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I think very few people will truly walk out of this movie knowing exactly what to make of it or how it makes them feel inside. It's the same reason I keep watching The Shawshank Redemption, but in a slightly twisted way.


I wonder if this confusion is why this movie has had critics call it:
1. Promoting violence
2. White male conservative propaganda.
3. Incel manifesto
4. promoting child abuse.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I wonder if this confusion is why this movie has had critics call it:
1. Promoting violence
2. White male conservative propaganda.
3. Incel manifesto
4. promoting child abuse.

I believe that anyone who thinks even a single one of these can safely be discounted in all things moving forward.

Like that one review, I read of Overlord that was basically "a movie for incels" (which made zero sense and might as well have been "I didn't watch the movie but it looks stupid").

I can kind of get it a bit more with this one, just because of the controversial subject matter, but I think anyone who makes at least 3 of those accusations is pretty much saying they didn't wathc the movie. The "promoting violence" one maybe, if you squint real hard and like complaining about the kids today.

 LordofHats wrote:
Like that one review, I read of Overlord that was basically "a movie for incels" (which made zero sense and might as well have been "I didn't watch the movie but it looks stupid").

... Overlord, the movie about WW2 roided pseudozombies? Boy, I can't track that metaphor. As you said, I'd have to assume anyone who said that hadn't seen the movie or maybe even the trailer honestly.


So far as Joker, still haven't not seen, so also not reading articles about it because I might this week. I've been pretty negative on this movie from the giddyup just because, well, I didn't think the Joker really needed an origin story blah blah blah; but I've seen a lot of people say Joaquin Phoenix did a great job, so ... maybe. If Gemini Man bombs (and it looks like it will) I think I'll probably see Joker this week.

 Ouze wrote:
So far as Joker, still haven't not seen, so also not reading articles about it because I might this week. I've been pretty negative on this movie from the giddyup just because, well, I didn't think the Joker really needed an origin story blah blah blah; but I've seen a lot of people say Joaquin Phoenix did a great job, so ... maybe. If Gemini Man bombs (and it looks like it will) I think I'll probably see Joker this week.

I didn't want to see it. I didn't like the idea of telling a Joker origin story. I ended up seeing it just because that's what we were all doing that night, and I didn't want to be the guy going "Nu uh! #NotMyJoker!" like an idiot.

And boy am I glad I went. Do not regret it at all.

The hate for the film only made me want to see it more. Honestly, I was blown away by everything about the movie. Hands-down the best movie I have gone to see this year, and I will definitely be picking it up the moment it drops on blu-ray.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I didn't want to see it. I didn't like the idea of telling a Joker origin story. I ended up seeing it just because that's what we were all doing that night, and I didn't want to be the guy going "Nu uh! #NotMyJoker!" like an idiot.

Yeah, pretty much sames - don't wanna be that guy So, probably Thursday.

 Ouze wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I didn't want to see it. I didn't like the idea of telling a Joker origin story. I ended up seeing it just because that's what we were all doing that night, and I didn't want to be the guy going "Nu uh! #NotMyJoker!" like an idiot.

Yeah, pretty much sames - don't wanna be that guy So, probably Thursday.

You'll be glad you did, trust me.

For the best. I can conceive of no reality where Gemini Man won't be garbage XD

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I wonder if this confusion is why this movie has had critics call it:
1. Promoting violence
2. White male conservative propaganda.
3. Incel manifesto
4. promoting child abuse.

I believe that anyone who thinks even a single one of these can safely be discounted in all things moving forward.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/06/opinions/joker-political-parable-donald-trump-presidency-yang/index.html

Possibly one of the more cringey reviews.

CNN somehow managed to put "Trump" into a review for a film about the Joker. Seems around right for them.

 LordofHats wrote:
For the best. I can conceive of no reality where Gemini Man won't be garbage XD

It already is. I feel bad for Will Smith, with all his recent films being bombs and what not. We can only hope his animated movie coming out in a couple months does well.

Went to see it on friday on a whim. Didn't make me go wow or bleargh either way. Rather neutral one off movie that you can see or not see and not lose much either way.

 LordofHats wrote:
For the best. I can conceive of no reality where Gemini Man won't be garbage XD

But it has Clive Owen in it! He deserves a good role and a decent movie once in a while!

It's got Will Smith in it. Worse, it's got him playing two rolls!

