Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines

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**dan2026**

Tpiddy wrote:
Im hoping down the line they will release a multi part plastic for the oblits. Points be damned i love the models!

Me too I already have 6 lol.
I may have gone a little far in a few places...

**Slayer-Fan123**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?

Don't think people will be bringing havoc units with 4 chaincannons either honestly. With no ablative wounds, it's like paying dark reaper points for nothing like dark reaper output or survivability. The chainreaper cannon is the new hotness for 5-man CSM units though holding a midfield objective with the new bolter beta rule.

You're really not understanding how good the weapon is, huh?

I understand it's a weapon with 30" range (movement included), on a single wound 3+ dude that has to footslog with it. If you play first and bring 2 units, I'll just deploy out of your 30". In my turn, with each one of the armies I own I will:

1. Shoot them with biovores or hive guard if you keep them hidden, with practically anything if I can see them.
2. Fly my sorcerers and DP's up and throw them my mortal wound powers (infernal gaze, tzeentc's firestorm, doombolt, bolt of change). Yup got four of them.
3. Shoot them with SMS if I cannot see them, with anything in my Tau army if I can.

I suspect every army will have a way or two for dealing with them.

Chainreaper havocs are a one trick pony, with all their 1 ablative wound and all. They are 34 points per wound, which is almost dark reaper expensive without having the range, damage potential, tricks or survivability of reapers. I think the meta will survive the chaineraper onslaught rather efortlessly.

Literally all those things apply to Dark Reapers, and that damage potential is of a different preferred target and you know that

**DiscoKing**

New Terminator next to Intercessor

**Saturmorn Carvilli**

Galef wrote:
RF3 HBs are the answer. It will set them apart from both Autocannons and Chaincannons without being better than either.

RF3 HBs would be the ideal choice for cheapish Havoc units that want to sit back in cover and mow down hordes. The Autocannon does not have the shots for this and the Chaincannon does not have the Range. Yet both would still have purpose over the HB if you are looking for higher damage or willing to spend a bit more, get closer and absolutely mulch hordes at the risk of being a bit more vulnerable (because you are closer/more expensive)

And that's just taking about Havocs. Troop CSMs, Tacticals and Devs would absolutely want RF3 HBs.
And it would be SOOOOO easy for this change to happen. Bolter Discipline can be updated in the next FAQ to treat HBs as RF3 for Astartes

-

Well I would want RF 3 weapons because of the Black Legion trait that makes them into Assault 3. I don't know if everybody else wants to deal with that though.

**Galef**

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Galef wrote:
RF3 HBs are the answer. It will set them apart from both Autocannons and Chaincannons without being better than either.

RF3 HBs would be the ideal choice for cheapish Havoc units that want to sit back in cover and mow down hordes. The Autocannon does not have the shots for this and the Chaincannon does not have the Range. Yet both would still have purpose over the HB if you are looking for higher damage or willing to spend a bit more, get closer and absolutely mulch hordes at the risk of being a bit more vulnerable (because you are closer/more expensive)

And that's just taking about Havocs. Troop CSMs, Tacticals and Devs would absolutely want RF3 HBs.
And it would be SOOOOO easy for this change to happen. Bolter Discipline can be updated in the next FAQ to treat HBs as RF3 for Astartes

-

Well I would want RF 3 weapons because of the Black Legion trait that makes them into Assault 3. I don't know if everybody else wants to deal with that though.

If HBs become RF3, Black Legion then making them Assault 3 is a straight nerf. RF3 give you 6 shots at half range (or stationary using Bolter Discipline. Why would you WANT them to be Assault 3?

-

**Albertorius**

...so I must admit, I wasn't expecting havocs to be quite this big:

The 40mm bases were a surprise, too.

**Roknar**

Wow, thanks. That's helpful to know

**Binabik15**

Wow, looks a lot bigger than in the GW comparison. The Havocs are also satisfyingly chunky with extra armour plates and gorgets. Urge to build all CSM from Havocs rising.

I now realize though that I forgot to finish my preorder. Oops.

**Sotahullu**

Well that is a big boy!

**Not Online!!!**

Sotahullu wrote:
Well that is a big boy!

So that is the reason they got T5!

They went to the gym and got themselves some roids.

