Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Cryptek of Awesome**

Mentlegen324 wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Even the scale difference between Primaris and the new Chaos Space Marines sort takes a little wind out of the sails of regular marines.

For me it's reverse. Chaos marines still being proper scale for space marines rather than head taller primaris makes sense. Would be silly to start to retcon why marines from age of heresy suddenly grew up full head taller.
Likewise. If anything, it gives me a glimmer of hope that GW isn't totally done with Regular Space Marines. Even if all we get are more series of Space Marine Heroes, that is better than nothing (and great for my Kill Team!). If they had made the new CSM stuff Primaris-sized without adjusting their stats, I would have been very disappointed.

I don't think it would have made any sense to make these new Chaos Marines Primaris-sized, lots of people say things like "Primaris are just true-scale Marines!" but that idea has some pretty strange implications. Space Marine kits aren't quite accurate to their proper scale in relation to other models so yes, Primaris marines are closer to the scale they should have, but the problem with saying they're meant to be true-scale Marines is that they're just meant to be bigger than standard Space Marines. They have a lore reason for being a larger model as they have increased height compared to normal Space Marines. So at the moment Primaris Models are the right scale to represent Primaris marines, if Chaos Marines had been suddenly bought up to that scale then you'd just move the problem around and have wrongly scaled Primaris marines and recent models like in Blackstone Fortress still wrong.

I think what people mean when they say that, is that GW wanted to make updated marine models in a more correct scale but needed (or wanted) to do it in a way that wouldn't enrage all Marine players. Basically they felt there was a market demand for Marines of that size and just wrote some fluff to explain their existence. Then the conspiratorial addendum is that eventually they'll just drop the other Marines and Primariss-sized marines will just be marines.

**Nightlord1987**

Is there really no Mark restricions on the Renegades? Because it seems super cheezy to have Slaaneshi Purge or Khorne Flawless Host....

**Not Online!!!**

Nightlord1987 wrote:
Is there really no Mark restricions on the Renegades? Because it seems super cheezy to have Slaaneshi Purge or Khorne Flawless Host....

Purge is a renegade option as is Flawless Host, you pick one per detachment.

Edit: Phone is euughh

**drbored**

Haven't seen any rule that says you must have x or y mark to take x or y renegade trait. Could be in some sidebar we haven't seen yet, or there might not be one at all.

Remember, marks don't really give you anything. It's the icons and other things around them that do.

**BrianDavion**

drbored wrote:
Haven't seen any rule that says you must have x or y mark to take x or y renegade trait. Could be in some sidebar we haven't seen yet, or there might not be one at all.

Remember, marks don't really give you anything. It's the icons and other things around them that do.

true but the marks mean you can't have certains stratigiums etc

**Dumah**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Nightlord1987 wrote:
Is there really no Mark restricions on the Renegades? Because it seems super cheezy to have Slaaneshi Purge or Khorne Flawless Host....

Purge is a renegade option as is Flawless Host, you pick one per detachment.

Edit: Phone is euughh

I think you're missing the point...

What he means is: you can take a Trait for a Renegade faction that is, fluff-wise, dedicated to a particular god, but then give them Marks from a different god. There are no evident restrictions on this besides our loyalty to fluff and self-respect.

Edit: Ninja'd

**Not Online!!!**

Dumah wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Nightlord1987 wrote:
Is there really no Mark restricions on the Renegades? Because it seems super cheezy to have Slaaneshi Purge or Khorne Flawless Host....

Purge is a renegade option as is Flawless Host, you pick one per detachment.

Edit: Phone is euughh

I think you're missing the point...

What he means is: you can take a Trait for a Renegade faction that is, fluff-wise, dedicated to a particular god, but then give them Marks from a different god. There are no evident restrictions on this besides our loyalty to fluff and self-respect.

So far that we don't know, we have purge, Flawless, the tzeenchian and one khornate aswell as the red Corsairs.
I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.