That's like, 10x the unwarranted sense of smug self-importance of a typical Will Smith film!

/kidding not kidding

 LordofHats wrote:
It's got Will Smith in it. Worse, it's got him playing two rolls!

That's like, 10x the unwarranted sense of smug self-importance of a typical Will Smith film!

/kidding not kidding

Yeah, that's how it comes across with Will - whether its intentional or not. I am Legend didn't help matters neither...

"...I am the last surviving man..."

"...I am operating on all frequencies..."

"...Ladies...I will be at this meeting point everyday at 12 o'clock..."

...that said, I wish his character ran off into the sunset with Samantha!

Oh no!:

A 100% real and totally-not-at-all-satirical News Website wrote:Media Horrified By Lack Of Violence At Joker Screenings

U.S.—Our nation’s intrepid journalists had been warning the country about the threat of the Joker movie and how it could encourage violence among disaffected white people and incels -- the new greatest threat to mankind. And as reporters prepared for an onslaught of violence as Joker premiered over the weekend, they were horrified by what happened: absolutely no violence or anything worth reporting on whatsoever.

“We found one incident of a guy cheering too loudly at the fictional violence,” said CNN reporter Terrance Shelton, “but that was it. There was nothing. Absolutely nothing we can glom onto and spin into a hot take that reinforces The Narrative. I’m shaken to my core.”

More fun at the link.

I do appreciate when someone can use "glom" in a sentence.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Oh no!:

A 100% real and totally-not-at-all-satirical News Website wrote:Media Horrified By Lack Of Violence At Joker Screenings

U.S.—Our nation’s intrepid journalists had been warning the country about the threat of the Joker movie and how it could encourage violence among disaffected white people and incels -- the new greatest threat to mankind. And as reporters prepared for an onslaught of violence as Joker premiered over the weekend, they were horrified by what happened: absolutely no violence or anything worth reporting on whatsoever.

“We found one incident of a guy cheering too loudly at the fictional violence,” said CNN reporter Terrance Shelton, “but that was it. There was nothing. Absolutely nothing we can glom onto and spin into a hot take that reinforces The Narrative. I’m shaken to my core.”

More fun at the link.

I do appreciate when someone can use "glom" in a sentence.

I just read a New York Times op-ed where they literally state the real villain of the film was "Whiteness", and what happens when White Supremacy is left unchecked.

I’m going to see this for Date Night in about an hour. I’m looking forward to it.

I hope to have my thoughts up tomorrow, but Canadian Thanksgiving may disrupt my plans for this weekend.

text removed.

Reds8n

Yeah this took a hard turn for the gakky all of a sudden, huh?

I watched it just now.

It’s a good movie. The acting is top notch.

I was surprised by how nothing in the movie really surprised me. In some ways, the movie felt formulaic. Like how, in the series Law and Order, you know exactly how the show is going to go, and you almost don’t need to watch it... but you watch it because that’s what you’re doing right now? A lot like that.

The movie is a character piece. And I’m more of a plot / story kind of guy. I feel like the movie tried too hard to make the character relatable. Which felt like it dragged on faaar too long for a movie with an inevitable death / rebirth moment for the character. Part of the Joker’s attraction is the divorce from reality the character has. This movie, for a “mainstream” movie, makes a solid point of how failing to provide mental health services to those in need increases the likelihood of creating characters like the Joker. It almost feels too grounded in reality.

On the whole, I’d say there was too much foreplay, not enough getting on with things. We get it, the world treats Arthur like garbage and then he snaps... do we need 1 hour and 40 mins of watching a guy get beat down, for 20 mins of embracing the Joker?

The movie feels like it painted itself into a corner for the third act. We spent this long getting you to relate to this character, but now the obvious break comes and we’re not sure how fast to pull the bandaid.

The movie is very well acted; the performances are gripping with some real stick-with-you moments. Joker embracing his Nihilism when stating, “I’m not political. I don’t believe in anything.” Is just magnifique in the moment.

The movie has some real meat to it. For myself, the balance of the movie was unsatisfying. Arthur isn’t an interesting enough character to hang a character piece on, when the “purpose” of the movie is to introduce the Joker. There’s lots of good in this movie. I want to like it a lot. But I don’t.

Maybe a second viewing, knowing that the Joker is the destination, not really the journey, would make it more palatable.

