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I love how the guy with knife fighter doesn't have a combat knife but the other characters do.

 Kirasu wrote:
I love how the guy with knife fighter doesn't have a combat knife but the other characters do.

Well, it would obviously be completely OP if this S4, AP- guy would get both +1 attack and two hits on sixes!

 z3n1st wrote:
No one sees the issue with 3 units of 5 guys/10 wounds t4 3+ save that can essentially block all but the enemy deployment zone for deepstrike/reinforcements, for most likely less than 300pts...really?

Thats a force of about 400pts that offers up scoring Obsec units, denies deepstrike, and provides 5 CP

Min squad units of primaris haven't been an issue to sweep off the table before it shouldn't be an issue now.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 z3n1st wrote:
No one sees the issue with 3 units of 5 guys/10 wounds t4 3+ save that can essentially block all but the enemy deployment zone for deepstrike/reinforcements, for most likely less than 300pts...really?

Thats a force of about 400pts that offers up scoring Obsec units, denies deepstrike, and provides 5 CP

Min squad units of primaris haven't been an issue to sweep off the table before it shouldn't be an issue now.

Yeah, exactly. Primaris are not a threat to anyone who has actually played against a non-marine/csm army before. Almost every other codex is vastly more dangerous.

Malefic666 wrote:
Any other Chaos players totally bummed by the lacklustre leaks? If the rules I’ve seen are true this release seems more about creating a new keyword, ‘Daemonkin’ than Actually making Possessed work. They still suffer from a lack of an effective delivery mechanism outside of taking Dreadclaws from the Forgeworld book. I hope there’s a lot left to see because a few stronger Possessed with a few more wounds won’t see them on the tables and I have 20 Gal Vorbak I desperately want to use in a Black Legion list.

I mean....rhinos are just fine and they take up one spot. No one else gets 10 2W models into a rhino that I can think of. I just hope the sorcerer gets some buff/debuff spells.

Phobos librarian with tome of malcador is looking pretty solid (2 obscuration/1 librarius) - cant wait to see whats in the new psychic deck.

The number of different variant bolt weapons and inconsistency between naming convention and in game function is beginning to bug me though (i.e. there are now at least 4 different "bolt carbines" which can be assault/rapid/heavy and all with different special abilities).

rhinos are not just fine....70+ player event...not a single rhino in any list lol.....

They are way to many points for what you get esp when compared to what other armies can bring for the points.

An IG Chimera is way better now for almost same point cost- hauls more and has as ton more shots with higher STR/range/AP on about half the shots....yes a 3+ compared to 4+ BS, but with over twice as many shots even counting the new bolter rule the rhino is a piece of crap.

And....new psychic powers! Sweet!

When 8th came out I made myself a good sized "starter set" UltraMarine army using only ETB marines, spare bits, and a couple kits that I had laying around I had no other use for (Imperial Space Marine).

If these guys have decent points costs, I can definitely see use for the Suppressors, Eliminators, and Infiltrators.


I wonder how well Inceptors will mesh with Suppressors?

chaos45 wrote:
rhinos are not just fine....70+ player event...not a single rhino in any list lol.....

They are way to many points for what you get esp when compared to what other armies can bring for the points.

An IG Chimera is way better now for almost same point cost- hauls more and has as ton more shots with higher STR/range/AP on about half the shots....yes a 3+ compared to 4+ BS, but with over twice as many shots even counting the new bolter rule the rhino is a piece of crap.

Hauls a ton more T3 models. Woo.

You're right. That 7 points is just murder and totally makes a rhino incapable of carrying things.

What has Rhinos to do with this release?

From the leaks my initial good bad and ugly based on rules alone. Points costs could change this analysis easily as everything could change to bad or ugly if too much. .

Good:
Infiltrators: Troops choice with alternative deployment and a special ability that messes up deepstrikers.
Obliterators: Bigger and better. Hell they even have a CC weapon now (which makes me wonder the point of mutilators at all now).
Suppressors: FA is not a crowded slot and they can support CC armies preventing overwatch. Plus they are deepstriking heavy weapons which is a mobile option SM armies need.

Bad:
Captain and Lieutenant in phobos armor. Both of these are just worse version of their normal versions.
CSM: Still bad and cool new models (and they are cool) won't change that unfortunately.
Eliminators: Elite 1 shot snipers when they just put out the assassin update? Uh no. Plus they inexplicably put them in heavy support a very contested slot already.

