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 Overread wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's obvious that anything that's generic Tolkien Fantasy (Dorfs & Orks), anything straight historical (Empire), anything ripped from movies (Vampire Counts) is going away.

See I don't agree with the whole movies thing. See Daughters of Khaine got Melusai - if they are not ripped right out of Clash of the Titans and the depiction of medusa then its rather a shock. They've even got a bow and arrow version!

Personally I think Vampire Counts are something that could have a resurgence if/when GW pays attention to them.

I don't think "old fantasy" or "unique appearance" or any of those kinds of argument are holding water. We still have generic orks in AoS, GW just removed one half of them. We still have goblins with spiders (lord of the rings); we still have Aelves (Aelf apparently being an older world spelling of elf); we still have dwarves (who apparently are selling well according to rumours).

I think its more that GW are stripping out armies that are not selling; that repeat other forces or which have way too many old models to update within their current line up of production. I think What stays and what goes will vary a lot and its nearly impossible to predict for us on the outside. AoS is going to have at least one to two more years of these major changes that will be hard to predict until they happen. Then I think the setting should settle down some in terms of the volume of changes.

WRT movies, GW already got rid of the generic Skeletons and Mummy models. The pre-WoD VC should be on the block.

I had to look up what you were referring to, and the Melusai are merely snake-legged, forming a continuum from Witch Elf to the new Morathi and BloodWrack model, but definitely not a copy of the movie version.

The Von Carsteins *are* ripped directly from the old vampire movies, and lack anything that makes them "special". They should be axed like the old Mummy model.

Generic Orks will be replaced by something else, eventually. It's just a matter of time, as they roll out each new incarnation. Goblins on Spiders were not in LotR - the Spiders were their own thing; rather, pay attention to how LotR-like Goblins on Wolves got removed entirely, replaced by Squigs and Spiders that look nothing like any movie.

Elfs got the new Medusa things, and the new Deepkin and the new Dryads. The old LotR-flavored Elfs are obviously going away.

Dorfs got the Balloons and the new Slayers. The generic Dorfs are again, obviously going away.

Basically, anything that is generically playable under Kings of War or Ninth Age is getting Squatted, simple as that. GW is Squatting lower-sellers first, but the old stuff from the Old World is obviously done and will be gone soon. When Age of Sigmar is done going through the armies (and there are a *lot* of them), there won't be anything left from the Old World.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
WRT movies, GW already got rid of the generic Skeletons and Mummy models. The pre-WoD VC should be on the block.

I had to look up what you were referring to, and the Melusai are merely snake-legged, forming a continuum from Witch Elf to the new Morathi and BloodWrack model, but definitely not a copy of the movie version.

The Von Carsteins *are* ripped directly from the old vampire movies, and lack anything that makes them "special". They should be axed like the old Mummy model.

Generic Orks will be replaced by something else, eventually. It's just a matter of time, as they roll out each new incarnation. Goblins on Spiders were not in LotR - the Spiders were their own thing; rather, pay attention to how LotR-like Goblins on Wolves got removed entirely, replaced by Squigs and Spiders that look nothing like any movie.

Elfs got the new Medusa things, and the new Deepkin and the new Dryads. The old LotR-flavored Elfs are obviously going away.

Dorfs got the Balloons and the new Slayers. The generic Dorfs are again, obviously going away.

Basically, anything that is generically playable under Kings of War or Ninth Age is getting Squatted, simple as that. GW is Squatting lower-sellers first, but the old stuff from the Old World is obviously done and will be gone soon. When Age of Sigmar is done going through the armies (and there are a *lot* of them), there won't be anything left from the Old World.

I'm not so sure that the generic Dorfs are going away. They still have a GHB entry (and are apparently getting all their warmachines back in the new one), and overall they have a pretty decent plastic range, even if the basic troops are looking a bit dated. You only have to go onto TGA to see the enthusiastic support the Dispossessed have, and the many suggestions on what they can add to them in future.

They're apparently still selling quite well too. Hell, the only thing that's stopping me from collecting the Dispossessed is my lack of funds and time.

I still don't see GW getting rid of stuff based on "generic" when that term itself is highly debatable. Tombkings went not because of looks but because of sales same as Bretonians. The appearance was only part of it and lets face it - back then rules were what was driving many things out of sale along with a lack of attention and the fact that Vampires did most of the things TK did but better.