Evidently its made $544mm. Thats a lot, especially considering the cost to make was modest. A major winner for DC.

Wife and I have not seen. She is interested but wants to watch on rental.

This seems like the second time a one off movie that was one actor's personal vehicle for a popular character has completely blown through expectations and put the studio making horrid comic book moves to shame.

And that means it's time for a Joker/Deadpool crossover

 greatbigtree wrote:
The movie has some real meat to it. For myself, the balance of the movie was unsatisfying. Arthur isn’t an interesting enough character to hang a character piece on, when the “purpose” of the movie is to introduce the Joker. There’s lots of good in this movie. I want to like it a lot. But I don’t.

Yeah, I saw it over the weekend and I think this summarizes my thoughts about it better than I could.

Maybe it's because I don't really care much about the Joker as a character. Maybe because, well, every sociological and psychological point the movie seemed to be making (to me) I already agree with, generally speaking. So really, the movie was, for me, superfluous in a way.

Saw it this weekend and thought it was terrific. Most of my thoughts just echo those who also really liked it.

It's interesting to me that people think that the movie celebrates Arthur's/Joker's actions. While I sympathized with his plight, I found his actions pretty fething reprehensible. I don't know if it's more fascinating or sad that some seem to have trouble recognizing that it can be both things.

 Frazzled wrote:
Evidently its made $544mm. Thats a lot, especially considering the cost to make was modest. A major winner for DC.

Wife and I have not seen. She is interested but wants to watch on rental.

Frazz, I'd try to see it in the theater if you can, unless you have a really good home theater. It's beautifully shot with a great soundtrack.

And yeah, financially speaking it's crushing it. Think I read it only had a 29% drop in the second weekend, which is pretty tremendous. DC just needs to keep making good films and let Marvel do the big cinematic universe thing.

 gorgon wrote:
It's interesting to me that people think that the movie celebrates Arthur's/Joker's actions. While I sympathized with his plight, I found his actions pretty fething reprehensible. I don't know if it's more fascinating or sad that some seem to have trouble recognizing that it can be both things.

Well, there is the usual sort of "depiction is endorsement" crowd about almost anything.

There is a good deal of ambiguity in the film. There are plenty of elements, sociological and psychological, that are left to the viewer to resolve, just like in real life. So, what we are seeing is people, as usual, scrambling to resolve the ambiguity of the world by resorting to narratives, meta-narratives, normative claims, and so on.

Or at least, that is my take, which is not really more or less the same sort of thing.

SamusDrake wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
It's got Will Smith in it. Worse, it's got him playing two rolls!

That's like, 10x the unwarranted sense of smug self-importance of a typical Will Smith film!

/kidding not kidding

Yeah, that's how it comes across with Will - whether its intentional or not. I am Legend didn't help matters neither...

"...I am the last surviving man..."

"...I am operating on all frequencies..."

"...Ladies...I will be at this meeting point everyday at 12 o'clock..."

...that said, I wish his character ran off into the sunset with Samantha!

To be fair that is probably his best movie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On Joker. I enjoy movies with well thought out musical scores. I also enjoy movies that make you think. Joker has both of these. People act like this was the first movie every made about a psychopath...

Kind of makes me think of the movie "Gone Girl" which was also amazing. Psychopath in that movie framed her husband for her own murder and murders a dude that took her in and protected her. Pretended that he kidnap her - and got away free. Then blackmailed her husband to get back with her. Yet...I think all that movie got was praise (which was well deserved).

Saw it this weekend. Went in kinda sceptical, but I actually really enjoyed the movie. I kinda feel like it warrants a second veiwing, because I wasn't sure I was unpacking everything I was being shown, but at the same time, I'm not sure I liked it enough to actually watch it a second time.

I'm certainly someone who is less-than-enthused by the relatively relentless stream of superhero movies of late, and this was absolutely a refreshing change of pace in that regard. The last big-budget action film I saw was Solo (it was a long plane journey, alright), and I think Joker was absolutely miles better. The soundtrack/use of music was excellent, and the set dressing was very very fitting. I got a slight nostalgia buzz via some of the haircuts to superhero saturday morning cartoons (of my generation, at least), which was fun, and not at all so-cartoony-that-it-detracts-from-the-tension, but I think they did a very nice job of making an 80s period peice.

