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 Crimson wrote:
So I saw these supposed leaked point costs. I have no idea if they're real, I kinda hope not...

CSM 13
GP 70
MoP 90
Oblit 115
Venom 130

Autocannon 10
Plasmas Gun 11
Plasma Pistol 5

GP at 70 pts... That is near exalted Champion level.
The Venom seems meh,
MoP at 90 is good, no argueing there,
Oblits well that was it, oblits dead again.

blaktoof wrote:
anyone that thought infiltrators wouldn't cost multiple points more than intercessors was smoking crack.

They have the same statline, a better gun (auto wound on unmod 6s to hit), special deployment rules aka scouts, can deny DS built in, and have an upgrade that lets them heal and restore slain models, oh and 1 use smoke grenades.

Obviously they are going to cost more points than intercessors.

The infiltrators' weapon is not better, is different

I'm expecting 18-19 points infiltrators, 22-25 points eliminators and 35-37 points suppressors

PiñaColada wrote:
I was convinced (admittedly based on nothing but a hunch) that infiltrators would be 19 points each. 22 is a bit too steep unless they also get some real nifty unique strats.

Eliminatos and suppressors are priced correctly though.

The venomcrawler is probably 15 points overcosted and the obliterators maybe 10 points over?

Yeah 33 points for a Suppressor seems very good to me, and 24 for the Eliminator is decent - though i can also see the point of spending the 72-216 points on something other than Eliminators.

The eliminators are 21 points per model total. 18+3

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
So I saw these supposed leaked point costs. I have no idea if they're real, I kinda hope not...

CSM 13
GP 70
MoP 90
Oblit 115
Venom 130

Autocannon 10
Plasmas Gun 11
Plasma Pistol 5

GP at 70 pts... That is near exalted Champion level.
The Venom seems meh,
MoP at 90 is good, no argueing there,
Oblits well that was it, oblits dead again.

Oblits is just a sidegrade i believe. Essentially 2 is the same cost as 3 old ones, but with the same shots and better stats. I can see people running a squad or 2 of 2 still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
The eliminators are 21 points per model total. 18+3

Camo cloak will also be another 3 points though.

Kdash wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
The eliminators are 21 points per model total. 18+3

Camo cloak will also be another 3 points though.

Ooof, then I'm not sure if I like them. They're still pretty good I guess, especially depending on matchup.

24 points runs them dangerously close to having to compete with a vindicare which I don't think they can do. A scout with a sniper is 13 so two of them is 26. For about the same cost you get one less shot, but it's higher quality and on a model that is far more durable with a superior armor save and two wounds which has it's pros and cons compared to two wounds being spread out across multiple bodies. Big point in the scout's favor however is the fact that they are troops.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
24 points runs them dangerously close to having to compete with a vindicare which I don't think they can do. A scout with a sniper is 13 so two of them is 26. For about the same cost you get one less shot, but it's higher quality and on a model that is far more durable with a superior armor save and two wounds which has it's pros and cons compared to two wounds being spread out across multiple bodies. Big point in the scout's favor however is the fact that they are troops.

I agree. I was thinking about running 2 squads of them at around 60-65 points, but that extra 12 points somehow just feels bad

Hopefully there will be some good reviews posted first thing saturday.

New units in box sets are always expensive, then they come down in the new codex.

This also assumes they pay for the camo cloak. They very easily could have that baked into their point cost for purposes of the Shadowspear points.

 axisofentropy wrote:
New units in box sets are always expensive, then they come down in the new codex.

Which may or may not happen in this case. Why else would they have mini-dexes in the box set?
It's unlikely the new units will get any points changes until the next Chapter Approved.

ShaneMarsh wrote:
This also assumes they pay for the camo cloak. They very easily could have that baked into their point cost for purposes of the Shadowspear points.

If camo cloaks were just an ability on the datasheet, this might be likely. But they are specifically listing in their equipment/wargear list. So they are very likely to cost points, assuming the same as Scouts

-

I'd love to see some math on the eliminators against characters if anyone is good at that sort of thing. My really rough estimates indicate you would need 6 to have a decent chance of taking out a standard infantry type character due to the limitations of s4.

