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 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Keep the Heretic Astartes as Legion focused.

What about Renegade Chapters? \

Fair to say they are Heretic Astartes, so put them in the Heretic Astartes book

I disagree. Renegade Chapters need to be handled in the vanilla codex via replacing of keywords. It would be a single page.

Yeah, because that won't cause issues.

As it stands? Renegades don't really have a "best fit" option. Ideally they should get their own Codex or be in the generic CSM book with a note that they can take a select few items from the Space Marines book.

Regardless in which codex you put it, it depends
How wholeheartidly the renegades have fallen.

spartiatis wrote:
Hello! Question: do we know if in the shadowspear box, the SM miniatures have a helmet option or are they just as monopose as they seem?

They're no more monopose than the full kits likely will be, but the only items that have optional heads are the two generic Eliminators. The Sergeant does not get a head option.

spartiatis wrote:
Hello! Question: do we know if in the shadowspear box, the SM miniatures have a helmet option or are they just as monopose as they seem?

I believe there are some additional head options, but not a ton. Looking a the sprues, I can only find 2 Eliminators and one is the Sgt on a separate sprue.
That leads me to assume that the sprue with the couching Eliminator comes in the box twice, meaning the non-Sgt Elims are the same model
However, we know there are different heads for each on the non-Sgt guys, so there must be multiple head options.

All the heads also look to be separate from the bodies, so while I am sure they will be that peg that orients the head in a specific direction, you can also just chop that off and turn the helmets however you want.

-

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Keep the Heretic Astartes as Legion focused.

What about Renegade Chapters? \

Fair to say they are Heretic Astartes, so put them in the Heretic Astartes book

I disagree. Renegade Chapters need to be handled in the vanilla codex via replacing of keywords. It would be a single page.

Yeah, because that won't cause issues.

As it stands? Renegades don't really have a "best fit" option. Ideally they should get their own Codex or be in the generic CSM book with a note that they can take a select few items from the Space Marines book.

Regardless in which codex you put it, it depends was wholeheartidly how deep the renegades have fallen.

Any Chapter that fell THAT deep was going to be represented by the Legions in the end. We both know that.

As is, standard Renegades having all these Daemon engines and suddenly losing a bunch of stuff at the same time is silly. At most they should have just a few daemonic units (Possessed, Spawn, Warp Talons), and the HQ units can attempt summoning I guess. Replace a few Keywords so they ally smoothly with the Legions, RoH, and Daemons. Bam, done.

I dont think the game requires yet another completely mediocre Power armor codex. They've already ruined CSM and SM with bad rules :p

Yep keyword replacement would work, the rare deamon engines etc. Are handled by forge world, chaos keyword gets you deamons and a "no primaris" rule handles that issue too, then they have the full gambit of marine stuff, deamons and deamon engines through forge world.

Keyword replacement is a non-starter. Renegades are Chaos Space Marines so they use what comes from the Chaos Space Marines box and that's it. No more, no less. Rules and fluff exist to describe what's in the box. Not the other way around.

The problem with renegades isn't that the rules force them to use legion equipment - it's that GW haven't thought of a reasonable fluff explanation why they need to use legion equipment. Not for lack of creativity, mind you. Afterall, they've come up with fluff justifications to revive dead primarchs and tear up the venerable Codex Astartes in favor of embiggened space marines in AssHelblaster squads so if they really cared to I'm sure they could figure out why renegades use autocannons. If they cared to (they don't).

Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Keyword replacement is a non-starter. Renegades are Chaos Space Marines so they use what comes from the Chaos Space Marines box and that's it. No more, no less. Rules and fluff exist to describe what's in the box. Not the other way around.

The problem with renegades isn't that the rules force them to use legion equipment - it's that GW haven't thought of a reasonable fluff explanation why they need to use legion equipment. Not for lack of creativity, mind you. Afterall, they've come up with fluff justifications to revive dead primarchs and tear up the venerable Codex Astartes in favor of embiggened space marines in AssHelblaster squads so if they really cared to I'm sure they could figure out why renegades use autocannons. If they cared to (they don't).

Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.

A: don't tell me what i have to think /say.
B: unlike with the legions which got completely fethed up the renegade lore atleast makes some sense.
C: there are less strings attached narrative wise ergo more freedom unlike with failbaddon the (h)armless and the other main CSM Champions.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.

This but unironically.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Keyword replacement is a non-starter. Renegades are Chaos Space Marines so they use what comes from the Chaos Space Marines box and that's it. No more, no less. Rules and fluff exist to describe what's in the box. Not the other way around.

