Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If these pointcosts are final, then I expect most of them to drop in the next update.

22 ppm Infiltrators is a huge kick in the nads. They should cost about the same as Intercessors, perhaps 1-2 ppm more.
They have different (often worse) weaponry, and then they can pay for the area denial-aura and infiltrate. But 4-5 ppm more? No way José.

Eliminators, if they end up at 24 ppm (18 base, +3 for rifle, +3 for cloaks), are getting dangerously close to a Vindicare in cost, and I think we can all agree that the Vindicator by far is superior in most matchups.

Captain and Lieutenant suffer from bad wargear full stop, so I couldn't see myself taking them in general unless they where really cheap (which they aren't).

The Venomcrawler seems slightly overpriced compared to his Daemonengine-cousins, and they are already considered overpriced...

The Obliterators...yikes.

On the plus-side, Suppressors, Librarian, Master of Possession and possibly even the Greater Possessed all seem fine. So that's something I guess.
24 hours ago I was stoked about this release. Now I'm seriously considering ignoring it.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Just reading some of these comments that are already analyzing every aspect of these new models and how useful/cost efficient they will be really highlights my distaste for 8th edition as a whole. It seems like the player base cares more about the competitive meta than having fun with their buddies and playing some games with some sweet new models.

I don't think that is the fault of the edition, that's the attitude of the community. Most people take this stuff WAY to seriously these days. 7th drove me away from the game fast, but so far we are what, almost three years into 8th and I'm still having loads of fun with my armies, playing at least three times per week!

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Just reading some of these comments that are already analyzing every aspect of these new models and how useful/cost efficient they will be really highlights my distaste for 8th edition as a whole. It seems like the player base cares more about the competitive meta than having fun with their buddies and playing some games with some sweet new models.

Evaluating the power of a model, and evaluating the aesthetics of a model are very different things. I and alot of other people use non competitive models all the time for friendly games because we want to use a unit or model we enjoy. Not sure what type of meta you are in but it must be very different than mine if thats your reaction. My meta isn't castellan +32 or ynnari or GTFO lol. That doesn't mean you can't look at a unit and debate its merits though, theory crafting is fun, that doesn't mean everyone is building every list according to that though lol. This statement read very arrogant.... sorry if it wasn't intended as such just seems a very.... holier than thou thing to say. Think you might be projecting a bit here.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
. The current Daemon engines are already not worth using. Venom needs to be ~100, and the defiler and fiends need to drop 10-15pts each. They are currently priced as if they had WS/BS 3+.

No way. The defiler is not in a bad spot.

Defiler is 98 points (minus the BC at BS4). That's 14 wounds with a 5++ and a heal. A helbrute is 90 points and 8 wounds for 4 weaker attacks that have -1 to hit unlike the Defiler. You can stick a TLC on a helbrute, but you could also put that on a defiler and reroll hits AND wounds, which is pretty big for lascannon shots not to mention also effecting the BC.

If a unit relies on a single, proportionally powerful strat to be good, then the unit isn't good. The strat is. Without the strat the defiler isn't worth using. Due to the strat, it can be worthwhile to bring one. But if we want to see proper daemon engine based lists showing up in the meta, then things need to change as I have specified.

I'm not confident that shaving 45 points off a list with 3 of them suddenly makes them viable if they aren't already. MoP kicks them up as well - 42 T7 4++ wounds with heals is no joke.

 Togusa wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Just reading some of these comments that are already analyzing every aspect of these new models and how useful/cost efficient they will be really highlights my distaste for 8th edition as a whole. It seems like the player base cares more about the competitive meta than having fun with their buddies and playing some games with some sweet new models.

I don't think that is the fault of the edition, that's the attitude of the community. Most people take this stuff WAY to seriously these days. 7th drove me away from the game fast, but so far we are what, almost three years into 8th and I'm still having loads of fun with my armies, playing at least three times per week!

