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A.T. wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No such thing exists on that model. I'm holding it in front of me right now and there is no "secondary exoskeleton".
You're making gak up.

Metal brace around the left arm (wrist to robes). Every single retributor model has the same extra reinforcement on their arms, unique to the heavy weapons.

I've made a point of painting them to stand out from the armour colour on many, many retributors in the past. So don't tell me i'm making gak up when you claim to be holding the damn thing and not seeing it - the arm reinforcements are clearly visible_on the picture you posted_

I think a possible slight brace on one arm is a bit different to the description as a secondary exoskeleton over their armour.

Do any Marine Heavy weapon models have anything similar?

 Crimson wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Crimson wrote:Explanation was not something that was sorely needed, but I think it is something that it is nice to have.

There is nothing to explain. Their PA clearly did not require interface implants. This was not an obvious in some poorly conceived fluff that needed to be fixed and inventing this interface requirement isn’t necessarily an improvement.

If you're satisfied with 'it works by magic', sure.

There were a few other explanations for how power armor in general functioned without the Black Carapace.

One was a neuro-body glove, which channeled nerve impulses to the suit.

Another was that the armor would sense your motion, and move itself to match.

Finally, some did require cybernetic implants to control their armor, but that was never specifically said to be a feature/requirement for sisters' armor.

The only one I know for sure being 'for sisters' was the 2nd from a Cain novel. But it is possible that there are different makes and models of armor that sisters use, and that the plugs could be for a newer/older suit, or are from one part of the galaxy. Or it could be a 'new' thing, something the Ministorum didn't see as needed, but became more accessable after the Cawl marines started getting deployed.

Hey, if you want to give up on your "they can't wield heavy weapons without an exterior exoskeleton, except when they can" argument, feel free.

I compared it to actual miniatures in my hands, and the difference is pretty minimal-- there's a bigger difference between the shape and appearance of the armor of the various canoness miniatures than this.

And in my eyes, it's not really enough to support the idea of an "additional external exoskeleton", which isn't present in in the art in C:WH for heavy weapons bearers.

A.T. wrote:
but honestly what is the point.

Hear hear.

We have two canonical miniature examples where a regular unaided guy is carrying a heavy bolter.

The idea that a lady wearing a suit of power armor now needs to have a special brace to hold one earns an official yikes from me.

A.T. wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Not interested in fanart as evidence to prove a point.

Did you bother to look at the OFFICIAL art I also pointed you towards?
You do know the black carapace is described as subdermal don't you? It is not a literal carapace of black material covering the marine with holes cut into it.

 Melissia wrote:
Compared it to another mini, and it looks pretty much identical to the "inside" armor of the left arm of the helmeted sister superior w/plasma pistol and chainsword, just slightly thicker.

Well at least you can apparently see it now.
I'd post a picture of the sister superiors entirely different armour but honestly what is the point.

An extra hydrolic is hardly "An exoskeleton over her armor" that you previously claimed.

the_scotsman wrote:FWIW, I asked a friend of mine who is a national-level broadsword competitor about the posing for these models. According to him they're uncommonly good two-handed sword poses. The main distinction between them and something like Tennis is how the user has to brace themselves against the weight versus simply swinging something light as hard as possible.

The poses are about as correct as you can get for a female human swinging something that weighs 3-4lbs(?). The positioning of the feet is such that they actually look like they're utilising proper form. Footwork is too often overlooked in "dynamically" posed minis.

Yeah, I'm feeling a lot of "moving the goalposts" here.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Do any Marine Heavy weapon models have anything similar?

No, just generic arms. Benefits of having individually sculpted metal models I guess - as mentioned they are absent from the arms of the new plastic retributor preview as well.

 Mmmpi wrote:
An extra hydrolic is hardly "An exoskeleton over her armor" that you previously claimed.

I don't know what else you would call a hydraulic brace mounted over the top of a piece of armour. All I can say is that it's an extra detail on the metal retributors arm, attached to the heavy weapon, extending from the hand back to the robes/elbow.
Make of it what you will.

 Mr Morden wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No such thing exists on that model. I'm holding it in front of me right now and there is no "secondary exoskeleton".
You're making gak up.

Metal brace around the left arm (wrist to robes). Every single retributor model has the same extra reinforcement on their arms, unique to the heavy weapons.

I've made a point of painting them to stand out from the armour colour on many, many retributors in the past. So don't tell me i'm making gak up when you claim to be holding the damn thing and not seeing it - the arm reinforcements are clearly visible_on the picture you posted_

I think a possible slight brace on one arm is a bit different to the description as a secondary exoskeleton over their armour.

Do any Marine Heavy weapon models have anything similar?

Devastators have reinforced leg armour, but that’s the only thing that’s remotely similar.

MkX is seemingly modular?