 Galef wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
New units in box sets are always expensive, then they come down in the new codex.

Which may or may not happen in this case. Why else would they have mini-dexes in the box set?
It's unlikely the new units will get any points changes until the next Chapter Approved.

except you've been demonstrativly proven wrong.

The last time we got new SM units in a mini dex was in dark Imperium

Cost of an intercessor squad in the dark Imperium Mini-dex: 22 PPM
Cost of an intercessor squad in codex space marines 20 PPM

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I'd love to see some math on the eliminators against characters if anyone is good at that sort of thing. My really rough estimates indicate you would need 6 to have a decent chance of taking out a standard infantry type character due to the limitations of s4.

Yeah, I'd also like to see the comparison between 3 Eliminators vs 1 Vindicare

BrianDavion wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
New units in box sets are always expensive, then they come down in the new codex.

Which may or may not happen in this case. Why else would they have mini-dexes in the box set?
It's unlikely the new units will get any points changes until the next Chapter Approved.

except you've been demonstrativly proven wrong.

The last time we got new SM units in a mini dex was in dark Imperium

Cost of an intercessor squad in the dark Imperium Mini-dex: 22 PPM
Cost of an intercessor squad in codex space marines 20 PPM

True, but DI was released before the Codex. What you are suggesting (and may be true) is that in order for Shadowspear to follow the same tread as DI, Space Marine and CSM codices are 100% on the way.
I can certainly see this being true for CSMs given all the new stuff GW has on the pipeline, but the Vanguard Marines feel more like one-off additions, rather than indication of a new 'Dex on the way

I'd be happy to be wrong, Marines need the help, but it just doesn't "feel" like it will be the same as DI

-

Eliminators, and any other sniper unit, can't really ever compete with the Vindicare on sniping because the Vindicare has a shoot twice strat. Their use will mainly be if you want more snipers beyond a Vindicare. But then, why not scouts? They are troops at least.

Venomcrawler at 130 is DOA. The current Daemon engines are already not worth using. Venom needs to be ~100, and the defiler and fiends need to drop 10-15pts each. They are currently priced as if they had WS/BS 3+.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I'd love to see some math on the eliminators against characters if anyone is good at that sort of thing. My really rough estimates indicate you would need 6 to have a decent chance of taking out a standard infantry type character due to the limitations of s4.

It’s also their threat quotient,

As a GSC player, these guys are a bit thorny for me. Whilst far from insta-gib, they’re threat enough that I’ll want to be quite careful with where I deploy my characters, and how I then move them around.

For my strategy, that could be a problem. I’m leaning heavily into character assassination myself. If your investment and deployment of Eliminators is decent, you can seriously hamper my own plan - whether or not they wind up killing anything of real note.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I'd love to see some math on the eliminators against characters if anyone is good at that sort of thing. My really rough estimates indicate you would need 6 to have a decent chance of taking out a standard infantry type character due to the limitations of s4.

depends what character you're going for I suppose.

there's a big differance in sniping down say... a deamon prince with T 6 and 8 wounds, vs say... a chaos sorcrerer.


I think the real intreasting thing will be if the executioner round or the hyperfrag round is deemed "better" and that'd be a useful bit of mathhammer to see

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Eliminators, and any other sniper unit, can't really ever compete with the Vindicare on sniping because the Vindicare has a shoot twice strat. Their use will mainly be if you want more snipers beyond a Vindicare. But then, why not scouts? They are troops at least.

Yeah, this is why my likely plan is to get 1 set of Eliminators to either be Scout Sgts, or Vindicare-counts-as
Full power armour Snipers just look cool to me

-

IF the points are true and thats a big IF, then kinda meh on the box set as a whole.
Primaris side - 110 for a captain with a mediocre gun, and the scrambler. Feels like they are pricing the scrambler around 15-20. Seems pretty steep for it, if GSC is prominent maybe he sees the table.
Libby seems good because the powers are good

Elims will find a home in some lists for others they will pass, 3 man squad for 63 points, seems like they would pretty easily get their points back, while fulfilling scouts DS blocking role.

