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Manchu wrote: It doesn’t really matter that The Raid released ahead of Dredd, except it has led people to erroenously presume Dredd ripped off The Raid.
Whether or not Dredd ripped off The Raid, The Raid is easily the superior film.
Knowingly repeating false information on the net is a crime, citizen. 30 days in an iso-cube.
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
As others already said Dredd was too close to The Raid, which is clearly superior. Still an average B movie that worths a watch though.
The stallone old Dredd is also nothing more than a B movie but I certainly prefer it over the 2012 remake. I managed to watch it 3 times at least while I've never wanted to watch the 2012 Dredd a second time.
@Manchu & Elbows - it's OK for you to like the inferior Dredd film, and it's OK for you to like the inferior fight-out-of-a-building film. But pretending that it's better than Judge Dredd or The Raid suggests that you're the ones taking Slo-Mo...
I was just about to say that 2012 Dredd has no Armand Assante LAAAWWWWWWGHHHHH moment to grant it true greatness.
I will reiterate though that Stallone Dredd felt more like the comics I read in tone, as well as with the craziness of the setting. Urban Dredd is too serious, too grounded. And Urban himself is just too charming, even as Dredd. There's a reason comics Dredd always has SS runes reflecting over his eyes. Sure, Stallone Dredd himself isn't really the same character, but at least he wears glorious pauldrons instead of replacing them with textured shoulder pads like he's ashamed of his source material.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/03 15:52:44
I was just about to say that 2012 Dredd has no Armand Assante LAAAWWWWWWGHHHHH moment to grant it true greatness.
I will reiterate though that Stallone Dredd felt more like the comics I read in tone, as well as with the craziness of the setting. Urban Dredd is too serious, too grounded. And Urban himself is just too charming, even as Dredd. There's a reason comics Dredd always has SS runes reflecting over his eyes. Sure, Stallone Dredd himself isn't really the same character, but at least he wears glorious pauldrons instead of replacing them with textured shoulder pads like he's ashamed of his source material.
Judge Stallone is superficially more like the comics, in that it replicates the surface detail of aesthetic and the most obvious "text". 2012 Dredd grasps the substance of the comics, their subtext, both Dredd as a character and the casual horror of existence in Megacity One, and the reason it largely bails on the surface detail stuff is less that it's ashamed of the source material and more than it was made for ~40 sodding million dollars, whereas if the Stallone ego-vehicle had been made in 2012 it would have had a budget of over 150 million - they gave the Judges a style that would work with the aesthetic their shooting locations and CGI budget would allow.
So given the film made for less than 1/3 the cost and that wasn't able to faithfully represent the comics aesthetics is still more of a Dredd movie than the huge flashy expensive one, I'd say 2012 Dredd takes it by a country mile.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
And that's just it. Demolition Man was a big hit for him, not to mention a movie rated PG15, so when he came on board for Judge Dredd he had several demands, including that it would be rewritten into a PG15 rating (got a 16 instead) and that his good friend Rob also got a part.
If Sly was as big a fan as he claimed to be, he'd keep the flipping helmet on, not kiss Hershey and be the brutal fascist he is supposed to be, lady Justice be damned. Also, Fergee is supposed to be a big moron living in the sewers, not some whiny Schneider..
Manchu wrote: It doesn’t really matter that The Raid released ahead of Dredd, except it has led people to erroenously presume Dredd ripped off The Raid.
Whether or not Dredd ripped off The Raid, The Raid is easily the superior film.
Knowingly repeating false information on the net is a crime, citizen. 30 days in an iso-cube.
Judge Strg Alt: "Judge Techpriestsupport, his goldfish pet license has expired, too. That´s a Code 10 for illegal imprisonment. I add 30 days to your sentence, creep."
Judge Dredd has a lot of problems to it and for me the root of it had to do with the whole thing being a theme-park version of the comic it was adapting. This was the standard for comic book/superhero movies at the time and can also be seen in the decline of the batman movies and other stand-alone contemporaries like Steel and Spawn, and the aversion to that is why later successful superhero films (x-men, blade) pushed a hardcore 'grounded' aesthetic until spider-man brought the spandex back.