I also really liked the use of closeups, and dialogue-free, action-free camera shots. In a movie that very much lets you know it's going to be playing around with perceptions, reality and the truth a little, these were a very nice way to leave you alone in the cinema chewing over what had happened, and also thinking about what you were seeing, as Phoenix writhes about onscreen. Again, to compare it to Solo, where it felt like the shot changed every few seconds, it was a nice break from the established norm of todays action/superhero fare.

To go back to Phoenix a bit, I thought - especially at the start, he did a great job. His speech patterns and body movements were very convincing in terms of being visably unwell, and quite unsettling. They certainly did a great job of making Arthur Fleck someone who invokes profound pity, and never actually seems sincerely wicked. Rather, throughout, though Fleck unquestionably behaves abhorrently, the biggest emotion he evokes is pity. He's not adimrable, he's not evil, he's just a bit pathetic and unfortunate. And Phoenix pulls this off exquisitely.

Another aspect I think was handled much better than I expected was the kind of parrallels to "current year" that have caused such a flurry of interest. I suspected, going in, that they'd be a bit ham-fisted, self-righteous and preachy, but in fact, I felt like they were left very open-ended and ambiguous. Whilst mental illness, lone-wolf-ism, urban loneliness/terror, spiking crime and poverty, mass media, political radicalism and milionaire politicians are all present, and reflected, I think Joker does a very good job of not providing any kind of moralizing voice at any time. They're all presented as interwoven, yet never is anything conclusively declared wicked or virtuous by any character that is themselves simply heroic or villainous. Joker's world is undeniably a bleak one, but part of that is that there are no quick fixes, and no good or bad.

I will say, however, that there was more than a slight nagging sense that some of this wasn't wholy neccessary. Additionally, the transition to the Joker felt a bit odd - this might not necessarily be bad, or unintentional, again, I think jarring the audience and making them feel uncertain isn't a bad technique - but it seemed like he suddenly was a different person in the interview scene, and the speech between the two was, though dramatically tense, in terms of the actual dialogue, wasn't all that compelling. And as the sort of memorable moment for Phoenix's Joker, it remains to be seen how well he'll stand the test of time.
Much like Legend's Joker, the 2019 iteration is tapping into a lot of zeitgeist-y stuff. Nolan's Dark Knight came out at a time of general hysteria about terrorism, a collapse in faith in state governance, and a rise in cynicism and more than slightly voyeuristic/sadistic reality TV. But at that time, the 'gritty realism' superhero movie was relatively new, and there was very little fatigue, and social media hadn't quite gestated into the great hyper-connected cynicism factory that we have today. Everyone from scene kids at your local mall, to redneck anti-Obama-ists adopted Legend's portrayal of the Joker, and that has since been widely lampooned. On top of that, Legend's final performance was easily mythologized, as the actor himself was a genuinely troubled individual - this, more than his performance (looking back, I can hardly remember that film at all. TBF, I was 13 when it came out) seems to be a big part of the endurance of the Legend Joker, while the follow up - Leto's frankly self-important and talentless effort - helped cement Legend as the 'good' movie Joker. Phoenix certainly delivered an excellent performance, and this is easily one of the better movies I've seen of late, but it remains to be seen as to how much of a cultural impact it'll have, especially considering the media circus going on right now.
The ending certainly begs for a sequel, and tbh, I for one would check it out.

 gorgon wrote:
Saw it this weekend and thought it was terrific. Most of my thoughts just echo those who also really liked it.

It's interesting to me that people think that the movie celebrates Arthur's/Joker's actions. While I sympathized with his plight, I found his actions pretty fething reprehensible. I don't know if it's more fascinating or sad that some seem to have trouble recognizing that it can be both things.

 Frazzled wrote:
Evidently its made $544mm. Thats a lot, especially considering the cost to make was modest. A major winner for DC.

Wife and I have not seen. She is interested but wants to watch on rental.

Frazz, I'd try to see it in the theater if you can, unless you have a really good home theater. It's beautifully shot with a great soundtrack.

I’ve watched it and I’m glad I did. I don’t think it’s a movie with a lot of replay value for me, but it was one of those movies that was just well made all around. The sounds, the music, the cinematography, it really is worth watching on the big screen for the sake of “watching art” I would almost say.

I don’t know if it was a great Joker movie. But I do think it was a great movie that happened to have the Joker in it.