Many of their currently sold models are either generic to fantasy or they are so old in GW's lore that they are generic to fantasy wargames. I seriously doubt that GW feels any threat from having to "avoid what mantic is doing". Heck if anything I'd wager GW makes more sales from people using models in mantic than anything else.

I'd concur. GW is making plenty of money from people using their models in other game systems. For good reason... their models are to many people some of the best around.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Dorfs got the Balloons and the new Slayers. The generic Dorfs are again, obviously going away.

Basically, anything that is generically playable under Kings of War or Ninth Age is getting Squatted, simple as that. GW is Squatting lower-sellers first, but the old stuff from the Old World is obviously done and will be gone soon. When Age of Sigmar is done going through the armies (and there are a *lot* of them), there won't be anything left from the Old World.

I'm not so sure that the generic Dorfs are going away. They still have a GHB entry (and are apparently getting all their warmachines back in the new one), and overall they have a pretty decent plastic range, even if the basic troops are looking a bit dated.

Hell, the only thing that's stopping me from collecting the Dispossessed is my lack of funds and time.

The GHB entries for generic forces are transitional, not long term. Having great plastic models isn't going to save the range. Look at Wood Elves - they have arguably the best generic forest Elf line anywhere, but they are obviously going on the block.

In 2 or 3 years, GW will stop selling generic undermountain Dorfs, generic forest Elfs, etc. If you want to get the stuff new, you should treat 2019 as a long "Last Chance to Buy" sale, because the direction is crystal clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

auticus wrote:
I'd concur. GW is making plenty of money from people using their models in other game systems.

That's irrelevant. GW is run as a vertical hobby, where everything is GW from model to paint to rules. The sooner that Mantic, etc. die off due to a lack of quality models, the better for GW's bottom line. The only way this doesn't happen is if there are HUGE product sales akin to Space Marines, and that just doesn't happen for Fantasy

Where did you hear that these lines are going on the block? Sincere question, no hostility intended.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Where did you hear that these lines are going on the block? Sincere question, no hostility intended.

Where did you hear that those lines are going to stay?

Based on GW's actions since AoS launched, it's obvious that the Old World models are all "zombie" lines that only exist until they can be replaced by new product with an entirely new aesthetic and rulebase. Due to the sheer scale of the Old World, coupled with GW's ambition, and paced against 40k releases, this is a multi-year transition from the Old World to whatever AoS is going to be. Imagining that any of the Old World stuff from 8E survives the transition is just crazy.

Yikes I didn't realise that the fantasy ork boys were gone :-S

I think they were my favourite GW kit! Guess I'll have to hit ebay quick!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Where did you hear that these lines are going on the block? Sincere question, no hostility intended.

Where did you hear that those lines are going to stay?

Based on GW's actions since AoS launched, it's obvious that the Old World models are all "zombie" lines that only exist until they can be replaced by new product with an entirely new aesthetic and rulebase. Due to the sheer scale of the Old World, coupled with GW's ambition, and paced against 40k releases, this is a multi-year transition from the Old World to whatever AoS is going to be. Imagining that any of the Old World stuff from 8E survives the transition is just crazy.

Except for the fact that a lot of new armies (actually all of them barring the brand new ones) are using old GW models or updated sculpts of them. You don't spend a fortune making new squigs if your plan is to retire all old models and squigs. Just as they wouldn't keep Seraphon around if their plan was to retire them.

Honestly I don't get your angle at all, GW has clearly removed some lines and kept others; keeping those that generally sell well and don't compete with what else GW makes. I can see why Greenskins went as they shared a lot of similarities to other ork lines.


Meanwhile you've got armies like Fyreslayres where there's nothing new in them or armies like Daughters of Khaine where the whole core of the army is old models.

IF GW's plan is to retire old models entirely and without question then they are really going about it in a terribly bad way. I can see them keeping most old kits; updating some and losing others but in general keeping a lot.

I base this on what they've done thus far and what all their pre-release promotional material has shown for the next 3 months. Heck there's a new Flesh Eaters and Skaven twin set coming which has all old models save for 1 new hero each.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Where did you hear that these lines are going on the block? Sincere question, no hostility intended.

Where did you hear that those lines are going to stay?

