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 Rubenite wrote:
You mean you haven't played with the Geminae and thought 'A whole unit of these would be absolutely amazing!'...

Maybe Geminae suck because there's only 2 of them?

Werent geminae an addon to Celestine?

 Galas wrote:
Werent geminae an addon to Celestine?

Yes, but they were created in a time when characters could be part of squads, and bodyguards were actual things, and various parts of command squads weren't separated out into their own units.

 Rubenite wrote:
You mean you haven't played with the Geminae and thought 'A whole unit of these would be absolutely amazing!'...

S3 Power Swords is not great but at least they get to re-roll wound rolls.

So maybe I missed the memo, but wasnt the new models and codex supposed to be up for preorder? Or was the preorder just for the bundle box?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Werent geminae an addon to Celestine?

Yes, but they were created in a time when characters could be part of squads, and bodyguards were actual things, and various parts of command squads weren't separated out into their own units.

I hadnt saw Celestine rules since the Index... I have see her now. Wow, just wow, talk about overnerf.
The only thing I can say is... "Look how they massacred my girl"

 l0k1 wrote:
So maybe I missed the memo, but wasnt the new models and codex supposed to be up for preorder? Or was the preorder just for the bundle box?

Just the bundle. The sisters release is next year.

A.T. wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
So maybe I missed the memo, but wasnt the new models and codex supposed to be up for preorder? Or was the preorder just for the bundle box?

Just the bundle. The sisters release is next year.

So if you didnt get the bundle you'll have to wait til next year to get the codex too? Wow, that's pretty lame.

 l0k1 wrote:
So if you didnt get the bundle you'll have to wait til next year to get the codex too? Wow, that's pretty lame.

Welcome to the Games Workshop HHHobby.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Rubenite wrote:
You mean you haven't played with the Geminae and thought 'A whole unit of these would be absolutely amazing!'...

S3 Power Swords is not great but at least they get to re-roll wound rolls.

17 points for 2 attacks though?

With Bloody Rose to make it 3 attacks and AP-4 (marginally useful but it comes up with Marines), and their stratagem for +1 to wound (and maybe the Passion/other synergies) you potentially have something - but without that degree of buffs that point above seems insurmountable.

 Galas wrote:
I hadnt saw Celestine rules since the Index... I have see her now. Wow, just wow, talk about overnerf.
The only thing I can say is... "Look how they massacred my girl"

Pretty much all of that was done in the beta, which is why her main use recently has been as part of the 4++ save castle.

Can you guess the one nerf they made to her in the final codex?

My most played army for nearly a year was Celestine + 4 squads of 5 SoS + Custodes.
I stoped using Celestine after they killed Imperum Soup. To see her in this state... I was really excited for being able to use her again... She wasnt even that good after the price hikes. But hey Daemon Princes are still out there.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Bdrone wrote:to
because i 100% my order as Argent shroud, i can't use Junith...

why cant you use Junith as someone from Argent Shroud?

because if your not willing to use detachments with different suborders, you lose the order bonuses in the detachment. since i planned for pure argent shroud well before this codex, junith can't be run without causing me that issue. thats on top of the fact i find them making junith at all a problem because just about every sister character with a model is or was order of our martyred lady, and then not making the model generic a real waste. such a model could have easily been like the catacomb command barge in necrons, and instead of our canonesses getting wings- an idea many people put forward, getting a mega pulpit to het forward on would have actually been vaguely cool and definately something people didn't expect... but thats not the case here.

if your run OoML mayeb she's worth a look, but personally its a pass, like some of the new models just flat out are to me until i see the concepts tested enough.

 l0k1 wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
So maybe I missed the memo, but wasnt the new models and codex supposed to be up for preorder? Or was the preorder just for the bundle box?

Just the bundle. The sisters release is next year.

So if you didnt get the bundle you'll have to wait til next year to get the codex too? Wow, that's pretty lame.

Not if you had been paying attention to the buildup. It's been very transparent.

 bullyboy wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
So maybe I missed the memo, but wasnt the new models and codex supposed to be up for preorder? Or was the preorder just for the bundle box?