**Nightlord1987**

Yea, just seems like an oversight to have Slaaneshi Endless Cacophony Oblits using the Purge Chapter trait.

Or an exploding 6s Flawless Host Chaos Lord marked Khorne using the fight twice Stratagem.

But I'm sure we will be seeing it soon enough.

**H.B.M.C.**

Marks aren't what they used to be.

**warboss**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Marks aren't what they used to be.

I did miss Undivided when they started taking it away. I suppose they couldn't think of a dedicated model kit to use it with so nixed it. :(

**Arachnofiend**

Not Online!!! wrote:
I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.

That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.

**Eldenfirefly**

Don't think there are any restrictions to renegade chapters for marks. Actually, in 8th edition, I think you can even stuff different marks of troops into the same Rhino now. And the Rhino itself can also bear a different mark of chaos than the troops it transports. lol You could have a unit of reaper chain cannon havocs with mark of slanaash in the Rhino along with a unit of 5 berserkers. Nothing will happen, the berserkers won't kill anyone in the Rhino, and the Rhino won't eat anyone either...lol

**H.B.M.C.**

warboss wrote:
I did miss Undivided when they started taking it away. I suppose they couldn't think of a dedicated model kit to use it with so nixed it. :(

From what was explained to me it was more a case of there is no such thing as "Undivided" (with a capital "U"). You can be dedicated to the four Chaos Gods, or you can be unaligned (small 'u').

Avoiding "Undivided" was a big thing when doing the Black Crusade RPG.

**Uriels_Flame**

What page was Cypher reviewed? I would like to know I can take fallen and add a few Obliterators to the mix.

**YeOldSaltPotato**

Arachnofiend wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.

That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.

If black crusade is anything to go by then there are ways to make your own fresh if you know the right rituals and have the materials. Far lesser versions of the rubric effectively.

**warboss**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
warboss wrote:
I did miss Undivided when they started taking it away. I suppose they couldn't think of a dedicated model kit to use it with so nixed it. :(
From what was explained to me it was more a case of there is no such thing as "Undivided" (with a capital "U"). You can be dedicated to the four Chaos Gods, or you can be unaligned (small 'u').

Avoiding "Undivided" was a big thing when doing the Black Crusade RPG.

I appreciate the explanation but I preferred the more balanced sounding "Undivided" moniker where you worship aspects of all four gods as opposed to something that sounds you simply haven't picked your major in college yet. It might as well have been changed to undecided.

**Red Corsair**

NM wrong thread lol.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nothing stops you from using the generic Captain. Librarians and Chaplains and Techmarines (formerly the Master of the Forge) have super limited options in the first place. They would never have fit your "build your army" standard.

I don't play marines. It's about the signal that GW is sending us about how they think about their game.
And good luck trying to find a convincing count-as for Guilliman in a custom chapter…

warboss wrote:
Don't be ridiculous. Chaos players can *NEVER* be happy. Whining online is their version of the Long War regardless of what GW does or how many boxes they check off on that playerbase's wishlist like new models, demon primarchs, legion rules, etc. Until there is a return to the 3.5 Codex days where Chaos reigned supreme, they will continue their unhappy little rebellion.

Don't be the half-sibbling of the lord of Maccrage for Chaos players.

**drbored**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
warboss wrote:
I did miss Undivided when they started taking it away. I suppose they couldn't think of a dedicated model kit to use it with so nixed it. :(
From what was explained to me it was more a case of there is no such thing as "Undivided" (with a capital "U"). You can be dedicated to the four Chaos Gods, or you can be unaligned (small 'u').

Avoiding "Undivided" was a big thing when doing the Black Crusade RPG.

Yep. Marks used to give a tangible bonus. Now, they're just a way to unlock icons. There's the stratagems too but... eh? Not a big fan of the whole stratagem/cp system considering where we are with it right now.

Still, the point is probably that these Renegade Warbands aren't as devoted to a single god as some of the mono-god Legions are.