I say seemingly, because I’m not entirely sure that it is?

A.T. wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Do any Marine Heavy weapon models have anything similar?

No, just generic arms. Benefits of having individually sculpted metal models I guess - as mentioned they are absent from the arms of the new plastic retributor preview as well.

 Mmmpi wrote:
An extra hydrolic is hardly "An exoskeleton over her armor" that you previously claimed.

I don't know what else you would call a hydraulic brace mounted over the top of a piece of armour. All I can say is that it's an extra detail on the metal retributors arm, attached to the heavy weapon, extending from the hand back to the robes/elbow.
Make of it what you will.

It is an extra detail. It also looks like it's a part of the armor, and it's only on one arm, rather than being a separate piece. AKA, there are no straps, bolts, ect. Just a heavier glove.

the_scotsman wrote:

A.T. wrote:
but honestly what is the point.

Hear hear.

We have two canonical miniature examples where a regular unaided guy is carrying a heavy bolter.

The idea that a lady wearing a suit of power armor now needs to have a special brace to hold one earns an official yikes from me.

Imperial Guard nutter is one. Not sure on the other.

But if we look at Necromunda?



Even House Goliath have some form of bracer involved. And they’re rock.

Rather than ‘hurr durr wimmins are weeks’, is this not a continuation of a new design philosophy within the design studio? Indeed, GSC heavy weapons are designed, not conveniently for three arms, but because they’re effing heavy, and usually require some kind of body rig.

Can we also agree there’s a pretty significant difference between being able to lug around a heavy weapon, and fire it accurately? Especially when with such as a Heavy Bolter, the kickback is likely to be ferocious?

I think a bracer on a heavy weapon or one with a high ROF as an optional attachment makes a lot of sense as far as something that exists and might see use and doesn't necessarily indicate that it's something required to use a certain weapon effectively.

For instance the regular Space Wolf kit contains a storm bolter with an arm brace that we know isn't standard or required for their use - but it still makes sense that something like that would be out there and used by certain individuals who want better handling for their gear.

Much like how the newer devastator kit has those leg braces while we know marines don't NEED enhancements like that to their armour in order to operate heavy weapons. I bet it sure makes the experience nicer for them, though.

 Yodhrin wrote:


But, as Manchu keeps saying, a large part of the appeal of Sisters to people who like Sisters for what they are(as opposed to whatever they imagine they could be if only they were in charge and could change everything about them) is that they're not "superhuman". They're not "enhanced" by anything. They're just singular badasses who's rigorous training, unbending will, and fanatical faith enables them to stand toe-to-toe with horrors that would normally make anyone short of a Marine require their brown trousers, without a Commissar or Inquisitor to threaten them into it first in sight.

What made them special was the idea that they were so inherently exceptional only the type of equipment normally reserved for actual-posthuman war-monsters was worthy of them, and this seemingly tiny little insignificant change flips that on its head and insinuates that they have to be modified & enhanced to be made worthy to bear that equipment.

People can make all the arguments they like about how it's more logical, or that crude cybernetics are entirely in-keeping in the Imperium, or whatever else, but all of that misses the point that Sisters used to be Just That Awesome that they could use power armour out-of-the-box just by being that damned disciplined and highly trained, and now they aren't.

While I understand this, I don't think having interface plugs takes anything away from Sisters. Compared to wearing a specialized undersuit, as is suggested that other power armor users do, the ports are merely a convenience. Plenty of sisters are going to have replacement cybernetics from battle damage or other augmentations, because these things are extremely common in the Imperium.

I mean, Sisters are just that badass in the same way Commissars and Militarum Tempestus are - trained from birth and given the best equipment available, and that includes minor cybernetics to do their job better. They're not undergoing a decade of surgeries like a Space Marine does to become superhuman, it just means that the definition of 'ordinary' human is more than what it might seem at first blush.

Jack Flask wrote:
You can call that whatever logic fallacy you want but in an age where there are plastic Cawdor minis and a slight possibility of Receptionists as a future Necromunda release, it is not trivial to argue that a naked sister with doesn't look visually distinct from a normal human fanatic who picked up a chainsword.

Well, that's a potentially terrifying thought, for a couple of possible outcomes...

Wow, three pages of people being angry that an army with barely any background, kept on lifesupport for 20 years with almost all the models being released said 20 years ago gets some details...not even changed, just added. And apparently that is the dealbreaker, more details in how their armor works, because it makes them more like the power-armored boys, and we can't have that.

Cronch wrote:
Wow, three pages of people being angry that an army with barely any background, kept on lifesupport for 20 years with almost all the models being released said 20 years ago gets some details...not even changed, just added. And apparently that is the dealbreaker, more details in how their armor works, because it makes them more like the power-armored boys, and we can't have that.