Because Judge Dredd was such a theme park movie though, they basically had no choice but to push the grim realism angle in order to define themselves visually against it and for the most part I like the result. It's very much a 'serious 2000s' reimagining of the premise with recognizable elements from the comics like the high tech guns, distinctive helmets, eagle motiffed shoulders, and integrates them down into something more economical and therefore more grounded feeling. Likewise the character of Mega City One is very different, largely highlighting the differences between what people thought future urban blight would look like in in the 80s vs today.
All that is a difference in tone though, as a film by itself Dredd is superior: it's closed-in premise belies its lower budget (thanks largely to its opening sequence) but its entire cast keeps its plot moving and its set pieces are way more satisfying than its predecessor.
Yeah, I like it a lot. And I wish they'd Make Dredd 2:
Yodhrin wrote: Judge Stallone is superficially more like the comics, in that it replicates the surface detail of aesthetic and the most obvious "text". 2012 Dredd grasps the substance of the comics, their subtext,
On the contrary. Dredd 2012 completely fails to recognize that Judge Dredd is fundamentally a parody at its core. The only "serious" element is Judge Dredd himself, and that's because he's obviously insane. The rest is entirely over-the-top nonsense. It's aesthetically more Monty Python than Warner Dark Knight Batman, aside from the notion that we're going to spend 2 hours watching a far too self-serious man wearing a ridiculously impractical costume romp about in some dystopian version of Disneyland. Failing to capture that tonal essence completely misses the mark, and is the precise reason that "serious" Dredd 2012 is an utter failure at almost every level. The fact that Dredd 2012 might as well be a cosplay version of The Raid only underscores the point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/03 20:19:57
Yodhrin wrote: Judge Stallone is superficially more like the comics, in that it replicates the surface detail of aesthetic and the most obvious "text". 2012 Dredd grasps the substance of the comics, their subtext,
On the contrary. Dredd 2012 completely fails to recognize that Judge Dredd is fundamentally a parody at its core. The only "serious" element is Judge Dredd himself, and that's because he's obviously insane. The rest is entirely over-the-top nonsense. It's aesthetically more Monty Python than Warner Dark Knight Batman, aside from the notion that we're going to spend 2 hours watching a far too self-serious man wearing a ridiculously impractical costume romp about in some dystopian version of Disneyland. Failing to capture that tonal essence completely misses the mark, and is the precise reason that "serious" Dredd 2012 is an utter failure at almost every level. The fact that Dredd 2012 might as well be a cosplay version of The Raid only underscores the point.
To try and fit Judge Dredd into just one box misses the point of Dredd even more thoroughly than missing the fact it is a parody. As Mad Doc says, it varies tone, but it goes beyond that to full-on vary the message.
The 2012 version misses your idea of Dredd, and you don't have to like it, but it hits on several ideas explored in Dredd over the last 20 or more years so people who do like it are not "wrong".
Having said that, the 90s version also does hit several of the ideas bang on too. I didn't hate it, but I prefer the 2012 version.
Though guards may sleep and ships may lay at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire.
Not at all. The Raid is not a Judge Dredd movie. You keep harping on The Raid but the fact that both movies used a similar structure for similar reasons (budget constraints) is the only relevant point. No one who likes Dredd because it’s a Judge Dredd movie is ever going to consider The Raid a preferable alternative because it’s not a Judge Dredd movie.
One of the secrets to Dredd’s longevity (and as a single, coherent timeline) is how it’s been able to vary its tone.
Sure, stuff like the utterly bonker Hottie House Siege is straight up silliness. And much of the oriiginal, early stuff was firmly tongue in cheek.
But when you start to get to stuff like Doomsday for Dredd, and the relatively recent Day Of Chaos? That stuff is played straight.
Perhaps the problem lies in which comics we have read. I've only read the early "Rogue Trader" Dredd and not the straighter "Dark Imperium" Dredd. So while I do enjoy Dredd 2012 as a movie, it feels less like the Judge Dredd I am familiar with.
Plus, LAAAWWWWWRRGHHHHH!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JohnHwangDD wrote: To judge the 1990s Dredd against 20 years material that was created *after* the movie is even more of a mistake.
And again, if you prefer the 2012 version, then The Raid does the whole thing much better.
What does "the whole thing" mean? Are there sci fi elements in The Raid? I always thought it was just another police and/or crime movie, and had no interest in seeing it until someone up thread said it's a martial arts movie. (Is that true?) If The Raid is just another mainstream movie, I find Dredd better by default.
