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BigBrown wrote: I find it pretty amusing how GW just keep looking for ways to make Cultists worse. Has there ever been a unit nerfed on three separate occasions within a year?
Commissars/conscripts?
Then there is 7th edition DW, they had 4 iterations of rules, each one worse than the last. And that was on top of complete lack of though on their mixed squads that made most of simple game actions illegal once they were anything but footsloggers...
Slowroll wrote: Havocs move and fire but are locked to 5 man squad size. Not sure I like that.
And there goes all my enthusiasm for this codex!
Wot?
Literally what, I am pretty sure most SM players would kill for devastators with T5 and relentless regardless of unit size.
Also, the CSM priest prayers look ridiculously strong, he is one of the best and most versatile buffers in the game now. Will clowns who complained about him repent now?
Lockark wrote: Of note don't they usely wait like 6+ months before releasing a Start Collecting for a updated army?
xttz wrote: Calling it now... April FAQ / Codex errata fixes them to 115pts, then CA 2019 drops them to ~105
Likely exactly how it happens. It annoys me though that I’m going to have to wait 2 weeks to pick up those oblits to know for sure. Hopefully GW addresses this sooner than that as it’s almost a doubling in price and totally not worth at 115 IMO.
Stolen from another poster on Chaos forum, heres a rundown of vigilus (poor formatting sorry):
I summarised most of the new Vigilus Ablaze stuff.... Long post incoming:
Chaos temrinators can now take chain axes.
T5 havocs that can move and shoot heavy weps with no pentalty (still 14pts base per model)Havocs can only be taken in squads of 5. No more ablative wounds with bolter guys.
Chaos lords and chosen can take thunder hammers.
Abaddon got no point increase or change to his abilities, just the statline and Drachnyen is now 3dmg flat.
Lord Discordant is 12 wounds, T6, 160pts at its lowest cost with an autocannon. 2+ save, gains a wound back each turn and he can heal himself because hes a warpsmith. 12 inch movement.(edited)
Noctilith Crown (stargate) has 24inch bubble, turns doubles rolls into perils for enemy psykers. 6 inch aura of 5++ (models in 6inches) and psykers reroll psychic tests. For turns 2 and 3 the aura range increases by 3 inches. Has a str 7 pistol at 6 inches.
Skull Altar- increases invulns for khorne daemon characters by 1 (max of 3++) gives +1 attack to khorne daemon infantry within 6, increases a characters locus ability to 12 inches and also applies a negative to enemy psychic tests. It can be summoned apparently.
Master of Executions-3.5 Missile launchers in pts, new Dark Apostle 5 Missile Launchers in pts.
Black Legion relic- Foe cleaver axe +3 str, d3 dmg, +1 to hit against imperium units(edited)
Chosen of the warmaster- turns a terminator champion into a "mini abbaddon" (take that how you will)
Chosen Enforcers Stratagem-1CP- autopass morale at 18inches on a unit of "Bringers of Despair"
Devastation Battery detachment- Obliterators, havocs, lord, warpsmiths. Armour bane ability (as previewed), Relic: Daemons eye, gives a unit in the detachment ignore cover once per turn.
punishing volley Stratagem- 1CP-End of your opponents first movement phase, if you didnt get first turn you get to shoot with a unit from this detachment
Cult of the Damned detachment-apostles, disciples, cultists. Warlord trait- reroll failed charges for detachment units within 6inches of him and you get a flamer book that deals d3 damage. 1cp stratagem that makes cultists immune to morale for the rest of the game if they kill a model in melee. Chorus of the true faith-1CP-gives +1 to prayer roll on apostle if cultists nearby (so you can get auto prayer if hes next to his disciples and you use this strat)
Daemonkin Ritualists detachment- Master of possession, apostles, disciples, greater possessed and possessed units. Warlord trait- 6inch aura of 6's to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Vessels of the neverborn-1CP-+1 str to a detachment unit within 6 of a Master of possession. 1CP- slay a posssessed model to gain d3 mortal wounds back to a character Relic- force staff-end of each fight phase, pick a unit withing 1 inch and they suffer a mortal wound.
god theres so much.....
