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 Asherian Command wrote:
The new lore seems rushed, and this stuff seems out of well.. stupidity. Don't they know space marines are the speartip in a formation? They never go in like in long lines their whole point is to destroy enemy leadership, supply, cripple morale, and strategic objectives.. it even says that in their codex.

It might "say" so but if you think about it for a second, regular SM company is mechanized infantry force with tanks and artillery. This is not how a force doing the above looks like, especially if they have heavy armour and dreadnoughts, units even less suited to anything but frontal smashing. Until now, GW was making excuses "oh, look, if they leave all their support behind and act like disorganized light infantry unit they can totally do recon and behind the lines assault, honest guv!" but now SM are getting proper tools for missions like this.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
... two weapons we know exist in the box seeing ...

We don't know what box they belong to. We can presume they belong to Shadow Spear, but that's all we can do: Presume.

If GW put unrelated models into Spear videos it would be really not cool. IMO, I still can't see a 'campaign' box being full of push-fits when last 5 or 6 of them were multiparts, so I hope it's full sized kits. Especially seeing camplaign boxes are quickly discontinued and I can't see GW making moulds for that many units twice, but we'll see.

 Yodhrin wrote:
The point is that the idea "technology is scary" is somehow beyond the pale and "grimderp" is ridiculous given the broader context of the setting, which is full of illogical, extreme, over-the-top renditions of all sorts of things.

Except, you know, when people object to 'grimderp' they don't mean grimdark. They mean comically stupid, over the top idiocy that would have toppled Imperium in 10 years, never mind 10 millennia. Stuff like garbage new lore stating each commissar has to kill several other commissar-cadets in order to graduate, SM recruiting process having 99.9% mortality rate (especially when they recruit from a planet with tiny population that would never sustain this) with extra geneseed apparently materializing from thin air, and rest of the crap that states Imperium pointlessly kills trillions at every single possible step which only turns grimdark into farce and so cheapens it that genuinely dark portions of the lore cease to trigger any reaction in an audience that was already numbed to death twice.

To actually see Imperium being competent in areas where they really should is not only refreshing, I have no idea how anyone can take grimderp "even highest echelons of AM don't know how a toaster works" idiocy over it. Technology is scary, yes, but DAoT one. Not what Imperium is using. If AM can design and produce hurricane bolters (a very complex and complicated weapon system that nevertheless works flawlessly), bolt rifles should pose no problem whatsoever. Ditto for Mk X armour, they designed Mk VIII, so adding a few bits from Mk IV to that and calling it a day should be trivial. Yet, grimderp proponents say doing stuff that already happened in old lore dozens of times somehow makes Cawl a mary sue and he should focus on venerating toasters instead. Gee, I have no idea why people might object to that

Hotrod wrote:
Space Marines :
Librarian in Phobos Armour : Librarian that can set up anywhere more than 9" away from enemy deployment zone and models. Also has a camo cloak, which adds 2 to saving throws in cover.
Captain in Phobos Armour : Same as Librarian, but is a captain. Armed with Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt-Carbine (what a mouthful). S4, AP-2, 2 damage, can target characters even if they're not the closest. Has combat knife too, same as Reivers.
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour : Same as above. Has Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, S4, AP0, D2, units don't get cover saves against it. Also has combat knife.
Eliminator Squad : Squad of 3 . They have bolt sniper rifles, two different ammo types. Both are heavy 1, 36" and S4. Executionner rounds are AP-2, D3 damage and rolls of 6 do mortal wounds. Mortis rounds are AP-1, 1 damage, can target units that aren't visible, they don't get cover and add 2(!) to hit rolls with these rounds. Also have the abilities of the librarian.
Infiltrator Squads : Squad of 5, can have up to 10 with an Infiltrator Helix Adept. Armed with Marksman Bolt Carbine, Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP0, 1 damage. Each unmodified hit of 6 does an instant hit and wound. Helix Adept is basically an apothecary, it can heal or revive a model from the unit.
Suppressor Squad : Squad of 3, can deep strike with the grav-chutes. 12" movement. They have Accelerator Autocannons, heavy 2, S7, AP-2, 2 damage. Also, when they kill a model in a unit, that unit can't shoot until the end of the turn (so I guess it cancels out overwatch?).

