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Made in de
Huge Bone Giant






Voss wrote:
Less conservative? Not every model has to have a corset AND robes AND armored boots AND shoulder pads that would stagger a marine. Leaving several out would keep the model looking like a Sister without overloading each one..


I see, thanks.

Not that I agree. Sisters are an army, and not just any army but one highly representative of it parent organization that is both rich and rigid in its doctrine. It seems strange to me to apply a ragtag revolutionary army look to an army that has the means and the purpose to look uniform and representative of the faith and church it represents.

Now variance in devotional items, purity seals and the like, sure. I couldn't object to that. But the basic uniform?

Voss wrote:
When I (and I suspect others) say 'Definitely looks like a Sister.'. That isn't a compliment. It's that they've done the minimum necessary to replicate an old model for mass production in plastic. There is zero 'wow' factor. Just an acknowledgement that they've successfully passed the lowest bar possible, and it can join the third (fourth? Fifth?) iteration of tactical marines as a box on the shelf. Not that it will ignite fervor and produce lots of sales..


It's a compliment when I say it, for what it's worth. Regardless of that, I wouldn't equate the first plastic kit Sisters get to the umpteenth iteration of Tactical Marines, not the least because those Tactical Marines will still outsell Sisters because Space Marines.

We've had Necrons in this thread before, and as a big Necron fan (up to a certain day in August 2011) and I've been the recipient of an update that wowed a certain kind of people, but as an owner of that army, invested in that army, and very much desiring to get new stuff that fit my army, I would have chosen zero wow factor over what we actually got. And saying that, I don't consider the Necron update of 5th ed catastrophic, model-wise. I think updated Sisters have a much greater potential for disappointing existing Sisters fans because the sculpts are so old and there is no plastic legacy GW needs to consider when overhauling the range. I credit them for staying true to the original design, even if a byproduct of it is that it's a quick job on part of the designers because they don't have to add or redo anything of significance.

Voss wrote:
As to the other, I'm not sure what you mean. Several factions were neglected for decades because GW didn't know where to go with them, several flavors of elf in both systems, Bretonnians, tomb kings. Without a designer pushing a project, GW has a history of producing nothing at all.

Their jobs as you put it, is to make models or rules. It isn't to reproduce the back catalog of citadel miniatures. They're either put on projects by management or they successfully argue why their pet project would be good for the company. If management doesn't want to do wood elves and no one had a convincing plan for wood elves, then a decade passed without any wood elves. Which actually happened. Sisters are nothing special in that regard.


Yeah, I'm not upset because that's a problem of Sisters alone, but because it isn't. I am hardly alone in criticizing GW for letting certain armies and kits languish for years and decades.

I have standards and expect a company the size of GW, and with its output, to keep a minimum quality to all its supported ranges. Necron Warriors, for instance, are quite old by now, but they're in plastic (the standard these days) and largely in line with the rest of the range. I'm not asking for a redo of that kit because it's still perfectly serviceable .High Elf Spearmen, on the other hand, became obsolete a long time before they seized being a core element of the High Elf army. Emprah's Kiddies still use a metal turned resin upgrade kit from fifteen years ago to make their Troops choice. The list goes on. It can't be hard to have a manager who insists that certain kits are redone to preserve the integrity of an army and set a minimum standard for the appearance of the units, old and new, within that army.

That's obviously not how GW works. And to me, that's a problem. Model designers treating their job like a hobby and doing only what they feel like will only get you so far.

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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Voss wrote:
When I (and I suspect others) say 'Definitely looks like a Sister.'. That isn't a compliment.
Okay, now you’re getting closer to just being honest about not liking Sisters

   
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SoCal, USA!

Voss wrote:
When I (and I suspect others) say 'Definitely looks like a Sister.'. That isn't a compliment.

It's that they've done the minimum necessary to replicate an old model for mass production in plastic.

There is zero 'wow' factor.

Not that it will ignite fervor and produce lots of sales..


Actually, it is. Looking like a Sister is what a Sister model *should* look like. To say otherwise is simply ridiculous and bad faith argument. If you don't like Sisters aesthetic, that's fine, go play something else. Don't keep on with this nonsense about how Sisters shouldn't be Sisters, because that's just trolling, and I'm going to report you for it from here on out.

The proposed plastic model is a clear translation of the Goodwin design into modern plastic, and that's a good thing. The original design (aside from the haircut) is excellent, and deserves to carry on. There's no need for a "mk.2" redesign, nor a revamp like Necrons or AoS, nor is there any particular desire for such from the people who actually own Sisters forces, nor the people who want plastic Sisters because plastic.

Sisters in plastic *is* the "wow".

