’s Lair 1750 Point40K ITC Tournament, Austin, TX, November 4th, 2018
Tournament of Legends Nov 2018, Legends Comics and Games, San Jose, CA, November 4th, 2018
Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Tournament November, Critical Hit Games Cafe, Liverpool, United Kingdom, November 4th, 2018
ITC 40K Tournament, MJ Cards and Comics, Wasilla, AK, November 10th, 2018
November Warhammer 40k 2k Tournament, Dice N Duels, Fernley, NV, November 10th, 2018
Warhammer 40K Tournament, Recess Games, North Olmsted, OH, November 10th, 2018
40K 8th Edition Scenario Showdown!, Jack’s on Queen, Ontario, Canada, November 10th, 2018
Warhammer 40k ITC Team Tournament, Game Empire Pasadena, Pasadena, CA, November 10th, 2018
Titan Games And Hobbies November RTT, Lutherville-Timonium, MD, November 10th, 2018
Conquest 2018, Comics Compulsion, Christchurch, New Zealand, November 10-11th, 2018
Realm WH40k Q4 ITC Tournament, The Realm Games & Comics, Brea, CA, November 10th, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40k Tournament, Gamer’s Hollow, Nacogdoches, TX, November 11th, 2018
GT: Da Boyz Singles Warhammer 40K Grand Tournament, Henrietta, NY, November 10-11th, 2018
MAJOR: Warzone: Atlanta 2018, Atlanta, GA, November 10-11th, 2018
Da Momma’s Boyz Fall Bash, Moscow, ID, November 10-11th, 2018
LBK Tour 43, Linkoping, Sweden, November 11th, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40K Mid Week, Campbelltown, Australia, November 15th, 2018
Warhammer 40k ITC Tournaments, Paragon City Games, Draper, UT, November 17th, 2018
Warhammer 40k ITC “Champions Missions” Tournament, Green Tower Games, Santa Clarita, CA, November 17th, 2018
Warhammer 40K: Fallen Heroes Event, Campbelltown, Australia, November 17th, 2018
Dicehammer November 40k ITC Tournament, Lake Forest CA, November 17th, 2018
Portal Warhammer 40K 2,000 Point ITC Tournament, Bethlehem PA, November 17th, 2018
Knuckle-Buster Warhammer 40k 2000pts, Legacy Defined Games, Killeen, TX, November 17th, 2018
Slaughterfest 2018, Philomath, OR, November 17th, 2018
Warhammer 40k local 2000point, Dirt Road Comics and Collectibles, Willow Springs, MO, November 17th, 2018
Imps Open 2018, England, United Kingdom, November 17th, 2018
November Bel Air Games 40kRTT, Bel Air, MD, November 17th, 2018
Navigator Challenge V, Goblin Gaming, Northwich, England, November 17th, 2018
7th Annual Turkey Shoot, TC War Room, Traverse City, MI, November 17th, 2018
Renegade BeerHammer, Plymouth, MN, November 17th, 2018
MAJOR: Renegade Open GT, Plymouth, MN, November 17-18th, 2018
GT: There Will Be Blood GT, Imperial Outpost, Glendale, AZ, November 17-18th, 2018
MAJOR: Alliance Open – 40K – Dutch Grand Tournament, Hoofddorp, Netherlands, November 17-18th, 2018
Jolt Games Warhammer 40K ITC Competitive Tournaments, Mitchell, Australian Capital Territory, November 17th, 2018
The Tanksgiving Open by AG 2018, Adventure Games, Dickson City, PA, November 18th, 2018
Battle For Utopia, Modesto CA, November 18th, 2018
November 1650 ITC At The Gobbo, Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada, November 18th, 2018
The War Zone Way, Monthly 40KRTT, Mattoon, IL, November 18th, 2018
Hobbytown Kennesaw 40k Tournament, Kennesaw, GA, November 24th, 2018
Warhammer 40K ITC Monthly event, Tier 1 Cards & Games, Anchorage, AK, November 24th, 2018
HFX Games 40k Nov 2018 Tournament, Dartmouth, NS, November 24th, 2018
Command Zone Games & Hobbies Warhammer 40K Tournament, Hanford, CA, November 24th, 2018
Warhammer 40K ITC Monthly event, Tier 1 Cards & Games, Anchorage, AK, November 24th, 2018
Warhammer 40k @ Silver Dragon Tavern, Miami, FL, November 24th, 2018
Saskatoon ‘Ard Boyz 2018, Saskatoon, Canada, November 24th, 2018
November 24th Geekery 40k Tournament, Shawnee, KS, November 24th, 2018
Critical Fail RTT ITC, Sir Games-A-Lot, Ontario, Canada, November 24th, 2018
Sword and Board Open, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, November 24th, 2018
Rumble in Romford Nov 2018, Hornchurch Essex, United Kingdom, November 24th, 2018
40K United’s Turkey Tango, Miniature Market Retail Superstore, St. Louis, MO, November 24th, 2018
Gameology 40K ITC Tournament, Gameology, Montclair, CA, November 24th, 2018
MAJOR: Element Games Grand Slam – 40k, Element Games North West Gaming Centre, Stockport, England, November 24-25th, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40K 3 Weekday Tournament, Campbelltown, Australia, November 28th, 2018
December 2018
WH40k: ITC Tournament, Power 9 Games, North Las Vegas, NV, December 1st, 2018
Fat ogre Christmas Tournament, Spring, TX, December 1st, 2018
Grimdark RTT, San Antonio ,TX, December 1st, 2018
SÃO PAULO CLASH – Tournament Of WH40k, Sao Paulo, Brazil, December 1st, 2018
The War College ITC 2k, Aurora, CO, December 1st, 2018
The Gathering Games Warhammer 40k ITC Winter Brawl, The Gathering Games, New Richmond, WI, December 1st, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40K 1 Day Tournament, Campbelltown, Australia, December 1st, 2018
Dicehammer December Doubles 40k ITC Tournament, Lake Forest CA, December 1st, 2018
GT: Allies of Convenience Wales GT, Firestorm Games, Cardiff, Wales, December 1-2nd, 2018
No Surrender 40K, Woolston Club Inc., Christchurch, New Zealand, December 1-2nd, 2018
GT: Nowhere GT: Warhammer 40K, Military Gamer Supply, El Paso, TX, December 1-2nd, 2018
GT: 4th Annual Portal Warhammer 40kGT, The Portal, Manchester, CT, December 1-2nd, 2018
MAJOR: Games of Westeros V (Westeros ITC IX), Västerås, Sweden, December 1-2nd, 2018
Scroogehammer Invitational RTT, Louisville, KY, December 2nd, 2018
The Twisted Road To The LCO, England, December 2nd, 2018
Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Tournament December, Critical Hit Games Cafe, Liverpool United Kingdom, December 2nd, 2018
Big Easy 40k Warhammer Tournament, Covington, LA, December 8th, 2018
Dragons Den ITC Tournament, Dragons Den, Grand Haven, MI, December 8th, 2018
Bourbon Brothers Child’s Play Fundraiser, Louisville, KY, December 8th, 2018
Tate’s Eighth day Of Exterminatus 40kRTT, Lauderhill FL, December 8th, 2018
Bismarck Badlands RTT, Bismarck ND, December 8th, 2018
December 40kRTT, Pittsburgh PA, December 8th, 2018
CWL 40K Open, Sentry Box, Alberta, Canada, December 8th, 2018
The Rudder GT, Alder Security, Orem, UT, December 8-9th, 2018
Athoria December Rtt, Mesa, AZ, December 9th, 2018
LBK Tour 44, Linkoping, Sweden, December 9th, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40K 3 Weekday Tournament, Campbelltown, Australia, December 12th, 2018
Merry Slaaneshmas 2018, Aberdeen, WA, December 15th, 2018
Warhammer 40K Tournament, Recess Games, North Olmsted, OH, December 15th, 2018
Gamehaven Dec RTT, St. George ,UT, December 15th, 2018
Warhammer 40k Champions Missions 2,000pt Tournament, Green Tower Games, Santa Clarita, CA, December 15th, 2018
Guild Gaming RTT December 2018, Woodbridge, VA, December 15th, 2018
Winter Solstice Showdown, The Game Closet, Waco, TX, December 15th, 2018
Warhammer 40,000 ITC 1 Day Tournament, Campbelltown, Australia, December 15th, 2018
40k ITC Tournament, Game Nite, St. Louis, MO, December 15th, 2018
GT: Bel Air Crucible Of Winter GT, Bel Air, MD, December 15-16th, 2018
GT: A Cutthroat Christmas 40kGT, HobbyTown Westminster, CO, December 15-16th, 2018
Christmas 40k Tournament: Tri-Hards Cup, Memory Lane Antique Mall, Gate City, VA, December 15th, 2018
Gamer’s Haven December 40K ITC Tournament, Colton, CA, December 16th, 2018
AG Presents: The Fight Before Christmas 2018, Adventure Games, Dickson City, PA, December 16th, 2018
Fanatix 40k December ITC 2000 Point RTT, Enterprise, AL, December 16th, 2018
Merry Crushmas 40k! Presented By The Imperial Pimps, The Garage: Games & Geekery, British Columbia, Canada, December 16th, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40K 3 Weekday Tournament, Campbelltown, Australia, December 19th, 2018
I’m Not Good Enough For A GT, Fountain, CO, December 22nd, 2018
Tantum est Fortis – Warhammer 40k Tournament, Gam3Escape, Hilo, HI, December 23rd, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40k Winter Tournament Circuit – Tourney Two, The Armchair Adventurer, Honolulu, HI, December 29th, 2018
Command Zone Games & Hobbies Warhammer 40K Tournament, Hanford, CA, December 29th, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40k Winter Tournament Circuit – Tourney Two, Honolulu, HI, December 29th, 2018
Ylva Open III, Gothenburg, Sweden, December 29th, 2018
Warhammer 40k @ Silver Dragon, Miami, FL, December 29th, 2018
2nd Annual Porter Potluck, Oakville, WA, December 29th, 2018
RTT: End Times at the Tower: Warhammer 40k Tournament, Dark Tower Games, Bellingham, WA, December 29th, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40K Weekend Tournament, Campbelltown, Australia, December 29th, 2018
End of year celebration, Dirt Road Comics and Collectibles, Willow Springs, MO, December 29th, 2018
Westeros ITC RTT #4, Vasteras, Sweden, December 30th, 2018
That is a fair amount of tournaments in November alone, let alone December But that is a fair point. But again, the best ork player in the game has better Index ratings than Codex
Yeah unless he's planning on going every weekend to an event both months and being in multiple places at once its really no too many . We will see but i really think they are going to be good and all indicators are pointing to them being very competative so far.