That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.

Those Phobos characters will go really well with my Inceptors... as long as they don't cost more than their jump pack non-primaris versions.

The snipers... expected a but more (S5, at least). Still, firing at hiding enemies is awesome - although +2 to hit and ignoring cover alone would be good enough! The other ammo is... eh, Vindicare already does that better. Wait, they're HS? Ugh. I'm already using those slots for Devastators and Contemptor-Mortises...

Infiltrators already sound better than Reivers!

Suppressors are nice. They're basically disassembled Storm Cannon Arrays with attached marines. They're FA, which makes them quite nice (although Elites would be awesome)

Can't say I'm a big fan of this sniping at targets out of LOS thing. Same with those annoying Knight missiles - it just means that my Crypteks and Weirdboys never survive T1. Takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because I have no way to react to it, except leave them out of my list in the first place. It kind of sucks.

 Oguhmek wrote:
Can't say I'm a big fan of this sniping at targets out of LOS thing. Same with those annoying Knight missiles - it just means that my Crypteks and Weirdboys never survive T1. Takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because I have no way to react to it, except leave them out of my list in the first place. It kind of sucks.

I don't think it allows them to target characters, just units they can't see. Isn't the character rule wording that they can't be targeted unless they're the closeted model? Rather than them being out of line of sight.

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Oguhmek wrote:
Can't say I'm a big fan of this sniping at targets out of LOS thing. Same with those annoying Knight missiles - it just means that my Crypteks and Weirdboys never survive T1. Takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because I have no way to react to it, except leave them out of my list in the first place. It kind of sucks.

I don't think it allows them to target characters, just units they can't see. Isn't the character rule wording that they can't be targeted unless they're the closeted model? Rather than them being out of line of sight.

If they're snipers they'll be able to target characters and score mortal wounds on wound rolls of 6 from memory, ontop of the other jazz. But since they basically auto hit a lot of stuff, that's mental.

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Oguhmek wrote:
Can't say I'm a big fan of this sniping at targets out of LOS thing. Same with those annoying Knight missiles - it just means that my Crypteks and Weirdboys never survive T1. Takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because I have no way to react to it, except leave them out of my list in the first place. It kind of sucks.

I don't think it allows them to target characters, just units they can't see. Isn't the character rule wording that they can't be targeted unless they're the closeted model? Rather than them being out of line of sight.

I think he means the general rule that all snipers can target characters even if they aren't the closest model but until we see the datasheet, who knows if that round can

If the leaks are true, Primaris look to be getting a huge buff.

Chaos seems incredibly lackluster. Not that I should be surprised. Greater possessed seem cool, Venomcrawler seems like hot garbage. Master of Possession seems like trash but if he gets his own discipline could be decent.

Very very disappointing for Chaos right now. If these aren't holdover rules until a forthcoming new codex soon (like the Kelermorph's rules in the KT box that were immediately changed in the codex) I'm done I think. They've had too long to fix stuff and show they don't know or care how to do it right.

Wayniac wrote:
If the leaks are true, Primaris look to be getting a huge buff.

Chaos seems incredibly lackluster. Not that I should be surprised. Greater possessed seem cool, Venomcrawler seems like hot garbage. Master of Possession seems like trash but if he gets his own discipline could be decent.

Very very disappointing for Chaos right now. If these aren't holdover rules until a forthcoming new codex soon (like the Kelermorph's rules in the KT box that were immediately changed in the codex) I'm done I think. They've had too long to fix stuff and show they don't know or care how to do it right.