Ugly:
Librarian in Phobos: Infiltrating psyker isn't a bad option regardless, but will likely depend on the psychic discipline.
Master of Possession: A slightly better sorc so nothing great but nothing bad.
Venomcrawler: Not a bad little demon engine putting out 2d3 krak missile shots at top bracket with some okay CC power. However, it also doesn't do anything particularly well which might make it a new defiler (which is not a compliment).
Greater possessed: Interesting elite character that, with the prevalence of demon engines in chaos, could be a good buff without needing a herald.

Since he's a sorcerer, I wonder if the Master of Possession will be available to the Thousand Sons?

I like the synergy the Greater Possessed has with the Venom Crawler. The GP boosts the strength of the Venom Crawler, and the VC's Excruciator cannons are based on the model's strength. That give is two Assault D3 lascannons. That's not totally great, but not bad at all.

 Crimson wrote:
What has Rhinos to do with this release?

Other than primaris can't ride in them??

Not a dang thing.


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 Kirasu wrote:
I love how the guy with knife fighter doesn't have a combat knife but the other characters do.

Someone didnt' read it (the gw team) I was perplexed to find that as well. It was confusing to say the least. And knife fighter is just... ugh give us that for power weapons too at least.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:
And....new psychic powers! Sweet!

Hope this means we are getting disciplines again.

Cause the current ones are really limiting for all races.


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 buddha wrote:
From the leaks my initial good bad and ugly based on rules alone. Points costs could change this analysis easily as everything could change to bad or ugly if too much. .

Good:
Infiltrators: Troops choice with alternative deployment and a special ability that messes up deepstrikers.
Obliterators: Bigger and better. Hell they even have a CC weapon now (which makes me wonder the point of mutilators at all now).
Suppressors: FA is not a crowded slot and they can support CC armies preventing overwatch. Plus they are deepstriking heavy weapons which is a mobile option SM armies need.

Bad:
Captain and Lieutenant in phobos armor. Both of these are just worse version of their normal versions.
CSM: Still bad and cool new models (and they are cool) won't change that unfortunately.
Eliminators: Elite 1 shot snipers when they just put out the assassin update? Uh no. Plus they inexplicably put them in heavy support a very contested slot already.

Ugly:
Librarian in Phobos: Infiltrating psyker isn't a bad option regardless, but will likely depend on the psychic discipline.
Master of Possession: A slightly better sorc so nothing great but nothing bad.
Venomcrawler: Not a bad little demon engine putting out 2d3 krak missile shots at top bracket with some okay CC power. However, it also doesn't do anything particularly well which might make it a new defiler (which is not a compliment).
Greater possessed: Interesting elite character that, with the prevalence of demon engines in chaos, could be a good buff without needing a herald.

Basically. LT and Captain are pretty terrible for what they do.

There needs to be something to make the CSM better and worth taking over cultists... but there won't be.

Eliminators on the other hand I think have potential. I would consider surpressors okayish, but they need a close combat team teamed up with them to maximize them.

You know why you don't see transports in the game now?

Because people didn't like the "first to finish deploying gets to go first" rule and demanded it be changed.

When a 70 point transport with a min sized troop squad and 5 characters lowers your drops by 5 it will suddenly seem worthwhile if it means you almost guarantee first turn.

Models are all gorgeous. From a collector/painter standpoint, they're a must-have.

The rules are all completely underwhelming. Points values could be lower than we're expecting, giving them a good boost, but I'm predicting that they'll be all overpriced because of the abilities they get. If they're well-priced, that could change a lot, but I'm not banking on it.

Also, these will be releasing around the same time that the next Big FAQ should be coming out. There could be a change in there that might make some of these more valuable than they seem on paper. We'll see.

 Crimson wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

My initial thoughts are this will be the "preset" loadout for the specific unit of CSMs fighting alongside the Master of Possession in that specific engagement, but will only be one available build of a multipart kit.

Past boxsets have had this, usually with named squad leaders.

Hmm... I guess it is possible. Let's hope you're right.

probably similar to what was in other boxed sets like death masque, where you had rules for the guys in the box with set loadouts, but they were the real multipart kits and if you had the codex they could be built however you liked.


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as an example, the eldar vs primaris box came with a wraithblades datasheet showing only swords, but it had the full wratihguard/wraithblade kit inside.

Well they weren't about to make a totally new one-weapon-option Wraithguard kit for a box like that, were they?

drbored wrote:
Models are all gorgeous. From a collector/painter standpoint, they're a must-have.

The rules are all completely underwhelming. Points values could be lower than we're expecting, giving them a good boost, but I'm predicting that they'll be all overpriced because of the abilities they get. If they're well-priced, that could change a lot, but I'm not banking on it.

Also, these will be releasing around the same time that the next Big FAQ should be coming out. There could be a change in there that might make some of these more valuable than they seem on paper. We'll see.