**Sersi**

Dumah wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Nightlord1987 wrote:
Is there really no Mark restricions on the Renegades? Because it seems super cheezy to have Slaaneshi Purge or Khorne Flawless Host....

Purge is a renegade option as is Flawless Host, you pick one per detachment.

Edit: Phone is euughh

I think you're missing the point...

What he means is: you can take a Trait for a Renegade faction that is, fluff-wise, dedicated to a particular god, but then give them Marks from a different god. There are no evident restrictions on this besides our loyalty to fluff and self-respect.

Edit: Ninja'd

I wouldn't worry about it to much its probably an oversight that will be corrected in an FAQ.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
aka_mythos wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:

Not really. Plenty of Novels like Pandorax or Malodrax or Death of Antagonis or the Salamander Novels or whatever where Chaos Marines are mostly fodder and die in droves, even to Catachans, etc...

GW Bolter-Pron lives by sending Spikey Marines into the meat grinder typically 40K-ridiculous numbers.

As far as your novel selection goes it underscores one thing... When Chaos is the antagonist and needs to lose they bring CSM as fodder; when Chaos are the protagonist they're veteran marines that bring Cultists as fodder and mostly win. To that degree, GW's done a great job of translating the lore onto the tabletop, however most CSM players are here to be protagonists in their own narrative and not being pushed into taking the version of a CSM army that's depicted as losing in the lore and struggles on the tabletop.

Any CSM stupid enough to fight as fodder would have long ago been killed, leaving only veterans.

Armies are allowed to have more than one viable way to play; they're allowed to have more than one viable troop choice. Many of the points changes and tweaks are happening due to feedback from events. If the inner circle of people who report back to GW say "we're only seeing Cultists" we get what we got. I think its something of a disservice in this instance and seems to be driven by the orthodoxy to be like loyalist and that it says Space Marines so it should mostly be that... but there isn't anything that really says CSM need to have that same sort of balance of different units. With Space Marines in general being cookie cutter, I think anything that allows a type of "SM" army to deviate from whats typical is more distinctive and offers a more varied opportunity for game play.

Hey look, someone gets my reasoning behind Chosen as the main troops and deleting the basic Chaos Marine entry!

It is certainly an option, problem is though, chosen ain't that great either.

I'd actually say that Chosen are fantastic in the same manner as using Company Vets: keep them cheap and double their firepower.

Main difference is now that 6th member is most definitely carrying a Rotor Cannon instead of...well something else.

**Not Online!!!**

Arachnofiend wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.

That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.

Hiring, don't forget that the sorcerers also from time to time work as mercs.

**Waaaghbert**

drbored wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
warboss wrote:
I did miss Undivided when they started taking it away. I suppose they couldn't think of a dedicated model kit to use it with so nixed it. :(
From what was explained to me it was more a case of there is no such thing as "Undivided" (with a capital "U"). You can be dedicated to the four Chaos Gods, or you can be unaligned (small 'u').

Avoiding "Undivided" was a big thing when doing the Black Crusade RPG.

Yep. Marks used to give a tangible bonus. Now, they're just a way to unlock icons. There's the stratagems too but... eh? Not a big fan of the whole stratagem/cp system considering where we are with it right now.

Still, the point is probably that these Renegade Warbands aren't as devoted to a single god as some of the mono-god Legions are.

Totaly agree....I took a break from 40k a few years ago, and when I came back I was baffled that marks did not give any bonus whatsoever (except icons and strats)

**H.B.M.C.**

Never forget that for one portion of Chaos' existence there, the effects of Marks were supplanted by Icons, and Chaos Marines would forget what God they were dedicated to if the Iconbearer died.

**Snugiraffe**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Never forget that for one portion of Chaos' existence there, the effects of Marks were supplanted by Icons, and Chaos Marines would forget what God they were dedicated to if the Iconbearer died.

I hated that so much.