No flavor of "girl army" is ever going to produce lots of sales on the scale of Space Marines. They're not the poster children of 40k, and it's not their job. They're a labor of love from the design team to the players, simple as that. All they need to do is cover their costs, which should happen soon enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Geifer wrote:
I think updated Sisters have a much greater potential for disappointing existing Sisters fans because the sculpts are so old and there is no plastic legacy GW needs to consider when overhauling the range.

I credit them for staying true to the original design, even if a byproduct of it is that it's a quick job on part of the designers because they don't have to add or redo anything of significance.


No plastic legacy???

I believe that is all-new plastic tooling there, and the design is a solid match for the recent release, aside from the palette swap and backpack vs jump pack.

Translating metal to plastic, is not insignificant. There was obviously cleanup done on the design, as the models and parts were rescaled. The footgirl is exactly what she should have been, and matching Jes' elegant sculpts should not be underrated.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/13 21:07:38


   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

On the point about Sisters not being a poster faction —

YES and THANK THE EMPEROR

Looking at the upcoming new intro box, the poster factions are looking more bland than ever IMO. Presumably because they’re aimed at children the horror elemens are rounded out to more cartoonish proportion.

Contrast with another non-poster faction, GSC — the new GSC bring a lot of horrific elements that make them all the cooler and more evocative.

I would be most happy with the same approach to Sisters, especially Repentia (fetishistic zealotry is a horror element).

   
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Yeah, it's a crime that Black Templars aren't more prominent - they're way better poster children for "grimdark" than Girlyman's sissies ever can be.

   
Made in us
Angelic Adepta Sororitas




I think it looks good, especially the extensions of the robes and such. That really brings out the Ecclesiastic element well and reduces the need for needless clutter. I always pictured Sisters as the utilitarian aspect of the Ecclesiarchy, focused on the mission regardless of the blatant corruption, decadence and hypocrisy of the Ecclesiarchy, cause Emprah.

just hope they do something different with Repentia and loose the universal haircut thing. Thats all. Would I like to see an end to boob plate? Sure but i can get over it if thats not happening. As JohnHwang said, the plastic is the wow here. Can't wait to easily magnetize inferno/bolt/plasma pistols on my superiors.

   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm not against catering to other tastes myself. Adding in a few extra non-corset torso bits is fine, as long as it's not at the expense of the core aesthetic.
--
Based on the rendered examples, there are going to be a few options for hair, besides bob, bob, or helmet.

I hope there's enough though that all of one specific type don't have to be used. And enough to give everyone a helmet.
--
I would like to see an expansion to the repentia idea. I wasn't in the hobby when the pistol repentia were around, but that sounds cool.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Voss wrote:
When I (and I suspect others) say 'Definitely looks like a Sister.'. That isn't a compliment. It's that they've done the minimum necessary to replicate an old model for mass production in plastic. There is zero 'wow' factor. Just an acknowledgement that they've successfully passed the lowest bar possible, and it can join the third (fourth? Fifth?) iteration of tactical marines as a box on the shelf. Not that it will ignite fervor and produce lots of sales.


Then you don't get the appeal. I have a small pile of old metal genestealer cult up stairs, the new ones were little more than the bare minimum to update them to mass production last edition. It was enough for me to drop hundreds of dollars on them. Why? Because I'd wanted them since they were metal, I was still buying lots of metals occasionally when I had the money up till I had enough that I couldn't justify any more without rules. I love those dopey little doomed bastards and their stupid ribbed mining gear. All they had to do was put that into plastic and give it rules and I'm in, then they've given me another entire set of miniatures just now to dump another damn near a grand so far.

I'm actually hoping sisters take a while so I have some money together again by the time they come out, because if they do for Sisters what they did for the cult, even just the initial release, it will be something I've wanted for years. There's an inherent wow factor there, I've got some friends who might buy some just to say they own some plastic sisters even if they aren't that great just because it's been that much of a thing for so long.

If you don't see the appeal in hilariously overly ornamented flamer wielding war nuns... I don't know what to tell you. You're clearly not interested in sisters unless they conform to your rather specific view of things which is significantly different than what most folks seem to have been asking for.
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Wyrmalla wrote:
Neither do they look particularly feminine.

They do look feminine. Try it, do a blind test.
 Yodhrin wrote:
It's almost as if they're aware their viewpoint on this and similar issues is a minority one that won't get anywhere with the bean counters pulling the strings at GW, unless they can quiet down those who disagree and create the perception that the "change it" faction is much bigger than they actually are.

It took 15 years of constant complaining to finally get even the idea of Sisters of Battle getting new stuff anywhere near the bean counters pulling the string at GW. Of course everyone knows it take a LOT to get an idea near those bean counters.
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The original design (aside from the haircut) is excellent, and deserves to carry on.

So the haircut doesn't deserve to carry on? Which aspects of the original design deserve to carry on, which one doesn't, and why?

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 Manchu wrote:
SW are an interesting case (as are Necrons). They underwent a series of releases that took their established aesthetic in a markedly different direction than previously. And some people have complained that this is the wrong direction, in their opinion. They already liked SW; they consider dramatically changing the faction focus to emphasize some kind of cartoonish werewolf theme as a negative. I certainly sympathize with people who like SW less because of the changes. I symapthize with people who would like to see development BACK to the previous direction.
With the Woofs it was a clear case of Flanderisation.

They went from wolf-themed Vikings to Wolfy "The Wolf" McWolf, riding a wolf, using Wolf Claws, protected by a Wolf Helm, bringing the power of the Wolftime with his Wolfkin and Jesus just make it stop!!!

GW lost all sense of balance with that army's iconography and style (Blood Angels copped a bit of this in Ward's Codex, but certainly not to the same degree).

I don't see Sisters suffering the same problem.

Oh, and Manchu, whilst I've got you, and with the previous page's discussion about Necrons, what would you say to a Return to Sanctuary 101 campaign box that had new Sisters and Necrons as the opposing force?

Voss wrote:
When I (and I suspect others) say 'Definitely looks like a Sister.'. That isn't a compliment.
Sure was for me. The worst thing that GW could have done would have been to give us SINO - Sisters In Name Only. Them looking like the Sisters we know already shows that they're committed to (*ahem*) making this army great again (again?). Giving it a real go, the first real go since the dying days of 2nd Ed. I remember that release, and how it felt so tacked on. It was the shortest lived Codex in the entire 2nd Ed line, and since then they never got another look-in outside of Witch Hunters.

What we're seeing so far just indicates that this is a major step forward for the army. Why poo-poo over something that's starting off so strong?

 Mmmpi wrote:
And for most people 'Definitely looks like a sister' is a complement.
That is certainly the way I intended it. We've only seen two examples of the new Sisters, and the fact that they look so completely like what Sisters are is fantastic (IMO). I also really like all the heads from the last page, and am glad that we'll get a variety of different styles. The only caveat to that is that it'd be nice if each set had enough to do all helmets and all helmetless, as the Sisters helmet is great, and would look great in ranks, but some people still prefer the old-skool haircuts on all their models, which is equally as valid.

 Albertorius wrote:
Dunno, I like what I'm seeing so far, but some new stuff would be cool too.
100% it would be cool. I love the idea of Sisters with a heavier type of power armour, but not quite Termies, just as you suggested. Make them more fleshed out than just the same miniatures in squads with different names.

That's why that original Repentia artwork from a page back doesn't do it for me. It's too... samey. It's too safe. And it's not horrifying, which is what Repentias (and Penitent Engines, IMO) should be.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Sisters have been pretty much abandoned since 2nd ed. They have no plastics, and chunks of their metal range have been unavailable for long stretches of time. If their new incarnation was to deviate from the established aesthetic, existing fans would have zero practical options for representing their preferred(and currently, the only) aesthetic.
Hi there! Big Necromunda fan here, and this is 100% my take on the new Delaque miniatures.

I'd hate for die-hard Sisters players to have yet another thing to complain endlessly about to suffer the same fate and end up with a "new" version of their army that has only the scarcest touchstones of aesthetic compatibility.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/14 06:49:20


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Made in de
Huge Bone Giant






 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
I think updated Sisters have a much greater potential for disappointing existing Sisters fans because the sculpts are so old and there is no plastic legacy GW needs to consider when overhauling the range.

I credit them for staying true to the original design, even if a byproduct of it is that it's a quick job on part of the designers because they don't have to add or redo anything of significance.


No plastic legacy???
Spoiler:

I believe that is all-new plastic tooling there, and the design is a solid match for the recent release, aside from the palette swap and backpack vs jump pack.

Translating metal to plastic, is not insignificant. There was obviously cleanup done on the design, as the models and parts were rescaled. The footgirl is exactly what she should have been, and matching Jes' elegant sculpts should not be underrated.


One character is not enough, and while it may well be a matter of interpretation, I stand by what I said. Celestine is a good sign, but not a sure sign. GW's catalogue is full of characters whose appearance deviates from the standard uniform of their faction (because they are allowed to look different for one reason or another) and it would be easy to justify for GW if they opted for a different aesthetic for the army and still kept Celestine around, especially now that they moved on the timeline.

For instance, Celestine is a character from the distant past who doesn't die and keeps wearing her historical armor versus the Ecclesiarchy at large upgrading to some cawl, new designs.

It's simple, and I don't trust GW not to do anything like it until I see actual proof. Which, with those renders, I did.

Still leaves Repentias up in the air, though...

 Mmmpi wrote:
I would like to see an expansion to the repentia idea. I wasn't in the hobby when the pistol repentia were around, but that sounds cool.


No one was in the hobby when pistol Repentia were around.

Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
Voss wrote:
When I (and I suspect others) say 'Definitely looks like a Sister.'. That isn't a compliment. It's that they've done the minimum necessary to replicate an old model for mass production in plastic. There is zero 'wow' factor. Just an acknowledgement that they've successfully passed the lowest bar possible, and it can join the third (fourth? Fifth?) iteration of tactical marines as a box on the shelf. Not that it will ignite fervor and produce lots of sales.


Then you don't get the appeal. I have a small pile of old metal genestealer cult up stairs, the new ones were little more than the bare minimum to update them to mass production last edition. It was enough for me to drop hundreds of dollars on them. Why? Because I'd wantd them since they were metal, I was still buying lots of metals occasionally when I had the money up till I had enough that I couldn't justify any more without rules. I love those dopey little doomed bastards and their stupid ribbed mining gear. All they had to do was put that into plastic and give it rules and I'm in, then they've given me another entire set of miniatures just now to dump another damn near a grand so far.

I'm actually hoping sisters take a while so I have some money together again by the time they come out, because if they do for Sisters what they did for the cult, even just the initial release, it will be something I've wanted for years. There's an inherent wow factor there, I've got some friends who might buy some just to say they own some plastic sisters even if they aren't that great just because it's been that much of a thing for so long.

If you don't see the appeal in hilariously overly ornamented flamer wielding war nuns... I don't know what to tell you. You're clearly not interested in sisters unless they conform to your rather specific view of things which is significantly different than what most folks seem to have been asking for.


Uh, actually, NO. I'm the one arguing -against- the idea that they must conform to a single rather specific view. In fact, I'm apparently being 'threatened' by being reported as a non-conformist, and having my own opinions. And somehow advocating they should look like revolutionaries (I don't even know where that came from). I'm saying they have a whole range to get out, and not every single model has to have every single aesthetic element ever associated with sisters in it. That's all- this reliquary bearer looks over designed to me, and has too many disparate elements on different parts of her body and it doesn't create a unified look. The end.

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Fixture of Dakka







 Geifer wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
I would like to see an expansion to the repentia idea. I wasn't in the hobby when the pistol repentia were around, but that sounds cool.


No one was in the hobby when pistol Repentia were around.


Didn't she show up in =][= at some point, or is my memory failing me?

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
SW are an interesting case (as are Necrons). They underwent a series of releases that took their established aesthetic in a markedly different direction than previously. And some people have complained that this is the wrong direction, in their opinion. They already liked SW; they consider dramatically changing the faction focus to emphasize some kind of cartoonish werewolf theme as a negative. I certainly sympathize with people who like SW less because of the changes. I symapthize with people who would like to see development BACK to the previous direction.
With the Woofs it was a clear case of Flanderisation.

They went from wolf-themed Vikings to Wolfy "The Wolf" McWolf, riding a wolf, using Wolf Claws, protected by a Wolf Helm, bringing the power of the Wolftime with his Wolfkin and Jesus just make it stop!!!





Technically, "maximum wolf" has gone down since seventh edition. When I used to run my space wolves occasionally I'd always have my warlord be "maximum wolf" and you could do the following:

Wolf lord of the wolf on a wolf with a wolftooth necklance, mark of the wolfen and a wolf talisman wolf claws with two wolves.

In seventh, the maximum wolf shifted a bit requiring the use of relics, so you had

wolf lord on a wolf with a wolf claw and the fangsword of the deathwolf (or the wolfenstone) with two wolves as part of a Heralds of the Greatwolf formation in a Wolf Claw Strikeforce.

Optional variant was "in a stormwolf" which was acceptable though you could not have him both on a wolf and in a wolf because the stormwolf could not carry big wolves only small wolves.

I believe in 8th though I don't play them anymore I did check the current levels of maximum wolf, and we're now at

Wolf lord on a wolf of the wolf with wolf claws and the wolfenstone accompanied by two wolves.

So, TECHNICALLY we reached peak wolf in 7th because of formations and decurions, but since seventh and thanks to the staunch wolf of envirwolfmentalists we have reduced levels of wolf emissions by over 25%.

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Voss wrote:
Uh, actually, NO. I'm the one arguing -against- the idea that they must conform to a single rather specific view. In fact, I'm apparently being 'threatened' by being reported as a non-conformist, and having my own opinions. And somehow advocating they should look like revolutionaries (I don't even know where that came from). I'm saying they have a whole range to get out, and not every single model has to have every single aesthetic element ever associated with sisters in it. That's all- this reliquary bearer looks over designed to me, and has too many disparate elements on different parts of her body and it doesn't create a unified look. The end.


Ragtag revolutionary army, as in a force that makes due with what it can get in contrast to an army equipped by a state or institution that has the financial and industrial means to ensure uniformity was my takeaway from your idea that a Sister sculpt is to be considered conservative if she wears the full uniform of her order.

 Dysartes wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
I would like to see an expansion to the repentia idea. I wasn't in the hobby when the pistol repentia were around, but that sounds cool.


No one was in the hobby when pistol Repentia were around.


Didn't she show up in =][= at some point, or is my memory failing me?


I was tempted to add an Inquisitor disclaimer at the end. Then I thought, what good does anybody do a 54mm model for a different game when we're talking about models for a 40k army.

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I always wondered if the name of that model wasn't a case of crossed wires or perhaps a joke. Like maybe that specific character's name is Elisabeth Marianne Repentia-Kowalski and she just goes with Repentia for convinence's sake.

That's clearly the only way a jumppackless Seraphim could have that name.
   
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I like the plastic SoB minis and the previews. I think they've translated them well from their original sculpts and art.

As an aside, I've always wanted to see SoB play off the imagery of the mythological Valkyries, where they ride winged mechanical horses as some sort of jetbike type unit.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Yeah, it's a crime that Black Templars aren't more prominent - they're way better poster children for "grimdark" than Girlyman's sissies ever can be.

From what GW's designers have said they don't think it makes sense for a Marine chapter to be driven so drastically by a hatred of psykers and witches when warp travel is a necessity.... I think someone had this moment where they had this thought, shared it, and the collective team just accepted that they had put out something that was fundamentally flawed, and that they should back away from it rather than embrace the grim dark hypocrisy or otherwise retcon it. I think its a shame because I agree with you, they are much more grim dark than many of the other Marine chapters. While their inclusion in the Space Marine codex has given them access to everything normal marines have, there fluff says that isn't really the case, although its easy to imagine at this point even with their own codex they'd have access to most of the toys anyways. I think at the same time its easy to imagine that GW sees better ways of drawing on the ecclesiastically driven army theme, without doing yet another marine army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/14 14:40:11


 
   
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We'll find out soon enough eh.

That makes no sense though, unless they also plan to expunge the whole concept of Mondominance from both the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition. Also the whole Redemption.

Of course it's a hypocrisy, that's the whole point.

If that's really what folk at the studio think these days, they really have completely lost the ability to grasp their own IP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/14 15:51:29


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Eh, the whole 'suffer not the witch to live' angle never made sense for the Templars. They were thematically meant to be crusaders, not witch hunters. It also makes little sense for Marines in particular to hold views like that, especially those from the second founding.

I'll shed not tears if they lose that particular trait.
   
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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yeah, it's a crime that Black Templars aren't more prominent - they're way better poster children for "grimdark" than Girlyman's sissies ever can be.


Eh, the world could use a bit less of purity obsessed religious fanatics bearing iron crosses (yes I know it's a maltese cross, but there's enough artwork where it hews close enough to German Iron crosses to my eye) and a lot more Ultramarines in it.

   
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 His Master's Voice wrote:
Eh, the whole 'suffer not the witch to live' angle never made sense for the Templars. They were thematically meant to be crusaders, not witch hunters. It also makes little sense for Marines in particular to hold views like that, especially those from the second founding.

I'll shed not tears if they lose that particular trait.


With the current happening in the lore and what seems like an inevitable expansion of the model range to include more Chaos cultists... heck I'm sure they'd have as much issue with Genestealer cultists... it seems easy to realign them to more broadly go after anything that challenges the imperial faith... thus emphasizing the religious crusader over the witch hunter stuff... Inquisitors should really get to keep that any way.

 Yodhrin wrote:
That makes no sense though, unless they also plan to expunge the whole concept of Mondominance from both the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition. Also the whole Redemption.

Of course it's a hypocrisy, that's the whole point.

If that's really what folk at the studio think these days, they really have completely lost the ability to grasp their own IP.
I agree hypocrisy is a big part of the grim dark theme.


40k is about strange extremes, it seems like someone dialed BT up to 11 and was surprised that it was crazy. From interviews and such, it seems like there are people in the studio that when they speak, the other designers just accept it and move on. I think that's what's happened here. I think its less a case of losing grasp, and more a case that none of the prominent voices is really big on them, this particular realization seems to have been shared and people said "you're right"... and just never really gave it a second thought but have repeated it more than once.

With how fluff has evolved I'm sure they could easily rethink it, to make it work better. While hatred of witches and psykers can continue as a strong motivator adding a layer of reasoned rationale to the Black Templars' choice... like that psykers thin the veil that separates the material and immaterial world and the Templars are waging a scorched earth strategy against potential daemonic incursion... its an obvious reaction and extension of their mindset after the galaxy was split in half by chaos. Some are obviously overzealous, but it doesn't mean that they would have as problematic a relationship with Navigators and other sanctioned psykers as GW seems hung up on. Without an explanation how do they reconcile that sanctioned psykers effectively have the Emperor's acceptance or licensing or whatever... while I doubt psykers have any rights, they can't go burning agents of the Emperor without more reason... nut it only takes a couple lines of text to "fix", if it even needs to be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/14 17:05:08


 
   
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the_scotsman wrote:

"maximum wolf"

you could not have him both on a wolf and in a wolf because the stormwolf could not carry big wolves only small wolves

Thank you for that. Gave me a good laugh.

The funny thing is when you read "A Thousand Sons" or "Prospero Burns" the Space Wolves are amazing. 40k ones are completely ridiculous though

TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.

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 aka_mythos wrote:
As an aside, I've always wanted to see SoB play off the imagery of the mythological Valkyries, where they ride winged mechanical horses as some sort of jetbike type unit.


I think that would be better for Sisters of Silence...they already give me a valkyrie vibe.

SoBs have the Rogue Trader battle nun aesthetic that Jes wanted using Siouxsie Sioux and Louise Brooks as his muses. Jes wasn't a punk rocker, he was a Goth rocker. Knowing that, you're better off looking down that path for inspiration.
   
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The Eternity Gate

 Silentz wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

"maximum wolf"

you could not have him both on a wolf and in a wolf because the stormwolf could not carry big wolves only small wolves

Thank you for that. Gave me a good laugh.

The funny thing is when you read "A Thousand Sons" or "Prospero Burns" the Space Wolves are amazing. 40k ones are completely ridiculous though


*Reads those books in wet lupine growl

01001000 01100001 01101001 01101100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01001110 01100101 01100011 01110010 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 01101100 01101111 01110010 01100100 01110011 00100001  
   
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Gosport, UK

 buddha wrote:
 Silentz wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

"maximum wolf"

you could not have him both on a wolf and in a wolf because the stormwolf could not carry big wolves only small wolves

Thank you for that. Gave me a good laugh.

The funny thing is when you read "A Thousand Sons" or "Prospero Burns" the Space Wolves are amazing. 40k ones are completely ridiculous though


*Reads those books in wet lupine growl


*wet leopard growl
   
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SoCal, USA!

 Geifer wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
I think updated Sisters have a much greater potential for disappointing existing Sisters fans because the sculpts are so old and there is no plastic legacy GW needs to consider when overhauling the range.

I credit them for staying true to the original design, even if a byproduct of it is that it's a quick job on part of the designers because they don't have to add or redo anything of significance.


No plastic legacy???
Spoiler:

I believe that is all-new plastic tooling there, and the design is a solid match for the recent release, aside from the palette swap and backpack vs jump pack.

Translating metal to plastic, is not insignificant. There was obviously cleanup done on the design, as the models and parts were rescaled. The footgirl is exactly what she should have been, and matching Jes' elegant sculpts should not be underrated.


One character is not enough,


If you would have looked a bit more carefully, you might have noticed that there are also 2 regular Seraphim Superior / Veteran Seraphim who are not Characters. They carried the Seraphim aesthetic with almost no change from the metals. Celestine herself was lightly updated with new wings, but her armor was a match.

It's insane that you are arguing a counterfactual. You said there was no plastic legacy, and I posted an exact picture. Then you're saying it doesn't count? That is nonsense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Carlovonsexron wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yeah, it's a crime that Black Templars aren't more prominent - they're way better poster children for "grimdark" than Girlyman's sissies ever can be.


Eh, the world could use a bit less of purity obsessed religious fanatics bearing iron crosses (yes I know it's a maltese cross, but there's enough artwork where it hews close enough to German Iron crosses to my eye) and a lot more Ultramarines in it.


Do you want boring? Because that's how you get boring. Ultramarines are the lamest of the Chapters from a thematic and and ideological standpoint. They should be eaten by 'Nids. The entire point of 40k is supposed to have unchecked insanity in it, so obsessive fanatic running things is *better* for the game universe.

And no, the BT Maltese Cross looks *nothing* like an Iron Cross, aside from being generally cross-shaped.
____


 aka_mythos wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:Yeah, it's a crime that Black Templars aren't more prominent - they're way better poster children for "grimdark" than Girlyman's sissies ever can be.

From what GW's designers have said they don't think it makes sense for a Marine chapter to be driven so drastically by a hatred of psykers and witches when warp travel is a necessity.... I think someone had this moment where they had this thought, shared it, and the collective team just accepted that they had put out something that was fundamentally flawed, and that they should back away from it rather than embrace the grim dark hypocrisy or otherwise retcon it. I think its a shame because I agree with you, they are much more grim dark than many of the other Marine chapters. While their inclusion in the Space Marine codex has given them access to everything normal marines have, there fluff says that isn't really the case, although its easy to imagine at this point even with their own codex they'd have access to most of the toys anyways. I think at the same time its easy to imagine that GW sees better ways of drawing on the ecclesiastically driven army theme, without doing yet another marine army.


If that's the epiphany they had, it was wrong in the same way that they backed away from Slaanesh. The BT employ slave-Psykers out of necessity, then fed to the Emprah when their usefulness is at an end. An aesthetic where every Imperial Psyker is literally chained and bound as a penitent would have been a good one, with massive iron explosive collars and heavy iron chain... that would be delightful and appropriate. GW absolutely should have leaned into abhumans and mutants as sub-human things to be used and discarded vs Knightly Germanic Astartes as ubermenshen. It's a strong theme, and taking it OTT makes for a great look characterizing a truly grimdark universe.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/14 19:52:15


   
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Any actual news here ?
   
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[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

See first post.

Please keep in mind this is a discussion forum.

   
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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 aka_mythos wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
Eh, the whole 'suffer not the witch to live' angle never made sense for the Templars. They were thematically meant to be crusaders, not witch hunters. It also makes little sense for Marines in particular to hold views like that, especially those from the second founding.

I'll shed not tears if they lose that particular trait.


With the current happening in the lore and what seems like an inevitable expansion of the model range to include more Chaos cultists... heck I'm sure they'd have as much issue with Genestealer cultists... it seems easy to realign them to more broadly go after anything that challenges the imperial faith... thus emphasizing the religious crusader over the witch hunter stuff... Inquisitors should really get to keep that any way.

 Yodhrin wrote:
That makes no sense though, unless they also plan to expunge the whole concept of Mondominance from both the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition. Also the whole Redemption.

Of course it's a hypocrisy, that's the whole point.

If that's really what folk at the studio think these days, they really have completely lost the ability to grasp their own IP.
I agree hypocrisy is a big part of the grim dark theme.


40k is about strange extremes, it seems like someone dialed BT up to 11 and was surprised that it was crazy. From interviews and such, it seems like there are people in the studio that when they speak, the other designers just accept it and move on. I think that's what's happened here. I think its less a case of losing grasp, and more a case that none of the prominent voices is really big on them, this particular realization seems to have been shared and people said "you're right"... and just never really gave it a second thought but have repeated it more than once.

With how fluff has evolved I'm sure they could easily rethink it, to make it work better. While hatred of witches and psykers can continue as a strong motivator adding a layer of reasoned rationale to the Black Templars' choice... like that psykers thin the veil that separates the material and immaterial world and the Templars are waging a scorched earth strategy against potential daemonic incursion... its an obvious reaction and extension of their mindset after the galaxy was split in half by chaos. Some are obviously overzealous, but it doesn't mean that they would have as problematic a relationship with Navigators and other sanctioned psykers as GW seems hung up on. Without an explanation how do they reconcile that sanctioned psykers effectively have the Emperor's acceptance or licensing or whatever... while I doubt psykers have any rights, they can't go burning agents of the Emperor without more reason... nut it only takes a couple lines of text to "fix", if it even needs to be.


But that's what I mean, there's nothing particularly ridiculous about the Templars from a 40K standpoint, it doesn't need to be rethought, or explained. They just express openly what most "right thinking" Imperial citizens feel and believe - abhorrence and disgust at the mere presence of a psyker - and continuing to make use of psykers isn't incompatible with that, they're just honest about seeing them as subhuman filth. The BT attitude to psykers compared to the broader Imperium is one of degree, not category. They're still willing to tolerate the existence of whatever minimum number of psykers is required for their broader objectives to be achieved, they just treat them like garbage, and dispose of them when they cease to be of use. And remember, with the way the Imperium raises its citizens, a decent number of pyskers would agree with how the BT see them, they would see service with the Templars to be repentance for the sin of their existence, the more miserable that service the better it purifies them before they meet the Emperor in the afterlife.

Which brings me back to "they don't seem to understand their own setting any more". Whether that's all of them, or just a few bigwigs and everyone else just goes along with it - the whole point of 40K is to be riddled with hypocrisies and contradictions and extremes.


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
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 Yodhrin wrote:
 aka_mythos wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
Eh, the whole 'suffer not the witch to live' angle never made sense for the Templars. They were thematically meant to be crusaders, not witch hunters. It also makes little sense for Marines in particular to hold views like that, especially those from the second founding.

I'll shed not tears if they lose that particular trait.


With the current happening in the lore and what seems like an inevitable expansion of the model range to include more Chaos cultists... heck I'm sure they'd have as much issue with Genestealer cultists... it seems easy to realign them to more broadly go after anything that challenges the imperial faith... thus emphasizing the religious crusader over the witch hunter stuff... Inquisitors should really get to keep that any way.

 Yodhrin wrote:
That makes no sense though, unless they also plan to expunge the whole concept of Mondominance from both the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition. Also the whole Redemption.

Of course it's a hypocrisy, that's the whole point.

If that's really what folk at the studio think these days, they really have completely lost the ability to grasp their own IP.
I agree hypocrisy is a big part of the grim dark theme.


40k is about strange extremes, it seems like someone dialed BT up to 11 and was surprised that it was crazy. From interviews and such, it seems like there are people in the studio that when they speak, the other designers just accept it and move on. I think that's what's happened here. I think its less a case of losing grasp, and more a case that none of the prominent voices is really big on them, this particular realization seems to have been shared and people said "you're right"... and just never really gave it a second thought but have repeated it more than once.

With how fluff has evolved I'm sure they could easily rethink it, to make it work better. While hatred of witches and psykers can continue as a strong motivator adding a layer of reasoned rationale to the Black Templars' choice... like that psykers thin the veil that separates the material and immaterial world and the Templars are waging a scorched earth strategy against potential daemonic incursion... its an obvious reaction and extension of their mindset after the galaxy was split in half by chaos. Some are obviously overzealous, but it doesn't mean that they would have as problematic a relationship with Navigators and other sanctioned psykers as GW seems hung up on. Without an explanation how do they reconcile that sanctioned psykers effectively have the Emperor's acceptance or licensing or whatever... while I doubt psykers have any rights, they can't go burning agents of the Emperor without more reason... nut it only takes a couple lines of text to "fix", if it even needs to be.


But that's what I mean, there's nothing particularly ridiculous about the Templars from a 40K standpoint, it doesn't need to be rethought, or explained. They just express openly what most "right thinking" Imperial citizens feel and believe - abhorrence and disgust at the mere presence of a psyker - and continuing to make use of psykers isn't incompatible with that, they're just honest about seeing them as subhuman filth. The BT attitude to psykers compared to the broader Imperium is one of degree, not category. They're still willing to tolerate the existence of whatever minimum number of psykers is required for their broader objectives to be achieved, they just treat them like garbage, and dispose of them when they cease to be of use. And remember, with the way the Imperium raises its citizens, a decent number of pyskers would agree with how the BT see them, they would see service with the Templars to be repentance for the sin of their existence, the more miserable that service the better it purifies them before they meet the Emperor in the afterlife.

Which brings me back to "they don't seem to understand their own setting any more". Whether that's all of them, or just a few bigwigs and everyone else just goes along with it - the whole point of 40K is to be riddled with hypocrisies and contradictions and extremes.


QFT.

It's like people have forgotten that the Imperium are the bad guys, and only appear "good" because they're human-shaped like we are.

Let's remember that the Imperium is basically what you get when the Nazis win, when the CCP runs things. It's an extremely brutal, xenophobic, racist dystopia, excused only by the extreme existential threats popping up from all corners, where your child might be a mutant, your sister a latent gateway to Chaos, and your father a cultist of the Allfather - all while under threat of 7-foot fungus monsters and devouring bugs from another galaxy. In the 40k universe, the Nazis are the good guys. The Soviet military are our saviours.

Let's also remember that the Imperium codifies Colonial-era racism where abhuman "races" and psykers are thin veneers for non-whites from a British perspective. etc. etc.

Within that context, yes, it's a HUGE mistake not to push the Black Templars as the model, and the Ultramarines as abberrant.
____

Follow-up, with that revelation, it's now clear that my Imperial Guard Primaris Psyker needs to be an OOP metal Empire Flagellant. Off to eBay!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/14 20:04:02


   
 
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