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Why are people freaking out about this?

 Asherian Command wrote:

Yup, because they always operate with others and totally not undertake 95% of missions on their own

Have you ever read any of the deathwatch lore? They are a kill team. Not mass army deployment, they deploy with others when they need strength.

Deathwatch are far too spread out, they operate at most at squads of 5 members, sometimes on rare ocassion 10. This has not changed at all since any edition, even in their current codex. They only deploy at least 30 marines on very rare ocassions. If we want marines to be good overall we get rid of deathwatch because it is damaging the pool for space marine armies.

There is no reason currently or competitively not to take deathwatch over a normal squad other than points. Deathwatch intercessors have a -1 ap in edition to their damage they already deal.

It currently destroys any competitiveness that the other armies can have, until then get rid of them and just make an elite choice, and then they will be fine. They should never have been a solo army, exactly like the tempestus scions, who I agree should not have had their solo codex.

An interesting opinion on balance. Tell me, are you aware the best mono marine list at LVO had 0 deathwatch and finished top 8? Why at an event where people are trying to build the best list they can did this player choose not to bring DW in a mono marine list? Clearly he isn't a bad player, but I am sure you can explain why a competent player chose to not play the superior marine faction.

Lots of assumptions on you lot.

But okay back ontopic!

I hope we get some info tomorrow of the Black Legion and what else we are getting. If we get a new defiler that would be pretty cool to see a reimagining considering how much better the black legion models look compared to the primaris models overall.

I think I am more excited about chopping space marines for the warmaster than actually having some of those supressors.

Well, personally I am a bit tired of DW getting about 40% offence buff for one point per model. If you balance marines around SIA, then ones without it will suck. Granted, Guilliman produces exactly similar issue.

Sterling191 wrote:
Ah hysteria that Deathwatch might get something nice. Good times.

So you want one unit to have access to 6 different types of ammunition for what reason? Its stupid, and insane. Because it makes not a lick of sense, they already have those ammo options why do they need more? Why would you make a unit that is already great, have so many options? I don't think anyone is carrying six different ammunition types on their body. It doesn't make any sense for the Deathwatch to get them in their current form, yeah they will be a deathwatch unit eventually but it would be pretty stupid to give them six options right off the bat. Deathwatch is already on the 'watch list' for myriads of reasons. And the better marines get as a whole the better the entire deathwatch codex becomes.

Infiltrators, on the other hand, becoming deathwatch is just weird because what you could do is just take 1 infiltrator per a squad and then you just prevent players from appearing anywhere on the board with deep strike. People in this thread already feared what space marines could do with infiltrators, but imagine deathwatch spammings single mixed units that prevent you from just outright deploying. It is stupid as is and I can see rampant abuse from its setup.

Deathwatch is not competitive along with all marine armies. Saying one marine army got onto the LVO was because of the same build as before is not surprising. Given time, we will see scale creep every single marine release as deathwatch are quite inexpensive, given time they will be the best marine army. It is inevitable given their rules. That is not fear mongering or hysteria, its just realism to what could happen. Hysteria implies I'm being illogical about it, I played deathwatch quite a bit and got disgusted how effective they are for just 1 pt increase. Yeah you don't see them in LVO or tournaments but once you can run them as all deathwatch ultramarines with a bobby G and a knight titan, and some 32, its gets disgusting especially once you start spamming storm shields on everyone.

'Hysteria' or soothsaying is not what I would go with as that implies illogical rationale.

For the chaos units in this, I hope they include something else for the chaos space marines, the psychic rules and all that seem interesting, but my biggest hope is that there are new warlord traits specific for units so you could theme an army around a warlord. As i hope you could do that with all armies included. Like maybe getting bikes as a troop choice? Or raptors as a troop choice? Or maybe giving them some type of tactic across the entire detachment that warlord is in (and has the same faction keyword) in addition to legion / chapter rules / craftworld rules. (now that is day dreaming gotta stop)

 NAVARRO wrote:
Does anyone knows how many points per faction in the box?

The Primaris part is 36 PL and the CSM part is 41 PL.

Make of that what you will.

Seems we get another reveal of some kind tomorrow. Around 16:00, UK time.

Which is exactly when I clock off at work!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Seems we get another reveal of some kind tomorrow. Around 16:00, UK time.

