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The Havocs can also take all special weapons, remember. So they are basically the specialist squad from HH; all special or all heavy.

What I suspect, as much as I don't like it (GW *really* needs to produce a weapon pack like they have the upgrades that contains like 2 of each weapon) is that the new kit will be compatible with the Forgeworld heavy/special weapon packs they sell. So if you want "havocs" you buy a CSM box and then order your 4 lascannons/autocannons/etc. from Forgeworld.

GW won't release a kit and say "Now buy the FW kit!". That's not the way they operate.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
GW won't release a kit and say "Now buy the FW kit!". That's not the way they operate.

Maybe but I also highly doubt they are giving more than 1 of each special weapon and 1 heavy weapon only (probably that heavy bolter) in the kit either. So whether they intend for it or not that's likely what will happen because nobody is dumb enough to buy 4 boxes of CSM to get enough special weapons to equip a squad, and it's not likely they will include multiple heavy weapons because they never do.

What sorcery is this?

Ambull Cookbook.
.

Hopefully a new Dark Apostle. But it could be a sorcerer, we already saw as a rumor engine a backpack with dragon iconography that looked identical to the old 2nd edition sorcerer backpack.

This really does seem like a complete revamp of the model line. Which I hope beyond hope means a new codex. Great looking models with gak rules are still gak overall.

I'm sort of looking out to see if there are any new Cultist daemon engines. It'd be pretty boss if they got a proper Cultist kit based on the Blackstone Fortress Traiter Guardsmen.

Wayniac wrote:
The Havocs can also take all special weapons, remember. So they are basically the specialist squad from HH; all special or all heavy.

What I suspect, as much as I don't like it (GW *really* needs to produce a weapon pack like they have the upgrades that contains like 2 of each weapon) is that the new kit will be compatible with the Forgeworld heavy/special weapon packs they sell. So if you want "havocs" you buy a CSM box and then order your 4 lascannons/autocannons/etc. from Forgeworld.

If they're going to do Havocs like they've done Devastators, you're getting 2 of each heavy weapon.

I've been wondering though if they'll split off the Special Weapons into their own schtick instead. Havocs with both special and heavy weapon options? That makes for some very packed sprues.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
I'm sort of looking out to see if there are any new Cultist daemon engines. It'd be pretty boss if they got a proper Cultist kit based on the Blackstone Fortress Traiter Guardsmen.

I would love if you had a way to like, use Traitor Guard as the shooty cultists, and use Beastmen (maybe with some mutants/humans) with pistols and weapons as the melee (ha) cultists. Might be a good way to get variety since cultists usually would not look uniform at all.

However part of me also wants a full-fledged "Codex: Lost and the Damned" to replace Renegades & Heretics. I found the old Codex: Eye of Terror and really, they need to bring this back and in a proper form (along with the 3.5 CSM codex but that's another topic). Hopefully traitor guard and beastmen from BSF herald it for the future?

Traitors, Mutants (beastmen and other stuff that you could give mutations for certain bonuses), traitor tanks (Leman Russ or Basilisk in those days).

Bah reading this brings back memories of when Chaos was good, in the golden age of 3.5

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Here’s a minority opinion: They shouldn’t bring out a havoc kit because havocs are just spiky devastators. Why do chaos marines have devastator squads?

Among the many things with chaos space marines that make no sense (starting with their stat line) is that they follow the codex astartes in their squad configuration, fielding tactical, devastator and assault squads. Why do they did they ever start doing that? Why are they still doing it, now that even the loyalist marines have stopped?

I don’t have a problem with there being CSMs with heavy weapons. But their organisation should be totally different. They should either follow the legion structure, say in the case of Iron Warriors, or for some of the more “out there” legions they should have barely any visible organisation at all.

I too demand rules leaks. I’m putting together a Primaris army for the GT finals. It’s looking like these models could be in shops the week before the event, which would mean some rapid painting on my part!

So the marines that were in devastator equivalents during the HH should just put their heavy weapons down and go nuts with a bolt pistol and chainsword? What about chapters that have recently gone renegade?

Yeah, it's boring that they are just spikes marines, but the fluff justification of it is glaring and obvious.

They should really be set up like the Legions are now, which each model having a slightly cheaper buy-in but EVERYONE buys a Heavy or Special Weapon.

Remember also that the way the Chaos roster has been set up for the last 30 years has also been a reflection of the way Loyalist chapters were set up.

We always look to the old legions as the focal point for Chaos Marines, but many Chaos Warbands are rogue Loyalist Chapters who adhered to the Codex Astartes before they fell to chaos.