**Haighus**

It would be nice if they gave Chosen, Terminators, HQs, and maybe even Raptors/Warp Talons T5 too- with only the basic CSM squad being weedier. That would really mark out CSM as different to normal SM when they have some kind of veterancy.

**Saturmorn Carvilli**

Galef wrote:
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Galef wrote:
RF3 HBs are the answer. It will set them apart from both Autocannons and Chaincannons without being better than either.

RF3 HBs would be the ideal choice for cheapish Havoc units that want to sit back in cover and mow down hordes. The Autocannon does not have the shots for this and the Chaincannon does not have the Range. Yet both would still have purpose over the HB if you are looking for higher damage or willing to spend a bit more, get closer and absolutely mulch hordes at the risk of being a bit more vulnerable (because you are closer/more expensive)

And that's just taking about Havocs. Troop CSMs, Tacticals and Devs would absolutely want RF3 HBs.
And it would be SOOOOO easy for this change to happen. Bolter Discipline can be updated in the next FAQ to treat HBs as RF3 for Astartes

-

Well I would want RF 3 weapons because of the Black Legion trait that makes them into Assault 3. I don't know if everybody else wants to deal with that though.
If HBs become RF3, Black Legion then making them Assault 3 is a straight nerf. RF3 give you 6 shots at half range (or stationary using Bolter Discipline. Why would you WANT them to be Assault 3?

-

Long range shooting while objective camping. EDIT: while moving to objective camp or redeploying. Also forgot that Bolter Discipline is a thing.

**SamusDrake**

If cash was spare, the Havocs seem like a good Kill Team...

**Irbis**

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
The rotor cannon should be approximately the same power level as a heavy bolter (same size, same faction so same technological level, etc) and it LARGELY outperform TWO heavy bolters.

...Kind of like how a GAU-19 puts out more gunfire than an M2?

Except unlike your example where both weapons use identical ammunition, heavy bolters use far stronger ammo and more apt comparison would be XM214 vs Mk 47 Striker. While HH rules might went too far with their S3 rotor cannons, that thing should have never been more than S4. Especially seeing new CSM rotor cannons massively outshine both assault cannons (things that in canon replaced them thanks to being flat out better) and redemptor onslaught cannons (funny how a dude can somehow fire more stronger and more accurate shots than massive war machine from much bigger gun that Havoc would never even lift)...

Not Online!!! wrote:
Sotahullu wrote:
Well that is a big boy!

So that is the reason they got T5!

It's almost like people complaining about T5 before even seeing the models firsthand (and ignoring all cues hinting at being more machine than man) were begging to be wrong. Go figure

**Not Online!!!**

Irbis wrote:
Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
The rotor cannon should be approximately the same power level as a heavy bolter (same size, same faction so same technological level, etc) and it LARGELY outperform TWO heavy bolters.

...Kind of like how a GAU-19 puts out more gunfire than an M2?

Except unlike your example where both weapons use identical ammunition, heavy bolters use far stronger ammo and more apt comparison would be XM214 vs Mk 47 Striker. While HH rules might went too far with their S3 rotor cannons, that thing should have never been more than S4. Especially seeing new CSM rotor cannons massively outshine both assault cannons (things that in canon replaced them thanks to being flat out better) and redemptor onslaught cannons (funny how a dude can somehow fire more stronger and more accurate shots than massive war machine from much bigger gun that Havoc would never even lift)...

Not Online!!! wrote:
Sotahullu wrote:
Well that is a big boy!

So that is the reason they got T5!

It's almost like people complaining about T5 before even seeing the models firsthand (and ignoring all cues hinting at being more machine than man) were begging to be wrong. Go figure

Never complained about the t5, was more confused due to not seeing them in comparison to your average marine.

That said not helpfull for hiding the havocs their little size increase.

**Albertorius**

I've assembled an autocannon guy and that one doesn't look quite as big (it is bigger, though. And then there's the cannon xd). Then again, the legs are so open that they almost don't fit inside the 40mm, so there's that.

**Crimson**

Oh, I was not expecting the Havocs to be that big. It is even weirder that they don't have two wounds then. Why are the Primaris Marines T4, W2 and the Havocs which are Marines of similar stature T5, W1?