It's Abaddon.

Bloody hope so.

And all the other stuff we saw as rumours the other week.

 Crimson wrote:
Well, personally I am a bit tired of DW getting about 40% offence buff for one point per model. If you balance marines around SIA, then ones without it will suck. Granted, Guilliman produces exactly similar issue.

At a 20% reduction of your total army (GMAN IS 400 points and IS NOT an HQ so you still have to buy HQ). Plus compare DW buffed by a Watch captain and a the reroll 1's to wound trait. They outperform similar points of ultra marines intercessors under guilliman buff. So in other words - DW get Guilliman buff FOR FREE. It's freaking disgusting how bad space marines are. That DW can be this good compared to space marines but DW don't dominate the competitive scene. It really goes to show you how far behind this army is.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Seems we get another reveal of some kind tomorrow. Around 16:00, UK time.

Which is exactly when I clock off at work!

It's something to do with Vigilus, as the 80 days is up tomorrow.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, personally I am a bit tired of DW getting about 40% offence buff for one point per model. If you balance marines around SIA, then ones without it will suck. Granted, Guilliman produces exactly similar issue.

At a 20% reduction of your total army (GMAN IS 400 points and IS NOT an HQ so you still have to buy HQ). Plus compare DW buffed by a Watch captain and a the reroll 1's to wound trait. They outperform similar points of ultra marines intercessors under guilliman buff. So in other words - DW get Guilliman buff FOR FREE. It's freaking disgusting how bad space marines are. That DW can be this good compared to space marines but DW don't dominate the competitive scene. It really goes to show you how far behind this army is.

Yeah, you're not wrong...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Bloody hope so.

And all the other stuff we saw as rumours the other week.

I wouldn’t expect all of that. I’m just expecting Abaddon tomorrow, which honestly is more than enough for me. I don’t mind waiting a bit for the rest.

I look forward to the new primaris models for my alpha legion.

I just hope Worldbreaker or whatever his name is finds his spear. It's been stuck in the ground for 80 days!!! Poor guy.

To be fair, he wanged it in there. So he’s only himself to blame if he can’t remember where that was.

Unless he’s just sort of stood around like a Lemon, checking his watch.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I just hope Worldbreaker or whatever his name is finds his spear. It's been stuck in the ground for 80 days!!! Poor guy.

He still has his lightning claw. And his bolt pistol...oh wait.

In other news, what are people expecting for additional loadouts for these squads when they come out?

Perhaps GW will actually give Primaris some Anti-Tank and give the Eliminators something like a Lascannon or Missile Launcher. That would be nuts, but also sort of appropriate. They focus on high-value targets.

I don't see the Suppressors getting an Onslaught Cannon as that would basically make them the same thing as the Assault Bolter Inceptors, but with T4 and Heavy instead of Assault. So they might be a place where a Laser weapon might be appropriate. But that wouldn't really mesh with their Suppressive Fire special rule. Honestly, a close combat weapon and a multi-shot weapon would be good for them with their rules. Give them a Power Lance and a Storm Bolter and let them go to work.

Infiltrators are likely going to get non-MC versions of the two Bolt Carbines the Captain and Lieutenant have.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, personally I am a bit tired of DW getting about 40% offence buff for one point per model. If you balance marines around SIA, then ones without it will suck. Granted, Guilliman produces exactly similar issue.

At a 20% reduction of your total army (GMAN IS 400 points and IS NOT an HQ so you still have to buy HQ). Plus compare DW buffed by a Watch captain and a the reroll 1's to wound trait. They outperform similar points of ultra marines intercessors under guilliman buff. So in other words - DW get Guilliman buff FOR FREE. It's freaking disgusting how bad space marines are. That DW can be this good compared to space marines but DW don't dominate the competitive scene. It really goes to show you how far behind this army is.

Reroll 1s to wound vs a specific part of the army that costs CP to change.

A chapter master or high level UM character like Calgar gives full rerolls to hit. A lieutenant gives reroll 1s to wound.

According to Jes, the Reivers were very popular, and it is probably because they have big knives.

He also mentions that they designed all these different kinds of Primaris in different styles of armor (and presumably more besides) from the very beginning, before certain ones were chosen for the first wave.

