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Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I'm getting a bit tired of this whole "nEw KiTs ArE lEsS cUsToMiZaBle" That's not entirely correct, in fact- it's only a tiny bit correct.
Yeah, I just built a squad of the Old Chaos Space Marines and while they are some of my most unique posed, it wasn't due to the kit itself. I am not fussed at all about the waist being one pose with the new kit. I would have to really look at my old CSM models to even notice they slight rotation I put in them. Adeptus Doritos is correct about the arms. There are about 6 different poses including the chainsword and pistol options with the old kit. All of the bolter/melta/plasma/flamer arms are the same save three types of doo-dad (spike, rivets, skull), and yield three general poses (firing, weapon up, weapon down). The old power packs also don't have much variation. A quick look at the new CSM sprue and it looks like the arms all have slightly different bends to varied between models and look better over all without a good deal of modeling work.
As for customization, I took inspiration from the Shadowspear CSM for poses as the bolt pistol and chainsword monoposes look way better than anything default the old kit could do. And chopping the old kit to pose them similarly was about as much as I would imagine chopping up the monopose to get a little extra mileage out them. And that is before the new CSM kit. I am going to hold off building mine until my Havocs arrive as for the foreseeable future the new kit are going to be my Chosen and loaded up with special weapons most likely with the old CSM continuing to be my Troop marines.
Honestly, I think there are at least 30 really good looking poses out new CSM kit if you count Shadowspear. I personally think after about 30, maybe even 20, and repeats are much of an issue so long as the twin models are right next to each other. They just get lost in the crowd at that point. I know as much as I try to make each model its own thing, that greatly fades away once they are in the game anyways.
forgeworld upgrade kits would like to have a word with the two of you. as well as third party producers.
Some amount of monopose kits are fine, like when they release them in a boxed game. But they should go the extra length to make them more modular in their standalone kits.
Or half and half like they did with the new csm kit. It's not even about fitting mlore on a sprue, they could fit modular bodies and every weapon PLUS an icon into rubrics with three sprues.
There's no reason they would need monopose kits
Hold up there.
I love modularity. I really do.
But I jumped right into creating a Thousand Sons army when those kits came out, for the first time in nearly a decade, and.... WOW. I was so bored by that twelfth torso, fifteenth set of legs, etc... I stalled badly a number of times.
I actually agree with you on the standard Chaos kit. Sticking with the Rubrics, I'd have preferred it to be the other way round: Rubrics with monopose legs+torsos attached (because, as I remember, you couldn't actually rotate their torsos much anyway), to cut down on the assembly, while the standard chaos marines have separate legs and torsos, as well as separate tabards, etc. BUT I also appreciate that this really begins to take up sprue real estate that wasn't entirely needed for the Thousand Sons who had far less wargear options.
Swings and roundabouts. I can see why either approach is taken, and advantages and disadvantages to both.
What it comes down to to me is this: The new Chaos Marines look really good. And converters (like me) will convert regardless of the relative difficulty.
Speaking of, has anyone noticed that Obliterator points are not listed in Vigilus. Do we have any information on the *actual* points cost of Obliterators?
The mini-dex in Shadowspear has the points values for the models in the box. 115 pts for an Oblit. I guess that's as official as it gets and the 65 points listed in Codex V2 should reasonably be considered a misprint (yeah, that's currently only an opinion until we get the FAQ, but come on!).
Does not Codexes take precedence? What has GW actually said about this issue?
Speaking of, has anyone noticed that Obliterator points are not listed in Vigilus. Do we have any information on the *actual* points cost of Obliterators?
The mini-dex in Shadowspear has the points values for the models in the box. 115 pts for an Oblit. I guess that's as official as it gets and the 65 points listed in Codex V2 should reasonably be considered a misprint (yeah, that's currently only an opinion until we get the FAQ, but come on!).
Does not Codexes take precedence? What has GW actually said about this issue?
nothing yet the FAQ'll address it. logic would dictate that we use the shadowspear cost, as the codex points are almost certainly a misprint. at the same time, precident is that we use the codex cost.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Speaking of, has anyone noticed that Obliterator points are not listed in Vigilus. Do we have any information on the *actual* points cost of Obliterators?
The mini-dex in Shadowspear has the points values for the models in the box. 115 pts for an Oblit. I guess that's as official as it gets and the 65 points listed in Codex V2 should reasonably be considered a misprint (yeah, that's currently only an opinion until we get the FAQ, but come on!).