HWS aren't seen? When half the reason the rule of 3 exists is because people were taking 15+ mortar teams in their lists?
There's lots of reasons for the rule of 3, who knows what the specifics in GW's minds were. That said; two points. First, HWS's are, much like basic guardsmen, fundamentally intended to be spammed. They're cheap and small and are the only concentrated source of heavy weapons not stuck to a tank. Last time you could take them as an HS choice on their own it used to have to be in a heavy weapons platoon. Second, with respect to 8E, how often do we see them as anything but detachment fillers, and how often do we see them with arguably very cost effective weapons like autocannons or lascannon? Almost never.
Special weapons squads and veteran squads aren't seen because their job is done better by Command Squads and Scions who have the same special weapons access but get deep strike/don't have to take lasgun bodies.
When there is a unit that is strong to decent, but there exists a 100% better version that uses the same models, you'll basicaly never see that unit no matter how good they might be.
1 for 1 they absolutely are better, no question, but a large contention in this thread has been over cost effectiveness.
Lets go back to the earlier Guard vs Sisters example and look at killing power per squad against Marines. We'll assume no Doctrines for now.
Looking at an Infantry Squad with a mortar, PG, and PP, and FRFSRF for 57pts we inflict 2.66 wounds, or 21.43pts per wound output per turn.
SWS w/3 Plasmas is 45pts.
With FRFSRF on lasguns and 3 PG's, that unit is inflicting killing 2.75 Marines a turn, or about 16.36pts per wound output per turn.
A command squad with 4 plasma guns is 68pts
FRFSRF doesn't apply, so it's just the 4 BS3+ PG's, so this unit is killing 3.7 Marines per turn, or about 18.38pts per wound output per turn.
Veterans with 3 plasma guns and a PP cost 88pts
With FRFSRF they're inflicting 5.01 marine wounds a turn, or 17.56pts per wound output per turn.
A min sized Stormtrooper squad with 2 PG's and a PP costs 72pts. (These guys have DS so that's a factor that isn't accounted for here but does explain their popular effectiveness otherwise)
With FRFSRF on 2 hotshot lasguns and 5 PG shots, that unit is killing 3.5 Marines per turn, or about 20.57pts per wound output per turn.
The Special Weapons Squad is, mathematically, the most cost effective unit in this evaluation in terms of damage output, the Infantry Squad being almost a full third more expensive per wound generated. The SWS has the lowest absolute damage output aside from the IS, but offers the biggest bang for your buck, and are clearly more resilient than the command squads and arent too far behind the Stormtroopers, yet, we rarely ever see them, even just to fill small points gaps really.
On that note...I honestly cant recall seeing a command squad in any list in recent history either.
So, we have a grip of units that are roughly as cost effective as Infantry Squads, definitively moreso in an offensive context, that nobody uses. All of them are relatively cost effective, but we really only see a couple of these units ever. There should be plenty of room in any large IG army for them with the rule of 3 in play, we should see horde IG armies showing up and doing well at large events, but largely dont. Why then is the focus on Infantry Squads and their ubiquitousness then?
Because they're the one that fills out detachments for CP
So just to be clear your 57pt infantry squad kills 34.58 poiny of marine's or 61% in a single round of shooting.
Thats rediculous returns for a base infanty unit.
What you haven't taken into consideration in that maths is how many casualties dies it take to half the units fire power?
Why, in a post where you say "it's not cheaper, by 35 points" presumably referring to the 180 point Guard Battalion and the 215 point sisters battalion, do you give the guard squads a plasma gun and a mortar each and the sisters squads two meltas and a plasma?
None of those things are in the minimum detachments. You're also looking here at 332 points of sisters versus 222 points of guardsmen...and the guardsmen still do more damage, lol.
You have to resort to "versus marines, in a detachment entirely unlike the detachments we're actually talking about, within 12", and with 100 more points, guardsmen only do very slightly more damage" to try and muddy the waters at this point.
Please, keep going, I'm having a wonderful time. Next analyze 600 points of fire warriors vs 180 points of guardsmen at 25" range to prove why fire warriors are better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The minimum sisters of battle detachment is 35 points more, which is 210 points of sisters with BOLTGUNS, not special weapons.
They do less than half as much damage against all targets, at all ranges. They move half as much. They die at a faster rate to all weapons, from lasguns on up. They have half the footprint on the table.
They have one, and exactly one, redeeming feature, which you mentioned: DTW attempts. Imperial Guard can add DTW attempts at 25pts per, if they want them.
Those weapons aren't in the minimum detachment. But that's not what people here have generally asked when talking about those. Sorry I didn't post a phonebook of all the various ways you can point out each detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Also...wait...the math is just wrong here. He's got the mortar and laspistol numbers from 3 squads of guardsmen, the lasgun numbers are for 4.5 squads of guardsmen, and the plasma gun numbers are for 4 squads of guardsmen.
I think this is all just made up. The sisters are also doing 25% more damage with their plasma than they should be, 25% more with their melta, half as much with their bolters...
Yeah this is all just a fantasy.
Nope, three plasma guns for the guard, and the lasguns are FRF'ing. Keep in mind that the mortar teams have a lasgun each.
I've been following the last couple of pages of discussion waiting for someone to explain how taking the absolute minimum needed to meet CP requirements, implying that there is no reason to take them besides farming CPs, constitutes using them 'en masse'. At best it sounds like they're the most useful CP-farming choice, which is first and foremost a matter of cheapness rather than anything they do on the table.
So why it is always the Guard and not other factions that can also generate CP cheaply such as SoB or Ad Mech?
Flexibility.
You need them to do more damage? FRFSRF.
You need them to run and gun? FftE.
You need them to fallback and shoot? GBitF.
You need them to be on an objective faster than a bike could be? MMM.
You need them to fight twice? FB.
You want a unit of Catachans to move, shoot with FRFSRF, charge, and then fight twice? You can do that.
You want to put more orders on? Consolidate squads.
You need them to have a 4+ save? Easy.
You want to toss 10 frag grenades with reroll 1s to wound? Sure.
And that doesn't really scratch all that you can do as most people ignore anything outside Cadian and Catachan.
Want to point out that guard aren't fighting twice in the same turn as all the rest, at least not with orders.
Asmodios wrote: I'm telling you if you if a couple of guys in this thread pooled their money each painted 25 guardsmen and sent one of you to the LVO you would be guaranteed the big cash prize. None of these "top 40k" players has yet to discover the overwhelming OP fire the guardsmen blob would bring
Ah, the old 'I don't have an answer to the concerns raised so let's make up ridiculous strawman arguments' technique. A classic.
I've given plenty of answers but apparently, guardsmen are the end all be all of the game so i say they should go clean up tournament after tournament winning all the prizes until gw fixes them. Clearly, you all know more than the top tournament players and I wanna see my fellow dakka members make out like bandits so have at it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trickstick wrote: If by "guaranteed the big cash prize" you mean "run out of time every game and lose", sure. The reason you don't see mass infantry is because it is extremely difficult to play a 2k infantry list within a reasonable amount of time.
plenty of top players have played over 250 model count hoards with time to spare listen to some of the long war podcasts when he talks about playing his cultist spam. If he can do it with cultists they can do it with guardsmen. Also all those spam conscript lists used just as many models
Yeah, this doesn't address why we were seeing cultist and termagant 200+ model spam and not guard. They both have the same exact limitations yet guard has never been effectively taken (except for when conscripts were broken)
Yes, it does, because we're not seeing 200 cultists or gants. 80 or 120 tops for cultists. It's also much simpler to manipulate 3 units than 20 units plus commanders.
There's been plenty of spam cultist and gants lists do incredibly well this edition. even popular 40k talking heads like TLWs kenny was made because his 200 cultist list wouldn't be as effective. Yet (other then conscripts at the beginning of 8th) nobody has taken guardsmen to the same effect
Dude. Diminishing returns. You can't easily get 200 models with 24" gun in range of everything you want dead right now, but you can if it's 80 or 100 while still profiting from the dynamic and having strong back field support.
There have been not 200 model lists on top table since 2017.
LVO - the #2 list had Straken, 100 Catachans, 9 mortars, and enough other units to fill out a battalion.
wait hold on..... are you saying that math hammer has some kind of limitation like spacing, terrain, position issues, ect and that it cant be the only metric used to evaluate a units effectiness on the board?
You've given no answers that make any sense and please stop strawmanning.
No one believes Guard to be the best unit bar none. They are the best troop though and this can be evidenced.
Your desperation to defend their current points cost is a classic case of 'I don't want my toys to be made worse-itus'. Unfortunately its good for the game and needs to happen. Other units that are performing far too well will also need to be adjusted.[/quote
Actually, his posts make quite a bit of sense. Which is why I'm guessing you're accusing him of strawmanning. None of us are defending the current points. We're also not saying guard aren't a powerful choice. Only that it's not the doom and gloom you're making it sound like.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/12/28 00:44:13
Why, in a post where you say "it's not cheaper, by 35 points" presumably referring to the 180 point Guard Battalion and the 215 point sisters battalion, do you give the guard squads a plasma gun and a mortar each and the sisters squads two meltas and a plasma?
None of those things are in the minimum detachments. You're also looking here at 332 points of sisters versus 222 points of guardsmen...and the guardsmen still do more damage, lol.
You have to resort to "versus marines, in a detachment entirely unlike the detachments we're actually talking about, within 12", and with 100 more points, guardsmen only do very slightly more damage" to try and muddy the waters at this point.
Please, keep going, I'm having a wonderful time. Next analyze 600 points of fire warriors vs 180 points of guardsmen at 25" range to prove why fire warriors are better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The minimum sisters of battle detachment is 35 points more, which is 210 points of sisters with BOLTGUNS, not special weapons.