"barely any backgroound"

That's hyperbole and you know it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

A.T. wrote:
but honestly what is the point.

Hear hear.

We have two canonical miniature examples where a regular unaided guy is carrying a heavy bolter.

The idea that a lady wearing a suit of power armor now needs to have a special brace to hold one earns an official yikes from me.

Imperial Guard nutter is one. Not sure on the other.

But if we look at Necromunda?



Even House Goliath have some form of bracer involved. And they’re rock.

Rather than ‘hurr durr wimmins are weeks’, is this not a continuation of a new design philosophy within the design studio? Indeed, GSC heavy weapons are designed, not conveniently for three arms, but because they’re effing heavy, and usually require some kind of body rig.

Can we also agree there’s a pretty significant difference between being able to lug around a heavy weapon, and fire it accurately? Especially when with such as a Heavy Bolter, the kickback is likely to be ferocious?

I wouldn't bother arguing. the_scotsman seems determined to turn this into a gendered argument despite very few people making any sexist remarks and most of us stating outright that we like Sisters BECAUSE they're strong women.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

A.T. wrote:
but honestly what is the point.

Hear hear.

We have two canonical miniature examples where a regular unaided guy is carrying a heavy bolter.

The idea that a lady wearing a suit of power armor now needs to have a special brace to hold one earns an official yikes from me.

Imperial Guard nutter is one. Not sure on the other.

But if we look at Necromunda?

Even House Goliath have some form of bracer involved. And they’re rock.

Rather than ‘hurr durr wimmins are weeks’, is this not a continuation of a new design philosophy within the design studio? Indeed, GSC heavy weapons are designed, not conveniently for three arms, but because they’re effing heavy, and usually require some kind of body rig.

Can we also agree there’s a pretty significant difference between being able to lug around a heavy weapon, and fire it accurately? Especially when with such as a Heavy Bolter, the kickback is likely to be ferocious?

GSC weapons are not designed for three arms, they're designed to have two handles for carrying and two handles for operating from a tripod (because they're big and heavy, and your fingers should not be by the triggers if it's being transported!).
Just so happens that if you have three arms, you can now carry the thing and use it at the same time.

That's hyperbole and you know it.

Compared to the absurd amount of detail we have about Marines, or even Guard? Absolutely. I'm willing to bet they have less written material than Tau at this point.

Cronch wrote:

That's hyperbole and you know it.

Compared to the absurd amount of detail we have about Marines, or even Guard? Absolutely. I'm willing to bet they have less written material than Tau at this point.

It should actually be about the same as the sum total of the entire Tau military personnel is about the same as the number of Battle Sisters.

Sisters have had a similar number of codexs and novels, Shield of Baal had about the same amount of Sisters coverage as the recent Tau vs Imperium camaign

and of course Sisters were featured on Viglilus (unlike Tau)

For clarity - my ‘hurr durr’ comment is not a dig or descriptive of anyone in this thread

 Melissia wrote:
And? That doesn't contradict the wide-ranging existence of cybernetic plugs and mind-impulse units. In many parts of the Imperium they are practically ubiquitous..

Um... they have a rarity on par with plasma pistols unless you want to get the gakky version. Further, in existing fluff SoB power armor can be worn by unaugmented mortals. The plugs sort of throw that out. In addition, those are NOT, based on descriptions, MIU interfaces. Their layout does most closely resemble the plugs for the Black Carapace, based on SM art. (And then someone reminded me that the SM armor supposedly now has an MIU, so there goes that line of reasoning.)



Let me just throw this out there, and see what happens but...

Could SoB have finally become FSM? The changes certainly seem to lean that way.

The idea that Sisters need braces to wield heavy weapons is rubbish, and I personally don't like that both Escher and Goliath have braces on their heavy weapons - they're both supposed to be freakishly strong. Orlock gangers needing them makes sense, as they're not unnaturally strong.

But to lay the "black carapace doesn't have external ports" crap to rest - from the 8th edition codex:

"The last gene-seed organ to be implanted in a Space Marine - the black carapace - rests beneath the skin, itself fitted with neural sensors and transfusion ports. These plug in points mesh with Space Marine armor, linking the wearer's nervous system to his suit's mind-impulse controls and turning the suit into a second skin that moves with the speed and precision of the battle brother's own body. Without the carapace. Space Marine armor is almost impossible to use, and it is therefore the most distinctive feature of a battle brother and the true mark of the Adeptus Astartes. "

There you go. Sisters and other humans don't need anything like the black carapace to wear regular power armor, and the ports on the Repentia model look exactly like those in illustrations of Space Marines. So what gives? It's pointless to have those on the Repentia models, and the time spent on them could've gone to improving other aspects of the models.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Further, in existing fluff SoB power armor can be worn by unaugmented mortals.