I'm a hobbyist and painter first. I like the game because I like space marines, and especially chaos space marines. I got into the hobby in late 4th ed because I wanted to make a Legion army. I don't need it to be an A+ list or anything. But it needs to be worth putting on the tabletop. My analysis of the meta is entirely through the lens of "Does this make putting CSM on the table worthwhile?". So far I've been waiting 4 editions, and from the looks of things we've got a lot longer to wait still.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Just reading some of these comments that are already analyzing every aspect of these new models and how useful/cost efficient they will be really highlights my distaste for 8th edition as a whole. It seems like the player base cares more about the competitive meta than having fun with their buddies and playing some games with some sweet new models.

You say this like it hasn't been a thing that's true since at least 3rd edition.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
. The current Daemon engines are already not worth using. Venom needs to be ~100, and the defiler and fiends need to drop 10-15pts each. They are currently priced as if they had WS/BS 3+.

No way. The defiler is not in a bad spot.

Defiler is 98 points (minus the BC at BS4). That's 14 wounds with a 5++ and a heal. A helbrute is 90 points and 8 wounds for 4 weaker attacks that have -1 to hit unlike the Defiler. You can stick a TLC on a helbrute, but you could also put that on a defiler and reroll hits AND wounds, which is pretty big for lascannon shots not to mention also effecting the BC.

If a unit relies on a single, proportionally powerful strat to be good, then the unit isn't good. The strat is. Without the strat the defiler isn't worth using. Due to the strat, it can be worthwhile to bring one. But if we want to see proper daemon engine based lists showing up in the meta, then things need to change as I have specified.

I'm not confident that shaving 45 points off a list with 3 of them suddenly makes them viable if they aren't already. MoP kicks them up as well - 42 T7 4++ wounds with heals is no joke.

They have good defensive efficiency, yeah. And lots of potential buff and aura synergy. But all that costs a lot. We know they aren't running roughshod over the meta right now, and you are correct that taking 15pts off won't change that. 45 pts off 3 doesn't make this suddenly a viable list. But 90pts off 6 assorted daemon engines might. That basically covers the cost of the MoP in a big, daemon engine swarm list. And then you might be swinging enough efficient vehicle wounds around to get somewhere competitively.

Let me put it this way. "I had better bring X unit to deal with swarms of hard to kill daemon engines" is not something anybody is saying in the meta right now. But -15pts off each daemon engine + the MoP and greater possessed might just make them need to think about it. People should have to worry that a bunch of defilers are gonna come mob their Castellan in melee and need to have a way to deal with it.

I'm far from super competitive, but it is still shame if a new cool looking unit sucks. It is not like the pure Primaris armies are exactly ruling the tournament scene at the moment. I am also less concerned about the exact point cost of things like characters, as you are not include many anyway. But for a troop unit that you might want to field in great numbers, the points add up pretty quickly.

 Crimson wrote:
I'm far from super competitive, but it is still shame if a new cool looking unit sucks. It is not like the pure Primaris armies are exactly ruling the tournament scene at the moment. I am also less concerned about the exact point cost of things like characters, as you are not include many anyway. But for a troop unit that you might want to field in great numbers, the points add up pretty quickly.

I feel that way especially torwards the csm in the box, they look great, they got the heavy weapon i always wanted in plastic but even in a soup list with my renegades i wouldn't field them over 3 additional squads of militia.

They simply can't generate enough cp for a Troop choice in an army that heavily relies on stratagems.

I am disgusted by the Chaos pts, and I don't play Chaos. I want balanced points so the game is more enjoyable for everyone. Don't get me wrong, I like strong options. For everyone. Including my opponent.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am disgusted by the Chaos pts, and I don't play Chaos. I want balanced points so the game is more enjoyable for everyone. Don't get me wrong, I like strong options. For everyone. Including my opponent.

MoP will be seeing play surely, maybee not top tables but he is interesting, the greater Possessed have some angels.

It's really just the csm (the squad also is terribly equipped what with melee + bolter mix) and the Oblits pricetag.