Based on GW's actions since AoS launched, it's obvious that the Old World models are all "zombie" lines that only exist until they can be replaced by new product with an entirely new aesthetic and rulebase. Due to the sheer scale of the Old World, coupled with GW's ambition, and paced against 40k releases, this is a multi-year transition from the Old World to whatever AoS is going to be. Imagining that any of the Old World stuff from 8E survives the transition is just crazy.

I haven't heard anything to say that they are going to stay. That is pure conjecture on my part, hence why I said "I'm not so sure" to begin with. However, neither have I (nor you, by the looks of things) have heard anything to suggest that they aren't going to stay either. So it's all guesswork at the minute. All we can go on is evidence. And I don't think you can just say 'obviously these lines are going' based on what happened before, because it's not quite the same.

Lets look at the evidence. The Bretonians? Far too generic and 'real world', with a very aged line (lots of metals, plastics were also very old etc.). Tomb kings? Again, too 'real world' and aged (metals and old plastics). Their skeletons for example were based on the old style skeletons that had been around for the best part of 20 years.

However, the Wood Elves and old style Dwarfs? Not in as bad shape as the Brets and Kings. The elves have a few metal/finecast left over (and these are all characters I think). They lost a couple of units, but the remaining line is pretty well filled out. Meanwhile, the dwarfs are 100% plastic, and their only issue is some dated looking core troops. Furthermore, both factions have GHB entries and are established in the fluff.

Granted that didn't do the Gitmob any good, but for all we know they'll come back redesigned from the ground up. And that's my point. At the moment it's all conjecture. However, there's a lot of evidence to suggest that the older 'generic' lines might stay on. Imo, more than there is that suggests that they're going.

 Overread wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Plus there's always Ebay.

Ebay is always hit and miss. Currently a lot of the metal Skaven models sell for more on ebay than they do on the GW store brand new and by quite a large margin.

I am a Dogs of War player. Those models on eBay sell for significantly more than they ever did in the GW store brand new.

I do also wonder if they'll keep any of the old plastics if they offer good conversion ability to existing Sigmar or 40k factions.F.ex quite a few of the more recent elf sculpts are quite excellent to customize Eldar factions. They've more or less culled out all the old and ugly elf models that existed with the remaining kits being very good kits(although the Swordmaster kit is perhaps the odd kit around now).

What I do imagine might happen is that they might use some of the aelf models to boost existing factions(sorceress to DoK, some to Sylvaneth) and maybe use some of them as a basis for the newer factions.

Now, none of this is guaranteed, but one of the benefits of having good existing sculpts is that it becomes easy to create a new faction with a few additions a la DoK. Having core troops(and perhaps an HQ) gives GW a lot of freedom to create beautiful and badass kits to flesh out the rest.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Where did you hear that these lines are going on the block?

Where did you hear that those lines are going to stay?

Based on GW's actions since AoS launched, it's obvious that the Old World models are all "zombie" lines that only exist until they can be replaced by new product with an entirely new aesthetic and rulebase. Due to the sheer scale of the Old World, coupled with GW's ambition, and paced against 40k releases, this is a multi-year transition from the Old World to whatever AoS is going to be. Imagining that any of the Old World stuff from 8E survives the transition is just crazy.

I haven't heard anything to say that they are going to stay.

Lets look at the evidence.

However, the Wood Elves and old style Dwarfs?.

The fact that GW isn't remaking any of the models is evidence enough. The Balloon & "Fyre" guys will replace the Tolkien Dorfs. The fishmen will replace Helfs. Witch Elves will replace Delfs. Dryads will replace Welfs. That GW hasn't yet finished the transition doesn't mean the transition is over. In the mean time, the models will be sold and GW will keep printing things because they can get a few more dollars. And yes, the order and pace of things being phased in/out depends a lot on sales. But the idea that GW will keep selling things because they once did is false given GW's history. Recall that Dogs of War were the best-looking range GW had ever produced, and yet, they were phased out in 6E, desupported in 7E.

Wwhen GW does the next big thing for Fantasy (2020?), you should fully expect to see the Old World models de-supported. Not because the models are bad, and but because GW has a vested interest in making their own Fantasy world that is entirely their own. The fact that an ever-expanded range of models makes it increasingly difficult for Mantic & Ninth to support is even better from GW's POV.

I'm hoping for a reimagining for Brettonia as holy knights, and not just sigmarines.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I'm hoping for a reimagining for Brettonia as holy knights, and not just sigmarines.

My sense is that Sigmarines are the replacement for Empire and Bretonnia (and Tilea).