Does not Codexes take precedence? What has GW actually said about this issue?
nothing yet the FAQ'll address it. logic would dictate that we use the shadowspear cost, as the codex points are almost certainly a misprint. at the same time, precedent is that we use the codex cost.
That was my understanding. Hopefully they have received enough complaints they'll leave the codex cost as is, the shadowspear cost is absurd.
With how arbitrary GW point costs can be or how bad rules can be for some models I don't think we should leap to "it must be a misprint". After all, csm 2.0 is a newer book than shadowspear.
Is it a misprint? Probably. Yet they're also flat out bad at balancing pretty much anything so who knows!
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2019/04/01 18:09:52
Subject: Re:Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines
The reason it's pretty much 100% a misprint is that it lists the unit size of Obliterators as 3, not 1-3 as the new datasheet does. So the Obliterators at 65 points, unit of 3...is straight out of the old codex and is incorrect.
Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I'm getting a bit tired of this whole "nEw KiTs ArE lEsS cUsToMiZaBle" That's not entirely correct, in fact- it's only a tiny bit correct.
Yeah, I just built a squad of the Old Chaos Space Marines and while they are some of my most unique posed, it wasn't due to the kit itself. I am not fussed at all about the waist being one pose with the new kit. I would have to really look at my old CSM models to even notice they slight rotation I put in them. Adeptus Doritos is correct about the arms. There are about 6 different poses including the chainsword and pistol options with the old kit. All of the bolter/melta/plasma/flamer arms are the same save three types of doo-dad (spike, rivets, skull), and yield three general poses (firing, weapon up, weapon down). The old power packs also don't have much variation. A quick look at the new CSM sprue and it looks like the arms all have slightly different bends to varied between models and look better over all without a good deal of modeling work.
As for customization, I took inspiration from the Shadowspear CSM for poses as the bolt pistol and chainsword monoposes look way better than anything default the old kit could do. And chopping the old kit to pose them similarly was about as much as I would imagine chopping up the monopose to get a little extra mileage out them. And that is before the new CSM kit. I am going to hold off building mine until my Havocs arrive as for the foreseeable future the new kit are going to be my Chosen and loaded up with special weapons most likely with the old CSM continuing to be my Troop marines.
Honestly, I think there are at least 30 really good looking poses out new CSM kit if you count Shadowspear. I personally think after about 30, maybe even 20, and repeats are much of an issue so long as the twin models are right next to each other. They just get lost in the crowd at that point. I know as much as I try to make each model its own thing, that greatly fades away once they are in the game anyways.
forgeworld upgrade kits would like to have a word with the two of you. as well as third party producers.
Some amount of monopose kits are fine, like when they release them in a boxed game. But they should go the extra length to make them more modular in their standalone kits.
Or half and half like they did with the new csm kit. It's not even about fitting mlore on a sprue, they could fit modular bodies and every weapon PLUS an icon into rubrics with three sprues.
There's no reason they would need monopose kits
Hold up there.
I love modularity. I really do.
But I jumped right into creating a Thousand Sons army when those kits came out, for the first time in nearly a decade, and.... WOW. I was so bored by that twelfth torso, fifteenth set of legs, etc... I stalled badly a number of times.
I actually agree with you on the standard Chaos kit. Sticking with the Rubrics, I'd have preferred it to be the other way round: Rubrics with monopose legs+torsos attached (because, as I remember, you couldn't actually rotate their torsos much anyway), to cut down on the assembly, while the standard chaos marines have separate legs and torsos, as well as separate tabards, etc. BUT I also appreciate that this really begins to take up sprue real estate that wasn't entirely needed for the Thousand Sons who had far less wargear options.
Swings and roundabouts. I can see why either approach is taken, and advantages and disadvantages to both.
What it comes down to to me is this: The new Chaos Marines look really good. And converters (like me) will convert regardless of the relative difficulty.
I could see an argument be made for line infantry vs more elite stuff. Especially hordes.
I had bought into manic zombies and I started to get sick of them after a while, so I get what you mean. And it doesn't take 100 models for fatigue to set in.
When I look at kits, I often want modular arms, back packs and heads. Modular torsos are good as well but I do not think they are 100% necessary. I just want a ton of bitz so I can make my dudesmen look cool and different than other people's dudesmen.
If everyone's dudesmen look the same, we may as well just go back to the 3-piece Blackreach marines, which would cut down a lot on assembly time which means I could get my stuff painted and on the battlefield a lot faster.