The problem with renegades isn't that the rules force them to use legion equipment - it's that GW haven't thought of a reasonable fluff explanation why they need to use legion equipment. Not for lack of creativity, mind you. Afterall, they've come up with fluff justifications to revive dead primarchs and tear up the venerable Codex Astartes in favor of embiggened space marines in AssHelblaster squads so if they really cared to I'm sure they could figure out why renegades use autocannons. If they cared to (they don't).

Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.

In the lore there are a number of Renegade Space Marine chapters that aren't Chaos Space marines... Some chapters that simply developed mutations, others that were on the wrong side of an internal Imperium dispute, some that simply slighted an Inquisitor... while they all seem to inevitably slide to Chaos its seems more out of necessity or GW's lack of willingness to support an in between.

The explanation for the equipment CSM use is that regardless of flavor they're mostly all resupplied by the same handful of Dark Mechanicum Hellforges.

Renegades are in that gradation between the two and it doesn't really give GW anything new to sell. GW's models first approach means rules and lore are written to justify the models, and its less common that they look at things the other way.

One of the problem with supporting Renegades in general they'd lack anything distinctive and no matter what blend of loyalist and chaos options they got there would be an inevitable dispute from loyalist and chaos players. The giant crates of autocannons Renegades seem to find the day they leave the Imperium being an example of a problem CSM players have. Loyalist players complained when the CSM rotor cannon was previewed. If Renegades got Storm Ravens, CSM would want them, and Loyalists would be like "how do they have those". Then you'd have moments of "I don't understand why I can take a Land Raider crusader but not a Land Speeder". So its something of a losing battle for GW. If FW were still doing much in the way of Imperial Armour, the Badab War was the perfect vector for 40k rules to represent the various states of Renegades and would allow the nuances and explanations GW can't bother to squeeze into a codex.

If GW ever did a Renegade codex you would probably have something like Fallen as the centerpiece to the army, a blend of loyalist and chaos rules and with rules that give particular factions bonuses to represent animosity and grudges that depending on options could ally with Loyalist/Chaos/Xenos. Thematically they're piratical space marines that due to a lack of support from the Imperium would have deteriorating loyalist equipment and potentially if they had chaos benefactors some CSM equipment; however once you exclude the more overtly daemon engines and possessed stuff that demands a truer devotion to chaos, you really aren't left with much from the current chaos list. You might be able to get daemon weapons as relics, or a few mutations to add to your marines. Thematically they'd have the deteriorating organization and chapter tactics, being fielded as the sort of cheap disposable marines that GW want the basic CSM to be. Renegades would probably be best sold akin to the Deathwatch, as loyalist kits that have add-on bits that make them look more rag-tag, but is that really enough? At most you have something of a mini-codex, with one or two specifically Renegade squads, and maybe as many character units.

I think its a shame GW hasn't taken advantage of the distinct ways of playing 40k they introduced with the new edition to write rules for distinct but less note worthy sub-factions that are then limited to narrative play... where the inequity isn't going to ruin anyones day but build on their universe.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.

Yup, because Red Corsairs, only oh, small legion sized group of SM mostly from loyalist chapters, doesn't exist, eh? Or the Second Imperium thing, at least until BL took colossal dump on that idea? Or, for that matter, these 30 fallen chapters from Abyssal Crusade, they all magically mutated from loyalist gear into 10.000 year old stuff the second they fell?

There is being wrong and there is having no case to begin with, if putting on wolfwolfwolf or used bathrobe gives you your own book, real differences should count doubly.

At the end of the day, however, Renegade Marines are such a diverse group that covers so many varying backgrounds/motivations that it would be difficult to properly represent them in a Codex.

Some are still aligned with loyalist views, some are evil without the Daemons, etc.
Thankfully, GW has provided SEVERAL Marine Codices for anyone to chose from when selecting what Renegade Warband they want to use.
Want Renegades that don't worship chaos? Use literally any Imperial Astates Codex, or even any Chaos one but don't use any <Marks> or DAEMONS.

Super easy, barely an inconvenience

-

 Galef wrote:
At the end of the day, however, Renegade Marines are such a diverse group that covers so many varying backgrounds/motivations that it would be difficult to properly represent them in a Codex.

Some are still aligned with loyalist views, some are evil without the Daemons, etc.
Thankfully, GW has provided SEVERAL Marine Codices for anyone to chose from when selecting what Renegade Warband they want to use.
Want Renegades that don't worship chaos? Use literally any Imperial Astates Codex, or even any Chaos one but don't use any <Marks> or DAEMONS.