There are still some unknowns admittedly but the venom crawler seems a bit like it's lost. Its not as durable as a defiler, not as good at melee as a maulerfiend and not as good at ranged support as a forgefiend from what had been relayed so far. Hoping the full dataslate holds some secrets.

Dudeface wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
If the leaks are true, Primaris look to be getting a huge buff.

Chaos seems incredibly lackluster. Not that I should be surprised. Greater possessed seem cool, Venomcrawler seems like hot garbage. Master of Possession seems like trash but if he gets his own discipline could be decent.

Very very disappointing for Chaos right now. If these aren't holdover rules until a forthcoming new codex soon (like the Kelermorph's rules in the KT box that were immediately changed in the codex) I'm done I think. They've had too long to fix stuff and show they don't know or care how to do it right.

There are still some unknowns admittedly but the venom crawler seems a bit like it's lost. Its not as durable as a defiler, not as good at melee as a maulerfiend and not as good at ranged support as a forgefiend from what had been relayed so far. Hoping the full dataslate holds some secrets.

Probably a buff aura for dameon keyword units?
Because of the lore? But tbh that is about as usefull for a CSM army as the old possesed look.

 Mantle wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Oguhmek wrote:
Can't say I'm a big fan of this sniping at targets out of LOS thing. Same with those annoying Knight missiles - it just means that my Crypteks and Weirdboys never survive T1. Takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because I have no way to react to it, except leave them out of my list in the first place. It kind of sucks.

I don't think it allows them to target characters, just units they can't see. Isn't the character rule wording that they can't be targeted unless they're the closeted model? Rather than them being out of line of sight.

I think he means the general rule that all snipers can target characters even if they aren't the closest model but until we see the datasheet, who knows if that round can

Oh right. I though we were just going off what that leaker guy said a while back, who said one of their bullet types can target units out of LoS. But you're right, no one has said they can't target characters as well.

 Oguhmek wrote:
Can't say I'm a big fan of this sniping at targets out of LOS thing. Same with those annoying Knight missiles - it just means that my Crypteks and Weirdboys never survive T1. Takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because I have no way to react to it, except leave them out of my list in the first place. It kind of sucks.

The we'll be back rule is genuinely one of the most frustrating rules in the game, crypteks do not bring any fun to the game, they are nearly as bad as tau with the drones.

Secondly, orks are strong, so many ork players on here whinging, like with the vindicare new rules.... You can't shoot them if they are in a vehicle, you have ways to mitigate it. Armies need hard counters to your characters and it is fluffy, orks fall apart and into disarray once the bigger works start dying.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Oguhmek wrote:
Can't say I'm a big fan of this sniping at targets out of LOS thing. Same with those annoying Knight missiles - it just means that my Crypteks and Weirdboys never survive T1. Takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because I have no way to react to it, except leave them out of my list in the first place. It kind of sucks.

The we'll be back rule is genuinely one of the most frustrating rules in the game, crypteks do not bring any fun to the game, they are nearly as bad as tau with the drones.

Secondly, orks are strong, so many ork players on here whinging, like with the vindicare new rules.... You can't shoot them if they are in a vehicle, you have ways to mitigate it. Armies need hard counters to your characters and it is fluffy, orks fall apart and into disarray once the bigger works start dying.

Except that a charachter in a vehicle might aswell not exist since he has no impact.

Feels like so much overlap between Primaris units. What's the point of Reivers now that you have Infiltrators? They shoot better, can also deep strike and are Troops!

 Mymearan wrote:
Feels like so much overlap between Primaris units. What's the point of Reivers now that you have Infiltrators? They shoot better, can also deep strike and are Troops!

They can reach high places? One would think melee, but... Yeah, I got nothing.

 Mymearan wrote:
Feels like so much overlap between Primaris units. What's the point of Reivers now that you have Infiltrators? They shoot better, can also deep strike and are Troops!

And supressor are inceptor with more range a heavy weapon and some rule.

