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 Melissia wrote:
And? That doesn't contradict the wide-ranging existence of cybernetic plugs and mind-impulse units.

But that isn't what was said.
What was said was that "Up until the release of these miniatures, the only power armour plugs were for the black carapace" - which is accurate.

There are many other kinds of plugs, but the body-covering array of power-armour plugs have long been a distinct feature of the space marines, and one of the visual physical characteristics that separated them from bulky muscular humans.

 Melissia wrote:
The plugs make the Repentia look like they're ex-powera armor users, which is exactly what they should look like. That Sisters so rarely get new lore is no reason, in and of itself, they shouldn't get new lore.

If they didn't have plugs they'd still look like ex-power armour users, for all models of sisters power armour prior to yesterday - this is a case of using the retcon to explain the retcon.

Though at the end of the day fluff is just fluff. The more relevant question is whether the ports make the model look better, worse, or more/less able to fit visually with the rest of the army. (the latter point is what makes the edited robed repentia work for instance - the robes tie the models to the power armoured sisters visually on the table).

I like the idea that the fervent sisters are covered with Armour Stigmata in sympathy with the Emperor's armour, but lose the right to bear such marks in their disgrace, and must cover them with sin-pasties chastisement disks.

Guard also get stuff like cyber eyes. PA plugs are a completely different category of tech and are obviously associated with SM. The only PA that requires this kind of interface, up til now, has been Astartes PA. As a literary conceit, this emphasizes the strange, transhuman nature of SM. The argument that Sororitas need PA interface plugs for the very reason that they are normal people is completely bogus, considering Astartes also NEED those plugs and are anything but normal humans.

Never before have Sisters needed to undergo surgery to simply don their PA. Making that a thing now obviously contradicts the core concept that these women are just physically normal humans who have decided to go up against the worst the galaxy and the Warp can throw at humanity.

A.T. wrote:
There are many other kinds of plugs, but the body-covering array of power-armour plugs have long been a distinct feature of the space marines

Then I misunderstood your objection.

Your objection is still irrelevant to me. The Black Carapace isn't merely a "body-covering array of plugs". It is a thin film of plastic and nerve implanted directly beneath the skin of the torso in thin sheets. Once it hardens, it sends invasive neural bundles into the body, and interface ports are carved in to it. It's actually basically an additional sensory organ, one that is natural to the Space Marine body and interfaces far better than any cybernetics the Imperium is capable of producing, and does more than merely send signals from the brain to the armor telling the latter to move, but also provides direct feedback between the Space Marine and their power armor, letting both know and react in various ways to everything going on with the other. This is why Space Marines treat their armor as a "second skin".

 Melissia wrote:
Your objection is still irrelevant to me. The Black Carapace isn't merely a "body-covering array of plugs".

Well it kind of is[b] when you are talking about the appearance of a new model.

Those plugs give the repentia a visual appearance that up until now was distinct and unique to the astartes.

I do not like this Retcon with the plugs, and it directly takes away from this model for me.

maybe its because my other Imperial faction of interest is mechanicus, where such connectors look more than right and would be holy, now on models like this makes it jarring. maybe it's that i expected more build in scars and not mechanical things in general on a repentia model. maybe it's the Retcon overall that to me takes away from the religious strength i got out of the sisters in the first place.

however I get to this, it makes them less worth it, especially if i tried to fix them. im already having to greenstuff robes, because that image of the repentia with edited tattered robes is as close as i like the model thusfar combined with the most scarred head. then id have to file off the plugs, to add scars, seals or other markings.a rather in depth fix to me per model after waiting a near decade for a new one, and 14 since it's actual release.

 Manchu wrote:
Guard also get stuff like cyber eyes. PA plugs are a completely different category of tech and are obviously associated with SM. The only PA that requires this kind of interface, up til now, has been Astartes PA. As a literary conceit, this emphasizes the strange, transhuman nature of SM. The argument that Sororitas need PA interface plugs for the very reason that they are normal people is completely bogus, considering Astartes also NEED those plugs and are anything but normal humans.