To be honest I wonder if the points cost for infiltrators isn't about right. Before seeing these costs I was starting to think that they'd make intercessors entirely redundant. I could flood the midfield with bodies that would be very hard to shift. Armies like GSC would lose at list selection.

At 22 ppm a 5 man squad is still affordable. It's not crazy to go 110 for these guys instead of 85 for intercessors. But if I'm fielding 30+ guys then they should be intercessors - and that's how it ought to be.

Suppressors at 33 are awesome. For context, that's the cost of a marine with a missile launcher. These guys look like a solid option to me, and a great combo with the warlord trait that lets you re-deploy.

80 for the lieutenant is fine. A normal lieutenant is 74 and this guy has more options. His gun is arguably worse but that's not why you bring these guys anyway.

The librarian, likewise, seems great. He's another excellent combo with the redeploy warlord trait which, presumably, he can have.

It's really just the captain who sucks. You don't want to be using a captain as a screen (lol) and you don't really want to infiltrate a guy with a bad heavy weapon and negligible ability in cc. Fortunately I'm very happy with my (much cheaper, weirdly) Fist of Vengeance captain.

And eliminators are good. They are worth 24 points if that's what they cost. If anything, it's a problem that they are barely more expensive than infiltrators, because I think you'd take these guys every time.

As for the Chaos side of the release... well you get a nice new character to stand behind your cultists. Otherwise... oh well. The only positive I can see is that more stuff is probably on the way, and maybe it'll come with viable rules for your guys.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Just reading some of these comments that are already analyzing every aspect of these new models and how useful/cost efficient they will be really highlights my distaste for 8th edition as a whole. It seems like the player base cares more about the competitive meta than having fun with their buddies and playing some games with some sweet new models.

I don't think that is the fault of the edition, that's the attitude of the community. Most people take this stuff WAY to seriously these days. 7th drove me away from the game fast, but so far we are what, almost three years into 8th and I'm still having loads of fun with my armies, playing at least three times per week!

I'm a hobbyist and painter first. I like the game because I like space marines, and especially chaos space marines. I got into the hobby in late 4th ed because I wanted to make a Legion army. I don't need it to be an A+ list or anything. But it needs to be worth putting on the tabletop. My analysis of the meta is entirely through the lens of "Does this make putting CSM on the table worthwhile?". So far I've been waiting 4 editions, and from the looks of things we've got a lot longer to wait still.

Local meta? Most of this stuff will do fine in my area, I expect to see a jump in CSM players over the next two months, half of them will stick with it, that's just based on past experience.

I really wanted to play CSM in 6th/7th, but my friends talked me out of it. This looks like a good time to try and jump back in.

I think the early board control/deepstrike blocking as well as being potentially hard to shift with psychic powers and stratagems etc will have a much bigger effect than some may account for.

It could shut down/disrupt some armies for a fair few turns. Not that it will stop the best armies out there but it will have a big effect on some.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally, those talking about the eliminators being overcosted when compared to a vindicare aren't considering one of the main glaring needs of a vindicate as it seems, you need two of them.

A vindicare and a squad of these may just be enough to take out those small characters with just too many wounds in a turn.

Mandragola wrote:
To be honest I wonder if the points cost for infiltrators isn't about right. Before seeing these costs I was starting to think that they'd make intercessors entirely redundant. I could flood the midfield with bodies that would be very hard to shift.

Yup, because healing (maybe) a single dude per round makes them sooo durable, eh?

Let me also point out that even if 'hard to shift' bit was true, their offensive output is that of tactical marine. You know, model that is considered overpriced at 13 points, except now costing 26+ points with medic considered. Twice as much. May I ask how this makes any sense to you?

At 22 ppm a 5 man squad is still affordable. It's not crazy to go 110 for these guys instead of 85 for intercessors. But if I'm fielding 30+ guys then they should be intercessors - and that's how it ought to be.

"Ought to be"? Says who?