Forbidden Planet may just be The Tempest in space, but that "in space" part makes all the difference to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/04 01:33:45
JohnHwangDD wrote: And again, if you prefer the 2012 version, then The Raid does the whole thing much better.
What does "the whole thing" mean? Are there sci fi elements in The Raid? I always thought it was just another police and/or crime movie, and had no interest in seeing it until someone up thread said it's a martial arts movie. (Is that true?) If The Raid is just another mainstream movie, I find Dredd better by default.
Forbidden Planet may just be The Tempest in space, but that "in space" part makes all the difference to me.
The whole "few guys against an army in a building" thing. No, it's not a sci-fi movie. It's an Asian police movie, so yes, there is some fighting. Indonesian fighting (Penjac Silat), so it looks different from what you've seen from Hong Kong / China / Japan. I wouldn't say it's mainstream in an American context, but it might be mainstream for Indonesia.
Yodhrin wrote: Judge Stallone is superficially more like the comics, in that it replicates the surface detail of aesthetic and the most obvious "text". 2012 Dredd grasps the substance of the comics, their subtext,
On the contrary. Dredd 2012 completely fails to recognize that Judge Dredd is fundamentally a parody at its core. The only "serious" element is Judge Dredd himself, and that's because he's obviously insane. The rest is entirely over-the-top nonsense. It's aesthetically more Monty Python than Warner Dark Knight Batman, aside from the notion that we're going to spend 2 hours watching a far too self-serious man wearing a ridiculously impractical costume romp about in some dystopian version of Disneyland. Failing to capture that tonal essence completely misses the mark, and is the precise reason that "serious" Dredd 2012 is an utter failure at almost every level. The fact that Dredd 2012 might as well be a cosplay version of The Raid only underscores the point.
Urban's Dredd is obviously insane in the movie. The way he "hotshots" the hostage taker was utterly insane. They guy could have pulled the trigger on the victim. A regular bullet to the mouth would have instantly severed his spine at the brainstem and made it impossible for him to shoot. The hotshot was insane and sadistic.
Anderson hinted at something deep in dredd but the chief judge cut her off.
Mama recognized the similarities between herself and dredd.
Dredd's disposal of mama was again sadistic and insane. Why give her the slomo? Sadism. Also use if an illegal drugs, something dredd wouldn't do. His sadism backfired on him tho he never knew it. I think mama kind of enjoyed her fall. Hey, she said it herself, dying violently was part of the life she was in.
Dredd also did not know for certain her trigger wouldn't work. He made an educated guess. But the way he let his breath out and said "Yeah" when the bombs didn't go off, he wasn't sure but was willing risk the block to kill mama.
Also saying that dredd wasn't like the comic is only slightly correct. Earlier dredd comics where schlocky and comedic, with silly overtimes. Later comics like "America" adopted a much more serious tone. A lot of later dredd stories went more mature, even using the s word in them. There we're hokey older comics with ridiculous tech and silly characters, there are also darker and more serious comics. The dredd movie was set in the latter era.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/04 02:18:32
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
Alpharius wrote: ...if nothing else, this thread has me watching The Raid for the first time - right now!
But is it really you watching it or, an imposter?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/04 09:19:31
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
JohnHwangDD wrote: To judge the 1990s Dredd against 20 years material that was created *after* the movie is even more of a mistake.
And again, if you prefer the 2012 version, then The Raid does the whole thing much better.
When did I judge the 1996 version against material made after it? I don't even dislike the 1996 version. I judge 1996 against 1996, and 2012 against 2012 and prefer 2012. And they are so different that it is a little bit like like saying Brooklyn 99 is better than The Wire. They just don't compare directly anyway. If I could only watch one ever again, I would choose The Wire, but it is not as if I hate Brooklyn 99.
Similarly, I like Star Trek:TNG AND I like Battlestar Galactica. One being better doesn't make the other one bad, no matter how similar they are. I've not seen The Raid, bit part of the reason I like Dredd is that it has Dredd in it. Does The Raid have Dredd in it?
You seem to have an irrational dislike of this movie and be unable to cope with other people having a different opinion...
Though guards may sleep and ships may lay at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire.
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