Never before have Sisters needed to undergo surgery to simply don their PA. Making that a thing now obviously contradicts the core concept that these women are just physically normal humans who have decided to go up against the worst the galaxy and the Warp can throw at humanity.

Being able to smoothly use power armour without some sort of an interface makes little sense . And considering how prevalent cyber tech is in the setting not having this would be weird. Yes, it is a change (or at least new information.) Get over it. And in case you don't, there is a dedicated thread for this topic on the background section, so it might be a good idea to continue the discussion there.

A.T. wrote:
Those plugs give the repentia a visual appearance that up until now was distinct and unique to the astartes.

Astartes without power armor never had plugs like these.

Let me check by going through all the official miniatures of marines without armor. How many of them are there?
Ah...

did anyone think that those plugs may be on a body stocking and not surgically implanted into them?

Who care about plugs, there is an incredible new invention.....its called a hobby knife and it can do a multitude of amazing feats of sharpness.

I'm about 50/50 with the repentia, I like that there is not a tactical rock amongst them & the posing is excellent. Unfortunately on the other hand, some of the heads look weird(prob just crap render) and just look like there is something missing.

Still firmly starting Sororitas when then release(whenever that is)

They’ll probably look way better as physical models anyway. I find renders always look quite different to the final model.

 Melissia wrote:

A.T. wrote:
Those plugs give the repentia a visual appearance that up until now was distinct and unique to the astartes.

Astartes without power armor never had plugs like these.

They explicitly have interface plugs for their armour, I even quoted as such earlier. It's a long standing part of the lore and you are well aware of that.
Page 19 of the deathwatch FFG book if you don't fancy looking up an image yourself.

 Manchu wrote:
Sisters are regular people. They aren’t super heroes. The notion that they have special implants to allow them to wear their armor cuts against this core aspect of their faction identity. Therefore, to me, it’s a really bad retcon.

The notion that, in the 40k setting, even certain civilians require implants to interact with technology is beside the point. Even more so, the idea that Titan pilots have them. For the same reason you wouldn’t design IG sculpts with these implants, neither should Sororitas have them.

They still don't "require" implants though, that much is confirmed with the article about these miniatures. Non-Astartes Power Armour does not need implants in order to be wearable, but that doesn't mean some sort of interface isn't helpful or that plugs aren't an option.They're a faction that uses power armour almost exclusively, why is it a problem if they're better prepared to use the armour that they know they're all going to be wearing rather than each of them wearing a bodysuit interface or something along those lines?

I just don't like the visual the plugs give to sisters.

At least in my mind those speak too much "Nude SM".

 Galas wrote:
I just don't like the visual the plugs give to sisters.

At least in my mind those speak too much "Nude SM".

Yeah, it feels like it robs both Sisters and Marines of some of their unique identity. SM had their Black Carapace, SoB had pure bad ass attitude, everyone had power armour and all was well.

It's not like Sisters suddenly became female Space Marines, but why nudge them in that direction, even if a little bit?

To respond:

- it doesn’t make sense to be able to use PA w/o plugs

Why? SM use an interface to have a greater connection, not to make using PA possible. This argument has no merit.

- maybe the plugs aren’t necessary, they are just an upgrade

This is a good point — but are there Repentia models without plugs?

- just use a hobby knife to carve out the plugs

The objection is to potential fluff retcon; arguing about conversion potential doesn’t respond to that point.

Well, I guess I respond here as a mod continues to insist on derailing this thread with fluff complaints.

How the hell would you use PA without some sort of neural connection? It would need medical electrodes at minimum. How else would the armour know how to move? And if you're going to use the armour most of the time for decades, you might as well have those electrodes permanently crafted on yous the technology to do so is commonplace.

And yes, It is a fluff retcon, we know. And it is a good one.