It's like saying to someone who wants to build first company, full of terminators, stern- and vanguard 'LOL just take tacticals instead". Except even worse, because instead of Tacticals +1 you postulate shoehorning something with completely different feel, role, and tactics instead. Never mind fluff says vanguards can operate in company size, you're saying to someone who wants to field 'scout company' except with primaris that he/she is having badwrongfun and they should go back to boring starter models instead of variety...

Mandragola wrote:
To be honest I wonder if the points cost for infiltrators isn't about right. Before seeing these costs I was starting to think that they'd make intercessors entirely redundant. I could flood the midfield with bodies that would be very hard to shift. Armies like GSC would lose at list selection.

I'm wondering if their Omni-Scramblers are an upgrade rather than mandatory. It's also possible that the full kit builds a 'variant' that we haven't seen yet that is a Troops slot that doesn't have alternate deployment/denial.

From the sounds of it Reivers are going to get the Phobos keyword. So that's nice. they might be one of the best units to use temporal corridor on.

To me at least Venomcrawlers are not *that* overpriced.

The idea that a defiler at 142 or a Mauler at 132 is "overpriced" is somewhat ridiculous given how tough they are and the damage they output. I have always been quite fond of them.

The Crawler is perhaps at MOST 15 points overpriced. At the very most. Probably should have been 120.

Its got easy-access str 8 guns that don't care about moving and can heal up to 2 a turn before any healing spell effect occurs. It certainly has potential. (We at this moment do not know its attack stat but I am going to guess it has 4 given all the other melee engines do) The gun can be buffed to str 9 quite easily if you intend on taking Greater Possessed which at this point may as well be miniature daemon princes in combat as an easy access buff.

I don't see the issue honestly, though helbrutes at this moment are priced pretty well that 5++ and regen often makes it far more capable over the long term in my experience.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Just reading some of these comments that are already analyzing every aspect of these new models and how useful/cost efficient they will be really highlights my distaste for 8th edition as a whole. It seems like the player base cares more about the competitive meta than having fun with their buddies and playing some games with some sweet new models.

It's the only reason to discuss the units...

If we were just talking beer and pretzels games then guess what? Almost everyone says the same thing, "take what you want".

There has to be some weight to the outcome. Losing a tourney adds that weight.

Ahriman21 wrote:
To me at least Venomcrawlers are not *that* overpriced.

The idea that a defiler at 142 or a Mauler at 132 is "overpriced" is somewhat ridiculous given how tough they are and the damage they output. I have always been quite fond of them.

The Crawler is perhaps at MOST 15 points overpriced. At the very most. Probably should have been 120.

Its got easy-access str 8 guns that don't care about moving and can heal up to 2 a turn before any healing spell effect occurs. It certainly has potential. (We at this moment do not know its attack stat but I am going to guess it has 4 given all the other melee engines do) The gun can be buffed to str 9 quite easily if you intend on taking Greater Possessed which at this point may as well be miniature daemon princes in combat as an easy access buff.

I don't see the issue honestly, though helbrutes at this moment are priced pretty well that 5++ and regen often makes it far more capable over the long term in my experience.

If these units are well priced, why don't they get used?

(Hint: It's because their damage isn't as good as it looks at first after you factor in that they are WS/BS 4+.)

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Ahriman21 wrote:
To me at least Venomcrawlers are not *that* overpriced.

The idea that a defiler at 142 or a Mauler at 132 is "overpriced" is somewhat ridiculous given how tough they are and the damage they output. I have always been quite fond of them.

The Crawler is perhaps at MOST 15 points overpriced. At the very most. Probably should have been 120.

Its got easy-access str 8 guns that don't care about moving and can heal up to 2 a turn before any healing spell effect occurs. It certainly has potential. (We at this moment do not know its attack stat but I am going to guess it has 4 given all the other melee engines do) The gun can be buffed to str 9 quite easily if you intend on taking Greater Possessed which at this point may as well be miniature daemon princes in combat as an easy access buff.

I don't see the issue honestly, though helbrutes at this moment are priced pretty well that 5++ and regen often makes it far more capable over the long term in my experience.