I'm reaaaally hoping the venom whatever isn't 140 points with that loadout and that the PL is just considering future options.


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 Asherian Command wrote:


Hope this means we are getting disciplines again.

Ooooh...marines are getting Obscuration. Neat. I wonder if Invisibility will come back.

Infiltrators I think have a nice spot going forward. Their anti deepstrike utility is a BIG deal and really hurts deepstrikers by pushing back shooting units and outright stopping any chance of deepstriking charges. Their squad medic is nice as he can give the squad just a little bit more juice when they need it and their smoke grenade says in the shooting phase not in your shooting phase so it can be used in the enemies turn which is a BIG advantage for them.

A nice forward screen of them on T1 and T2 really locks down deepstrikers, buy some board control and they are pretty durable with the -1 to hit even without factoring in raven guard synergy for a -2.

The snipers I think are going to be pretty good when paired with a vindicare assassin as they can finish off wounded targets and always be a threat to enemy characters.

The deepstriking heavy weapons guys are pretty solid. Same smoke grenade options as the infiltrators which is nice. Their damage output is alright at s7 ap-2 2 damage with 2 shots. They are not amazing anti tank by any stretch, but if their points are right I can see them getting some good use.

How do people think the actual boxset itself balances out against each other?

EDIT: I guess it sort of depends on how many Greater Possessed and Obliterators are included.

I just started to build Possessed from the Blightkings box. The only thing I'm wondering now is what do I take as even bigger Possessed to represent the Greater one . His rules look impressive, you don't need to ally Daemons in anymore to get that sweet +1 S. I just hope Death Guard gets access to this. Overall the rules look very solid on the Chaos side. Good to see Obliterators go back to 1-3 models, will definitely make me use them more often again.

Looking at my Deathwatch list I'd be looking at swapping out 5 intercessors for the funky new infiltrators to give them a go and also may drop 5 hellblasters for the suppressors for a bit of long range firepower the.

Excited for this release, if there is a new chaos terminator set I'm wanting to do an elite iron warriors army with 2 squads of terminators and some Daemon engines.

Looking at the units, I think the Suppressors do fill a niche in a pure Primaris force ie light tank and transport killing.

However, they seem to work best just set up from the start in the backfield with a cheap Captain or Lt babysitting them. Basically Devastators with autocannon. Their deepstrike shenanigans coupled with Heavy Weapons is just a strange design decision.

Banville wrote:
Looking at the units, I think the Suppressors do fill a niche in a pure Primaris force ie light tank and transport killing.

However, they seem to work best just set up from the start in the backfield with a cheap Captain or Lt babysitting them. Basically Devastators with autocannon. Their deepstrike shenanigans coupled with Heavy Weapons is just a strange design decision.

we really need a inceptor captain.

Really love the new models, although I'm impatient to see the Suppressors and Infiltrators. Rules-wise the Suppressors look good to me even though it's a strange mix of rules. But nothing prevents you from setting them normally in your DZ where they should be imo. Playing DA that means they'll reroll their 1s to Hit, manage a kill in a unit my DW Knights want to charge, and bingo they're useful.

The Librarian can be very interesting, I suppose his powers will be rather close-ranged and mainly buffs/debuffs. If he costs less than a Jump Pack Librarian and the powers are good I'll definitely add him.

Can't wait to see the point costs of everything.

Having now read the datacards, must admit - this looks like a flop. Don't get me wrong, points would be the ultimate decider but if they are in line with existing units - it'll be a box set of "meh" for me.

CSM - a set loadout mixed between assault and shoot - meaning push-fit models and no customisation. Still unsure why to take these over cultists.
Marines - nothing particularly stand out for Primaris that normal Marines don't do better for the points. Still no assault option, still no good fast attack option and still not worth the points (assumption based on current range)
Greater Posessed - assault only character and missed opportunity for GW to recreate the old Posessed range and buff them to a Primaris style model.
Giant Spider walker thing, still hitting on a 4+ with 2D3 shots. Might as well take a helbrute

We already know that there are other releases to follow this boxed set. Considering the theme of this Chaos expansion is 'possession' it would be odd that if that only extended to two new characters. I definitely wouldn't rule out more Possessed-themed units plus expanded datasheets for some of these units alongside their multi-part kit later.

 xttz wrote:
We already know that there are other releases to follow this boxed set. Considering the theme of this Chaos expansion is 'possession' it would be odd that if that only extended to two new characters. I definitely wouldn't rule out more Possessed-themed units plus expanded datasheets for some of these units alongside their multi-part kit later.

Stop making sense this is a place for knee jerking and complaints about how bad 40k is