Thats why they follow the same structure. They've been using that style of warfare for hundreds of years, changing allegiances isn't going to immediately affect the way you fight a war.

Thats why we still have havocs, tactical squads etc...

Not to mention that Legion structure and organization has only been fleshed out in the last like 7 years since the HH series started. Before then we just had fluff to go by, and most of our kits are way older than 7 years old.

My opinion: Give me the classics man. I don't care for this Primaris bs. They should have never been created, I don't want stupid new names for squads like hellblasters just because they are devastator squads who use plasma exclusively. I want options, this isn't eldar. One unit isn't supposed to do one specific thing. Marines are supposed to be tactically flexible. They should be able to outshoot combat units and out fight shooting units. Right now we can't do either, and it shows.

They should really be set up like the Legions are now, which each model having a slightly cheaper buy-in but EVERYONE buys a Heavy or Special Weapon.

Agree with this though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They should really be set up like the Legions are now, which each model having a slightly cheaper buy-in but EVERYONE buys a Heavy or Special Weapon.

I agree that the (most) CSM should work as Legions worked; unfortunately that is what they are going for with Primaris (Hellblasters, Eliminators, etc.) to some extent.

I'd love to see some heresy specific units making a comeback for the CSM, such as the Destroyers.

 Darkseid wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They should really be set up like the Legions are now, which each model having a slightly cheaper buy-in but EVERYONE buys a Heavy or Special Weapon.

I agree that the (most) CSM should work as Legions worked; unfortunately that is what they are going for with Primaris (Hellblasters, Eliminators, etc.) to some extent.

I'd love to see some heresy specific units making a comeback for the CSM, such as the Destroyers.

I actually think they should embrace the warp-corrupted stuff. Chaos Hereteks are more likely to mess around with and jury-rig stuff than the Mechanicus, so they should have a lot more weird weapons that are obviously based on old heresy designs, but then corrupted and twisted to use other types of ammo. Like I think all chaos should be using Ectoplasma instead of Plasma (with hopefully more than just a difference in name), Baleflame(rs) instead of Flame(rs), etc. Just a lot of stuff that hearkens back to heresy era technology but as the millennia have worn on have been retrofitted with dark magic, daemon energy, and the like so that they only superficially resemble the weapons they used to be.

Personally if I were GW I would roll Chosen, Chaos Space Marines and Havocs all into one squad and then make it an Elite choice.

Cultists, traitor guard and mutants should be CSM troops. Every CSM should be a chosen to mark the difference between them and loyalists. And you should be able to equip the squad however you want to fit whatever role you want.

CSM should be less durable than a primaris but more fighty in both morale and CC.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Personally if I were GW I would roll Chosen, Chaos Space Marines and Havocs all into one squad and then make it an Elite choice.

Cultists, traitor guard and mutants should be CSM troops. Every CSM should be a chosen to mark the difference between them and loyalists. And you should be able to equip the squad however you want to fit whatever role you want.

CSM should be less durable than a primaris but more fighty in both morale and CC.

I could go with this in some regard, especially if they brought back the old Veteran Rewards from 3.5. That plus large customization would be good. IMHO chaos marines need a Primaris-like statline.

However the issue with this is always that GW wants to have "Chaos Space marines" encompass both traitors and recent renegades, those really should be two different things.

Eh. The problem is the modern HH legion rules don't reflect the fluff that existed when the CSM were created. Limits on weapons date from a time when the terms chapter and legion were used interchangeably, and were more a matter of game balance than fluff.

I don't think retconning the heresy changes into 40k would be a good thing.

Voss wrote:
Eh. The problem is the modern HH legion rules don't reflect the fluff that existed when the CSM were created. Limits on weapons date from a time when the terms chapter and legion were used interchangeably, and were more a matter of game balance than fluff.

I don't think retconning the heresy changes into 40k would be a good thing.

Not quite but close enough. When the CSM stuff was really fleshed out in 2nd edition (it changed a good bit from the old Rogue Trader era stuff) the idea was that they used more common/older patterns of weapons, which is why they use combi-bolters (precursor to Storm Bolters), autocannon (easier to produce and precursor to assault cannons; IIRC in 2nd autocannons were only on terminators and vehicles and wasn't meant to be man-portable), chaos plasma was the only one that could overheat (due to being an older, more dangerous model) and the like. The design goal was to make Chaos use more archaic versions of the weaponry used by the loyalists to show they came from an age 10,000 years ago (and also why Red Corsairs could take loyalist weapons/vehicles for +25% points, showing that they were a newer group)

It's just when they fleshed out Heresy they added all these weird "lost" technologies but never updated the CSM range to have access to those despite having them in the Heresy with the new fluff.