If these units are well priced, why don't they get used?

(Hint: It's because their damage isn't as good as it looks at first after you factor in that they are WS/BS 4+.)

A flawed line of reasoning. They most certainly do "get used" and I see them quite frequently, but the fact that they aren't included in top "ITC" or tourney lists means literally *nothing* to the vast majority of people that play the game. Its not like we don't have a 1 CP strat that may be the most cost-effective in the entire bloody game to even out their WS/BS

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
From the sounds of it Reivers are going to get the Phobos keyword. So that's nice. they might be one of the best units to use temporal corridor on.

From the sounds of what? I agree this should be done, but have you seen anything to suggest it could actually happen?

I'd love to see Reivers get an updated datasheet, featuring the sergeant options that intercessors have. They should clearly have the phobos keyword but that on its own isn't enough. They need to be able to accually accomplish something when they arrive in melee.

On the subject of infiltrators, I agree that the medic guy isn't worth taking. So don't - it looks to me like 5-man squads are the way to go anyway, in which case he's not even an option. I'm talking about 22ppm for a tough troops unit that makes a really excellent screen. And the best thing to compare it to is a scout, which costs exactly half as much. Honestly I'm not sure whether I do think infiltrators are worth two scouts, but they could be. The value of scouts has dropped a lot now they are somehow supposed to live to turn 2. Your opponent will have to point proper guns at interceptors to get rid of them. That's possible of course, but it then takes those guns away from firing at your big guys.

My point is that they have to be significantly more than intercessors, because they're significantly better. People take scouts instead of tactical marines even though they have worse armour, because of the board control. These guys have better board control than scouts and they are just as good at fighting as intercessors.

I think I'd have liked to see infiltrators at something like 20ppm. And I wouldn't pay any more for the medic guy. 22 does feel a bit high.

FWIW I ran the numbers on how many wounds a carbine would cause compared to a rifle. Most of the time the guns are really similar. Bolt rifles are marginally better vs GEQ but carbines marginally better vs orks. Rifles shade it vs MEQ. Carbines are 50% better again vs T8 - though neither is going to take down many knights.

These were my results (number of wounds carbine causes for every wound rifle causes):

Plaguebearer: 1.5 - so for every 2 plaguebearers intercessors kill, infiltrators would kill 3

GEQ 0.9 - a win for the rifles.

Ork 1.04 - a win for carbines, but the difference is negligible.

MEQ: 0.83 - rifles solidly ahead here. 6 rifle kills per 5 carbine kills.

Knight: 1.5 - carbines well ahead, though things aren't looking good if this is what you're aiming them at!

Carbines do have a shorter range, though infiltrators can infiltrate, making up a lot of that difference. Overall I think they come out roughly even.

Meh, if those are the correct point costs I'll wait for the Libby to pop up on ebay/be released in a standalone blister and grab it. At most, some fancy Eliminators. Although Repressors aren't that badly costed, I already have Plasma Inceptors that do their job.

if infilitrators were like 2pts less, and their helix adept was like 25pts. Then they would be great! sadly they aren't.

Just to throw in some additional comment. Oblits are expensive at 115 points if true. But if you take just one Oblit and deep strike it into the backline. It kinda forms a similar function as the old throwaway termicide unit...

And its melee has improved now, so if you charge it into a cheap backline objective holder, well chances are you will win.

And its kinda hard to screen your entire backline against 1 Oblit. I mean, you could if you ran 6 to 8 infantry units but if that 1 Oblit managed to get you to spread out infantry units all over to screen like that, then its worth its 115 points I feel.

Ahriman21 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Ahriman21 wrote:
To me at least Venomcrawlers are not *that* overpriced.

The idea that a defiler at 142 or a Mauler at 132 is "overpriced" is somewhat ridiculous given how tough they are and the damage they output. I have always been quite fond of them.

The Crawler is perhaps at MOST 15 points overpriced. At the very most. Probably should have been 120.