Soulforged pack detachment- warpsmiths and daemon engine units. Warlord trait- +2 to movement of daemon engines within 6 of the warlord. Relic-special mechatendrils- 1 attack for each enemy within 1 inch of the bearer instead of just +2 attacks. 1CP- doubles wounds characteristic of daemon engine 1CP- Allows a daemon wngine to advance and charge
Host Raptoral- ALL Jump pack dudes. Warlord trait, add 2 to charge rolls made for friendly detachment units within 6 inches of the warlord. 1CP- reroll hits in melee for a unit 1CP- more leadership shenanigans (as previewed) Relic: Jump pack (I think?) on a 4+ any unit that is moved over in the movement or charge phases suffers d3 mortal wounds
Fallen Angels detachment-take as a vanguard detachment for Fallen. You can also take rhinos and chaos sorcerers in the detachment. - 1 CP- -1 to hit a unit -1CP-Ancient Emnity- anti-dark angel strat (no other info) Relic- Force Sword- normal stats but a 6 to wound becomes d6 damage.
Legion of Skulls- Only affects Blood Letters (both HQ and Troops). Warlord Trait- +1A base and +1A more if theres an enemy character within 6inches. Relic- Goreplate- Regains d3 wounds on a 4+ if you slay any enemy models (+2 to the roll if he slew a character) 1CP-Deals mortal wounds to something (details werent clear) 2CP- If you successfully charge a unit, then other units get +2 to their charge rolls on the same target
Mere mortals-Chaos Cultists cannot benefit from legion traits.
Black Legion- No real changes to their rules
1CP- Gives an unaligned unit all the chaos marks for a turn. 3CP- Garuntees control of an objective if a Black Legion unit is in range. Regardless of Obsec. 1CP- If a Black Legion outnumbers an enemy unit in CC, +1 attack in cc 1CP- +1Ld to non-Black Legion units within 6 inches of any Black Legion unit 1 CP- If you have a lord, daemon prince or abaddon as warlord, you can gives a warlord trait to a sorceror and apostle. Extra Relic stratagem. Relics: Chainsword- str user, -3AP, 2dmg, +2A. 6+ to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Helmet- -1 BS, +1AP Angelsbane- combi-bolter as previewed Cloak that gives +1A, +1STR, +1LD for each character you slay (stacking for the rest of the game) Leadership shenanigans trophy- +1LD to friendly BL units, -1 LD to enemy units within 6inches Power Sword- +1 STR, -3AP, 1dmg, +d6 attacks Warlord traits: -Fall back and charge -Take half damage from attacks -+1 STR and on a 4+ a charged unit takes d3 mortal wounds -D3 mortal wounds when you destroy a unit. -5+ to get a command point back when you use a stratagem -DTTFE procs on a 5 on him.
Renegade traits: (Preivewed ones ommitted) The Purge- Reroll to hit rolls against units that have lost 1 or more wounds this turn. The Scourge- Reroll 1s to hit in shooting or fighting + overwatch on 5+ Brazen Beasts- any wound roll of 6+ in melee when they have charged, been charged or HI'd gets -4AP Flawless Host- 6+ to hit in the fight phase gets another attack (stacks with DTTFE)
Renegade Warlord Traits: Red Corsairs-free relic and any time your warlord kills a character they get +1 Attack Crimson Slaughter- -1 Leadership to enemies in 6, increases to -2LD in 9 inches if he kills a character. The Purge-Rerolls 1s t wound and rerolls damage rolls. The Scourged-3inches makes units always fight last (like armor of russ) Brazen Beasts- +2 Str and Attacks every time you kill a character. Flawless Host-Gets 3 extra attacks when you roll a 6+ to hit.
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it) Brazen Beasts-1CP-At the end of the fight phase pick an enemy unit within 1 inch of a brazen beasts daemon engine, roll a d6, on 2-4 it summons d3 mortal wounds, on a 5 or 6 it suffers 3 mortal wounds. Crimson Slaughter- At the start of the enemy shooting phase, when they shoot at one f your units pick a terrain piece and any enemy units within 3 inches of it get -1 to hit till the end of the phase. Flawless Host-1CP-Reroll failed hit rolls for a unit in melee for the phase.