Super easy, barely an inconvenience

-

That still doesn't properly convey Renegades though. That's why I'm hammering the idea of switching keywords around ans simply giving access to a few generic Chaos units.

...If you are in favor of a keyword swap from space marines to make your renegades, why not just run your renegades as "loyalist marines" and choose one of the existing chapter tactics?

And if your renegades have gone a bit crazier/fallen to chaos, why not use them with existing renegade/CSM rules?

What about Renegades makes them fight in such a unique manner that we need our, what, TWELFTH power-armored codex, when we have a grand total of EIGHT codexes for the myriad millions of xenos races in the entire galaxy of 40k?

Also, what makes them more unique than World Eaters/Emperor's Children who would have the god daemonkin angle ala Tsons/DG?

for me, I see a tiny intersectional window between "I want to take some stuff from Codex: CSM and some stuff from Codex: SM" which doesn't even come anywhere close to requiring a whole dedicated codex book (or at least, not before many more interesting factions are added/fleshed out).

We have. Enough. Space. Marines.

 Irbis wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.

Yup, because Red Corsairs, only oh, small legion sized group of SM mostly from loyalist chapters, doesn't exist, eh? Or the Second Imperium thing, at least until BL took colossal dump on that idea? Or, for that matter, these 30 fallen chapters from Abyssal Crusade, they all magically mutated from loyalist gear into 10.000 year old stuff the second they fell?

There is being wrong and there is having no case to begin with, if putting on wolfwolfwolf or used bathrobe gives you your own book, real differences should count doubly.

You're overthinking this. They're mooks. One does not ask why the mook mooks the way he mooks. He just does and that's the beginning and end of it. He's not the star of the show, he's target practice. Who cares what the target practice is armed with as long as he looks suitably menacing as the heroes heroically blast him into oblivion? Because the mook knows what the mook knows and the mook knows that he wears black clothes and he dies off in the shadows off the stage.

spartiatis wrote:
Hello! Question: do we know if in the shadowspear box, the SM miniatures have a helmet option or are they just as monopose as they seem?

They are monopose and don't come with any spares. You can stick bare heads on them if you've got them from other sources though - the heads are seperate.

I'll probably give a couple of guys the weird helmeted head that comes with the Imperial Fists sprue.

the_scotsman wrote:
...If you are in favor of a keyword swap from space marines to make your renegades, why not just run your renegades as "loyalist marines" and choose one of the existing chapter tactics?

And if your renegades have gone a bit crazier/fallen to chaos, why not use them with existing renegade/CSM rules?

What about Renegades makes them fight in such a unique manner that we need our, what, TWELFTH power-armored codex, when we have a grand total of EIGHT codexes for the myriad millions of xenos races in the entire galaxy of 40k?

Also, what makes them more unique than World Eaters/Emperor's Children who would have the god daemonkin angle ala Tsons/DG?

for me, I see a tiny intersectional window between "I want to take some stuff from Codex: CSM and some stuff from Codex: SM" which doesn't even come anywhere close to requiring a whole dedicated codex book (or at least, not before many more interesting factions are added/fleshed out).

We have. Enough. Space. Marines.

Keyword swaps affects allies and who interacts with them. A Renegade Iron Hands successor would be able to work with a Death Guard and Black Legion fighting force with whatever Nurgle Daemons present, for example, and be able to take advantage of Abigail's aura and their Possessed/mildly Daemonic units to take advantage of those darn Trees or the Locus the Daemons provide.

The problem is that the core CSM codex doesn't show Renegades properly due to them all the sudden operating like they have all these Daemon Engines and Heresy equipment all the sudden, like Autocannons and soon to be released Rotor Cannons. The moment you go Renegade, you also lose the Signum for your Devastators, Grav Guns, Land Speeders, Centurions, and so on, oh and you don't have Chapter Master rules. It makes absolutely no sense, and that's why I'm saying that Renegades need to be handled in the core Marine codex. Lose the main special units a Chapter provides, you get a couple of more generic Chaos units (the example I provide is Possessed, Warp Talons, and Spawn as a start for covering daemonic interactions or mutations), and BAM you're done.

I'm also of the idea Dark and Blood Angels need to be consolidated as well, but YMMV.

Also because of how Thousand Sons and Death Guard were handled, I'm more than in favor for the other two Cult Legions getting their own codices. You can argue how competitive and stuff Thousand Sons and Death Guard were done, but in terms of execution they feel like unique codices that honestly don't need a terrible amount of fixing.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.

Yup, because Red Corsairs, only oh, small legion sized group of SM mostly from loyalist chapters, doesn't exist, eh? Or the Second Imperium thing, at least until BL took colossal dump on that idea? Or, for that matter, these 30 fallen chapters from Abyssal Crusade, they all magically mutated from loyalist gear into 10.000 year old stuff the second they fell?