They do less than half as much damage against all targets, at all ranges. They move half as much. They die at a faster rate to all weapons, from lasguns on up. They have half the footprint on the table.
They have one, and exactly one, redeeming feature, which you mentioned: DTW attempts. Imperial Guard can add DTW attempts at 25pts per, if they want them.
Those weapons aren't in the minimum detachment. But that's not what people here have generally asked when talking about those. Sorry I didn't post a phonebook of all the various ways you can point out each detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Also...wait...the math is just wrong here. He's got the mortar and laspistol numbers from 3 squads of guardsmen, the lasgun numbers are for 4.5 squads of guardsmen, and the plasma gun numbers are for 4 squads of guardsmen.
I think this is all just made up. The sisters are also doing 25% more damage with their plasma than they should be, 25% more with their melta, half as much with their bolters...
Yeah this is all just a fantasy.
Nope, three plasma guns for the guard, and the lasguns are FRF'ing. Keep in mind that the mortar teams have a lasgun each.
I've been following the last couple of pages of discussion waiting for someone to explain how taking the absolute minimum needed to meet CP requirements, implying that there is no reason to take them besides farming CPs, constitutes using them 'en masse'. At best it sounds like they're the most useful CP-farming choice, which is first and foremost a matter of cheapness rather than anything they do on the table.
So why it is always the Guard and not other factions that can also generate CP cheaply such as SoB or Ad Mech?
Flexibility.
You need them to do more damage? FRFSRF.
You need them to run and gun? FftE.
You need them to fallback and shoot? GBitF.
You need them to be on an objective faster than a bike could be? MMM.
You need them to fight twice? FB.
You want a unit of Catachans to move, shoot with FRFSRF, charge, and then fight twice? You can do that.
You want to put more orders on? Consolidate squads.
You need them to have a 4+ save? Easy.
You want to toss 10 frag grenades with reroll 1s to wound? Sure.
And that doesn't really scratch all that you can do as most people ignore anything outside Cadian and Catachan.
Want to point out that guard aren't fighting twice in the same turn as all the rest, at least not with orders.
Asmodios wrote: I'm telling you if you if a couple of guys in this thread pooled their money each painted 25 guardsmen and sent one of you to the LVO you would be guaranteed the big cash prize. None of these "top 40k" players has yet to discover the overwhelming OP fire the guardsmen blob would bring
Ah, the old 'I don't have an answer to the concerns raised so let's make up ridiculous strawman arguments' technique. A classic.
I've given plenty of answers but apparently, guardsmen are the end all be all of the game so i say they should go clean up tournament after tournament winning all the prizes until gw fixes them. Clearly, you all know more than the top tournament players and I wanna see my fellow dakka members make out like bandits so have at it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trickstick wrote: If by "guaranteed the big cash prize" you mean "run out of time every game and lose", sure. The reason you don't see mass infantry is because it is extremely difficult to play a 2k infantry list within a reasonable amount of time.
plenty of top players have played over 250 model count hoards with time to spare listen to some of the long war podcasts when he talks about playing his cultist spam. If he can do it with cultists they can do it with guardsmen. Also all those spam conscript lists used just as many models
Yeah, this doesn't address why we were seeing cultist and termagant 200+ model spam and not guard. They both have the same exact limitations yet guard has never been effectively taken (except for when conscripts were broken)
Yes, it does, because we're not seeing 200 cultists or gants. 80 or 120 tops for cultists. It's also much simpler to manipulate 3 units than 20 units plus commanders.
There's been plenty of spam cultist and gants lists do incredibly well this edition. even popular 40k talking heads like TLWs kenny was made because his 200 cultist list wouldn't be as effective. Yet (other then conscripts at the beginning of 8th) nobody has taken guardsmen to the same effect
Dude. Diminishing returns. You can't easily get 200 models with 24" gun in range of everything you want dead right now, but you can if it's 80 or 100 while still profiting from the dynamic and having strong back field support.
There have been not 200 model lists on top table since 2017.
LVO - the #2 list had Straken, 100 Catachans, 9 mortars, and enough other units to fill out a battalion.
wait hold on..... are you saying that math hammer has some kind of limitation like spacing, terrain, position issues, ect and that it cant be the only metric used to evaluate a units effectiness on the board?
You've given no answers that make any sense and please stop strawmanning.
No one believes Guard to be the best unit bar none. They are the best troop though and this can be evidenced.
Your desperation to defend their current points cost is a classic case of 'I don't want my toys to be made worse-itus'. Unfortunately its good for the game and needs to happen. Other units that are performing far too well will also need to be adjusted.
Actually, his posts make quite a bit of sense. Which is why I'm guessing you're accusing him of strawmanning. None of us are defending the current points. We're also not saying guard aren't a powerful choice. Only that it's not the doom and gloom you're making it sound like.
So your willing to admit that they should have be made a minimum of 5ppm in CA 2018 then?
Why, in a post where you say "it's not cheaper, by 35 points" presumably referring to the 180 point Guard Battalion and the 215 point sisters battalion, do you give the guard squads a plasma gun and a mortar each and the sisters squads two meltas and a plasma?
None of those things are in the minimum detachments. You're also looking here at 332 points of sisters versus 222 points of guardsmen...and the guardsmen still do more damage, lol.
You have to resort to "versus marines, in a detachment entirely unlike the detachments we're actually talking about, within 12", and with 100 more points, guardsmen only do very slightly more damage" to try and muddy the waters at this point.
Please, keep going, I'm having a wonderful time. Next analyze 600 points of fire warriors vs 180 points of guardsmen at 25" range to prove why fire warriors are better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The minimum sisters of battle detachment is 35 points more, which is 210 points of sisters with BOLTGUNS, not special weapons.
They do less than half as much damage against all targets, at all ranges. They move half as much. They die at a faster rate to all weapons, from lasguns on up. They have half the footprint on the table.
They have one, and exactly one, redeeming feature, which you mentioned: DTW attempts. Imperial Guard can add DTW attempts at 25pts per, if they want them.
Those weapons aren't in the minimum detachment. But that's not what people here have generally asked when talking about those. Sorry I didn't post a phonebook of all the various ways you can point out each detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Also...wait...the math is just wrong here. He's got the mortar and laspistol numbers from 3 squads of guardsmen, the lasgun numbers are for 4.5 squads of guardsmen, and the plasma gun numbers are for 4 squads of guardsmen.
I think this is all just made up. The sisters are also doing 25% more damage with their plasma than they should be, 25% more with their melta, half as much with their bolters...
Yeah this is all just a fantasy.
Nope, three plasma guns for the guard, and the lasguns are FRF'ing. Keep in mind that the mortar teams have a lasgun each.
I've been following the last couple of pages of discussion waiting for someone to explain how taking the absolute minimum needed to meet CP requirements, implying that there is no reason to take them besides farming CPs, constitutes using them 'en masse'. At best it sounds like they're the most useful CP-farming choice, which is first and foremost a matter of cheapness rather than anything they do on the table.
So why it is always the Guard and not other factions that can also generate CP cheaply such as SoB or Ad Mech?
Flexibility.
You need them to do more damage? FRFSRF.
You need them to run and gun? FftE.
You need them to fallback and shoot? GBitF.
You need them to be on an objective faster than a bike could be? MMM.
You need them to fight twice? FB.
You want a unit of Catachans to move, shoot with FRFSRF, charge, and then fight twice? You can do that.
You want to put more orders on? Consolidate squads.
You need them to have a 4+ save? Easy.
You want to toss 10 frag grenades with reroll 1s to wound? Sure.
And that doesn't really scratch all that you can do as most people ignore anything outside Cadian and Catachan.
Want to point out that guard aren't fighting twice in the same turn as all the rest, at least not with orders.
Asmodios wrote: I'm telling you if you if a couple of guys in this thread pooled their money each painted 25 guardsmen and sent one of you to the LVO you would be guaranteed the big cash prize. None of these "top 40k" players has yet to discover the overwhelming OP fire the guardsmen blob would bring
Ah, the old 'I don't have an answer to the concerns raised so let's make up ridiculous strawman arguments' technique. A classic.
I've given plenty of answers but apparently, guardsmen are the end all be all of the game so i say they should go clean up tournament after tournament winning all the prizes until gw fixes them. Clearly, you all know more than the top tournament players and I wanna see my fellow dakka members make out like bandits so have at it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trickstick wrote: If by "guaranteed the big cash prize" you mean "run out of time every game and lose", sure. The reason you don't see mass infantry is because it is extremely difficult to play a 2k infantry list within a reasonable amount of time.
plenty of top players have played over 250 model count hoards with time to spare listen to some of the long war podcasts when he talks about playing his cultist spam. If he can do it with cultists they can do it with guardsmen. Also all those spam conscript lists used just as many models
Yeah, this doesn't address why we were seeing cultist and termagant 200+ model spam and not guard. They both have the same exact limitations yet guard has never been effectively taken (except for when conscripts were broken)
Yes, it does, because we're not seeing 200 cultists or gants. 80 or 120 tops for cultists. It's also much simpler to manipulate 3 units than 20 units plus commanders.
There's been plenty of spam cultist and gants lists do incredibly well this edition. even popular 40k talking heads like TLWs kenny was made because his 200 cultist list wouldn't be as effective. Yet (other then conscripts at the beginning of 8th) nobody has taken guardsmen to the same effect
Dude. Diminishing returns. You can't easily get 200 models with 24" gun in range of everything you want dead right now, but you can if it's 80 or 100 while still profiting from the dynamic and having strong back field support.
There have been not 200 model lists on top table since 2017.
LVO - the #2 list had Straken, 100 Catachans, 9 mortars, and enough other units to fill out a battalion.
wait hold on..... are you saying that math hammer has some kind of limitation like spacing, terrain, position issues, ect and that it cant be the only metric used to evaluate a units effectiness on the board?
You've given no answers that make any sense and please stop strawmanning.
No one believes Guard to be the best unit bar none. They are the best troop though and this can be evidenced.
Your desperation to defend their current points cost is a classic case of 'I don't want my toys to be made worse-itus'. Unfortunately its good for the game and needs to happen. Other units that are performing far too well will also need to be adjusted.