**spiralingcadaver**

Crimson wrote:
Oh, I was not expecting the Havocs to be that big. It is even weirder that they don't have two wounds then. Why are the Primaris Marines T4, W2 and the Havocs which are Marines of similar stature T5, W1?

Well, then they couldn't fit in their rhinos, now could they?

**warboss**

I like the model in the right with the gorget. It's sort of a chaos take on mk8 armor. The autocannon would distinguish it even more exclusively as chaos but they unfortunately gave a version of it to those ridiculous flying primaris.

Spoiler:

**ingtaer**

Is there any more to be released for this?

**Kanluwen**

ingtaer wrote:

Is there any more to be released for this?

Dark Apostle, Lord Executioner, possibly the Blackstone Fortress hammer guy.

**ingtaer**

Thanks Kanluwen.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I got that conclusion because of you complaining about how a single point of difference in stats can totally change everything.

I was not complaining about this. My problem is that the rotor canon profile is so much better than the heavy bolter profile, and only that. I was mentioning that “One point of stat difference is a big deal in term of fluff only as something that means this problem is even worse than what could initially be thought.

**Rolsheen**

The only thing I don't like about spider lord (Lord Discordant) is the head on the beast, does anyone know if a Maulerfiend or Heldrake head would fit?

**Gordon Shumway**

Rolsheen wrote:
The only thing I don't like about spider lord (Lord Discordant) is the head on the beast, does anyone know if a Maulerfiend or Heldrake head would fit?

They would probably be fine. Krautscientist used a blood slaughterer head and it looks great http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/284419-khornes-eternal-hunt-krautscientists-chaotic-wip-thread/page-179

He claims an armiger head would work nicely as well. The only trick is to get the cabling to match up.

**Adeptus Doritos**

Albertorius wrote:
...so I must admit, I wasn't expecting havocs to be quite this big:

The 40mm bases were a surprise, too.

Yeah, I was kinda shocked to see that.

Not that I was displeased too much, but... I remember looking all over the GW site to see what the base size would be and saw nothing.

**AduroT**

I was surprised to see the Vanguard Snipers on 40mms as well. Base Size Creep!

**Sotahullu**

AduroT wrote:
I was surprised to see the Vanguard Snipers on 40mms as well. Base Size Creep!

Not again! I have already enough 25mm bases to start my own shop!

**Rolsheen**

Gordon Shumway wrote:
Rolsheen wrote:
The only thing I don't like about spider lord (Lord Discordant) is the head on the beast, does anyone know if a Maulerfiend or Heldrake head would fit?

They would probably be fine. Krautscientist used a blood slaughterer head and it looks great http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/284419-khornes-eternal-hunt-krautscientists-chaotic-wip-thread/page-179

He claims an armiger head would work nicely as well. The only trick is to get the cabling to match up.

Thanks I meant the Arch-Lord Discordant not the Venomcrawler

**Snugiraffe**

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Galef wrote:
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Galef wrote:
RF3 HBs are the answer. It will set them apart from both Autocannons and Chaincannons without being better than either.

RF3 HBs would be the ideal choice for cheapish Havoc units that want to sit back in cover and mow down hordes. The Autocannon does not have the shots for this and the Chaincannon does not have the Range. Yet both would still have purpose over the HB if you are looking for higher damage or willing to spend a bit more, get closer and absolutely mulch hordes at the risk of being a bit more vulnerable (because you are closer/more expensive)

And that's just taking about Havocs. Troop CSMs, Tacticals and Devs would absolutely want RF3 HBs.
And it would be SOOOOO easy for this change to happen. Bolter Discipline can be updated in the next FAQ to treat HBs as RF3 for Astartes

-

Well I would want RF 3 weapons because of the Black Legion trait that makes them into Assault 3. I don't know if everybody else wants to deal with that though.
If HBs become RF3, Black Legion then making them Assault 3 is a straight nerf. RF3 give you 6 shots at half range (or stationary using Bolter Discipline. Why would you WANT them to be Assault 3?

-

Long range shooting while objective camping. EDIT: while moving to objective camp or redeploying. Also forgot that Bolter Discipline is a thing.

The Assault 3 would only apply when advancing, wouldn't it? Black Legion would suddenly get a 'heavy' weapon that they could fire when advancing. Doesn't sound like much of a nerf to me.