Any other Chaos players totally bummed by the lacklustre leaks? If the rules I’ve seen are true this release seems more about creating a new keyword, ‘Daemonkin’ than Actually making Possessed work. They still suffer from a lack of an effective delivery mechanism outside of taking Dreadclaws from the Forgeworld book. I hope there’s a lot left to see because a few stronger Possessed with a few more wounds won’t see them on the tables and I have 20 Gal Vorbak I desperately want to use in a Black Legion list.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
Feels like so much overlap between Primaris units. What's the point of Reivers now that you have Infiltrators? They shoot better, can also deep strike and are Troops!

And supressor are inceptor with more range a heavy weapon and some rule.

Supressors are only T4, and don’t have the crushing charge rule (not a huge loss there). But they do have +2” of movement, and pistols/grenades they will never use.

Malefic666 wrote:
Any other Chaos players totally bummed by the lacklustre leaks? If the rules I’ve seen are true this release seems more about creating a new keyword, ‘Daemonkin’ than Actually making Possessed work. They still suffer from a lack of an effective delivery mechanism outside of taking Dreadclaws from the Forgeworld book. I hope there’s a lot left to see because a few stronger Possessed with a few more wounds won’t see them on the tables and I have 20 Gal Vorbak I desperately want to use in a Black Legion list.

Can't comment on chaos, but I'm pretty bummed at the Primaris leaks so far. Suppressors seem really awkward with that combination of mobility and heavy weapons. Eliminators look fun, and I guess it's cool to have Primaris HQs and troops in place early to support the deep strike elements, but nothing about any of those units strike me as particularly powerful or interesting. Leak suggests no vanguard keywords either, so no special vanguard rules.

I'm really disappointed the snipers only shoot S4. A big heavy bolt caliber sniper would have been awesome

The most depressing part of this whole release hasn't been anything from GW. It's overwhelmingly been from the reactions. Am one of the only people who doesn't need to have good rules to like a unit?
If so many people are put off by the Primaris models, I'll be happily snapping them up on Ebay!

Yodhrin wrote:Yes, absolutely, and while we're at it the Administratum is a ludicrous concept, the Imperium should operate like a well-oiled machine with competent bureaucrats. And the Ecclesiarchy is just silly, societies that operate based on fear and repression stagnate, so they should rework the Imperium's religion to be more like the Quakers. Not to mention how horribly bigoted the Imperium are towards genetic minorities, it's monstrous that the differently-limbed and multi-headed receive such discriminatory treatment and it makes no sense to limit the potential of a significant minority of your society out of superstition and phobic fear, Mutant Rights Now!

But these make sense? These are all realistic elements of 40k. Unless that was ironic, of course.

I know the "muh Rogue Trader, muh Oldhammer" lot object, but it's really time to face up to reality; 40K is "grimderp", and pretty much always has been. Even when it was "funny" it was "grimderp". Even when it was Wardian-heroic it was "grimderp". Even now it's being transformed into a saturday morning cartoon, it's still "grimderp". If you dislike "grimderp", you pretty much dislike 40K.

Again, I think there is a difference between grimdark and grimderp.
For me, I explain the difference as "In Grimdark, the Imperium is only able to survive because the horrible things it does are the only things that work."
Grimderp would be "The Imperium does horrible things even though they would be able to survive in the same/better way by not doing them".

40k isn't grimderp - only parts of it are.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Worried me greatly that we have Primaris unit with exactly one gun option. Maybe these will be Ezy-2-Bild.

I don't know why you're mocking ETB. ETB has been around for decades, and recently, the models have been so good that they can stand next to a fully articulated one, and not look horrifically different.

I'm a MASSIVE fan of ETB. Genuinely, I think it's a massive improvement for the hobby. Not as a replacement of normal kits, certainly, but if these are the same as what we've seen with Dark Imperium (which did have ETB kits, and then released all those kits as full units with options later), what's the harm?