To be honest, I think the current system isn't actually that bad from a fluff perspective. In a way, it reflects quite well how fickle the Chaos Gods really are. You (a CSM) dedicate your existence fully to one of the Four but you will actually reap any benefits that translate to the game on the tabletop only rarely, namely when one of those strats is popped for you or a Sorcerer helps things along.
For those whose dedication and worship goes beyond and into the realms of true insanity, well, they turn into the cult CSM. A CSM dedicated to Khorne would usually perhaps only be pretty adept at using a chainsword but otherwise simply suffer from anger management issues. He could occasionally (conceivably - it's not that likely to happen on the tabletop) become possessed by a blind, bezerk rage in the midst of battle and attack a second time. A Berzerker, however, always has +1S and +1A, which could be interpreted as Khorne's favour. Same works for the other marks, too.

I'll admit this reasoning is more difficult to apply to CSM daemon engines, who don't get the benefits corresponding to the respective possessing entities (like Quicksilver Swiftness, for example).

**Arachnofiend**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.

That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.

Hiring, don't forget that the sorcerers also from time to time work as mercs.

Yeah, if only there was some way to represent the minority of Rubric Marines the Scourged may have at their disposal. Maybe if they were in a different slot, so they still have to run their own guys as their core troop but can potentially take Rubric Marines in a more limited fashion in the way that the other, non-Thousand Sons legions do. If only such a thing existed.

**Mandragola**

Could it be that it's deliberate not to fix renegade marines to particular cults?

After all, they aren't meant to be an exhaustive list of all the traitor marines. It seems pretty reasonable to come up with a homebrew renegade list using the rules for whichever renegade chapter you like, and have them worship any of the gods.

**skonis**

Mandragola wrote:
Could it be that it's deliberate not to fix renegade marines to particular cults?

After all, they aren't meant to be an exhaustive list of all the traitor marines. It seems pretty reasonable to come up with a homebrew renegade list using the rules for whichever renegade chapter you like, and have them worship any of the gods.

It perfectly could be. The only thing is that it runs into The Tale of Two 40ks", because on the one hand you have the fluffy, narrative lists made to explore the lore and for the joy of fielding an interesting force (that are really helped along by these kinds of flexible rules, allowing more unique and flavorful combinations), and hard, competitive lists made to optimize the faction and with the goal of fielding a powerful force (which will milk those flexible rules for everything they can).

I enjoy the creative freedom these new rules give, but I recognise that some people will use them to build disgustingly efficient combos.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Mandragola wrote:
Could it be that it's deliberate not to fix renegade marines to particular cults?

After all, they aren't meant to be an exhaustive list of all the traitor marines. It seems pretty reasonable to come up with a homebrew renegade list using the rules for whichever renegade chapter you like, and have them worship any of the gods.

Well The Purged were always represented by Death Guard in the first place as they were a Death Guard warband. The need to differentiate them is weird to me.

**Not Online!!!**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Could it be that it's deliberate not to fix renegade marines to particular cults?

After all, they aren't meant to be an exhaustive list of all the traitor marines. It seems pretty reasonable to come up with a homebrew renegade list using the rules for whichever renegade chapter you like, and have them worship any of the gods.

Well The Purged were always represented by Death Guard in the first place as they were a Death Guard warband. The need to differentiate them is weird to me.

THe pruge, would be a candidate for plague marines no?

also were are the Celaved, i think they would've been a better candidate technically for Renegades ?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arachnofiend wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.

That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.

Hiring, don't forget that the sorcerers also from time to time work as mercs.

Yeah, if only there was some way to represent the minority of Rubric Marines the Scourged may have at their disposal. Maybe if they were in a different slot, so they still have to run their own guys as their core troop but can potentially take Rubric Marines in a more limited fashion in the way that the other, non-Thousand Sons legions do. If only such a thing existed.

You wound me, but in case of the Purge Plaguemarines make sense since they are a splintter of the deathguard.
Also Berzeker Chirurgeons do exist.

And the Flawless host also has a modus operandi close enough to the emperors Children.

But i get your point.