Wayniac wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Personally if I were GW I would roll Chosen, Chaos Space Marines and Havocs all into one squad and then make it an Elite choice.

Cultists, traitor guard and mutants should be CSM troops. Every CSM should be a chosen to mark the difference between them and loyalists. And you should be able to equip the squad however you want to fit whatever role you want.

CSM should be less durable than a primaris but more fighty in both morale and CC.

I could go with this in some regard, especially if they brought back the old Veteran Rewards from 3.5. That plus large customization would be good. IMHO chaos marines need a Primaris-like statline.

However the issue with this is always that GW wants to have "Chaos Space marines" encompass both traitors and recent renegades, those really should be two different things.

My personal fix is scrapping the Chaos Marine entry and making Chosen the basic troop choice for the non-Cult Legions. Then those non-cult Legions get some other choice as a Troop (kinda like the Legion supplement from last edition), and everyone outside Cultists has Vet stats at minimum.

Wayniac wrote:The Havocs can also take all special weapons, remember. So they are basically the specialist squad from HH; all special or all heavy.

What I suspect, as much as I don't like it (GW *really* needs to produce a weapon pack like they have the upgrades that contains like 2 of each weapon) is that the new kit will be compatible with the Forgeworld heavy/special weapon packs they sell. So if you want "havocs" you buy a CSM box and then order your 4 lascannons/autocannons/etc. from Forgeworld.

Or you know, one can go to a bit site and take a look at the section with Mk III or IV bits. These sprues were so cheap and readily available each bit shop ordered dozens of Battle of X boxes and the inventories are packed with hundreds if not thousands of Heresy era special/heavy guns, perfectly appropriate for CSM. I still don't get the dumb Havoc fixation, it would be one thing if they had even a single cosmetic difference to other CSM (like Devastators in SM with their 'heavy' legs and helmets) but they are exactly identical and the plastic Havocs are at the very bottom of list of things CSM need. I'd even say below plastic chaos Thunderhawk.

Hell, GW was even so kind to put plastic legion style autocannons in Shadow Spear box, just grab these and get converting

H.B.M.C. wrote:GW won't release a kit and say "Now buy the FW kit!". That's not the way they operate.

Yup, GW would never tell you to go grab upgrade pack if you want multiple of a gun.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Space-Marine-Plasma-Guns
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Space-Marine-Meltaguns
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Space-Marines-Noise-Marine-Sonic-Weapons
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Space-Marines-Noise-Marines-Upgrade-Pack
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Space-Marines-Iron-Warriors-Upgrade-Pack

But maybe these are some sort of arcane hidden secret, surely GW wouldn't put the weapon packs front and center on their TV page and told new players how to conver--

https://youtu.be/FH0h-fA_EWE

Oh wait, you were saying?

Also Renegades need to be handled in the base Vanilla Marine codex, full stop.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also Renegades need to be handled in the base Vanilla Marine codex, full stop.

I would agree with this. This is why we need 0-1 restrictions back, so you could make your force Renegade and lose access to some things, but get access to others from the Chaos codex.

Wayniac wrote:

Voss wrote:
Eh. The problem is the modern HH legion rules don't reflect the fluff that existed when the CSM were created. Limits on weapons date from a time when the terms chapter and legion were used interchangeably, and were more a matter of game balance than fluff.

I don't think retconning the heresy changes into 40k would be a good thing.

Not quite but close enough. When the CSM stuff was really fleshed out in 2nd the idea was that they used more common/older patterns of weapons, which is why they use combi-bolters (precursor to Storm Bolters), autocannon (easier to produce and precursor to assault cannons; IIRC in 2nd autocannons were only on terminators and vehicles), chaos plasma was the only one that could overheat (due to being an older, more dangerous model) and the like. The design goal was to make Chaos use more archaic versions of the weaponry used by the loyalists to show they came from an age 10,000 years ago (and also why Red Corsairs could take loyalist weapons/vehicles for +25% points, showing that they were a newer group)

It's just when they fleshed out Heresy they added all these weird "lost" technologies but never updated the CSM range to have access to those despite having them in the Heresy with the new fluff.

I don't know if close enough is all that correct, to be honest. It's quite accurate that all those things people ask for when they say "but Legions!" is stuff that has been expanded with a healthy dose of retcon added on top a decade later. The theme was there in 2nd ed, as you say, but that really only pertains to the type of equipment, not how that equipment and the Marines are organized.