 Manchu wrote:
To respond:


- maybe the plugs aren’t necessary, they are just an upgrade

This is a good point — but are there Repentia models without plugs?

Plugs aren't neccesary, but that doesn't mean interfacing with the armour isn't advantageus,so considering that -why wouldn't an army that knows they're all going to be using power armour and pretty much just power armour go for a plug-based interface rather than all of them having to wear special suits instead?

 Crimson wrote:
Well, I guess I respond here as a mod continues to insist on derailing this thread with fluff complaints.

How the hell would you use PA without some sort of neural connection? It would need medical electrodes at minimum. How else would the armour know how to move? And if you're going to use the armour most of the time for decades, you might as well have those electrodes permanently crafted on yous the technology to do so is commonplace.

And yes, It is a fluff retcon, we know. And it is a good one.

The image that the lore about Sisters and Inquisitors wearing power armour has always been a funny one to me. Without any sort of interface then they’d probably be exerting a lot of effort trying to get it to move. Slow and draggy movements.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, I guess I respond here as a mod continues to insist on derailing this thread with fluff complaints.

How the hell would you use PA without some sort of neural connection? It would need medical electrodes at minimum. How else would the armour know how to move? And if you're going to use the armour most of the time for decades, you might as well have those electrodes permanently crafted on yous the technology to do so is commonplace.

And yes, It is a fluff retcon, we know. And it is a good one.

The image that the lore about Sisters and Inquisitors wearing power armour has always been a funny one to me. Without any sort of interface then they’d probably be exerting a lot of effort trying to get it to move. Slow and draggy movements.

Or some degree of lag, at the very least, as the artificial muscle fibres (or whatever the tech is) have to respond to your body actually moving, as opposed to the electrical signal sent to your muscles to make you move.

It might only be a matter of milliseconds, but that can be vital in combat.

Discussion of the fluff retcon implied by the new sculpts is absolutely and obviously on topic ITT.

There is no reason at all to assume PA requires a neural interface to work or even work well. This has NEVER previously been the case in the 40k setting, after all.

A special interface was invented for the SM to emphasize their transhuman, super elite brand image. This would be completely contrary to the Adepta Sororitas brand, in the same way it would be contrary to IG branding.

It makes some sense to say that, for example, elite veteran Sororitas sometimes earn the privilege of undergoing surgeries to implant these performance enhancing plugs. But making them standard issue, and connecting them to using PA as an implied requirement, is a bad choice that cuts against what actually makes Sisters special.

 Dysartes wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, I guess I respond here as a mod continues to insist on derailing this thread with fluff complaints.

How the hell would you use PA without some sort of neural connection? It would need medical electrodes at minimum. How else would the armour know how to move? And if you're going to use the armour most of the time for decades, you might as well have those electrodes permanently crafted on yous the technology to do so is commonplace.

And yes, It is a fluff retcon, we know. And it is a good one.

The image that the lore about Sisters and Inquisitors wearing power armour has always been a funny one to me. Without any sort of interface then they’d probably be exerting a lot of effort trying to get it to move. Slow and draggy movements.

Or some degree of lag, at the very least, as the artificial muscle fibres (or whatever the tech is) have to respond to your body actually moving, as opposed to the electrical signal sent to your muscles to make you move.

It might only be a matter of milliseconds, but that can be vital in combat.

Thats why Sisters drill for hours every day to use it. Or at least they used to.

Anyway, why are people treating power armor like its a one-piece mech suit?

And that, Sim-Life, takes us back to what makes Sisters actually cool: they are not genetically and technologically enhanced super soldiers. They are physically ordinary humans with extraordinary religious zeal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sim-Life wrote:Anyway, why are people treating power armor like its a one-piece mech suit?

Great question. And I suspect the answer is, basically, people assume the fluff specific to SM must in some way be universal to the whole setting. This is exactly why Sororitas should not have these plugs, if they are indeed PA interfaces.