Asherian Command wrote:And yeah i lost my hope for them having a multipart kit this definately means its pushfit, which sucks for everyone involved here goes another six months before we get them out of those sprues. We are still waiting for them to give us options on intercessors, hellblasters, aggressors, and inceptors.... Helk we still don't have multipart kit for the primaris captains or their LTS.

You have options. You have a variety of weapon options for the Sergeants, grenade launchers, different bolt rifle types for Intercessors.
Hellblasters get different variants of Incinerator.
Aggressors have either bolt or flamer, but that's still an option.
Inceptors have largely the same as Aggressors. Sure, they're the most limiting, but compared to the most limiting of the standard SM units, is it so bad? Is it any different to Assault Terminators? Centurions?

And no, you absolutely do have multipart kits for the Captain. Two ranged options, helmet variants, and a right hand option - that's more than some previous Captain kits, and the kit itself is relatively simple to convert (the arms aren't even attached to the model!). I don't see how it's not classed as multipart.

The new lore seems rushed, and this stuff seems out of well.. stupidity. Don't they know space marines are the speartip in a formation? They never go in like in long lines their whole point is to destroy enemy leadership, supply, cripple morale, and strategic objectives.. it even says that in their codex.

Yes - and these are the speartip of the speartip.
Most modern armies are trained for combat like that now. However, you also have units trained to do that to a more advanced extent.

If you dislike this, then surely you must have disliked Scouts, which did exactly the same? Or units like the Thunderbolts, a 2nd Company Tactical Squad that specialized in recon actions for the 2nd Company? (as featured in the Assault on Black Reach novella and 5th Edition Codex).

Just because Marines in general fight in speartip formations (and even then, not all the time - the Battle Missions book outlines that Marines are a force multiplier, for use in both attack and defence), you can still have units that take this further and perform actions that normally equipped brethren could not.

They aren't looking at the lore are they just going crazy with this whole 'reimagining of space marines' which isn't really a reimagining its the same thing just a bigger model. They haven't developed anything 'new' for space marines. Want something new, give marines a walker or a vechile that is actually interesting and compelling as a plastic kit that doesn't look like gak or give marines their dedicated close combat units that emphasize the setting. So far we don't have any interesting lore with the primaris and I am not surprised, they aren't different, their lore has been subpar so far and there have only been three books on the primaris that are warrant any attention. Space Marine books and just books in general still use the same space marines.

Define new. I think Inceptors, as a shooting-focused jump pack unit is unlike anything else GW has given with the SM. Reivers, while in execution, lacklustre, are a new niche as terror troops. These Eliminators give us a heavy sniper unit, unlike the Scouts. Infiltrators are unique with their integrated medics.

And, stating the obvious, but I think that the new kits are perfectly compelling, look great, and have interesting lore. Your insights are your opinions, and while that's fine, I strongly disagree with them all.

They need to rethink their strategy for how they write their lore. If they want modern military tactics for marines, great that is a wonderful idea, but they are kind of aimless currently and abundantly obvious in each release that 'primaris are the best', in ever book they come off as pestilent children in adult setting. They don't act with the same fidelity and interest that other characters in the setting have and is woefully apparent in many of the books and campaign novels.

I disagree with all of this. I think they're just fine, and if GW carry on as they are, I'm happy with that.

WhiteDog wrote:The suppressor squad is all over the place : high mobility (why ? they don't seem to have jetpacks in the picture ?), fast attack with a high range heavy weapon, facilitate charge by removing overwatch, they have a smoke launcher like a tank ... I'm a little bit suprised. They're the first primaris unit with a weapon that has a range higher than 36 and they're fast attack ?
I think their future kit will have other load out option ? Who knows.

Fast Attack probably because they have high mobility, from the jump packs they do have (the picture isn't great, but they do have them).

They're FA in the same respect that Sentinels are Fast Attack - even though they have heavy weapons, they are mobile first and foremost.

Mymearan wrote:Feels like so much overlap between Primaris units. What's the point of Reivers now that you have Infiltrators? They shoot better, can also deep strike and are Troops!