Can it? Is there actually some actual citations about this or is it just headcanon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zend wrote:
Without the carapace. Space Marine armor is almost impossible to use

And that means that any power armour user must have something at least somewhat similar or the power armour would be 'almost impossible to use' for them as well.

 zend wrote:
The idea that Sisters need braces to wield heavy weapons is rubbish, and I personally don't like that both Escher and Goliath have braces on their heavy weapons - they're both supposed to be freakishly strong. Orlock gangers needing them makes sense, as they're not unnaturally strong.

The small details on the metal models are actually quite sensible when you think about it. Sisters are often static defenders of shrines and other ecclesiarchal locations - why add extra wear and strain on your armours servos, why not add a little extra bracing against recoil.
Other models have similar little odds and ends added like the the fuel tank for the combi-weapon sister.

Now that i'm actually in a position to have one of the models in hand (the multi-melta in this case) I can see that the brace extends past the elbow and is also connected to cables coming from the weapon itself.

It's a shame the plastics are losing it IMO. Along with things like the big scopes that give a subtle impression that that under the gold and gothic styling the sisters are very practical soldiers.

 Crimson wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Further, in existing fluff SoB power armor can be worn by unaugmented mortals.

Can it? Is there actually some actual citations about this or is it just headcanon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zend wrote:
Without the carapace. Space Marine armor is almost impossible to use

And that means that any power armour user must have something at least somewhat similar or the power armour would be 'almost impossible to use' for them as well.

Nope! This is bunk logic, because not all power armor is Astartes power armor. Shove a Sister in a suit of Cataphractii armor - she can do nothing unless both she and the armor is heavily augmented/modified like Kor Phaeron and his suit were during the Crusade. Stick her in Sister's armor, and she's good to go because while it's based on the same technology, it doesn't use the carapace as per official Sisters of Battle fluff.

From codex Witch Hunters:

"The power armor worn by the Battle Sisters of he Orders Militant is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of protection, yet must forego the more advanced life-support systems and strength enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines, as the Sisters of Battle are not implanted with the Black Carapace that allows the Astartes to interface fully with their own armor. Despite this, the Sisters of Battle are one of the few Imperial forces outside the Space Marines to be granted the right to wear such formidable armor, and they are trained to deadly effect to utilise the abilities to the full."

Generic Imperial Power Armor is described as being worn by all sorts of humans, and none of them use the carapace, but can't utilise the armor to its full potential because of it.

So unless GW is nerfing Sisters in the fluff by coming up with a "lite" version of the black carapace that looks and functions just like the real deal for them, they don't need or use a subdermal interface to control their armor, and there's no point mucking up the models with them.

Nothing in that quote you posted is contradicted in any way at all. Nor is the fluff 'nerfed.'

Black Carapace is better than what Sisters use because it lets them access advanced life support and strength enhancement.
That's... still true.

 zend wrote:


Nope! This is bunk logic, because not all power armor is Astartes power armor.

But it is similar. And certainly is would be far easier for super strong marines to use armour without interface, yet it described almost impossible!

From codex Witch Hunters:

"The power armor worn by the Battle Sisters of he Orders Militant is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of protection, yet must forego the more advanced life-support systems and strength enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines, as the Sisters of Battle are not implanted with the Black Carapace that allows the Astartes to interface fully with their own armor. Despite this, the Sisters of Battle are one of the few Imperial forces outside the Space Marines to be granted the right to wear such formidable armor, and they are trained to deadly effect to utilise the abilities to the full."

Right. So it never says there is no interface method at all. "Interface fully' implies that one can interface on lesser degree as well.

Generic Imperial Power Armor is described as being worn by all sorts of humans, and none of them use the carapace, but can't utilise the armor to its full potential because of it.

So unless GW is nerfing Sisters in the fluff by coming up with a "lite" version of the black carapace that looks and functions just like the real deal for them, they don't need or use a subdermal interface to control their armor, and there's no point mucking up the models with them.

But for all we know all those other people and sisters too always had these plugs. It makes sense that they do. The neural interface tech is common in the Imperium (any bionics would require it), far more common than the Power Armours themselves, so it would be nonsensical to not utilise it. That the armours work magically without any interface at all is just nonsensical headcanon.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Could SoB have finally become FSM? The changes certainly seem to lean that way.

Yeah, it’s not even close to FSM. But there is a big shift in that direction now that Sisters seem to require a series of surgeries to properly wear their armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
That the armours work magically without any interface at all is just nonsensical headcanon.

It would be if the only options were “magic” or “interface.” But this is merely a false dichotomy. The fictional tech in question does not demonstrably (that is, in setting) require any interface. And even if it did, we are a far cry from requiring surgically impanted interfaces or even demonstrating that would be better than the body glove theory.

I wonder if they will give them sandals. That would solve the boot/shoe issue, while looking "penitent".