Truth be told I do believe GW's Dark Elf line is unique enough to stand on its own(GW might disagree, only time will tell) as most other dark elf lines in other lines tend to be more inspired by the TSR Drow than others. It is also why I think they are still keeping quite a few of them around as well as having already expanded a few of them into their own lines(DoK). The High Elves, however, were very generic and you can already see that most of the core troops are gone from that line. We also have at least 1 or 2 more standard aelf factions remaining with Tyrion and Teclis which is why I believe they will reuse some of the high elf and dark elf models. Which they are going to be is up to GW ofc.

I've got to agree with the idea that the intention is to slowly bin the generic old world factions. This will take a considerable amount of time however and whether or not this intention remains will be a different kettle of fish. Who knows who'll be guiding the AoS ship in the future. They might have a different idea of the direction they wish to take.

 lare2 wrote:
I've got to agree with the idea that the intention is to slowly bin the generic old world factions. This will take a considerable amount of time however and whether or not this intention remains will be a different kettle of fish. Who knows who'll be guiding the AoS ship in the future. They might have a different idea of the direction they wish to take.

I have always been of the opinion that if a faction doesn't have rules in the general handbook it's better to not to invest in them.

I think John is right. I think all generic fantasy factions will slowly be eliminated.

I would concur with that as well. GW wants the high fantasy that they can copyright, not the generic fantasy you can continue buying mantic or the perry twins models for at a fraction of the cost.

 shinros wrote:
I have always been of the opinion that if a faction doesn't have rules in the general handbook it's better to not to invest in them.

A model/faction being absent from the General's Handbook is the last step of the discontinuation process. The model itself will be off the website long before that.

And really, this can be said about any army that doesn't have its own Battletome - I think it's entirely possible that some elements of that army will survive and maybe even be expanded upon (see DoK) but it's a game of Russian roulette until they actually announce the book.

Lore-wise, they're setting up light and dark aelves super hard, and the wanderers exist in some form in the lore (though eventually it may just be that they scattered and were hunted down by chaos) but the odds of any one kit surviving the transition (even ones popular in AoS like sisters of the thorn) are up in the air.

Curious what happens with Skaven. They're a mess. IMO they should squat the pestilens battletome and make a new Skaven one. Then in that they could let you choose a clan similar to how Beasts of Chaos can pick a herd, and SCE can pick whatever it's called. Your battlelines will depend on your General like BoC.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Truth be told I do believe GW's Dark Elf line is unique enough to stand on its own(GW might disagree, only time will tell) as most other dark elf lines in other lines tend to be more inspired by the TSR Drow than others. It is also why I think they are still keeping quite a few of them around as well as having already expanded a few of them into their own lines(DoK).

The High Elves, however, were very generic and you can already see that most of the core troops are gone from that line. We also have at least 1 or 2 more standard aelf factions remaining with Tyrion and Teclis which is why I believe they will reuse some of the high elf and dark elf models. Which they are going to be is up to GW ofc.

The overwhelming bulk of the "Classic" Dark Elf line is just Goth/Emo-flavored High Elfs. The only stuff from the Dark Elf line that was distinctive were the Monsters and Witch Elves, which got merged together as DoK. The more generic Heroes, Crossbowmen, Spearmen, Corsairs, Executioners, Black Guard, Dark Riders, War Machines are all entirely forgettable and will be Squatted. Cold One Knights might get redone, but get embiggened, more monstrous mounts; however, it would be interesting if DoK become the all-girl army for Fantasy. Looking back through the Classic DE range, I kind of want a unit of the classic Black Guard as my Paymaster's Bodyguard, but that's got to wait until everything else is squared away.

The High Elves are generic, but the new Deep Elves are Tyrion / Teclis' replacement for High Elves. What's interesting to me is that GW didn't keep any of the old HE models for the Deep Elves, just all new stuff. It suggests that they didn't want to go with a super Lion theme, nor a super Dragon theme - which is odd, but understandable when Dragons are so overdone in generic fantasy. IMO, GW is leaving money on the table by not having a High Elf Dragonkin army that mirrors the Witch Elf Hydra army. Or, it's just too soon, and GW is saving that for later.

cmspano wrote:
Curious what happens with Skaven. They're a mess. IMO they should squat the pestilens battletome and make a new Skaven one. Then in that they could let you choose a clan similar to how Beasts of Chaos can pick a herd, and SCE can pick whatever it's called. Your battlelines will depend on your General like BoC.