They don’t have the Black Carapace or transhuman physiology. There’s your distinction. If you don’t like it that’s fine but you don’t get to say they should not have the plugs... GW have decided they do. Go figure.

 Manchu wrote:

There is no reason at all to assume PA requires a neural interface to work or even work well. This has NEVER previously been the case in the 40k setting, after all.

It being able to function at practical combat speed without some sort of a neural interface is implausible. Real life powered exoskeleton prototypes which do not rely on electrodes use advanced computers and sensors at each joint, and are still impractically slow. Advanced miniaturised computers are not a common technology in 40K, neural connections are.

A special interface was invented for the SM to emphasize their transhuman, super elite brand image. This would be completely contrary to the Adepta Sororitas brand, in the same way it would be contrary to IG branding.

It makes some sense to say that, for example, elite veteran Sororitas sometimes earn the privilege of undergoing surgeries to implant these performance enhancing plugs. But making them standard issue, and connecting them to using PA as an implied requirement, is a bad choice that cuts against what actually makes Sisters special.

In 40K little cybernetic plugs do not make anyone even a least bit superhuman. Bloody hive world scum to whom rat on a stick is an expensive gourmet meal can have bionics. Not using such a common technology in an obvious way would be silly.

 Crimson wrote:
Well, I guess I respond here as a mod continues to insist on derailing this thread with fluff complaints.

How the hell would you use PA without some sort of neural connection? It would need medical electrodes at minimum. How else would the armour know how to move? And if you're going to use the armour most of the time for decades, you might as well have those electrodes permanently crafted on yous the technology to do so is commonplace.

And yes, It is a fluff retcon, we know. And it is a good one.

Usually this is done like DARPA currently does with their prototypes, or like stuff like Shirow's landmates or Battletech's elemental battle armor work: the "muscles" of the armor replicate and amplify the movements of the wearer, allowing you to carry more weight, to run faster, to punch harder. The amount of lag on the replicated movement would depend entirely on the tech level of the suit, but it's also something you train for.

I do like the plugs, and I actually kinda prefer it to work that way in 40k, but that doesn't mean it's the only way. Not by a longshot.

 Manchu wrote:
And that, Sim-Life, takes us back to what makes Sisters actually cool: they are not genetically and technologically enhanced super soldiers. They are physically ordinary humans with extraordinary religious zeal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sim-Life wrote:Anyway, why are people treating power armor like its a one-piece mech suit?

Great question. And I suspect the answer is, basically, people assume the fluff specific to SM must in some way be universal to the whole setting. This is exactly why Sororitas should not have these plugs, if they are indeed PA interfaces.

There's no way in hell that SoB armor wouldn't just be ramshackle (but pretty) modifications to Space Marine power armor marks. This is 40k, duct tape mods are literally a religion.

ERJAK wrote:
There's no way in hell that SoB armor wouldn't just be ramshackle (but pretty) modifications to Space Marine power armor marks. This is 40k, duct tape mods are literally a religion.

Civilian powered armor has been a thing in the 40k setting since the very beginning.

While I don't care about the plugs because Imma scrape them off but just to add fuel to the fire:

The Imperium basically considers the human form holy yes? Hence all the "burn the mutant" wherin "mutant" could be someone with a particularly large wart or an unfortunate birthmark.

Why would the MOST holy and devout of the Emperor's followers mar their bodies, which are considered holy, with cybernetics?

 Sim-Life wrote:
While I don't care about the plugs because Imma scrape them off but just to add fuel to the fire:

The Imperium basically considers the human form holy yes? Hence all the "burn the mutant" wherin "mutant" could be someone with a particularly large wart or an unfortunate birthmark.

Why would the MOST holy and devout of the Emperor's followers mar their bodies, which are considered holy, with cybernetics?

But mutation is clearly not considered the same as bionics as far as the Imperial Creed is concerned. Ecclesiarchy officials are consistently depicted with bionics, both in art and miniatures, the latest example being the Black Fortress priest.