Reivers have vertical mobility, generally seem to be built for that mobility (assault weapons and pistols), and have the terror troops aspect. Reivers could do with more emphasis on that, but they are distinct enough in my head to be different.

 Irbis wrote:
If GW put unrelated models into Spear videos it would be really not cool. IMO, I still can't see a 'campaign' box being full of push-fits when last 5 or 6 of them were multiparts, so I hope it's full sized kits. Especially seeing camplaign boxes are quickly discontinued and I can't see GW making moulds for that many units twice, but we'll see.

Unrelated model into a spear video, yes, you're right, they wouldn't do that. But some of these rumour engine previews don't have to be from the spear box and could well be from proper multi-part kits (or as "proper" as post-CHS GW gets these days).

I mean that last weapon looked like a champ upgrade Lightning Claw, and clearly the Chainaxe guy from Spear only has that, so it could be a champion upgrade form a proper new Chaos Marine kit.

As far as moulds go, well we did get 13 Ez-2-Bild Plague Marines before the full kit came out.

Suppressors I think will fill a few niches:

Beta strike firepower. Start off the table so you can’t be alpha stuck and die before you do anything. Drop down into your gunline and then act like a dev squad.

Fly. Can’t be tied up in CC. Harder to silence them with backfield harassing chaff units.

On tables with a lot of LoS blockers or other terrain issues, they let you get some real firepower in that can shoot from another angle. Mortar teams and light artillery might have a new foe.

How many points they are I think will make or break them. PL5 for 3 guys suggests a point value of around 100. For 3 guys with autocannons and some perks, that seems reasonable, at least for regular FLGS play.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
If GW put unrelated models into Spear videos it would be really not cool. IMO, I still can't see a 'campaign' box being full of push-fits when last 5 or 6 of them were multiparts, so I hope it's full sized kits. Especially seeing camplaign boxes are quickly discontinued and I can't see GW making moulds for that many units twice, but we'll see.

Unrelated model into a spear video, yes, you're right, they wouldn't do that. But some of these rumour engine previews don't have to be from the spear box and could well be from proper multi-part kits (or as "proper" as post-CHS GW gets these days).

I mean that last weapon looked like a champ upgrade Lightning Claw, and clearly the Chainaxe guy from Spear only has that, so it could be a champion upgrade form a proper new Chaos Marine kit.

As far as moulds go, well we did get 13 Ez-2-Bild Plague Marines before the full kit came out.

The CSM with meltagun was in the Spear video. So either there’s more options than the data sheet shows, or they did show an unrelated model in the Spear vid.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't know why you're mocking ETB.

I'm not.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't know why you're mocking ETB.

I'm not.

H.B.M.C wrote:Ezy-2-Bild

You sure?

I do not think these will be push fit. Firstly they said this box would be like the most recent ones, which were all full kits, Tooth and Claw had a full dread kit even though they could have slipped in a push fit.

We also haven't seen any push fit models since the start of 8th either. At the start there was a whole bunch. Where are the GSC push fit models?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't know why you're mocking ETB.

I'm not.

H.B.M.C wrote:Ezy-2-Bild

You sure?

Yep. 100%. You're reading way too much into something that's just not there. I'd give it a rest.

So I have a question. All the primaris seem to be getting a little better, points drops, bolter rules coming out...

Is CSM going to get access to them this year? Id like to see the sculpting alone for chaos themed Primaris.

Re the Chaos rules so far. The only thing I’m gutted about is the lack of imagination. I don’t care about waac or competitive games. However, it’s no fun to see leaks that show poor imagination. Master of Possession, just a sorcerer with a 5++? Is that it? Greater Possessed? 5 stats is nice but does he buff movement or let them run and charge or give Possessed d3+1 attacks or reroll hits and wounds?

I mean come on GW, some imagination would be nice!

Caveats - I pray to the dark gods that the leak is a snippet or missing some juicy bits to make these new models FUN to use as they are amazing sculpts.

Any previews expected today?