There is being wrong and there is having no case to begin with, if putting on wolfwolfwolf or used bathrobe gives you your own book, real differences should count doubly.

You're overthinking this. They're mooks. One does not ask why the mook mooks the way he mooks. He just does and that's the beginning and end of it. He's not the star of the show, he's target practice. Who cares what the target practice is armed with as long as he looks suitably menacing as the heroes heroically blast him into oblivion? Because the mook knows what the mook knows and the mook knows that he wears black clothes and he dies off in the shadows off the stage.

Your point is made. They aren't mooks to us and that's the problem.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.

Yup, because Red Corsairs, only oh, small legion sized group of SM mostly from loyalist chapters, doesn't exist, eh? Or the Second Imperium thing, at least until BL took colossal dump on that idea? Or, for that matter, these 30 fallen chapters from Abyssal Crusade, they all magically mutated from loyalist gear into 10.000 year old stuff the second they fell?

There is being wrong and there is having no case to begin with, if putting on wolfwolfwolf or used bathrobe gives you your own book, real differences should count doubly.

You're overthinking this. They're mooks. One does not ask why the mook mooks the way he mooks. He just does and that's the beginning and end of it. He's not the star of the show, he's target practice. Who cares what the target practice is armed with as long as he looks suitably menacing as the heroes heroically blast him into oblivion? Because the mook knows what the mook knows and the mook knows that he wears black clothes and he dies off in the shadows off the stage.

Your point is made. They aren't mooks to us and that's the problem.

I just think expecting any more for them is setting oneself up for disappointment. It's been this way since 4th edition and I don't see it changing.

Are we talking about icecream again?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Your point is made. They aren't mooks to us and that's the problem.

I just think expecting any more for them is setting oneself up for disappointment. It's been this way since 4th edition and I don't see it changing.

Fair enough.

GW created these different ways to play the game this edition, and it'd be nice to see them use that to allow for faction flavors that are less developed to give us rules that are a different way to use what's already available. Low effort, low consequence support.

As things are, you're right GW isn't going to do anything. If they ever, it'll be after they've spun off so many distinctive flavors of chaos that the core codex is so devoid it requires they give it some thought. What will C:CSM look like and have going for it when World Eaters and Emperor's Children get their own codices, and GW decides that the Shadow Spear Daemonkin codex should be entirely its own thing... then do Dark Mechanicum and pull out the daemon engines... That's the point, if at all, GW goes to reexamine ways to have more going for CSM and maybe say "this Renegade thing... maybe there's something to it"

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Your point is made. They aren't mooks to us and that's the problem.

I just think expecting any more for them is setting oneself up for disappointment. It's been this way since 4th edition and I don't see it changing.

Fair enough.

GW created these different ways to play the game this edition, and it'd be nice to see them use that to allow for faction flavors that are less developed to give us rules that are a different way to use what's already available. Low effort, low consequence support.

As things are, you're right GW isn't going to do anything. If they ever, it'll be after they've spun off so many distinctive flavors of chaos that the core codex is so devoid it requires they give it some thought. What will C:CSM look like and have going for it when World Eaters and Emperor's Children get their own codices, and GW decides that the Shadow Spear Daemonkin codex should be entirely its own thing... then do Dark Mechanicum and pull out the daemon engines... That's the point, if at all, GW goes to reexamine ways to have more going for CSM and maybe say "this Renegade thing... maybe there's something to it"

Well, it would give GW a chance to focus on Word Bearers, Black Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion without having the Cult Legions throwing things off balance. That's a good thing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
At the end of the day, however, Renegade Marines are such a diverse group that covers so many varying backgrounds/motivations that it would be difficult to properly represent them in a Codex.

Some are still aligned with loyalist views, some are evil without the Daemons, etc.
Thankfully, GW has provided SEVERAL Marine Codices for anyone to chose from when selecting what Renegade Warband they want to use.
Want Renegades that don't worship chaos? Use literally any Imperial Astates Codex, or even any Chaos one but don't use any <Marks> or DAEMONS.

Super easy, barely an inconvenience

-

That still doesn't properly convey Renegades though. That's why I'm hammering the idea of switching keywords around ans simply giving access to a few generic Chaos units.

Yeah, I've been of a similar mindset.