JUST Abaddon seems a bit.. odd, my bet is it'll be "Abbaddon.. and some toher stuff"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Vox cast ep about Shadow Spear with a focus on the Vanguard side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSs6Wx9_haA

I could listen to Jes talk about his work like this all day Cant wait to see what else he has cooked up for the Primaris line.

around the 16-17 minute mark it sounds like they confirm my "all primaris are cross trained" theory

BrianDavion wrote:
JUST Abaddon seems a bit.. odd, my bet is it'll be "Abbaddon.. and some toher stuff"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Vox cast ep about Shadow Spear with a focus on the Vanguard side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSs6Wx9_haA

I could listen to Jes talk about his work like this all day Cant wait to see what else he has cooked up for the Primaris line.

around the 16-17 minute mark it sounds like they confirm my "all primaris are cross trained" theory

Your theory? All Marines have always been cross trained in every other job. The issue is that primaris only have a single weapon option usually which is why people complain about their units.

BrianDavion wrote:
JUST Abaddon seems a bit.. odd, my bet is it'll be "Abbaddon.. and some toher stuff"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Vox cast ep about Shadow Spear with a focus on the Vanguard side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSs6Wx9_haA

I could listen to Jes talk about his work like this all day Cant wait to see what else he has cooked up for the Primaris line.

around the 16-17 minute mark it sounds like they confirm my "all primaris are cross trained" theory

I can't see why they wouldn't be. All Marines are cross-trained into the different units in the Army. Every Tactical Marine has been an Assault Marine or Devastator before, and likely engaged in combat using one of their variation units (Assault or Devastator Centurions, Landspeeder Pilot or Gunner, Biker, etc).

Primaris being able to do the same isn't exactly a surprise.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
JUST Abaddon seems a bit.. odd, my bet is it'll be "Abbaddon.. and some toher stuff"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Vox cast ep about Shadow Spear with a focus on the Vanguard side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSs6Wx9_haA

I could listen to Jes talk about his work like this all day Cant wait to see what else he has cooked up for the Primaris line.

around the 16-17 minute mark it sounds like they confirm my "all primaris are cross trained" theory

I can't see why they wouldn't be. All Marines are cross-trained into the different units in the Army. Every Tactical Marine has been an Assault Marine or Devastator before, and likely engaged in combat using one of their variation units (Assault or Devastator Centurions, Landspeeder Pilot or Gunner, Biker, etc).

Primaris being able to do the same isn't exactly a surprise.

ohh I agree. it's not a suprise it's just nice to know for sure that a man who works as a intercessor today could be deployed as an inceptor tomorrow. explains how those vanguard units fit into the 2nd companies deployment table.

BrianDavion wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
JUST Abaddon seems a bit.. odd, my bet is it'll be "Abbaddon.. and some toher stuff"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Vox cast ep about Shadow Spear with a focus on the Vanguard side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSs6Wx9_haA

I could listen to Jes talk about his work like this all day Cant wait to see what else he has cooked up for the Primaris line.

around the 16-17 minute mark it sounds like they confirm my "all primaris are cross trained" theory

I can't see why they wouldn't be. All Marines are cross-trained into the different units in the Army. Every Tactical Marine has been an Assault Marine or Devastator before, and likely engaged in combat using one of their variation units (Assault or Devastator Centurions, Landspeeder Pilot or Gunner, Biker, etc).

Primaris being able to do the same isn't exactly a surprise.

ohh I agree. it's not a suprise it's just nice to know for sure that a man who works as a intercessor today could be deployed as an inceptor tomorrow. explains how those vanguard units fit into the 2nd companies deployment table.

Oh for sure. It also makes the fact I am likely going to swap out three Intercessor Squads for Infiltrator Squads not all that crazy. Same goes for me likely removing a Hellblaster Squad to make room for some Eliminators. It's all the same guys, just different weapons and armor for this battle.

I don't understand why normal Marine players aren't using the Deathwatch codex anyway, my army is crimson fists but I use the the Deathwatch codex and just say they are xenos fighting experts... Makes sense to me! Ive planned on buying this for a long time but I need to know if Deathwatch can take the new stuff or I may have to skip them for a bit.

Because some people like playing their army rather than 'Counts As'.