A lot of people would be very happy with a single combined battletome for Skaven. I think even Pestilens players would be happy so long as they retained the ability to go solo within the book. It just makes so much more sense than trying to give each clan its own "clan rat" equivalent. Skyre running around with eliteheavies as a battleline troop just doesn't make sense.

Honestly most of their range isn't that bad. They could easily clean up 4 listings with a single weapon team kit with multiple weapon choices; then there's a few others to update into plastic. We already know theyv'e done new packmasters and ogres before so they could re-use those masters to update that sprue.

There's a lot of potential with Skaven it just really depends; I think after Beasts and Goblins there's a lot of hope that they'll do the same with Skaven and give them a single book. I think if thye start doing individual clan books its not an outright bad thing, but its a shame since esp in the lore Skaven often want to war as multi-clan.

Skaven are an army that GW could have ported over to AoS much more cleanly and given the Slayer / Witch Elf treatment. Lots of potential there with the Horned Rat, Rat Ogres, etc.

I’ve come around to the idea of a Skaven superbook, provided that the allegiance abilities we have for Pestilans and Skyre are retained in some shape or form.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Truth be told I do believe GW's Dark Elf line is unique enough to stand on its own(GW might disagree, only time will tell) as most other dark elf lines in other lines tend to be more inspired by the TSR Drow than others. It is also why I think they are still keeping quite a few of them around as well as having already expanded a few of them into their own lines(DoK).

The High Elves, however, were very generic and you can already see that most of the core troops are gone from that line. We also have at least 1 or 2 more standard aelf factions remaining with Tyrion and Teclis which is why I believe they will reuse some of the high elf and dark elf models. Which they are going to be is up to GW ofc.

The overwhelming bulk of the "Classic" Dark Elf line is just Goth/Emo-flavored High Elfs. The only stuff from the Dark Elf line that was distinctive were the Monsters and Witch Elves, which got merged together as DoK. The more generic Heroes, Crossbowmen, Spearmen, Corsairs, Executioners, Black Guard, Dark Riders, War Machines are all entirely forgettable and will be Squatted. Cold One Knights might get redone, but get embiggened, more monstrous mounts; however, it would be interesting if DoK become the all-girl army for Fantasy. Looking back through the Classic DE range, I kind of want a unit of the classic Black Guard as my Paymaster's Bodyguard, but that's got to wait until everything else is squared away.

The High Elves are generic, but the new Deep Elves are Tyrion / Teclis' replacement for High Elves. What's interesting to me is that GW didn't keep any of the old HE models for the Deep Elves, just all new stuff. It suggests that they didn't want to go with a super Lion theme, nor a super Dragon theme - which is odd, but understandable when Dragons are so overdone in generic fantasy. IMO, GW is leaving money on the table by not having a High Elf Dragonkin army that mirrors the Witch Elf Hydra army. Or, it's just too soon, and GW is saving that for later.

If GW was getting rid of all generic fantasy armies, we wouldn't have seen Beasts of Chaos stick around, nor Legions of Nagash. The former is your bog-standard creatures of Greek Mythology, and the latter are the same cookie-cutter gothic undead that have been around since the concept of a fantasy roleplaying game was invented.

auticus wrote:
I would concur with that as well. GW wants the high fantasy that they can copyright, not the generic fantasy you can continue buying mantic or the perry twins models for at a fraction of the cost.

As if that would prevent count as models from competition. If there's demand there will be supply for alternative company models

 EnTyme wrote:
If GW was getting rid of all generic fantasy armies, we wouldn't have seen Beasts of Chaos stick around, nor Legions of Nagash. The former is your bog-standard creatures of Greek Mythology, and the latter are the same cookie-cutter gothic undead that have been around since the concept of a fantasy roleplaying game was invented.

Sorry, but what did Beasts get after AoS launched? Same with Legions of Nagash? Were any of those things generic Greek Mythology? Or generic gothic undead?

If it's just carryover stuff from 8E, then the generic elements are almost certainly on the cutting block to be phased out in favor of things that are more GW AoS-specic

If GW is planning to "phase out" those armies, they wasted a lot of company resources on both battletomes and then a new terrain piece and endless spells for Beasts. The bottom line is that the reason kits are dropped is that some lines just aren't selling and/or overlap heavily with newer ranges.