Infiltrators, unless your meta is huge on GSC I think these have priced themselves out of use they should have been about 20 considering an intercessors is 17 since its arguably a worse weapon, you are paying that plus 25 points for the scrambler, not impressed,

Suppressors @ 33 ppm seem reasonable, neither over nor undercosted so serviceable for normal games, unsure this is enough to let them see the table in a tournament setting though as the question remains why not just ally in something better.

Chaos side
MoP seems good because the powers are good
Oblits, for 115 ppm feel like they should have 5-6 wounds they are around broadside power level?
Venom @ 130 seems like people don't like it, I don't thin it is that bad, Wound have priced it around 110-120 personally but I think its usable, 2d3 krak missiles if nothing else, and its going to draw shots from other units due to them needing to profile it quickly. With self healing and repairs that is harder to do than it appears.
GP little more than expected but in that it seems able to take on a captain in combat, maybe its ok?

My personal opinion is that Eliminators will become a tournament staple. I don't see why they wouldn't. I don't see how they're not broken as hell vs. several armies.

-Best sniper rifle of any sniper in the game (sans Vindicare perhaps) So characters inside line of sight are in serious trouble.
-If you're out of line of sight, still hitting you on 2+ (even if you're Alaitoc, or if the Eliminator moved, etc.)
-Sure it's only Strength 4, -1 save...but that will absolutely crush Guard characters, Eldar characters (who mostly have a 4+ invuln)
-Potentially benefits from stratagems which assist Bolt type weapons
-Can infiltrate so they'll be within 36" of more or less - all of your opponents characters.
-Decently hard to kill and hard to shift.
-Can double up with deepstrike denying units so they can't be charged by counter-deepstriking units.
-Potentially nine shots of 2+ shooting will more or less guarantee one dead character a turn, perhaps a bit more.
-Unfortunately possible the unit size may be 5-6 models when shown in a proper codex (this will more or less compound the issues I'm already seeing)
-Shooting characters outside of line of sight for free - no use of stratagems, no cost in CP, etc.

You don't have much to worry about if you're a tough character with 2+ armour, etc....but for Eldar, Guard, Ork, Cult, etc. characters this will be a massive deal (in my opinion).

It unfortunately smacks to me of exceptionally lazy and gakky game design. It more or less removes any involvement from the target player "Oh I just hit you on 2+ and you can't do anything about it...sorry". This isn't a fun or a cool unit, it's a devastating unit which I think will become a serious Marine staple.

 Elbows wrote:
My personal opinion is that Eliminators will become a tournament staple. I don't see why they wouldn't. I don't see how they're not broken as hell vs. several armies.

-Best sniper rifle of any sniper in the game (sans Vindicare perhaps) So characters inside line of sight are in serious trouble.
-If you're out of line of sight, still hitting you on 2+ (even if you're Alaitoc, or if the Eliminator moved, etc.)
-Sure it's only Strength 4, -1 save...but that will absolutely crush Guard characters, Eldar characters (who mostly have a 4+ invuln)
-Potentially benefits from stratagems which assist Bolt type weapons
-Can infiltrate so they'll be within 36" of more or less - all of your opponents characters.
-Decently hard to kill and hard to shift.
-Can double up with deepstrike denying units so they can't be charged by counter-deepstriking units.
-Potentially nine shots of 2+ shooting will more or less guarantee one dead character a turn, perhaps a bit more.
-Unfortunately possible the unit size may be 5-6 models when shown in a proper codex (this will more or less compound the issues I'm already seeing)
-Shooting characters outside of line of sight for free - no use of stratagems, no cost in CP, etc.

You don't have much to worry about if you're a tough character with 2+ armour, etc....but for Eldar, Guard, Ork, Cult, etc. characters this will be a massive deal (in my opinion).

It unfortunately smacks to me of exceptionally lazy and gakky game design. It more or less removes any involvement from the target player "Oh I just hit you on 2+ and you can't do anything about it...sorry". This isn't a fun or a cool unit, it's a devastating unit which I think will become a serious Marine staple.