Actually, his posts make quite a bit of sense. Which is why I'm guessing you're accusing him of strawmanning. None of us are defending the current points. We're also not saying guard aren't a powerful choice. Only that it's not the doom and gloom you're making it sound like.
So your willing to admit that they should have be made a minimum of 5ppm in CA 2018 then?
I don’t quite think that is what he is saying in this post. I think you are being overly-uppity (not regular uppity, as people could reasonably be, but overly-uppity).
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
Why, in a post where you say "it's not cheaper, by 35 points" presumably referring to the 180 point Guard Battalion and the 215 point sisters battalion, do you give the guard squads a plasma gun and a mortar each and the sisters squads two meltas and a plasma?
None of those things are in the minimum detachments. You're also looking here at 332 points of sisters versus 222 points of guardsmen...and the guardsmen still do more damage, lol.
You have to resort to "versus marines, in a detachment entirely unlike the detachments we're actually talking about, within 12", and with 100 more points, guardsmen only do very slightly more damage" to try and muddy the waters at this point.
Please, keep going, I'm having a wonderful time. Next analyze 600 points of fire warriors vs 180 points of guardsmen at 25" range to prove why fire warriors are better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The minimum sisters of battle detachment is 35 points more, which is 210 points of sisters with BOLTGUNS, not special weapons.
They do less than half as much damage against all targets, at all ranges. They move half as much. They die at a faster rate to all weapons, from lasguns on up. They have half the footprint on the table.
They have one, and exactly one, redeeming feature, which you mentioned: DTW attempts. Imperial Guard can add DTW attempts at 25pts per, if they want them.
Those weapons aren't in the minimum detachment. But that's not what people here have generally asked when talking about those. Sorry I didn't post a phonebook of all the various ways you can point out each detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Also...wait...the math is just wrong here. He's got the mortar and laspistol numbers from 3 squads of guardsmen, the lasgun numbers are for 4.5 squads of guardsmen, and the plasma gun numbers are for 4 squads of guardsmen.
I think this is all just made up. The sisters are also doing 25% more damage with their plasma than they should be, 25% more with their melta, half as much with their bolters...
Yeah this is all just a fantasy.
Nope, three plasma guns for the guard, and the lasguns are FRF'ing. Keep in mind that the mortar teams have a lasgun each.
I've been following the last couple of pages of discussion waiting for someone to explain how taking the absolute minimum needed to meet CP requirements, implying that there is no reason to take them besides farming CPs, constitutes using them 'en masse'. At best it sounds like they're the most useful CP-farming choice, which is first and foremost a matter of cheapness rather than anything they do on the table.
So why it is always the Guard and not other factions that can also generate CP cheaply such as SoB or Ad Mech?
Flexibility.
You need them to do more damage? FRFSRF.
You need them to run and gun? FftE.
You need them to fallback and shoot? GBitF.
You need them to be on an objective faster than a bike could be? MMM.
You need them to fight twice? FB.
You want a unit of Catachans to move, shoot with FRFSRF, charge, and then fight twice? You can do that.
You want to put more orders on? Consolidate squads.
You need them to have a 4+ save? Easy.
You want to toss 10 frag grenades with reroll 1s to wound? Sure.
And that doesn't really scratch all that you can do as most people ignore anything outside Cadian and Catachan.
Want to point out that guard aren't fighting twice in the same turn as all the rest, at least not with orders.
Asmodios wrote: I'm telling you if you if a couple of guys in this thread pooled their money each painted 25 guardsmen and sent one of you to the LVO you would be guaranteed the big cash prize. None of these "top 40k" players has yet to discover the overwhelming OP fire the guardsmen blob would bring
Ah, the old 'I don't have an answer to the concerns raised so let's make up ridiculous strawman arguments' technique. A classic.
I've given plenty of answers but apparently, guardsmen are the end all be all of the game so i say they should go clean up tournament after tournament winning all the prizes until gw fixes them. Clearly, you all know more than the top tournament players and I wanna see my fellow dakka members make out like bandits so have at it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trickstick wrote: If by "guaranteed the big cash prize" you mean "run out of time every game and lose", sure. The reason you don't see mass infantry is because it is extremely difficult to play a 2k infantry list within a reasonable amount of time.
plenty of top players have played over 250 model count hoards with time to spare listen to some of the long war podcasts when he talks about playing his cultist spam. If he can do it with cultists they can do it with guardsmen. Also all those spam conscript lists used just as many models
Yeah, this doesn't address why we were seeing cultist and termagant 200+ model spam and not guard. They both have the same exact limitations yet guard has never been effectively taken (except for when conscripts were broken)
Yes, it does, because we're not seeing 200 cultists or gants. 80 or 120 tops for cultists. It's also much simpler to manipulate 3 units than 20 units plus commanders.
There's been plenty of spam cultist and gants lists do incredibly well this edition. even popular 40k talking heads like TLWs kenny was made because his 200 cultist list wouldn't be as effective. Yet (other then conscripts at the beginning of 8th) nobody has taken guardsmen to the same effect
Dude. Diminishing returns. You can't easily get 200 models with 24" gun in range of everything you want dead right now, but you can if it's 80 or 100 while still profiting from the dynamic and having strong back field support.
There have been not 200 model lists on top table since 2017.
LVO - the #2 list had Straken, 100 Catachans, 9 mortars, and enough other units to fill out a battalion.
wait hold on..... are you saying that math hammer has some kind of limitation like spacing, terrain, position issues, ect and that it cant be the only metric used to evaluate a units effectiness on the board?
You've given no answers that make any sense and please stop strawmanning.
No one believes Guard to be the best unit bar none. They are the best troop though and this can be evidenced.
Your desperation to defend their current points cost is a classic case of 'I don't want my toys to be made worse-itus'. Unfortunately its good for the game and needs to happen. Other units that are performing far too well will also need to be adjusted.
Actually, his posts make quite a bit of sense. Which is why I'm guessing you're accusing him of strawmanning. None of us are defending the current points. We're also not saying guard aren't a powerful choice. Only that it's not the doom and gloom you're making it sound like.
So your willing to admit that they should have be made a minimum of 5ppm in CA 2018 then?
I don’t quite think that is what he is saying in this post. I think you are being overly-uppity (not regular uppity, as people could reasonably be, but overly-uppity).
It's really simple, your either defending them staying at 4ppm or they are 5ppm there isn't any middle ground.
It's a simple question that doesn't need pages of misdirection and obfuscation to answer it's a simple question.
Why, in a post where you say "it's not cheaper, by 35 points" presumably referring to the 180 point Guard Battalion and the 215 point sisters battalion, do you give the guard squads a plasma gun and a mortar each and the sisters squads two meltas and a plasma?
None of those things are in the minimum detachments. You're also looking here at 332 points of sisters versus 222 points of guardsmen...and the guardsmen still do more damage, lol.
You have to resort to "versus marines, in a detachment entirely unlike the detachments we're actually talking about, within 12", and with 100 more points, guardsmen only do very slightly more damage" to try and muddy the waters at this point.
Please, keep going, I'm having a wonderful time. Next analyze 600 points of fire warriors vs 180 points of guardsmen at 25" range to prove why fire warriors are better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The minimum sisters of battle detachment is 35 points more, which is 210 points of sisters with BOLTGUNS, not special weapons.
They do less than half as much damage against all targets, at all ranges. They move half as much. They die at a faster rate to all weapons, from lasguns on up. They have half the footprint on the table.
They have one, and exactly one, redeeming feature, which you mentioned: DTW attempts. Imperial Guard can add DTW attempts at 25pts per, if they want them.
Those weapons aren't in the minimum detachment. But that's not what people here have generally asked when talking about those. Sorry I didn't post a phonebook of all the various ways you can point out each detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Also...wait...the math is just wrong here. He's got the mortar and laspistol numbers from 3 squads of guardsmen, the lasgun numbers are for 4.5 squads of guardsmen, and the plasma gun numbers are for 4 squads of guardsmen.
I think this is all just made up. The sisters are also doing 25% more damage with their plasma than they should be, 25% more with their melta, half as much with their bolters...
Yeah this is all just a fantasy.
Nope, three plasma guns for the guard, and the lasguns are FRF'ing. Keep in mind that the mortar teams have a lasgun each.
I've been following the last couple of pages of discussion waiting for someone to explain how taking the absolute minimum needed to meet CP requirements, implying that there is no reason to take them besides farming CPs, constitutes using them 'en masse'. At best it sounds like they're the most useful CP-farming choice, which is first and foremost a matter of cheapness rather than anything they do on the table.
So why it is always the Guard and not other factions that can also generate CP cheaply such as SoB or Ad Mech?
Flexibility.
You need them to do more damage? FRFSRF.
You need them to run and gun? FftE.
You need them to fallback and shoot? GBitF.
You need them to be on an objective faster than a bike could be? MMM.
You need them to fight twice? FB.
You want a unit of Catachans to move, shoot with FRFSRF, charge, and then fight twice? You can do that.
You want to put more orders on? Consolidate squads.
You need them to have a 4+ save? Easy.
You want to toss 10 frag grenades with reroll 1s to wound? Sure.
And that doesn't really scratch all that you can do as most people ignore anything outside Cadian and Catachan.
Want to point out that guard aren't fighting twice in the same turn as all the rest, at least not with orders.
Asmodios wrote: I'm telling you if you if a couple of guys in this thread pooled their money each painted 25 guardsmen and sent one of you to the LVO you would be guaranteed the big cash prize. None of these "top 40k" players has yet to discover the overwhelming OP fire the guardsmen blob would bring
Ah, the old 'I don't have an answer to the concerns raised so let's make up ridiculous strawman arguments' technique. A classic.
I've given plenty of answers but apparently, guardsmen are the end all be all of the game so i say they should go clean up tournament after tournament winning all the prizes until gw fixes them. Clearly, you all know more than the top tournament players and I wanna see my fellow dakka members make out like bandits so have at it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trickstick wrote: If by "guaranteed the big cash prize" you mean "run out of time every game and lose", sure. The reason you don't see mass infantry is because it is extremely difficult to play a 2k infantry list within a reasonable amount of time.
plenty of top players have played over 250 model count hoards with time to spare listen to some of the long war podcasts when he talks about playing his cultist spam. If he can do it with cultists they can do it with guardsmen. Also all those spam conscript lists used just as many models
Yeah, this doesn't address why we were seeing cultist and termagant 200+ model spam and not guard. They both have the same exact limitations yet guard has never been effectively taken (except for when conscripts were broken)
Yes, it does, because we're not seeing 200 cultists or gants. 80 or 120 tops for cultists. It's also much simpler to manipulate 3 units than 20 units plus commanders.