If Eldar can get Ynnari, I'm sure there's a decent set of options hybridizing the vanilla C/SM lists to represent renegades. If the old "0-1 [units]" entries existed, it would be really easy. Even in the current system, with wargear linked to what models can field, I think there's still a lot of room to do some mix of the two with a short list of Warlord traits and relics that would only end up around a couple pages of rules content. Probably draw most vehicles and terminator options from the Marines codex and remove anything Scout, Primaris; add in Cult marines, possessed, DPs, marks; pick whichever version feels right from the ones with overlaps (like probably Chosen instead of veterans) and mix the characters from both lines as appropriate.

Neither list is especially strong, and they're both power armor based, so it would probably be pretty simple to balance.

White Dwarf has been including more rules lately. Maybe people should write to the White Dwarf team and suggest they do a set of renegade rules that mix some chaos marine units with some regular marine units and add in some new warlord traits.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
White Dwarf has been including more rules lately. Maybe people should write to the White Dwarf team and suggest they do a set of renegade rules that mix some chaos marine units with some regular marine units and add in some new warlord traits.

That's waaaaaaay more than what WD has been doing. They've been doing what are effectively alternate Chapter Tactics.

I remain hopeful that one day we'll get a CSM book that is more akin to the vanilla Marines book in terms of access to vehicles and the like. Failing that, a dedicated book ala the Tyrant's Legion from Badab War would be a great setup for Renegades.

I mean, a Tyrant's Legion (or R&H) that didn't suck would be great, but I don't have high hopes. Depending on how thoroughly they test, I don't honestly think it would open up that much that doesn't exist in either codex, and would be a far less radical change than making a full hybrid human/marine army, so, vs. a new chapter tactic, isn't huge...

 Symbio Joe wrote:
Are we talking about icecream again?

If GW didn't understand the analogy back then, then they're sure as hell not going to understand it now...

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
White Dwarf has been including more rules lately. Maybe people should write to the White Dwarf team and suggest they do a set of renegade rules that mix some chaos marine units with some regular marine units and add in some new warlord traits.

That's waaaaaaay more than what WD has been doing. They've been doing what are effectively alternate Chapter Tactics.

I remain hopeful that one day we'll get a CSM book that is more akin to the vanilla Marines book in terms of access to vehicles and the like. Failing that, a dedicated book ala the Tyrant's Legion from Badab War would be a great setup for Renegades.

Well, maybe. If it really could be done with a couple of pages of rules, that's no more than they've been doing. The assassin rules were two pages of rules. Now, I don't think they'd actually do it. I think they'll mostly do oddball scenarios, like the Warhammer Underworlds everyone against the giant thing. The assassin rules I think GW was going to make anyway and put somewhere, they just put them in white dwarf early. I don't think they'd develop an army list like has been described specifically for white dwarf. But still, not reason not to ask. A lot of things people have been asking for have made it into white dwarf.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I mean, a Tyrant's Legion (or R&H) that didn't suck would be great, but I don't have high hopes. Depending on how thoroughly they test, I don't honestly think it would open up that much that doesn't exist in either codex, and would be a far less radical change than making a full hybrid human/marine army, so, vs. a new chapter tactic, isn't huge...

Tyrants Legion is actually my inspiration somewhat for my currently being written CSM homebrew. Cultists can screen anything not a Biker or vehicle/monstrous creature like they're characters until they reach 5 or fewer, in which case they kinda understand they're being used!

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
White Dwarf has been including more rules lately. Maybe people should write to the White Dwarf team and suggest they do a set of renegade rules that mix some chaos marine units with some regular marine units and add in some new warlord traits.

That's waaaaaaay more than what WD has been doing. They've been doing what are effectively alternate Chapter Tactics.

I remain hopeful that one day we'll get a CSM book that is more akin to the vanilla Marines book in terms of access to vehicles and the like. Failing that, a dedicated book ala the Tyrant's Legion from Badab War would be a great setup for Renegades.

Well, maybe. If it really could be done with a couple of pages of rules, that's no more than they've been doing. The assassin rules were two pages of rules. Now, I don't think they'd actually do it. I think they'll mostly do oddball scenarios, like the Warhammer Underworlds everyone against the giant thing. The assassin rules I think GW was going to make anyway and put somewhere, they just put them in white dwarf early. I don't think they'd develop an army list like has been described specifically for white dwarf. But still, not reason not to ask. A lot of things people have been asking for have made it into white dwarf.

I remain hopeful too...

That said, while it wouldn't cover full depth of Renegade, creating new Chapter Tactics/Legion Traits, warlord traits, and relics to represent specific Renegade Chapters with general guidance of units that are and aren't as representative of the Renegade force isn't that far a departure. It wouldn't be a comprehensive rule set for the variety Renegade forces, but doing them one by one they can represent the diversity.