Renegade Relics: Red Corsairs-special combi melta (str 9 meltagun) Crimson Slaughter- Power sword-+1 str, -3AP. If a model is slain in the fight phase then for the rest of the battle, it auto-wounds everything. The Purge- grenade- thrown 8 inches at a point. Roll a d6 for each unit within d6 inches of that points (subtracting 2 vs vehicles). on a 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds. The Scourged- Any time an enemy psyker manifests a power within 18inches, on a 5+ they suffer a mortal wound. Daemonflesh Plate- 2+ armour save, +1 movement and +1 attack. Flawless host- Cloak that gives +1Attack, increases aura range by 3 inches.
Apologies for the awful formatting....
This is exactly why we say wait for the effin' book. +2 to charges for raptors....+2 move for daemon engines. Good god.
Not +2 to charges for raptors. +2 to charges for warp talons.
...GW has gotta realize they designed raptors as a shooting unit eventually, right? Oh well, in the mean time we can enjoy Flawless Host Warp Talons having a reliable deep strike charge and obliterating anything they come in contact with.
The relic for that detachment is pretty funny, too. Unless I'm misunderstanding it you can pop it twice a turn, moving over them during your movement and then moving back to the other side during your charge phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/23 15:36:21
2019/03/23 15:35:27
Subject: Re:Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines
That's not bad for a unit of 5 being 160 with chain axes and combis. Could be a cheap distraction unit or ablative wounds for a deepstriking character.
Arachnofiend wrote: Not +2 to charges for raptors. +2 to charges for warp talons.
...GW has gotta realize they designed raptors as a shooting unit eventually, right? Oh well, in the mean time we can enjoy Flawless Host Warp Talons having a reliable deep strike charge and obliterating anything they come in contact with.
The relic for that detachment is pretty funny, too. Unless I'm misunderstanding it you can pop it twice a turn, moving over them during your movement and then moving back to the other side during your charge phase.
Atleast everything imperium.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/03/23 15:40:40
Subject: Re:Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it)
sorry WHAT?!
It's Chaos Space Marines. Are you really gonna run a unit of 20 CSM to get value out of this?
Quite possibly if I can get them +1 attack pretty easily. Still a lot to process though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arachnofiend wrote: Not +2 to charges for raptors. +2 to charges for warp talons.
...GW has gotta realize they designed raptors as a shooting unit eventually, right? Oh well, in the mean time we can enjoy Flawless Host Warp Talons having a reliable deep strike charge and obliterating anything they come in contact with.
The relic for that detachment is pretty funny, too. Unless I'm misunderstanding it you can pop it twice a turn, moving over them during your movement and then moving back to the other side during your charge phase.
Either way - 7 inch charge for guys that ignore overwatch - yes please.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/23 15:43:27
Raptors actually have a better chance to get in, because they can take Icon of wrath if they are Khorne. So, 7 inch charge with a reroll on the charge ...
Raptors aren't going to do much of anything once they're in with their chainswords, though. Re-roll wounds is a damn good rule, a warp talon can punch quite a bit above its weight class in a way that raptors just can't replicate.
Hmmm, I supposed you can take a Khorne detachment and deep strike it in along with the Khorne warp talons. The Loci for Khorne gives a reroll to charge for all khorne daemons within 6 inches (which warp talons are). Its more inconvenient though.
Yes, they are expensive. But If you are taking a Khorne detachment of bloodletters, then I guess the warp talons can first charge in without fear of overwatch and tie up everything, and the blood letters can follow. Might be a case of overkill. Especially now that CSM can take 5 combi bolter+chain axe terminators. Maybe easier to just use those. They are at least more resilient than warp talons.
I got ten warp talons who has hardly ever seen any action though, so it would be fantastic if I could try them out.
Well chaincannon is definetly outrageous and it is not limited to Havoc only. Running it with 5-man CSM squad (Champ wtih Combi-bolter) is quite viable option.
And it just made basic heavy bolter obsolete unless it is very expensive or heavy bolter is very cheap.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/23 17:09:16
This must be a new record low, I don't see one mention of the Emperor's Children in that article.
such a dribble of informaton. So frustrating. Seems sonic weapon profiles are back? or where they always? I've only played one game of 8th before shelving the game.
I want to do EC so much, but this told us nearly nothing based on my knowledge base.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/23 17:11:16
~ Shrap
Rolling 1's for five and a half decades.