There's been plenty of spam cultist and gants lists do incredibly well this edition. even popular 40k talking heads like TLWs kenny was made because his 200 cultist list wouldn't be as effective. Yet (other then conscripts at the beginning of 8th) nobody has taken guardsmen to the same effect
Dude. Diminishing returns. You can't easily get 200 models with 24" gun in range of everything you want dead right now, but you can if it's 80 or 100 while still profiting from the dynamic and having strong back field support.
There have been not 200 model lists on top table since 2017.
LVO - the #2 list had Straken, 100 Catachans, 9 mortars, and enough other units to fill out a battalion.
wait hold on..... are you saying that math hammer has some kind of limitation like spacing, terrain, position issues, ect and that it cant be the only metric used to evaluate a units effectiness on the board?
You've given no answers that make any sense and please stop strawmanning.
No one believes Guard to be the best unit bar none. They are the best troop though and this can be evidenced.
Your desperation to defend their current points cost is a classic case of 'I don't want my toys to be made worse-itus'. Unfortunately its good for the game and needs to happen. Other units that are performing far too well will also need to be adjusted.
Actually, his posts make quite a bit of sense. Which is why I'm guessing you're accusing him of strawmanning. None of us are defending the current points. We're also not saying guard aren't a powerful choice. Only that it's not the doom and gloom you're making it sound like.
So your willing to admit that they should have be made a minimum of 5ppm in CA 2018 then?
I don’t quite think that is what he is saying in this post. I think you are being overly-uppity (not regular uppity, as people could reasonably be, but overly-uppity).
It's really simple, your either defending them staying at 4ppm or they are 5ppm there isn't any middle ground.
It's a simple question that doesn't need pages of misdirection and obfuscation to answer it's a simple question.
Agreed.
If he doesn't believe their current points cost is correct (which is what 'none of us are defending their current points' sounds like) he shouldn't have a problem answering this simple question.
I don't see how its uppity either? Its the first thing I thought to ask when I eventually read his response.
I have seen people defend their current points too.
Mmmpi, the best you could do to attempt to manufacture a scenario where another troop unit was better at something than Guardsmen was to set up a scenario where ~200 points of guardsmen do equivalent damage to ~300 points of sisters of battle.
It's not like there aren't other viable units that exist in the game - Imperium is only one of four soupable "mega-factions" and one of five (possibly six) viable factions depending how orks shake out.
On top of all that, guardsmen do fall off against T6 or greater targets where their lasguns start to wound on 6s, which is why you tend to see every imperium soup list be "Guard+Heavy Killing Stuff".
But it's lunacy to insist that the crazy killing power of FRFSRF lasguns has not heavily directed the competitive meta of 8th edition. As soon as Conscripts became inefficient, Infantry immediately took over. The only time when they weren't the anti-infantry staple of every competitive imperial list was during the brief window of assault cannon/hurricane bolter stormraven spam and the time when Marines were pretty much the only codex in town and people were running asscans with guilliman.
Orks, Tau, Eldar Soup, Tyranid Soup, and Chaos Soup also exist in the competitive scene. They've got options that are on par with guardsmen, and which also need nerfs because they're shoving alternatives out of the competitive scene. But it's silly to pretend Guardsmen aren't a consistent problem, and dishonest to try and invent scenarios that make them look worse than they are.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Wait are people still thinking gaunts are equal to guardsmen? Big gaunt bubbles are cool and all as a nid player but tyranids have nowhere near the same buff levels Imperial guard or even Imperial Soup has. Also a double edged sword as huge blobs are just as easy to debuff.
Also synapse is cool and all but its not always easy to keep those synapse lynch pin units/characters alive and gaunts are so penalized by instinctive behaviour when out of synapse.
Lastly Im not sure on exact maths but dont equal points of guardsmen EASILY destroy gaunts at range (standard fleshborer is just an assault bolt pistol) and god help us jf we factor in orders and doctrines...
4 points for gaunts to me is fair. 4 points for guard is a bit toi cheap. We've seen units which clearly are preffered to a point to overshadows other choices get nerfed, guardsmen are in the same boat.
Why, in a post where you say "it's not cheaper, by 35 points" presumably referring to the 180 point Guard Battalion and the 215 point sisters battalion, do you give the guard squads a plasma gun and a mortar each and the sisters squads two meltas and a plasma?
None of those things are in the minimum detachments. You're also looking here at 332 points of sisters versus 222 points of guardsmen...and the guardsmen still do more damage, lol.
You have to resort to "versus marines, in a detachment entirely unlike the detachments we're actually talking about, within 12", and with 100 more points, guardsmen only do very slightly more damage" to try and muddy the waters at this point.
Please, keep going, I'm having a wonderful time. Next analyze 600 points of fire warriors vs 180 points of guardsmen at 25" range to prove why fire warriors are better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The minimum sisters of battle detachment is 35 points more, which is 210 points of sisters with BOLTGUNS, not special weapons.
They do less than half as much damage against all targets, at all ranges. They move half as much. They die at a faster rate to all weapons, from lasguns on up. They have half the footprint on the table.
They have one, and exactly one, redeeming feature, which you mentioned: DTW attempts. Imperial Guard can add DTW attempts at 25pts per, if they want them.
Those weapons aren't in the minimum detachment. But that's not what people here have generally asked when talking about those. Sorry I didn't post a phonebook of all the various ways you can point out each detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Also...wait...the math is just wrong here. He's got the mortar and laspistol numbers from 3 squads of guardsmen, the lasgun numbers are for 4.5 squads of guardsmen, and the plasma gun numbers are for 4 squads of guardsmen.
I think this is all just made up. The sisters are also doing 25% more damage with their plasma than they should be, 25% more with their melta, half as much with their bolters...
Yeah this is all just a fantasy.
Nope, three plasma guns for the guard, and the lasguns are FRF'ing. Keep in mind that the mortar teams have a lasgun each.
I've been following the last couple of pages of discussion waiting for someone to explain how taking the absolute minimum needed to meet CP requirements, implying that there is no reason to take them besides farming CPs, constitutes using them 'en masse'. At best it sounds like they're the most useful CP-farming choice, which is first and foremost a matter of cheapness rather than anything they do on the table.
So why it is always the Guard and not other factions that can also generate CP cheaply such as SoB or Ad Mech?
Flexibility.
You need them to do more damage? FRFSRF.
You need them to run and gun? FftE.
You need them to fallback and shoot? GBitF.
You need them to be on an objective faster than a bike could be? MMM.
You need them to fight twice? FB.
You want a unit of Catachans to move, shoot with FRFSRF, charge, and then fight twice? You can do that.
You want to put more orders on? Consolidate squads.
You need them to have a 4+ save? Easy.
You want to toss 10 frag grenades with reroll 1s to wound? Sure.
And that doesn't really scratch all that you can do as most people ignore anything outside Cadian and Catachan.
Want to point out that guard aren't fighting twice in the same turn as all the rest, at least not with orders.
Asmodios wrote: I'm telling you if you if a couple of guys in this thread pooled their money each painted 25 guardsmen and sent one of you to the LVO you would be guaranteed the big cash prize. None of these "top 40k" players has yet to discover the overwhelming OP fire the guardsmen blob would bring
Ah, the old 'I don't have an answer to the concerns raised so let's make up ridiculous strawman arguments' technique. A classic.
I've given plenty of answers but apparently, guardsmen are the end all be all of the game so i say they should go clean up tournament after tournament winning all the prizes until gw fixes them. Clearly, you all know more than the top tournament players and I wanna see my fellow dakka members make out like bandits so have at it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trickstick wrote: If by "guaranteed the big cash prize" you mean "run out of time every game and lose", sure. The reason you don't see mass infantry is because it is extremely difficult to play a 2k infantry list within a reasonable amount of time.
plenty of top players have played over 250 model count hoards with time to spare listen to some of the long war podcasts when he talks about playing his cultist spam. If he can do it with cultists they can do it with guardsmen. Also all those spam conscript lists used just as many models
Yeah, this doesn't address why we were seeing cultist and termagant 200+ model spam and not guard. They both have the same exact limitations yet guard has never been effectively taken (except for when conscripts were broken)
Yes, it does, because we're not seeing 200 cultists or gants. 80 or 120 tops for cultists. It's also much simpler to manipulate 3 units than 20 units plus commanders.
There's been plenty of spam cultist and gants lists do incredibly well this edition. even popular 40k talking heads like TLWs kenny was made because his 200 cultist list wouldn't be as effective. Yet (other then conscripts at the beginning of 8th) nobody has taken guardsmen to the same effect
Dude. Diminishing returns. You can't easily get 200 models with 24" gun in range of everything you want dead right now, but you can if it's 80 or 100 while still profiting from the dynamic and having strong back field support.
There have been not 200 model lists on top table since 2017.
LVO - the #2 list had Straken, 100 Catachans, 9 mortars, and enough other units to fill out a battalion.
wait hold on..... are you saying that math hammer has some kind of limitation like spacing, terrain, position issues, ect and that it cant be the only metric used to evaluate a units effectiness on the board?
You've given no answers that make any sense and please stop strawmanning.
No one believes Guard to be the best unit bar none. They are the best troop though and this can be evidenced.
Your desperation to defend their current points cost is a classic case of 'I don't want my toys to be made worse-itus'. Unfortunately its good for the game and needs to happen. Other units that are performing far too well will also need to be adjusted.
Actually, his posts make quite a bit of sense. Which is why I'm guessing you're accusing him of strawmanning. None of us are defending the current points. We're also not saying guard aren't a powerful choice. Only that it's not the doom and gloom you're making it sound like.
So your willing to admit that they should have be made a minimum of 5ppm in CA 2018 then?
I don’t quite think that is what he is saying in this post. I think you are being overly-uppity (not regular uppity, as people could reasonably be, but overly-uppity).