Anyway, back to Shadow Spear and it's related products: Maybe we'll be lucky and the real Supressor kit will allow them to be placed on the ground rather than floating around like idiots.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
I don't understand why normal Marine players aren't using the Deathwatch codex anyway, my army is crimson fists but I use the the Deathwatch codex and just say they are xenos fighting experts... Makes sense to me! Ive planned on buying this for a long time but I need to know if Deathwatch can take the new stuff or I may have to skip them for a bit.

Because I don't want to? Because I like my Chapter Tactics (Crimson Fists, BTW), relics, Warlord Traits, and all the myriad ways I can play my Army using the codex? My local meta is geared toward strong, but not WAAC. The Loyal 32 isn't a common sight here, for example. People lean more towards single codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because some people like playing their army rather than 'Counts As'.




Anyway, back to Shadow Spear and it's related products: Maybe we'll be lucky and the real Supressor kit will allow them to be placed on the ground rather than floating around like idiots.

I think the two regular dudes will look fine on the ground. The Sergeant will need some creative basing. I am interested in the different weapon options though. I hope they actually DON'T get the Onslaught Gatling, since it would make them Worse Inceptors.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Ah hysteria that Deathwatch might get something nice. Good times.

So you want one unit to have access to 6 different types of ammunition for what reason? Its stupid, and insane. Because it makes not a lick of sense, they already have those ammo options why do they need more? Why would you make a unit that is already great, have so many options? I don't think anyone is carrying six different ammunition types on their body. It doesn't make any sense for the Deathwatch to get them in their current form, yeah they will be a deathwatch unit eventually but it would be pretty stupid to give them six options right off the bat. Deathwatch is already on the 'watch list' for myriads of reasons. And the better marines get as a whole the better the entire deathwatch codex becomes.

Infiltrators, on the other hand, becoming deathwatch is just weird because what you could do is just take 1 infiltrator per a squad and then you just prevent players from appearing anywhere on the board with deep strike. People in this thread already feared what space marines could do with infiltrators, but imagine deathwatch spammings single mixed units that prevent you from just outright deploying. It is stupid as is and I can see rampant abuse from its setup.

Deathwatch is not competitive along with all marine armies. Saying one marine army got onto the LVO was because of the same build as before is not surprising. Given time, we will see scale creep every single marine release as deathwatch are quite inexpensive, given time they will be the best marine army. It is inevitable given their rules. That is not fear mongering or hysteria, its just realism to what could happen. Hysteria implies I'm being illogical about it, I played deathwatch quite a bit and got disgusted how effective they are for just 1 pt increase. Yeah you don't see them in LVO or tournaments but once you can run them as all deathwatch ultramarines with a bobby G and a knight titan, and some 32, its gets disgusting especially once you start spamming storm shields on everyone.

'Hysteria' or soothsaying is not what I would go with as that implies illogical rationale.

For the chaos units in this, I hope they include something else for the chaos space marines, the psychic rules and all that seem interesting, but my biggest hope is that there are new warlord traits specific for units so you could theme an army around a warlord. As i hope you could do that with all armies included. Like maybe getting bikes as a troop choice? Or raptors as a troop choice? Or maybe giving them some type of tactic across the entire detachment that warlord is in (and has the same faction keyword) in addition to legion / chapter rules / craftworld rules. (now that is day dreaming gotta stop)

1. Nobody but you in this thread "feared" what Marines could do with these Infiltrators.
2. Deathwatch Vets are actually 2 points more, because they pay for their Bolter along with whatever else you have them.
3. Most people haven't defended 2 point Storm Shields, but keep in mind these are at minimum 17 point models that will basically die as quick as regular Marines to anything AP0 or 1.
4. The issue is with codex Marines, not Deathwatch.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
I don't understand why normal Marine players aren't using the Deathwatch codex anyway, my army is crimson fists but I use the the Deathwatch codex and just say they are xenos fighting experts...

That you feel that you need to do that should make it abundantly clear that there's a balance issue.

 Crimson wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
I don't understand why normal Marine players aren't using the Deathwatch codex anyway, my army is crimson fists but I use the the Deathwatch codex and just say they are xenos fighting experts...

That you feel that you need to do that should make it abundantly clear that there's a balance issue.

Seconded, if you are forced to switch to another related army because of the rules then something is wrong.