9, on average, won't kill a company commander even with a captain to re-roll 1's. (when hitting on 2+) Just about do it with a Lieutenant as well though.

So... I may have missed it: has there been any word on Deathwatch inclusion of the new dudes?

For my perspective, they’re threat enough to my GSC to be on the receiving end of a Manticore or two in the first turn!

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Venomcrawler at 130 is DOA. The current Daemon engines are already not worth using. Venom needs to be ~100, and the defiler and fiends need to drop 10-15pts each. They are currently priced as if they had WS/BS 3+.

4+ to hit sucks, and I say that having dusted off my defiler the other day to see if the lower points means he's good now. He did essentially nothing but be a huge dumb target as he scuttled forward shooting his guns in the air and then whiffing in combat before getting finished off That 4+ to hit without auto-hit weapons means I guess I'll paint mine for completion ... or finally finish off my heldrake instead.

Also 115 a pop for oblits?? I said before checking on the buffs to the old toddler oblits:

+1T +1W +4 shots
+1S -1AP D3 damage in combat

More significant than I realized!

Elbows wrote:My personal opinion is that Eliminators will become a tournament staple. I don't see why they wouldn't. I don't see how they're not broken as hell vs. several armies.
...
It unfortunately smacks to me of exceptionally lazy and gakky game design. It more or less removes any involvement from the target player "Oh I just hit you on 2+ and you can't do anything about it...sorry". This isn't a fun or a cool unit, it's a devastating unit which I think will become a serious Marine staple.

Buddy I'm splitting the box with has been frothing throughout the afternoon about how many eliminators he's gonna be getting and how he's making a full spearhead of them Khorne Daemons I'm painting currently don't particularly care, but I guess bye-bye heralds, unless character invisibility still saves them somehow?

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
. The current Daemon engines are already not worth using. Venom needs to be ~100, and the defiler and fiends need to drop 10-15pts each. They are currently priced as if they had WS/BS 3+.

No way. The defiler is not in a bad spot.

Defiler is 98 points (minus the BC at BS4). That's 14 wounds with a 5++ and a heal. A helbrute is 90 points and 8 wounds for 4 weaker attacks that have -1 to hit unlike the Defiler. You can stick a TLC on a helbrute, but you could also put that on a defiler and reroll hits AND wounds, which is pretty big for lascannon shots not to mention also effecting the BC.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
. The current Daemon engines are already not worth using. Venom needs to be ~100, and the defiler and fiends need to drop 10-15pts each. They are currently priced as if they had WS/BS 3+.

No way. The defiler is not in a bad spot.

Defiler is 98 points (minus the BC at BS4). That's 14 wounds with a 5++ and a heal. A helbrute is 90 points and 8 wounds for 4 weaker attacks that have -1 to hit unlike the Defiler. You can stick a TLC on a helbrute, but you could also put that on a defiler and reroll hits AND wounds, which is pretty big for lascannon shots not to mention also effecting the BC.

If a unit relies on a single, proportionally powerful strat to be good, then the unit isn't good. The strat is. Without the strat the defiler isn't worth using. Due to the strat, it can be worthwhile to bring one. But if we want to see proper daemon engine based lists showing up in the meta, then things need to change as I have specified.

Too bad there wasn’t a bit more creativity around weapon type with the obliterators. Call their weapon a Pistol, and I would pay 115 In heartbeat.

These gotta be fake. Over 30 for a helix adept? Well I'm never attempting a revive, maybe not even bothering with him

Yeah eliminators seem rough. Guys with a 1+ save that you can just put out of sight and have fire all day. They can move and shoot a target they can’t see on a 2+. Mortars? What mortars? Even reapers using fire and fade will hate these guys. I’d take buckets of them. A spearhead of them and a librarian might be the way to go.

Just reading some of these comments that are already analyzing every aspect of these new models and how useful/cost efficient they will be really highlights my distaste for 8th edition as a whole. It seems like the player base cares more about the competitive meta than having fun with their buddies and playing some games with some sweet new models.