It's really simple, your either defending them staying at 4ppm or they are 5ppm there isn't any middle ground.
It's a simple question that doesn't need pages of misdirection and obfuscation to answer it's a simple question.
Agreed.
If he doesn't believe their current points cost is correct (which is what 'none of us are defending their current points' sounds like) he shouldn't have a problem answering this simple question.
I don't see how its uppity either? Its the first thing I thought to ask when I eventually read his response.
I have seen people defend their current points too.
Yeah, he isn’t defending their current points cost. That y’all read. Then y’all act uppity by skipping over how he believes y’all are being ridiculous for saying everything people say in that you disagree with is a strawman. All this is is argumentum abusi fallacia. Y’all dismiss the points of others that y’all don’t like by arguing it’s a logical fallacy. If it is such a bad point, y’all could prove it, rather than saying it is bad because “I said so.”
Its actually a really simple reason. Guard are as good as they are right now, because they can do everything decent. They are a jack of all trade armies, but masters of none. Because of that, no matter what you bring to the table, they can handle it.
Ice_can wrote: So just to be clear your 57pt infantry squad kills 34.58 poiny of marine's or 61% in a single round of shooting.
When under the effect of the best buff available to Guard, without factoring the cost of that buff into the equation, yes. So let's add half the cost of a CC to that 57pts, and it becomes effectively a 72pt infantry squad inflicting 34.58pts of damage, for an efficiency of 48% against Marines.
Meanwhile ten Skitarii Rangers with a pair of Arc Rifles, not exactly the be-all and end-all of infantry, cost 78pts. With no buffs, they kill an average of 38.6pts of Marines, for an efficiency of 49%.
Completely unbuffed Skitarii Rangers are more points efficient at killing MEQs than buffed Guardsmen, and longer-ranged, and better against high-T targets too. They're also tougher by a good margin, both through their better save and Shroudpsalm. But nobody's taking Skitarii Rangers in soup (yet- we'll see how the CA points changes shake things up) because if you want them to generate CP, you have to also take a pair of Tech-Priests that do little besides eat up points. It's not unrivaled combat ability for the points that's leading anyone to choose Guardsmen, it's a Battalion that's cheap, flexible, and doesn't waste points on non-combat-relevant HQ taxes. If CP generation goes away, so does the most compelling reason for Guard to show up in soup.
I've said before and I'll say again, I think the Infantry Squad should be 5ppm, but these assessments of Guardsmen are unreasonable. Of course an army that relies heavily on buffs is going to overperform when you assume the models are always buffed and don't take the cost of that buff into account.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/28 15:29:42
I have not been dismissing everything people have said in this thread by saying they are logical fallacies. If you look, you'll notice that the ONLY thing I am disputing as a strawman is the person reframing the argument to make it easier to attack. You know. Creating a strawman.
The actual argument being made is that Guardsmen are undercosted for what they do, and that orders make them far more powerful than they should be for the cost that they're at, and that this is evidenced by the fact that they appear in nearly every imperial tournament list.
Counter-arguments that they are solely used because they are the cheapest troop, that there are other troops better at their job and we just haven't seen them yet because CA2018 was just released, and that guardsmen just look good because space marines are bad, I have happily debated with math and unit comparisons over the last few pages.
The counter-argument of "oh, so if you think guardsmen are the strongest unit in the game why don't you just go win tournaments with 300 of them?" is a strawman. It isn't necessary to make arguments to prove that guardsmen are the strongest unit in the game, because I didn't make that argument, Asmodios assigned it to me. Guardsmen are not the strongest unit in the game if you're taking units that aren't supplying you additional CPs, which is why you see them taken in battalion and brigades. They're the best CP-providing troop choice.
Ice_can wrote: So just to be clear your 57pt infantry squad kills 34.58 poiny of marine's or 61% in a single round of shooting.
When under the effect of the best buff available to Guard, without factoring the cost of that buff into the equation, yes. So let's add half the cost of a CC to that 57pts, and it becomes effectively a 72pt infantry squad inflicting 34.58pts of damage, for an efficiency of 48% against Marines.
Meanwhile ten Skitarii Rangers with a pair of Arc Rifles, not exactly the be-all and end-all of infantry, cost 78pts. With no buffs, they kill an average of 38.6pts of Marines, for an efficiency of 49%.
Completely unbuffed Skitarii Rangers are more points efficient at killing MEQs than buffed Guardsmen, and longer-ranged, and better against high-T targets too. They're also tougher by a good margin, both through their better save and Shroudpsalm. But nobody's taking Skitarii Rangers in soup (yet- we'll see how the CA points changes shake things up) because if you want them to generate CP, you have to also take a pair of Tech-Priests that do little besides eat up points. It's not unrivaled combat ability for the points that's leading anyone to choose Guardsmen, it's a Battalion that's cheap, flexible, and doesn't waste points on non-combat-relevant HQ taxes. If CP generation goes away, so does the most compelling reason for Guard to show up in soup.
I've said before and I'll say again, I think the Infantry Squad should be 5ppm, but these assessments of Guardsmen are unreasonable. Of course an army that relies heavily on buffs is going to overperform when you assume the models are always buffed and don't take the cost of that buff into account.
The cost of the buffs is taken into account, at least in the math I've been doing.
3 infantry squads and 2 CCs versus any other min battalion in the game, the Guard battalion is third-cheapest (behind Tau and Admech) while also being the most durable versus anti-infantry firepower, the fastest movement if you need to go claim an objective thanks to move move move, the highest damage against anything T6 or less, and tied for the biggest table footprint.
That, combined with cheap and efficient elite, heavy and fast choices for an amazing min brigade, is why Guard is near-universal in imperium lists and why I say I suspect the sisters and admech will not be doing much to replace them after CA. In a world where CPs can be transferred to other detachments, Guard will never not be a problem. 5PPM guardsmen would go a long way to fixing it, but IMO until FRFSRF and Move Move Move are nerfed I think they'll still be an issue.
if CPs did not transfer and Move Move Move and FRFSRF were reverted to their previous edition incarnation, I think 4ppm guardsmen would be fine.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/28 15:38:44
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: The actual argument being made is that Guardsmen are undercosted for what they do, and that orders make them far more powerful than they should be for the cost that they're at, and that this is evidenced by the fact that they appear in nearly every imperial tournament list.
See, this is what I have a problem with. There are a whole host of reasons why a unit might regularly show up in tournament lists that don't directly translate into being too powerful in combat ability. They're a cheap unit that fills slots and can be taken with a similarly cheap HQ choice that directly synergizes with them, allowing you to take a battalion that isn't sacrificing points on useless units to meet battalion requirements. You need CPs, you need decent combat troops to hold objectives, and you need decent HQs to fill those slots, and Guard are the only faction that provides A, B, and C for low cost. It's not about just taking the cheapest battalion possible, it's about taking the cheapest battalion that can still pull its own weight.
You seem to acknowledge this when you say:
the_scotsman wrote: Guardsmen are not the strongest unit in the game if you're taking units that aren't supplying you additional CPs, which is why you see them taken in battalion and brigades. They're the best CP-providing troop choice.
So you recognize that they're not chosen because orders and their stats make them unrivaled killing units, but because they're decent on their own and generate CP. Once CP is taken out of the equation, they become a suboptimal choice. So if that aspect of them is addressed, preferably by just changing the CP system so that soup isn't the go-to mechanic, then Guardsmen stop being auto-includes for soup. Simply increasing their cost until they're no longer attractive for soup disproportionately hurts mono-Guard, without really addressing the underlying issue.
This is why I've been saying that I'd like to see a nerf to the soup mechanic, then assess how Guard need to be tweaked, because 'are Guardsmen too cheap for their combat ability?' and 'are Guard too attractive to soup as CP-generating units?' are really two completely different questions with different causes.
I understand your frustration with the perception that your argument is being straw-manned, but there are actually several people in this thread claiming that Guardsmen are completely overpowered combat units and that 100+ Guardsmen lists are an unbeatable horde that out-shoots anything they go up against. I think that's bogus, and it's a different issue from why Guard always show up in soup.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/28 15:54:37
The problem is Orders and CP generation, neither of which is anything specific to the Infantry unit?
Well, glad the infantry aren't the problem then.
Now we can move along and talk about orders and soup. Soup is a problem, and some of the orders are silly (though IIRC the earlier editions MMM was the same, and FRFSRF gave you one fewer shot than it does now. Are people really that worried about 9 lasgun shots?).
The problem is Orders and CP generation, neither of which is anything specific to the Infantry unit?
Well, glad the infantry aren't the problem then.
Now we can move along and talk about orders and soup. Soup is a problem, and some of the orders are silly (though IIRC the earlier editions MMM was the same, and FRFSRF gave you one fewer shot than it does now. Are people really that worried about 9 lasgun shots?).
Yeah, with Scions’ hot-shot weaponry being free and special weapons being cheaper, I’m just waiting for people to get riled up about FRFSRF with lasguns that have -2 AP. That is actually dangerous.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/28 15:56:24
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
the_scotsman wrote: I have not been dismissing everything people have said in this thread by saying they are logical fallacies. If you look, you'll notice that the ONLY thing I am disputing as a strawman is the person reframing the argument to make it easier to attack. You know. Creating a strawman.
The actual argument being made is that Guardsmen are undercosted for what they do, and that orders make them far more powerful than they should be for the cost that they're at, and that this is evidenced by the fact that they appear in nearly every imperial tournament list.
Counter-arguments that they are solely used because they are the cheapest troop, that there are other troops better at their job and we just haven't seen them yet because CA2018 was just released, and that guardsmen just look good because space marines are bad, I have happily debated with math and unit comparisons over the last few pages.
The counter-argument of "oh, so if you think guardsmen are the strongest unit in the game why don't you just go win tournaments with 300 of them?" is a strawman. It isn't necessary to make arguments to prove that guardsmen are the strongest unit in the game, because I didn't make that argument, Asmodios assigned it to me. Guardsmen are not the strongest unit in the game if you're taking units that aren't supplying you additional CPs, which is why you see them taken in battalion and brigades. They're the best CP-providing troop choice.
Ice_can wrote: So just to be clear your 57pt infantry squad kills 34.58 poiny of marine's or 61% in a single round of shooting.