Its got easy-access str 8 guns that don't care about moving and can heal up to 2 a turn before any healing spell effect occurs. It certainly has potential. (We at this moment do not know its attack stat but I am going to guess it has 4 given all the other melee engines do) The gun can be buffed to str 9 quite easily if you intend on taking Greater Possessed which at this point may as well be miniature daemon princes in combat as an easy access buff.

I don't see the issue honestly, though helbrutes at this moment are priced pretty well that 5++ and regen often makes it far more capable over the long term in my experience.

If these units are well priced, why don't they get used?

(Hint: It's because their damage isn't as good as it looks at first after you factor in that they are WS/BS 4+.)

A flawed line of reasoning. They most certainly do "get used" and I see them quite frequently, but the fact that they aren't included in top "ITC" or tourney lists means literally *nothing* to the vast majority of people that play the game. Its not like we don't have a 1 CP strat that may be the most cost-effective in the entire bloody game to even out their WS/BS

Okay, so I claim that they are not competitively priced and your response is....to agree that they are not competitively priced? Well alright then. Glad we're on the same page! As for the strat, see my previous responses a couple posts back. If a unit is only good because of a really good strat, it is the strat that is good, not the unit.

Mandragola wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
From the sounds of it Reivers are going to get the Phobos keyword. So that's nice. they might be one of the best units to use temporal corridor on.

From the sounds of what? I agree this should be done, but have you seen anything to suggest it could actually happen?

I'd love to see Reivers get an updated datasheet, featuring the sergeant options that intercessors have. They should clearly have the phobos keyword but that on its own isn't enough. They need to be able to accually accomplish something when they arrive in melee.

According to GW Facebook, they will be getting the Phobos keyword in the mini-dex in Shadowspear.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
From the sounds of it Reivers are going to get the Phobos keyword. So that's nice. they might be one of the best units to use temporal corridor on.

From the sounds of what? I agree this should be done, but have you seen anything to suggest it could actually happen?

I'd love to see Reivers get an updated datasheet, featuring the sergeant options that intercessors have. They should clearly have the phobos keyword but that on its own isn't enough. They need to be able to accually accomplish something when they arrive in melee.

According to GW Facebook, they will be getting the Phobos keyword in the mini-dex in Shadowspear.

If you're referring to THIS it doesn't say what you think it says.

 Ghaz wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
From the sounds of it Reivers are going to get the Phobos keyword. So that's nice. they might be one of the best units to use temporal corridor on.

From the sounds of what? I agree this should be done, but have you seen anything to suggest it could actually happen?

I'd love to see Reivers get an updated datasheet, featuring the sergeant options that intercessors have. They should clearly have the phobos keyword but that on its own isn't enough. They need to be able to accually accomplish something when they arrive in melee.

According to GW Facebook, they will be getting the Phobos keyword in the mini-dex in Shadowspear.

If you're referring to THIS it doesn't say what you think it says.

Ha, that's my post, BTW. In the comments for today's article, they confirmed in multiple places that Reivers will be getting the Phobos keyword in the comments. They weren't 100% definitive, but they seldom are.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
From the sounds of it Reivers are going to get the Phobos keyword. So that's nice. they might be one of the best units to use temporal corridor on.

From the sounds of what? I agree this should be done, but have you seen anything to suggest it could actually happen?

I'd love to see Reivers get an updated datasheet, featuring the sergeant options that intercessors have. They should clearly have the phobos keyword but that on its own isn't enough. They need to be able to accually accomplish something when they arrive in melee.

According to GW Facebook, they will be getting the Phobos keyword in the mini-dex in Shadowspear.

If you're referring to THIS it doesn't say what you think it says.

Ha, that's my post, BTW. In the comments for today's article, they confirmed in multiple places that Reivers will be getting the Phobos keyword in the comments. They weren't 100% definitive, but they seldom are.

It's likely but not certain. Time will tell and we'll know for sure in a few weeks.

They've done 180's on FB comments in the past when they've "confirmed" stuff they shouldn't have so I take it as the proverbial salt that it is.