AoS * Konflikt '47 * Conquest Last Argument of Kings * Trench Crusade * Horus Heresy * The Old World * Armoured Clash
I could see myself using the lord discordant as a replacement for a juggerlord.
maybe minus thje autocannon on the model, that thing looks a bit ridiculous.
We pretty much know we are getting World Eaters and Emperors Children books sometime this edition. Why paint up the generic CSM models when they know they have some zany Emperors Children specific ones to show off in the coming months.
Heck Im more disappointing that the Khorne article had the classic Khorne Bezerkers in it since that means no new kit for at least a bit longer.
2019/03/23 17:55:31
Subject: Re:Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines
Roknar wrote: I could see myself using the lord discordant as a replacement for a juggerlord.
maybe minus thje autocannon on the model, that thing looks a bit ridiculous.
Use the Baleflamer instead. For a model that wants to get up close, the Autocannon loses appeal.
Also for the complaints about Havocs and the new squad size...really?
Nobody was running them in a large number anyway, and for just a point more a model they now have T5 and old Relentless. What's the problem exactly?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/03/23 18:04:31
Subject: Re:Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines
Roknar wrote: I could see myself using the lord discordant as a replacement for a juggerlord.
maybe minus thje autocannon on the model, that thing looks a bit ridiculous.
Use the Baleflamer instead. For a model that wants to get up close, the Autocannon loses appeal.
Also for the complaints about Havocs and the new squad size...really?
Nobody was running them in a large number anyway, and for just a point more a model they now have T5 and old Relentless. What's the problem exactly?
Yea I was talking about the model itself. Would have to incorporate the flamer into the mouth of the mount or so I guess to stay wysiwyg, but having a big gun on a combat mount just looks weird and out of place to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/23 18:04:53
2019/03/23 18:06:33
Subject: Re:Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines
Roknar wrote: I could see myself using the lord discordant as a replacement for a juggerlord.
maybe minus thje autocannon on the model, that thing looks a bit ridiculous.
Use the Baleflamer instead. For a model that wants to get up close, the Autocannon loses appeal.
Also for the complaints about Havocs and the new squad size...really?
Nobody was running them in a large number anyway, and for just a point more a model they now have T5 and old Relentless. What's the problem exactly?
Yea I was talking about the model itself. Would have to incorporate the flamer into the mouth of the mount or so I guess to stay wysiwyg, but having a big gun on a combat mount just looks weird and out of place to me.
Understandable. Maybe the Heldrake head will fit comfortably?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, to be fair, if we want shooty CSM, its basically slanaash CSM, and Emperor's children are the poster boy for slanaash CSM.
eh. Previously, just the noise marines, and maybe not even then. EC are better as close combat specialists thanks to always fight first, as it lets you effectively 'cheat' every combat phase. Like most marine armies, you want to dump the basics for the Effective-at-killing stuff, but it can be quite effective.
The new havocs wont care if they're emperors children or not. It has no meaningful effect
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, to be fair, if we want shooty CSM, its basically slanaash CSM, and Emperor's children are the poster boy for slanaash CSM.
eh. Previously, just the noise marines, and maybe not even then. EC are better as close combat specialists thanks to always fight first, as it lets you effectively 'cheat' every combat phase. Like most marine armies, you want to dump the basics for the Effective-at-killing stuff, but it can be quite effective.
The new havocs wont care if they're emperors children or not. It has no meaningful effect
Did ya just forget about Endless Cacophony or
2019/03/23 18:18:08
Subject: Re:Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines
Roknar wrote: I could see myself using the lord discordant as a replacement for a juggerlord.
maybe minus thje autocannon on the model, that thing looks a bit ridiculous.
Use the Baleflamer instead. For a model that wants to get up close, the Autocannon loses appeal.
Also for the complaints about Havocs and the new squad size...really?
Nobody was running them in a large number anyway, and for just a point more a model they now have T5 and old Relentless. What's the problem exactly?
Yea I was talking about the model itself. Would have to incorporate the flamer into the mouth of the mount or so I guess to stay wysiwyg, but having a big gun on a combat mount just looks weird and out of place to me.
Understandable. Maybe the Heldrake head will fit comfortably?
The Helstalker already has a choice of weapons for its mouth...
Spoiler:
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim