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Kawauso wrote: Whatever. The renders so far have all been nice and I'm looking forward to starting an army of battle-nuns. I just hope that they haven't scaled up to 32mm because scale creep seems to be affecting more than just marines these days which...kind of seems to defeat the purpose of the initial scale creep marines underwent most recently in the first place.
It's reasonable to expect that they'll be taller than metal Sisters by a head or so, and in line with modern 40k plastic humans. GW seems to be going to the effort of working to the same established standard these days.
Are they going to be on 30mm bases though, or 25mm bases? GW seems to be making the move to 30mm bases with their infantry models.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2019/05/28 13:10:39
Subject: Re:[Adepta Sororitas] Heavy Weapons pg 23
Ouze wrote: I suspect the oversize guns and the "big hands" will look right when it's actually translated to a mini. When I made some weapons in my 3D modelling application to 3D print, the gun barrels that looked perfect in Rhino looked very, very weedy once printed out and I needed to scale them up to look right when printed.
I absolutely love that gorgeous ammo belt, it's really terrific. I really like pretty much everything I have seen so far, and feel pretty good about that empty display shelf I have with a (SOB???) sticker on it so far.
It's actually not that the hands & weapons are over sized, they're appropriately sized for a heroic scale miniature. The issue, to my eye at least, is that the comparatively smaller head and feet, and how generally slender they are, don't match them. They're kind of an awkward mix of true and heroic scales depending on which body part you focus on.
Kawauso wrote: Whatever. The renders so far have all been nice and I'm looking forward to starting an army of battle-nuns. I just hope that they haven't scaled up to 32mm because scale creep seems to be affecting more than just marines these days which...kind of seems to defeat the purpose of the initial scale creep marines underwent most recently in the first place.
It's reasonable to expect that they'll be taller than metal Sisters by a head or so, and in line with modern 40k plastic humans. GW seems to be going to the effort of working to the same established standard these days.
Are they going to be on 30mm bases though, or 25mm bases? GW seems to be making the move to 30mm bases with their infantry models.
Retributors seems to go on 32mm, based on the pose
The Sister with a shrine on a stick had what looked like a 32mm base rendered as well. I wouldn't expect Sisters to remain on 25mm bases at this point.
Truth be told I didn't expect that in the first place because I think GW is stupidly obsessed with their humongous bases, but now at least we have actual evidence to base it on.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
If you're worried about boob plates and not about bare heads you have no argument.
Retributors seems to go on 32mm, based on the pose
See that's the feeling I'm getting...but I really hope that isn't the case.
Like, I'm glad Skitarii are on 25mm. I think that works and should be the standard for more-or-less "average" humans/humanoids.
When I started picking up a few of the minis from Blackstone Fortress to add to my armies (i.e. the ranger, flamethrower-lady, the kroot dude), I was really disappointed to see that they were intended for 32mm and specifically fitted them onto 25mm to keep them consistent with what makes more sense for "regular" humanoids, to me. Fitting Vorne onto a 25mm base was actually kind of a pain but it just doesn't make sense to me putting models like these on the same-scale base as an astartes or equivalent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/28 13:31:19
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
So far though, they haven't toned it down. The armor is just as baroque as ever.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
But its not going to pierce the armor...and its not even that much of a bullet trap. Its a slight groove that has brooch looking thing over it. It probably doesn't have flesh under it; it doesn't look like a bust could actually fit in there.
Physics actually indicates that it wouldn't pierce. In order for the projectile to gain enough kinetic energy to pierce power armor on rebound, it would have to break the law of conservation of energy, as if it doesn't have enough kinetic energy to pierce the first time it shouldn't have enough energy to pierce the second time. Remember that some of that energy would be lost on rebound due to bullet deformation, heat, transference to the target, etc.
The scenario where in a bullet bounces off powered armor boob plate and pierces through to the heart is quite simply physically impossible, as the heart region is just as armored as the rest of the area. And that's assuming the projectile doesn't just shatter on impact, or flatten and drop off.
And that's even if such a shot occurs; the likelihood of a projectile hitting at that exact angle and rebounding to that exact point is so slim, you might as well just aim for the head or an joint.
The only marksmen I could think of that could do that in setting are Eldar and Vindicare, and they'd probably just go for something convenient than show off.
So yeah, the boob plate is fine, its part of the sister's identity, its not a threat to the wearer, it doesn't need to be changed.
33% chance of a penetration by a standard bolter or lasgun.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/28 13:40:03
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
So far though, they haven't toned it down. The armor is just as baroque as ever.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
But its not going to pierce the armor...and its not even that much of a bullet trap. Its a slight groove that has brooch looking thing over it. It probably doesn't have flesh under it; it doesn't look like a bust could actually fit in there.
Physics actually indicates that it wouldn't pierce. In order for the projectile to gain enough kinetic energy to pierce power armor on rebound, it would have to break the law of conservation of energy, as if it doesn't have enough kinetic energy to pierce the first time it shouldn't have enough energy to pierce the second time. Remember that some of that energy would be lost on rebound due to bullet deformation, heat, transference to the target, etc.
The scenario where in a bullet bounces off powered armor boob plate and pierces through to the heart is quite simply physically impossible, as the heart region is just as armored as the rest of the area. And that's assuming the projectile doesn't just shatter on impact, or flatten and drop off.
And that's even if such a shot occurs; the likelihood of a projectile hitting at that exact angle and rebounding to that exact point is so slim, you might as well just aim for the head or an joint.
The only marksmen I could think of that could do that in setting are Eldar and Vindicare, and they'd probably just go for something convenient than show off.
So yeah, the boob plate is fine, its part of the sister's identity, its not a threat to the wearer, it doesn't need to be changed.
33% chance of a penetration by a standard bolter or lasgun.
No, not penetration, more like 33% of the shot finding a weak point.
Which is possible because they aren't wearing a helmet In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/29 00:44:48
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
Any rules structure for a game system imposes limitations by the process of abstraction and that's going to be exacerbated the fewer possible outcomes there are for a given scenario. A single D6 doesn't allow for many outcomes so the degree of abstraction is more pronounced.
That's fine, though, because at the end of the day from a gameplay perspective being fun and playable is more important than representing precisely how likely or unlikely it is that a single lasgun shot can injure/kill someone wearing power armour.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
No, not penetration, more like 33% of the shot finding a weak point.
Which is possible because they aren't wearing a helmet In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
Yeah fluff /= rules, otherwise this would be a game of 10 marines vs 100+ Orks or IG. Which would be interesting, but not really the game we have.
If you need logic, how's this? 40k armies are already the best of the best, they're already the NY Yankees or Manchester United or whoever. The IG army that has type V lasguns but were issued type IV power cells, they're over the hill being eaten. The Orks who think stone spears are better than shootas, they're across the valley being mopped up by a demi squad of scouts. The guys who are good enough to play for reals, that's my army, your army, his army.
So the IG dudes have amped up power cells, top quality laser lenses and super cooled barrels. The cultists have been issued explosive rounds from the off-world arms dealer. The Orks have been screaming Waaaaagh for hours and amping up their belief that bullets can pierce power armor.
Either that, or assume every Ork/IG/Cultist/Gaunt model acutally represents like 10 guys.
In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
Any rules structure for a game system imposes limitations by the process of abstraction and that's going to be exacerbated the fewer possible outcomes there are for a given scenario. A single D6 doesn't allow for many outcomes so the degree of abstraction is more pronounced.
That's fine, though, because at the end of the day from a gameplay perspective being fun and playable is more important than representing precisely how likely or unlikely it is that a single lasgun shot can injure/kill someone wearing power armour.
Yeah, I understand that. In fact, I do believe second edition went for a more realistic approach, complete with weapons jamming and tough power armor. Apparently it was a bit of a hassle to play though, which is why things got trimmed down and "tamed" for the sake of balance and expediency. Which is understandable, even though it does conflict with the background from time to time.
No, not penetration, more like 33% of the shot finding a weak point. Which is possible because they aren't wearing a helmet In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
Yeah fluff /= rules, otherwise this would be a game of 10 marines vs 100+ Orks or IG. Which would be interesting, but not really the game we have.
They tried that in a White Dwarf, actually. Movie Marines they were called. It didn't catch on
If you need logic, how's this? 40k armies are already the best of the best, they're already the NY Yankees or Manchester United or whoever. The IG army that has type V lasguns but were issued type IV power cells, they're over the hill being eaten. The Orks who think stone spears are better than shootas, they're across the valley being mopped up by a demi squad of scouts. The guys who are good enough to play for reals, that's my army, your army, his army.
So the IG dudes have amped up power cells, top quality laser lenses and super cooled barrels. The cultists have been issued explosive rounds from the off-world arms dealer. The Orks have been screaming Waaaaagh for hours and amping up their belief that bullets can pierce power armor.
Either that, or assume every Ork/IG/Cultist/Gaunt model acutally represents like 10 guys.
Or assume Murphy's Law applies to everything. Like, a las-shot somehow detonates a Power Armor Power Supply, or a Plasma Gun at that very moment, after hundreds of years of working properly, decides that it develops a fault that gives it a 16.7% chance of going supernova about 2 seconds before the user pulls the trigger.
Come to think of it, Murphy's Law actually fits the table top quite well; everyone has a high chance of missing despite their high training and tech, armor has a high chance of failing or weak points exploited by lucky shots, and large, bloodthirsty demons who's lived for thousands of years and slaughtered billions suddenly find themselves getting repeatedly stabbed in the eye by a farmboy from Cadia after tripping over a small rock.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/05/28 14:19:12
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
So far though, they haven't toned it down. The armor is just as baroque as ever.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
But its not going to pierce the armor...and its not even that much of a bullet trap. Its a slight groove that has brooch looking thing over it. It probably doesn't have flesh under it; it doesn't look like a bust could actually fit in there.
Physics actually indicates that it wouldn't pierce. In order for the projectile to gain enough kinetic energy to pierce power armor on rebound, it would have to break the law of conservation of energy, as if it doesn't have enough kinetic energy to pierce the first time it shouldn't have enough energy to pierce the second time. Remember that some of that energy would be lost on rebound due to bullet deformation, heat, transference to the target, etc. The scenario where in a bullet bounces off powered armor boob plate and pierces through to the heart is quite simply physically impossible, as the heart region is just as armored as the rest of the area. And that's assuming the projectile doesn't just shatter on impact, or flatten and drop off.
And that's even if such a shot occurs; the likelihood of a projectile hitting at that exact angle and rebounding to that exact point is so slim, you might as well just aim for the head or an joint. The only marksmen I could think of that could do that in setting are Eldar and Vindicare, and they'd probably just go for something convenient than show off.
So yeah, the boob plate is fine, its part of the sister's identity, its not a threat to the wearer, it doesn't need to be changed.
33% chance of a penetration by a standard bolter or lasgun.
No, not penetration, more like 33% of the shot finding a weak point. Which is possible because they aren't wearing a helmet In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
I would call a bullet trap a weak point.
Even plate armor could be defeated by raw brute force. Not to mention armor weakens and deforms as it gets hit, particularly by gunfire. Which means that area starts to lose protection as it gets hit.
Either that, or assume every Ork/IG/Cultist/Gaunt model acutally represents like 10 guys.
That's how it used to work for warhammer fantasy.
One goblin/skaven equaled 20 people. One human equaled 10 people. One dwarf/lizardman/chaos warrior (not mauraders) stood for five. One elf model was one person.
So your 40 model goblin unit was 800 doods. Your 20 man empire spears was 200. 20 dwarves were actually 100. And twenty elves were twenty elves.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/28 15:08:32
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
So far though, they haven't toned it down. The armor is just as baroque as ever.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
But its not going to pierce the armor...and its not even that much of a bullet trap. Its a slight groove that has brooch looking thing over it. It probably doesn't have flesh under it; it doesn't look like a bust could actually fit in there.
Physics actually indicates that it wouldn't pierce. In order for the projectile to gain enough kinetic energy to pierce power armor on rebound, it would have to break the law of conservation of energy, as if it doesn't have enough kinetic energy to pierce the first time it shouldn't have enough energy to pierce the second time. Remember that some of that energy would be lost on rebound due to bullet deformation, heat, transference to the target, etc. The scenario where in a bullet bounces off powered armor boob plate and pierces through to the heart is quite simply physically impossible, as the heart region is just as armored as the rest of the area. And that's assuming the projectile doesn't just shatter on impact, or flatten and drop off.
And that's even if such a shot occurs; the likelihood of a projectile hitting at that exact angle and rebounding to that exact point is so slim, you might as well just aim for the head or an joint. The only marksmen I could think of that could do that in setting are Eldar and Vindicare, and they'd probably just go for something convenient than show off.
So yeah, the boob plate is fine, its part of the sister's identity, its not a threat to the wearer, it doesn't need to be changed.
33% chance of a penetration by a standard bolter or lasgun.
No, not penetration, more like 33% of the shot finding a weak point. Which is possible because they aren't wearing a helmet In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
I would call a bullet trap a weak point.
Even plate armor could be defeated by raw brute force.
Well yeah, from a specialized weapon such a pole arm or a greatsword. Not a small arms equivalent, such a mace or a sword, which weren't as effective at breaking plate. Maces were more for knocking opponents off balance to expose a weak point, not for bashing through. You are basically comparing a lascannon to a lasgun.
If a shot can't pierce through the power armor on its initial hit, its not going to pierce through on the rebound against the same material. Its not suddenly going to gain kinetic energy just because it changed direction. If we're talking about it being channeled towards an unarmored section of the body that'll be a point, but the chest is completely armored. It just doesn't follow.
Also, its going to take a lot of ammunition to damage armor enough to break through it. Its just not efficient, and it will take a lot of sustained fire against the same exact point over and over to get there. Again, you're better off going for the head or a joint. Or bring a plasma gun.
You should really be more worried about the head. Speaking of which - the lack of Sabbat pattern helmets is disconcerting. That is a cool helmet design. I did see them on the Retributors, which is nice, but what about the rank and file?
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2019/05/28 15:42:46
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2019/05/28 15:32:05
Subject: Re:[Adepta Sororitas] Heavy Weapons pg 23
I feel like the arguing over boob plate belongs in background or general discussion or something as it's distracting from the actual discussion of the models themselves.
For the record: there is no fluff that states that Sisters of Battle armour is designed the way it is to make them appear to be 'visibly' female, or that they employ it for that purpose. This was always a fan theory meant to explain away the boob plate. It may make sense - either as a product of Vandire being a perv or the ecclesiarchy wanting to rub everyone's noses in their technical adherence to the Decree Passive, and it may be compatible with other popular fan theories like the boobs themselves being essentially hollow embellishments on more sensibly cut armour that shatter harmlessly rather than catch and direct bullets into the sternum; but AFAIK it is not actual canon from any of the books, and shouldn't be propped up as such.
On topic: while sufficiently small infantry such as GSC acolytes, scions, fire warriors, etc all still come with 25mm bases, the sisters have always hung over the edges of small bases - given the fact that they aren't in these renders makes it pretty obvious we're looking at 32mm bases here. And that's fine, Sisters work alot better on 32s.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/28 15:37:30
So, just to clarify, this is meant to be hair, right?
I'm not sure how that's to look painted. It looks pretty flat. I can see a bit of detail, but I don't think it will be enough for it to actually look like hair when painted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/28 16:18:28
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
It will look fine once you paint in vertical highlights. Most hairstyles don’t actually have dents and creases that would be detectable on a miniature at this scale and it looks like they’ve chosen to roll with that.
"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
2019/05/28 16:52:35
Subject: Re:[Adepta Sororitas] Heavy Weapons pg 23
I'll go out on a limb here and say most people still prefer sculpted lines like the metals have because it makes them easier to recognizably paint as hair.
Worth keeping in mind, though, that people have been able to cope with this kind of hair sculpting (or lack thereof) since at least plastic Scouts. If you don't paint like 'Eavy Metal to showcase the exact features of the models, you can make believable hair out of this easily enough.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
Its to prove that they aren't Men at Arms. Its basically the Ecclessiarchy passively aggressively going "see, they aren't men, so shut up"
Pretty much this.
They're armored to look feminine because they have to prove that they're following imperial law.
No, they don't.
I guess it's time for a FA-FA-FA-FACTSTORM :
- We don't know when the current Sisters armor was designed, or by whom. There is really no official fluff on this. - The Sisters didn't appear *after* the Decree Passive. Really, it's the opposite: Sisters existed before (called Daughters instead), and the Decree Passive was written to allow Sisters to continue existing BY PURPOSE!* Hence there is no reason for Sisters of Battle armor to be explicitly feminine.
*After Vandire was killed, there was a big trial of Sebastian Thor, because he did lead to some uprising against someone who was still the rightful authority. He did very well at the trial, though, and was acquitted as he never explicitly asked people to rebel. However there was a need to find a new Ecclesiarch, and the peoples in charge really really wanted for Thor to take the position. Sebastian Thor wanted to do pilgrimage around the galaxy, and didn't want to be space pope. They had to argue very hard for him to accept becoming Ecclesiarch. He got a bunch of concessions as a result, and keeping the Sisters of Battle was one of them. You can read on this in Codex: Sisters of Battle v2. I'll post pictures next time I go back where my 2nd ed dex is.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/28 20:25:56
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
So far though, they haven't toned it down. The armor is just as baroque as ever.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
But its not going to pierce the armor...and its not even that much of a bullet trap. Its a slight groove that has brooch looking thing over it. It probably doesn't have flesh under it; it doesn't look like a bust could actually fit in there.
Physics actually indicates that it wouldn't pierce. In order for the projectile to gain enough kinetic energy to pierce power armor on rebound, it would have to break the law of conservation of energy, as if it doesn't have enough kinetic energy to pierce the first time it shouldn't have enough energy to pierce the second time. Remember that some of that energy would be lost on rebound due to bullet deformation, heat, transference to the target, etc.
The scenario where in a bullet bounces off powered armor boob plate and pierces through to the heart is quite simply physically impossible, as the heart region is just as armored as the rest of the area. And that's assuming the projectile doesn't just shatter on impact, or flatten and drop off.
And that's even if such a shot occurs; the likelihood of a projectile hitting at that exact angle and rebounding to that exact point is so slim, you might as well just aim for the head or an joint.
The only marksmen I could think of that could do that in setting are Eldar and Vindicare, and they'd probably just go for something convenient than show off.
So yeah, the boob plate is fine, its part of the sister's identity, its not a threat to the wearer, it doesn't need to be changed.
33% chance of a penetration by a standard bolter or lasgun.
No, not penetration, more like 33% of the shot finding a weak point.
Which is possible because they aren't wearing a helmet In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
I would call a bullet trap a weak point.
Even plate armor could be defeated by raw brute force.
Well yeah, from a specialized weapon such a pole arm or a greatsword. Not a small arms equivalent, such a mace or a sword, which weren't as effective at breaking plate. Maces were more for knocking opponents off balance to expose a weak point, not for bashing through. You are basically comparing a lascannon to a lasgun.
If a shot can't pierce through the power armor on its initial hit, its not going to pierce through on the rebound against the same material. Its not suddenly going to gain kinetic energy just because it changed direction.
If we're talking about it being channeled towards an unarmored section of the body that'll be a point, but the chest is completely armored. It just doesn't follow.
Also, its going to take a lot of ammunition to damage armor enough to break through it. Its just not efficient, and it will take a lot of sustained fire against the same exact point over and over to get there.
Again, you're better off going for the head or a joint. Or bring a plasma gun.
You should really be more worried about the head.
Speaking of which - the lack of Sabbat pattern helmets is disconcerting. That is a cool helmet design. I did see them on the Retributors, which is nice, but what about the rank and file?
Maces were 'anti-plate'. They could cause injury through the armor. People didn't 'just use them to throw people off balance'. Pole arms were the most common weapons in the world until the 1630's. When the gun replaced them. In tank armor, it's not unknown for shots to deflect of the glacias, and then punch through the turret. It's rare, but history is full of that rare event. The reason most armor is shaped the way it is, it to give a chance of deflection away from the person/vehicle. A shot trap basically does the opposite. It gives the shot a 2nd chance to pen the armor.
Depending on what weapon is used, and on what armor. WWI HE rounds were capable of deforming battleship armor, which made any follow up shots more effective. This is against feet of armor, and it happened with as few as one round. Of course using plasma would be a better choice. Aiming for a joint with a ranged weapon in most cases is a pointless exercise. Hitting center mass is hard enough. But even grot blasters have a chance to pen power armor.
I agree that they should be wearing helmets. GW a few times said they won't nessisarily make models with helmets, but to assume that the model was wearing one.
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
So far though, they haven't toned it down. The armor is just as baroque as ever.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
But its not going to pierce the armor...and its not even that much of a bullet trap. Its a slight groove that has brooch looking thing over it. It probably doesn't have flesh under it; it doesn't look like a bust could actually fit in there.
Physics actually indicates that it wouldn't pierce. In order for the projectile to gain enough kinetic energy to pierce power armor on rebound, it would have to break the law of conservation of energy, as if it doesn't have enough kinetic energy to pierce the first time it shouldn't have enough energy to pierce the second time. Remember that some of that energy would be lost on rebound due to bullet deformation, heat, transference to the target, etc. The scenario where in a bullet bounces off powered armor boob plate and pierces through to the heart is quite simply physically impossible, as the heart region is just as armored as the rest of the area. And that's assuming the projectile doesn't just shatter on impact, or flatten and drop off.
And that's even if such a shot occurs; the likelihood of a projectile hitting at that exact angle and rebounding to that exact point is so slim, you might as well just aim for the head or an joint. The only marksmen I could think of that could do that in setting are Eldar and Vindicare, and they'd probably just go for something convenient than show off.
So yeah, the boob plate is fine, its part of the sister's identity, its not a threat to the wearer, it doesn't need to be changed.
33% chance of a penetration by a standard bolter or lasgun.
No, not penetration, more like 33% of the shot finding a weak point. Which is possible because they aren't wearing a helmet In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
I would call a bullet trap a weak point.
Even plate armor could be defeated by raw brute force.
Well yeah, from a specialized weapon such a pole arm or a greatsword. Not a small arms equivalent, such a mace or a sword, which weren't as effective at breaking plate. Maces were more for knocking opponents off balance to expose a weak point, not for bashing through. You are basically comparing a lascannon to a lasgun.
If a shot can't pierce through the power armor on its initial hit, its not going to pierce through on the rebound against the same material. Its not suddenly going to gain kinetic energy just because it changed direction. If we're talking about it being channeled towards an unarmored section of the body that'll be a point, but the chest is completely armored. It just doesn't follow.
Also, its going to take a lot of ammunition to damage armor enough to break through it. Its just not efficient, and it will take a lot of sustained fire against the same exact point over and over to get there. Again, you're better off going for the head or a joint. Or bring a plasma gun.
You should really be more worried about the head. Speaking of which - the lack of Sabbat pattern helmets is disconcerting. That is a cool helmet design. I did see them on the Retributors, which is nice, but what about the rank and file?
Maces were 'anti-plate'. They could cause injury through the armor
I've read otherwise. They tended to wear padding under the armor, which would have absorbed most impact, and well made plate was designed in such a way that the force from impacts would be redistributed away from the wearer. Then again, there's a lot of conflicting information out there about the effectiveness of medieval weapons and armor. Just look at longbows; some will say they can pierce armor, others will say they can't.
As per the turret example - was the turret made of the same material and had the same thickness? Because those are important factors. Don't modern tanks have shot traps anyway? I see a lot of big gaps between the turret and the hull in modern tanks. Apparently modern tank rounds travel at such a high velocity that they just break apart or get stuck if they fail to pierce. Either they penetrate or they don't. I still don't see how a shot can suddenly gain kinetic energy after deflection. I don't think ballistics work like that.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/05/29 00:03:40
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
- We don't know when the current Sisters armor was designed, or by whom. There is really no official fluff on this.
- The Sisters didn't appear *after* the Decree Passive. Really, it's the opposite: Sisters existed before (called Daughters instead), and the Decree Passive was written to allow Sisters to continue existing BY PURPOSE!*
Hence there is no reason for Sisters of Battle armor to be explicitly feminine.
*After Vandire was killed, there was a big trial of Sebastian Thor, because he did lead to some uprising against someone who was still the rightful authority. He did very well at the trial, though, and was acquitted as he never explicitly asked people to rebel. However there was a need to find a new Ecclesiarch, and the peoples in charge really really wanted for Thor to take the position. Sebastian Thor wanted to do pilgrimage around the galaxy, and didn't want to be space pope. They had to argue very hard for him to accept becoming Ecclesiarch. He got a bunch of concessions as a result, and keeping the Sisters of Battle was one of them. You can read on this in Codex: Sisters of Battle v2. I'll post pictures next time I go back where my 2nd ed dex is.
This was already addressed by another poster. They didn't change equipment at all.
Noone mentioned the Sebastian Thor trial and how he got concessions like Sisters continued existence.
Source for the no equipment change?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
That's not fact that's conjecture buddy.
The fact is:
- We don't know when the current Sisters armor was designed, or by whom. There is really no official fluff on this.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Armour is not always made 100% functional. In fact, many armour types had specific flourishes and extremes of designs that were not practical in any fashion. Some were done purely for the aesthetic or to mimic the style of the time it was created.
So the next time you want to criticise high heels or boobplate, remember this word:
Codpiece
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/29 03:10:38
Armour is not always made 100% functional. In fact, many armour types had specific flourishes and extremes of designs that were not practical in any fashion. Some were done purely for the aesthetic or to mimic the style of the time it was created.
So the next time you want to criticise high heels or boobplate, remember this word:
Codpiece
And to add to that, 40k is a universe where magic, especially magic based on belief actually works.
If I was fighting and army of demons you can be damn sure my armor would be covered with crosses and images of saints. If a bare head showed the demons that I was unafraid and faith was my shield, I'd never wear a helmet.
Impractical aspects can be excused in a universe where this stuff actually works.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/29 03:22:41
Armour is not always made 100% functional. In fact, many armour types had specific flourishes and extremes of designs that were not practical in any fashion. Some were done purely for the aesthetic or to mimic the style of the time it was created.
So the next time you want to criticise high heels or boobplate, remember this word:
Codpiece
And to add to that, 40k is a universe where magic, especially magic based on belief actually works.
If I was fighting and army of demons you can be damn sure my armor would be covered with crosses and images of saints. If a bare head showed the demons that I was unafraid and faith was my shield, I'd never wear a helmet.
Impractical aspects can be excused in a universe where this stuff actually works.
The problem is you(like, I would wager, most people) are operating under the impression that "it's fantastical fiction" means it doesn't have to represent reality, and so it can have things in it that reality doesn't, even things that make some people squeamish or that they find outright offensive, providing they serve to reinforce the fiction's core themes, tone, and aesthetic qualities.
The people who object to this stuff are operating under the impression that "it's fantastical fiction" means it doesn't have any rules, and so there's never any excuse for deviating from the set of modern social mores that could be summed up as "woke", and no reason to do so other than some kind of latent bigotry in the writers and/or fanbase.
There's no point discussing it endlessly, because there's zero common ground there.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Yodhrin wrote: The problem is you(like, I would wager, most people) are operating under the impression that "it's fantastical fiction" means it doesn't have to represent reality, and so it can have things in it that reality doesn't, even things that make some people squeamish or that they find outright offensive, providing they serve to reinforce the fiction's core themes, tone, and aesthetic qualities.
The people who object to this stuff are operating under the impression that "it's fantastical fiction" means it doesn't have any rules, and so there's never any excuse for deviating from the set of modern social mores that could be summed up as "woke", and no reason to do so other than some kind of latent bigotry in the writers and/or fanbase.
There's no point discussing it endlessly, because there's zero common ground there.
Normally I agree with you, in the sense that the more fantastical the universe the more sense the mundane aspects have to make, as those are the things that tend to break SoD (as opposed to space wizards and daemon legions arriving from another dimension).
However, as I stated, armour, throughout our own history, has not only been a method of protecting oneself but also has been reflective of the styles of the time. Again, the codpiece example, it doesn't make any sense from a practicality standpoint. It serves no practical purpose and in fact could hamper the user in certain places. Yet, they did it anyway. Why? Because armour, like clothing today, was fashion, and thus reflected the attitudes and desires of the time it was created.
For that reason, "boob plate" and high-heels on power armour aren't enough to break SoD because it is completely reasonable to assume that these things could come into being if that was the style the makers (or the eventual user) wanted to make. Do you think armoured chest plates taht showed off nipples/abs were in any way practical? Of course not. But they were there to show strength. Just like idiotic giant impractical codpieces.
And that's before we get to the "boob-plate would make your armour weaker!" which is a fallacious argument to start with.
Armour is not always made 100% functional. In fact, many armour types had specific flourishes and extremes of designs that were not practical in any fashion. Some were done purely for the aesthetic or to mimic the style of the time it was created.
So the next time you want to criticise high heels or boobplate, remember this word:
Codpiece
And to add to that, 40k is a universe where magic, especially magic based on belief actually works.
If I was fighting and army of demons you can be damn sure my armor would be covered with crosses and images of saints. If a bare head showed the demons that I was unafraid and faith was my shield, I'd never wear a helmet.
Impractical aspects can be excused in a universe where this stuff actually works.
This, very much this!
It would be weird if that stuff didnt work.
In a universe where to start your "car", you sing a song to it and tap 3 times on rune of staring, boob plate being a bad design doesnt even register on the scale.
~4100
~1660