When under the effect of the best buff available to Guard, without factoring the cost of that buff into the equation, yes. So let's add half the cost of a CC to that 57pts, and it becomes effectively a 72pt infantry squad inflicting 34.58pts of damage, for an efficiency of 48% against Marines.
Meanwhile ten Skitarii Rangers with a pair of Arc Rifles, not exactly the be-all and end-all of infantry, cost 78pts. With no buffs, they kill an average of 38.6pts of Marines, for an efficiency of 49%.
Completely unbuffed Skitarii Rangers are more points efficient at killing MEQs than buffed Guardsmen, and longer-ranged, and better against high-T targets too. They're also tougher by a good margin, both through their better save and Shroudpsalm. But nobody's taking Skitarii Rangers in soup (yet- we'll see how the CA points changes shake things up) because if you want them to generate CP, you have to also take a pair of Tech-Priests that do little besides eat up points. It's not unrivaled combat ability for the points that's leading anyone to choose Guardsmen, it's a Battalion that's cheap, flexible, and doesn't waste points on non-combat-relevant HQ taxes. If CP generation goes away, so does the most compelling reason for Guard to show up in soup.
I've said before and I'll say again, I think the Infantry Squad should be 5ppm, but these assessments of Guardsmen are unreasonable. Of course an army that relies heavily on buffs is going to overperform when you assume the models are always buffed and don't take the cost of that buff into account.
The cost of the buffs is taken into account, at least in the math I've been doing.
3 infantry squads and 2 CCs versus any other min battalion in the game, the Guard battalion is third-cheapest (behind Tau and Admech) while also being the most durable versus anti-infantry firepower, the fastest movement if you need to go claim an objective thanks to move move move, the highest damage against anything T6 or less, and tied for the biggest table footprint.
That, combined with cheap and efficient elite, heavy and fast choices for an amazing min brigade, is why Guard is near-universal in imperium lists and why I say I suspect the sisters and admech will not be doing much to replace them after CA. In a world where CPs can be transferred to other detachments, Guard will never not be a problem. 5PPM guardsmen would go a long way to fixing it, but IMO until FRFSRF and Move Move Move are nerfed I think they'll still be an issue.
if CPs did not transfer and Move Move Move and FRFSRF were reverted to their previous edition incarnation, I think 4ppm guardsmen would be fine.
So after all this your admitting that the main issue is there ability to generate CPs for other factions...... and that we need to fix it..... So my claim that we need to fix CP sharing then re-evaluate the cost of units isn't crazy?
the_scotsman wrote: I have not been dismissing everything people have said in this thread by saying they are logical fallacies. If you look, you'll notice that the ONLY thing I am disputing as a strawman is the person reframing the argument to make it easier to attack. You know. Creating a strawman.
The actual argument being made is that Guardsmen are undercosted for what they do, and that orders make them far more powerful than they should be for the cost that they're at, and that this is evidenced by the fact that they appear in nearly every imperial tournament list.
Counter-arguments that they are solely used because they are the cheapest troop, that there are other troops better at their job and we just haven't seen them yet because CA2018 was just released, and that guardsmen just look good because space marines are bad, I have happily debated with math and unit comparisons over the last few pages.
The counter-argument of "oh, so if you think guardsmen are the strongest unit in the game why don't you just go win tournaments with 300 of them?" is a strawman. It isn't necessary to make arguments to prove that guardsmen are the strongest unit in the game, because I didn't make that argument, Asmodios assigned it to me. Guardsmen are not the strongest unit in the game if you're taking units that aren't supplying you additional CPs, which is why you see them taken in battalion and brigades. They're the best CP-providing troop choice.
Ice_can wrote: So just to be clear your 57pt infantry squad kills 34.58 poiny of marine's or 61% in a single round of shooting.
When under the effect of the best buff available to Guard, without factoring the cost of that buff into the equation, yes. So let's add half the cost of a CC to that 57pts, and it becomes effectively a 72pt infantry squad inflicting 34.58pts of damage, for an efficiency of 48% against Marines.
Meanwhile ten Skitarii Rangers with a pair of Arc Rifles, not exactly the be-all and end-all of infantry, cost 78pts. With no buffs, they kill an average of 38.6pts of Marines, for an efficiency of 49%.
Completely unbuffed Skitarii Rangers are more points efficient at killing MEQs than buffed Guardsmen, and longer-ranged, and better against high-T targets too. They're also tougher by a good margin, both through their better save and Shroudpsalm. But nobody's taking Skitarii Rangers in soup (yet- we'll see how the CA points changes shake things up) because if you want them to generate CP, you have to also take a pair of Tech-Priests that do little besides eat up points. It's not unrivaled combat ability for the points that's leading anyone to choose Guardsmen, it's a Battalion that's cheap, flexible, and doesn't waste points on non-combat-relevant HQ taxes. If CP generation goes away, so does the most compelling reason for Guard to show up in soup.
I've said before and I'll say again, I think the Infantry Squad should be 5ppm, but these assessments of Guardsmen are unreasonable. Of course an army that relies heavily on buffs is going to overperform when you assume the models are always buffed and don't take the cost of that buff into account.
The cost of the buffs is taken into account, at least in the math I've been doing.
3 infantry squads and 2 CCs versus any other min battalion in the game, the Guard battalion is third-cheapest (behind Tau and Admech) while also being the most durable versus anti-infantry firepower, the fastest movement if you need to go claim an objective thanks to move move move, the highest damage against anything T6 or less, and tied for the biggest table footprint.
That, combined with cheap and efficient elite, heavy and fast choices for an amazing min brigade, is why Guard is near-universal in imperium lists and why I say I suspect the sisters and admech will not be doing much to replace them after CA. In a world where CPs can be transferred to other detachments, Guard will never not be a problem. 5PPM guardsmen would go a long way to fixing it, but IMO until FRFSRF and Move Move Move are nerfed I think they'll still be an issue.
if CPs did not transfer and Move Move Move and FRFSRF were reverted to their previous edition incarnation, I think 4ppm guardsmen would be fine.
So after all this your admitting that the main issue is there ability to generate CPs for other factions...... and that we need to fix it..... So my claim that we need to fix CP sharing then re-evaluate the cost of units isn't crazy?
Wow, let’s just change the points cost so guardsmen are too expensive. Command point farm be like *changes to Admech 17*
Huh, huh, at least that aren’t as good as guardsmen! And they are still only taken for the command points.
Guys, people are only taking Admech 17 for how cheaply they generate command points! Lol, let’s just increase their points cost.
There is a SOB thing as well, no?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/28 16:02:28
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
the_scotsman wrote: I have not been dismissing everything people have said in this thread by saying they are logical fallacies. If you look, you'll notice that the ONLY thing I am disputing as a strawman is the person reframing the argument to make it easier to attack. You know. Creating a strawman.
The actual argument being made is that Guardsmen are undercosted for what they do, and that orders make them far more powerful than they should be for the cost that they're at, and that this is evidenced by the fact that they appear in nearly every imperial tournament list.
Counter-arguments that they are solely used because they are the cheapest troop, that there are other troops better at their job and we just haven't seen them yet because CA2018 was just released, and that guardsmen just look good because space marines are bad, I have happily debated with math and unit comparisons over the last few pages.
The counter-argument of "oh, so if you think guardsmen are the strongest unit in the game why don't you just go win tournaments with 300 of them?" is a strawman. It isn't necessary to make arguments to prove that guardsmen are the strongest unit in the game, because I didn't make that argument, Asmodios assigned it to me. Guardsmen are not the strongest unit in the game if you're taking units that aren't supplying you additional CPs, which is why you see them taken in battalion and brigades. They're the best CP-providing troop choice.
Ice_can wrote: So just to be clear your 57pt infantry squad kills 34.58 poiny of marine's or 61% in a single round of shooting.
When under the effect of the best buff available to Guard, without factoring the cost of that buff into the equation, yes. So let's add half the cost of a CC to that 57pts, and it becomes effectively a 72pt infantry squad inflicting 34.58pts of damage, for an efficiency of 48% against Marines.
Meanwhile ten Skitarii Rangers with a pair of Arc Rifles, not exactly the be-all and end-all of infantry, cost 78pts. With no buffs, they kill an average of 38.6pts of Marines, for an efficiency of 49%.
Completely unbuffed Skitarii Rangers are more points efficient at killing MEQs than buffed Guardsmen, and longer-ranged, and better against high-T targets too. They're also tougher by a good margin, both through their better save and Shroudpsalm. But nobody's taking Skitarii Rangers in soup (yet- we'll see how the CA points changes shake things up) because if you want them to generate CP, you have to also take a pair of Tech-Priests that do little besides eat up points. It's not unrivaled combat ability for the points that's leading anyone to choose Guardsmen, it's a Battalion that's cheap, flexible, and doesn't waste points on non-combat-relevant HQ taxes. If CP generation goes away, so does the most compelling reason for Guard to show up in soup.
I've said before and I'll say again, I think the Infantry Squad should be 5ppm, but these assessments of Guardsmen are unreasonable. Of course an army that relies heavily on buffs is going to overperform when you assume the models are always buffed and don't take the cost of that buff into account.
The cost of the buffs is taken into account, at least in the math I've been doing.
3 infantry squads and 2 CCs versus any other min battalion in the game, the Guard battalion is third-cheapest (behind Tau and Admech) while also being the most durable versus anti-infantry firepower, the fastest movement if you need to go claim an objective thanks to move move move, the highest damage against anything T6 or less, and tied for the biggest table footprint.
That, combined with cheap and efficient elite, heavy and fast choices for an amazing min brigade, is why Guard is near-universal in imperium lists and why I say I suspect the sisters and admech will not be doing much to replace them after CA. In a world where CPs can be transferred to other detachments, Guard will never not be a problem. 5PPM guardsmen would go a long way to fixing it, but IMO until FRFSRF and Move Move Move are nerfed I think they'll still be an issue.
if CPs did not transfer and Move Move Move and FRFSRF were reverted to their previous edition incarnation, I think 4ppm guardsmen would be fine.
So after all this your admitting that the main issue is there ability to generate CPs for other factions...... and that we need to fix it..... So my claim that we need to fix CP sharing then re-evaluate the cost of units isn't crazy?