As for pouches and the like, I am 100% happy to have those molded on the body because the sculptor will take the time to craft them appropriately. None of the old tactical marine pouches or grenades were sized properly for the model. I mean some of the pouches were more like small backpacks, awkwardly fastened to a belt than a real pouch.
Kirasu wrote: With how arbitrary GW point costs can be or how bad rules can be for some models I don't think we should leap to "it must be a misprint". After all, csm 2.0 is a newer book than shadowspear.
Is it a misprint? Probably. Yet they're also flat out bad at balancing pretty much anything so who knows!
It probably is a misprint, but even if it is a misprint, at this moment that fact doesn't really mean much. Point costs are one of the few things that have such an absolute interpretation that even IF GW intended some other point cost there isn't any basis to say its one cost or another over what's printed. People are pointing to the rules in the Shadowspear set as a basis for "intention", but if I remember correctly GW just as quickly changed the rules and costs of the Armiger when it was introduced in Forgebane and revised with the Knight codex. Its a pretty flimsy position to argue that something that is intended to be superseded by the codex some how doesn't. In several of these boxed sets we've seen GW set points differently than the final codex rules, and its usually to make the rules match what's in the box. To reiterate we can't rely on the boxed sets to govern how we interpret the codex.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Can anyone confirm if there are any specialist detachments for Thousand Sons described in the Vigilus book?
There is not.
Nothing for Death Guard either.
Correct. Though neither of them are on Vigilus, so it makes sense.
Whats that listed right under the Black Legion then? Note that i dont see the Red Corsairs listed, but they got stuff.
Huh. I was wrong then. Weird omission by GW. Especially since they talk about the Red Corsairs elsewhere as if they were there (they are forming the blockade around Vigilus).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 22:43:33
Kirasu wrote: Is it a misprint? Probably. Yet they're also flat out bad at balancing pretty much anything so who knows!
Personally I'm waiting for them to tell us that T5 was a misprint.
They mentioned it in the tactica, it wasn't a misprint. Also makes absolutely no sense to me. Between that an the chaingun, the stats are going ridiculous…
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Kirasu wrote: Is it a misprint? Probably. Yet they're also flat out bad at balancing pretty much anything so who knows!
Personally I'm waiting for them to tell us that T5 was a misprint.
LOL 3.5e v2 CSM nerfing my three units of IW oblits from T5 to T4(5) was a memorable GW moment for me.
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topaxygouroun i wrote: Can anyone confirm if there are any specialist detachments for Thousand Sons described in the Vigilus book?
There is not.
Nothing for Death Guard either.
Correct. Though neither of them are on Vigilus, so it makes sense.
There are Death Guard on Vigilis, they are one of the earlier threats to manifest. A plague ship lands in one of the city spaceports and a small band of Death Guard pop out, spreading Nugleyness and Gellerpox and ravaging one of the hive sprawls.
Marius Xerxes wrote: Death Guard and The Purge got into a fight on Vigilus over their differing aspects of Nurgle and fought each other to a stalemate if I read correctly.
you did which honestly I thought was a really neat twist that showed that not everyone worships the gods in the same way
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/04/03 13:57:04
Subject: Re:Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines
I'm pleasantly surprised GW would present a kit-bash article. I've always LOVED conversions but recently GW seems to be allergic to acknowledging them, much less telling how to do them (outside of WD anyway)
Galef wrote: I'm pleasantly surprised GW would present a kit-bash article. I've always LOVED conversions but recently GW seems to be allergic to acknowledging them, much less telling how to do them (outside of WD anyway)
Good job GW!
-
GW has always presented kitbashes using 100% of their own products for decades; I'm not sure why them doing so yet again would be a surprise. Now, if they instead went back to using things like toy/model kits from other companies along with everyday household products instead then that would be a pleasant surprise.
I do love that they don't mention the use of FW Rotor Cannons on the one squad.
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Galef wrote: I'm pleasantly surprised GW would present a kit-bash article. I've always LOVED conversions but recently GW seems to be allergic to acknowledging them, much less telling how to do them (outside of WD anyway)
Good job GW!
-
GW has always presented kitbashes using 100% of their own products for decades; I'm not sure why them doing so yet again would be a surprise. Now, if they instead went back to using things like toy/model kits from other companies along with everyday household products instead then that would be a pleasant surprise.
Warhammer TV has done several kitbash tutorials as well.
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