Not that that matters a lot now. People generally understand the Horus Heresy to be what has been described since the trading card game, and since GW seems to be overhauling Chaos Marines completely anyway they might as well bring modern Chaos Marines in line with that.

Not that that solves the Renegade vs. Legionnaire problem, or the probable underlying problem that the people in the design studio are clueless. Or the way GW gives us slightly upscaled Chaos Marines now but will probably be unwilling to bring their stats in line with Primaris because they'll see Chaos Marines as equivalents of Marines and while those are still around, their spiky cousins can't just outdo them. It's great to get new Chaos models, but I think the problem that will not be overcome with this release is the general attitude in the studio.

Wayniac wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also Renegades need to be handled in the base Vanilla Marine codex, full stop.

I would agree with this. This is why we need 0-1 restrictions back, so you could make your force Renegade and lose access to some things, but get access to others from the Chaos codex.

My idea was that the Renegades lose access to other Chapter specific units, but gained a couple more chaos ones, specifically Possessed, Warp Talons, and Spawn. Someone pointed out that takes more routing of Chaos taint so it's back to the drawing board for me.

Wayniac wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also Renegades need to be handled in the base Vanilla Marine codex, full stop.

I would agree with this. This is why we need 0-1 restrictions back, so you could make your force Renegade and lose access to some things, but get access to others from the Chaos codex.

If Renegades were to get handled separately, these days you'd probably look at a codex of their own that takes a page from the Genestealer book and their inclusion of Imperial Guard units.

 Geifer wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

Voss wrote:
Eh. The problem is the modern HH legion rules don't reflect the fluff that existed when the CSM were created. Limits on weapons date from a time when the terms chapter and legion were used interchangeably, and were more a matter of game balance than fluff.

I don't think retconning the heresy changes into 40k would be a good thing.

Not quite but close enough. When the CSM stuff was really fleshed out in 2nd the idea was that they used more common/older patterns of weapons, which is why they use combi-bolters (precursor to Storm Bolters), autocannon (easier to produce and precursor to assault cannons; IIRC in 2nd autocannons were only on terminators and vehicles), chaos plasma was the only one that could overheat (due to being an older, more dangerous model) and the like. The design goal was to make Chaos use more archaic versions of the weaponry used by the loyalists to show they came from an age 10,000 years ago (and also why Red Corsairs could take loyalist weapons/vehicles for +25% points, showing that they were a newer group)

It's just when they fleshed out Heresy they added all these weird "lost" technologies but never updated the CSM range to have access to those despite having them in the Heresy with the new fluff.

I don't know if close enough is all that correct, to be honest. It's quite accurate that all those things people ask for when they say "but Legions!" is stuff that has been expanded with a healthy dose of retcon added on top a decade later. The theme was there in 2nd ed, as you say, but that really only pertains to the type of equipment, not how that equipment and the Marines are organized.

Not that that matters a lot now. People generally understand the Horus Heresy to be what has been described since the trading card game, and since GW seems to be overhauling Chaos Marines completely anyway they might as well bring modern Chaos Marines in line with that.

Not that that solves the Renegade vs. Legionnaire problem, or the probable underlying problem that the people in the design studio are clueless. Or the way GW gives us slightly upscaled Chaos Marines now but will probably be unwilling to bring their stats in line with Primaris because they'll see Chaos Marines as equivalents of Marines and while those are still around, their spiky cousins can't just outdo them. It's great to get new Chaos models, but I think the problem that will not be overcome with this release is the general attitude in the studio.

I do feel they seem clueless about how to properly handle Chaos. Or they are unwilling to make the split between Renegade vs. Traitor Legion when they are distinctly different despite superficially lookiing the same. What would be cool is making Possessed or Chosen the CSM equivalent to Primaris.

 Geifer wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

Voss wrote:
Eh. The problem is the modern HH legion rules don't reflect the fluff that existed when the CSM were created. Limits on weapons date from a time when the terms chapter and legion were used interchangeably, and were more a matter of game balance than fluff.

I don't think retconning the heresy changes into 40k would be a good thing.

Not quite but close enough. When the CSM stuff was really fleshed out in 2nd the idea was that they used more common/older patterns of weapons, which is why they use combi-bolters (precursor to Storm Bolters), autocannon (easier to produce and precursor to assault cannons; IIRC in 2nd autocannons were only on terminators and vehicles), chaos plasma was the only one that could overheat (due to being an older, more dangerous model) and the like. The design goal was to make Chaos use more archaic versions of the weaponry used by the loyalists to show they came from an age 10,000 years ago (and also why Red Corsairs could take loyalist weapons/vehicles for +25% points, showing that they were a newer group)

It's just when they fleshed out Heresy they added all these weird "lost" technologies but never updated the CSM range to have access to those despite having them in the Heresy with the new fluff.