No, of course not. What's annoying is that in order I guess to disagree with the premise of the thread, you assigned a more extreme stance to my argument than I was actually claiming (that guard were somehow the most OP unit in the game rather than arguably the best provider of CPs).
Of course the reason Guard battalions and brigades are universal in imperial lists is the fact that they can hold their own while also providing extremely cheap CPs. of course wanting to remove the ability to share Cps between factions is reasonable before evaluating unit balance.
Realistically, the biggest effect of removing Cp-sharing would be an enormous drop in the number of imperial and chaos lists. Eldar Soup largely to get access to doom, rather than CPs, and the one instance where they soup to get CPs they use those Cps with the detachment (bh min battalion to get Vect).
The problem is Orders and CP generation, neither of which is anything specific to the Infantry unit?
Well, glad the infantry aren't the problem then.
Now we can move along and talk about orders and soup. Soup is a problem, and some of the orders are silly (though IIRC the earlier editions MMM was the same, and FRFSRF gave you one fewer shot than it does now. Are people really that worried about 9 lasgun shots?).
Yeah, with Scions’ hot-shot weaponry being free and special weapons being cheaper, I’m just waiting for people to get riled up about FRFSRF with lasguns that have -2 AP. That is actually dangerous.
18" range on a unit that almost always deploys over 9" (deep strike) means that for scions, FRFSRF actually works pretty much like it did last edition (one extra shot).
Amazingly, that wasn't OP then, and it doesn't seem to be OP now. scions tend to get used as special weapon-toters rather than lasgunners because you waste their deep strike capabilities if you want to use their lasguns effectively.
Though I have to say in casual games scions in taurox Primes are pretty fun.
The problem is Orders and CP generation, neither of which is anything specific to the Infantry unit?
Well, glad the infantry aren't the problem then.
Now we can move along and talk about orders and soup. Soup is a problem, and some of the orders are silly (though IIRC the earlier editions MMM was the same, and FRFSRF gave you one fewer shot than it does now. Are people really that worried about 9 lasgun shots?).
Nope, MMM has been pretty much quadrupled in effectiveness since last edition. it was "roll 3d6 when you run, take the highest result" adding an average of 2.5", it is now " run AGAIN" adding an average of 9.5" of movement.
I don't think you should be looking at basic lasguns for your close-range anti infantry damage needs. Something is a little weird IMO when giving your guard infantry a flamer actually reduces the damage they do to most light targets for the points (2.5 lasgunners with frfsrf is always better than 1 flamer guardsman).
If I were changing FRFSRF I'd either leave it the same but require the unit not to move (you know, like you would with formation-based rank fire) or just bring it back down to the +1 shot.
MMM is just goofy in its current incarnation. Put it back to its previous incarnation or maybe make it an auto-6 advance ( have your guardsmen motivated to the peak of human abiliites rather than suddenly making them faster than superfast eldar close combat specialists) and remove the "no shooting" stipulation so you can use it to position flamers/meltas/be cool Tallarn guys.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/28 16:11:27
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
So just to be clear your 57pt infantry squad kills 34.58 poiny of marine's or 61% in a single round of shooting.
Thats rediculous returns for a base infanty unit.
If there's an officer nearby giving orders and the target is within 12", then yes thats what the math shows. But then, it's not just a base 57pt infantry unit at that point either because it requires a nearby character that does nothing but buff the weeny infantry.
The big point however, magnificently illustrated here, was that similar units that are doing even more for even less, but everyone focuses on the Infantry Squad. In fact, the Infantry Squad drops down to inflicting only 2.08 wounds (27pts) without the officer, the plasma SWS still does 2.42 (31.46pts) and is only 45pts. Yet we hear nothing about this unit and nobody takes it
Why this focus on the Infantry Squad over everything else? Because it fills out detachments for CP's. It's not basic infantry like guardsmen that are doing the bulk of the killing in armies, often the "loyal 32" are all dead before they ever have a chance to fire a shot. The value that we see so widespread is from the CP battery and secondarily the board control offered by bodies, not their killing power.
What you haven't taken into consideration in that maths is how many casualties dies it take to half the units fire power?
Mainly because for most of the units compared, it'd be about the same, the only difference was directly with the Infantry Squad, and even there we're just talking about a couple dead guardsmen, none of these are stunningly resilient units.
Also, defining halved firepower can be rather hard
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Anyone that thinks stopping CP sharing will stop Infantry from being taken is delusional, pure and simple.
Well...no. They are one of what, three troop choices in a viable faction. You're probably going to see them. Why would you want to stop infantry from being taken?
A faction having good, flexible light infantry is fine, as long as they don't also have access to the most efficient CP-burners in the game. Guard on their own don't have that. Guard with knights do.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: I have not been dismissing everything people have said in this thread by saying they are logical fallacies. If you look, you'll notice that the ONLY thing I am disputing as a strawman is the person reframing the argument to make it easier to attack. You know. Creating a strawman.
The actual argument being made is that Guardsmen are undercosted for what they do, and that orders make them far more powerful than they should be for the cost that they're at, and that this is evidenced by the fact that they appear in nearly every imperial tournament list.
Counter-arguments that they are solely used because they are the cheapest troop, that there are other troops better at their job and we just haven't seen them yet because CA2018 was just released, and that guardsmen just look good because space marines are bad, I have happily debated with math and unit comparisons over the last few pages.
The counter-argument of "oh, so if you think guardsmen are the strongest unit in the game why don't you just go win tournaments with 300 of them?" is a strawman. It isn't necessary to make arguments to prove that guardsmen are the strongest unit in the game, because I didn't make that argument, Asmodios assigned it to me. Guardsmen are not the strongest unit in the game if you're taking units that aren't supplying you additional CPs, which is why you see them taken in battalion and brigades. They're the best CP-providing troop choice.
Ice_can wrote: So just to be clear your 57pt infantry squad kills 34.58 poiny of marine's or 61% in a single round of shooting.
When under the effect of the best buff available to Guard, without factoring the cost of that buff into the equation, yes. So let's add half the cost of a CC to that 57pts, and it becomes effectively a 72pt infantry squad inflicting 34.58pts of damage, for an efficiency of 48% against Marines.
Meanwhile ten Skitarii Rangers with a pair of Arc Rifles, not exactly the be-all and end-all of infantry, cost 78pts. With no buffs, they kill an average of 38.6pts of Marines, for an efficiency of 49%.
Completely unbuffed Skitarii Rangers are more points efficient at killing MEQs than buffed Guardsmen, and longer-ranged, and better against high-T targets too. They're also tougher by a good margin, both through their better save and Shroudpsalm. But nobody's taking Skitarii Rangers in soup (yet- we'll see how the CA points changes shake things up) because if you want them to generate CP, you have to also take a pair of Tech-Priests that do little besides eat up points. It's not unrivaled combat ability for the points that's leading anyone to choose Guardsmen, it's a Battalion that's cheap, flexible, and doesn't waste points on non-combat-relevant HQ taxes. If CP generation goes away, so does the most compelling reason for Guard to show up in soup.
I've said before and I'll say again, I think the Infantry Squad should be 5ppm, but these assessments of Guardsmen are unreasonable. Of course an army that relies heavily on buffs is going to overperform when you assume the models are always buffed and don't take the cost of that buff into account.
The cost of the buffs is taken into account, at least in the math I've been doing.
3 infantry squads and 2 CCs versus any other min battalion in the game, the Guard battalion is third-cheapest (behind Tau and Admech) while also being the most durable versus anti-infantry firepower, the fastest movement if you need to go claim an objective thanks to move move move, the highest damage against anything T6 or less, and tied for the biggest table footprint.
That, combined with cheap and efficient elite, heavy and fast choices for an amazing min brigade, is why Guard is near-universal in imperium lists and why I say I suspect the sisters and admech will not be doing much to replace them after CA. In a world where CPs can be transferred to other detachments, Guard will never not be a problem. 5PPM guardsmen would go a long way to fixing it, but IMO until FRFSRF and Move Move Move are nerfed I think they'll still be an issue.
if CPs did not transfer and Move Move Move and FRFSRF were reverted to their previous edition incarnation, I think 4ppm guardsmen would be fine.
So after all this your admitting that the main issue is there ability to generate CPs for other factions...... and that we need to fix it..... So my claim that we need to fix CP sharing then re-evaluate the cost of units isn't crazy?
Wow, let’s just change the points cost so guardsmen are too expensive. Command point farm be like *changes to Admech 17*
Huh, huh, at least that aren’t as good as guardsmen! And they are still only taken for the command points.
Guys, people are only taking Admech 17 for how cheaply they generate command points! Lol, let’s just increase their points cost.
There is a SOB thing as well, no?
There are people on these forums that have called for 7 ppm guardsmen. The point is that you just by raising the points costs on units only, then players will just take the next cheapest thing when it becomes more efficient.
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
So just to be clear your 57pt infantry squad kills 34.58 poiny of marine's or 61% in a single round of shooting.
Thats rediculous returns for a base infanty unit.
If there's an officer nearby giving orders and the target is within 12", then yes thats what the math shows. But then, it's not just a base 57pt infantry unit at that point either because it requires a nearby character that does nothing but buff the weeny infantry.
The big point however, magnificently illustrated here, was that similar units that are doing even more for even less, but everyone focuses on the Infantry Squad. In fact, the Infantry Squad drops down to inflicting only 2.08 wounds (27pts) without the officer, the plasma SWS still does 2.42 (31.46pts) and is only 45pts. Yet we hear nothing about this unit and nobody takes it
Why this focus on the Infantry Squad over everything else? Because it fills out detachments for CP's. It's not basic infantry like guardsmen that are doing the bulk of the killing in armies, often the "loyal 32" are all dead before they ever have a chance to fire a shot. The value that we see so widespread is from the CP battery and secondarily the board control offered by bodies, not their killing power.
What you haven't taken into consideration in that maths is how many casualties dies it take to half the units fire power?
Mainly because for most of the units compared, it'd be about the same, the only difference was directly with the Infantry Squad, and even there we're just talking about a couple dead guardsmen, none of these are stunningly resilient units.
Also, defining halved firepower can be rather hard