I don't know if close enough is all that correct, to be honest. It's quite accurate that all those things people ask for when they say "but Legions!" is stuff that has been expanded with a healthy dose of retcon added on top a decade later. The theme was there in 2nd ed, as you say, but that really only pertains to the type of equipment, not how that equipment and the Marines are organized.

Not that that matters a lot now. People generally understand the Horus Heresy to be what has been described since the trading card game, and since GW seems to be overhauling Chaos Marines completely anyway they might as well bring modern Chaos Marines in line with that.

Not that that solves the Renegade vs. Legionnaire problem, or the probable underlying problem that the people in the design studio are clueless. Or the way GW gives us slightly upscaled Chaos Marines now but will probably be unwilling to bring their stats in line with Primaris because they'll see Chaos Marines as equivalents of Marines and while those are still around, their spiky cousins can't just outdo them. It's great to get new Chaos models, but I think the problem that will not be overcome with this release is the general attitude in the studio.

The real problem there are sperg marine players that would go mental at having to buy a new army. It's why this long awaited CSM release, lovely though it seems to be, is outdated before it's even on sale.

 Irbis wrote:

Wayniac wrote:The Havocs can also take all special weapons, remember. So they are basically the specialist squad from HH; all special or all heavy.

What I suspect, as much as I don't like it (GW *really* needs to produce a weapon pack like they have the upgrades that contains like 2 of each weapon) is that the new kit will be compatible with the Forgeworld heavy/special weapon packs they sell. So if you want "havocs" you buy a CSM box and then order your 4 lascannons/autocannons/etc. from Forgeworld.

Or you know, one can go to a bit site and take a look at the section with Mk III or IV bits. These sprues were so cheap and readily available each bit shop ordered dozens of Battle of X boxes and the inventories are packed with hundreds if not thousands of Heresy era special/heavy guns, perfectly appropriate for CSM. I still don't get the dumb Havoc fixation, it would be one thing if they had even a single cosmetic difference to other CSM (like Devastators in SM with their 'heavy' legs and helmets) but they are exactly identical and the plastic Havocs are at the very bottom of list of things CSM need. I'd even say below plastic chaos Thunderhawk.

Hell, GW was even so kind to put plastic legion style autocannons in Shadow Spear box, just grab these and get converting

H.B.M.C. wrote:GW won't release a kit and say "Now buy the FW kit!". That's not the way they operate.

Yup, GW would never tell you to go grab upgrade pack if you want multiple of a gun.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Space-Marine-Plasma-Guns
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Space-Marine-Meltaguns
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Space-Marines-Noise-Marine-Sonic-Weapons
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Space-Marines-Noise-Marines-Upgrade-Pack
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Space-Marines-Iron-Warriors-Upgrade-Pack

But maybe these are some sort of arcane hidden secret, surely GW wouldn't put the weapon packs front and center on their TV page and told new players how to conver--

https://youtu.be/FH0h-fA_EWE

Oh wait, you were saying?

These aren't FW conversion packs though, so they are in no way a contradiction of what HBMC said

 Geifer wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also Renegades need to be handled in the base Vanilla Marine codex, full stop.

I would agree with this. This is why we need 0-1 restrictions back, so you could make your force Renegade and lose access to some things, but get access to others from the Chaos codex.

If Renegades were to get handled separately, these days you'd probably look at a codex of their own that takes a page from the Genestealer book and their inclusion of Imperial Guard units.

Honestly?

That's kinda the best way to handle it. A legitimate book of their own, not some "If you take this <Blooogarity>, you can take w, x, y, z, banana from the Chaos Space Marines or Daemons books."


I would say that the Blackstone Fortress setup might have been a 'first look' at a potential Renegades and Heretics book down the road.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JSG wrote:

The real problem there are sperg marine players that would go mental at having to buy a new army. It's why this long awaited CSM release, lovely though it seems to be, is outdated before it's even on sale.

And this kind of atititude doesn't help matters any.

We don't know jack about what's happening outside of what looks like a pretty extensive haul of new models for Chaos and a smaller addition to the Primaris range.

I have to say that I find it massively ironic that the same person who constantly cries about GW removing rule options for stuff there are no bits in the kit seems to be unable of gluing a heavy weapon from another kit on a CSM. It is exactly because GW thinks that their customers are inept like this that the options get removed!

Uh oh...

Anyway, at least we can somewhat guess these things - better than the usual rumor pics!