Just the bundle. The sisters release is next year.

So if you didnt get the bundle you'll have to wait til next year to get the codex too? Wow, that's pretty lame.

Not if you had been paying attention to the buildup. It's been very transparent.

To be fair, people can be paying attention, know full well its going to happen, not even bother to try get one, and still feel its lame.

Because the fact that they didn't even try to produce a stock level that could last a full hour is pretty much proof that they didn't produce enough and didn't do the very obvious legwork that would have given them a better estimate.
Doubly so since this isn't a new phenomenon. When ghouls vs. rats sell out despite being mostly old models, there is a noticeable problem with production levels.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

Bdrone wrote:to
because i 100% my order as Argent shroud, i can't use Junith. im not sure of the Triumph of Saint Katherine, and i also would like to know why it wasn't called the reliquary of the saints.

why cant you use Junith as someone from Argent Shroud?

Because she has a fixed Order (martyred lady) and so would mess up the faction bonus.

Which isn’t to say you can’t paint her silver; you just have to run the whole army as silver martyred ladies if you do.

Depends on your group. If you're in an area heavy on tournaments and strict matched play then yes she would needin a million years be aallowed in a non OoOML detachment.

If you're in a relaxed group that favour narrative and using the rules as a guideline not intended to get in the way of their idea of fun. Then yes, you can absolutely use her to represent (insert fluff text) .
I'm fortunate enough to be in one of these groups, so I'll be happy to grab her and use her in my non OoOML Order.

Tyel wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Rubenite wrote:
You mean you haven't played with the Geminae and thought 'A whole unit of these would be absolutely amazing!'...

S3 Power Swords is not great but at least they get to re-roll wound rolls.

17 points for 2 attacks though?

With Bloody Rose to make it 3 attacks and AP-4 (marginally useful but it comes up with Marines), and their stratagem for +1 to wound (and maybe the Passion/other synergies) you potentially have something - but without that degree of buffs that point above seems insurmountable.

They'll likely suffer from the same issue as assault marines/vanguard vets.

The nice thing is they get a 5+ invul, but t3 and s3 hurts. Re-rolling wounds is a VERY nice bonus, which means they can put some hurt on things a lot tougher than they are, but getting that +1 str will make the difference between wounding t6 and t7 things on 6's and 5's.

But, if you can get them where you want them, give them a few buffs (throw some rhinos full of characters up where they need to be to give them the buffs), and use the right strats and order, they could be a devastating blender. AP-3 is nothing to sneeze at, and I could see them decimating squads of primaris, chewing through vehicles, and doing what assault units do best: lock something down to prevent it from shooting.

Do you play celestine without geminea?
Should I try to buy her model separately from ebay without them?

Aibishter wrote:
Do you play celestine without geminea?
Should I try to buy her model separately from ebay without them?

A lot of people do; she's a popular model. But you're not likely to get her new model on it's own.

Aibishter wrote:
Do you play celestine without geminea?
Should I try to buy her model separately from ebay without them?

If you can. The Geminae are so terrible that they're actively detrimental to your chances of winning the game. I wouldn't take them if they were free because they're less valuable than possibly denying your opponent an incredibly easy kill point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

drbored wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Rubenite wrote:
You mean you haven't played with the Geminae and thought 'A whole unit of these would be absolutely amazing!'...

S3 Power Swords is not great but at least they get to re-roll wound rolls.

17 points for 2 attacks though?

With Bloody Rose to make it 3 attacks and AP-4 (marginally useful but it comes up with Marines), and their stratagem for +1 to wound (and maybe the Passion/other synergies) you potentially have something - but without that degree of buffs that point above seems insurmountable.

They'll likely suffer from the same issue as assault marines/vanguard vets.

The nice thing is they get a 5+ invul, but t3 and s3 hurts. Re-rolling wounds is a VERY nice bonus, which means they can put some hurt on things a lot tougher than they are, but getting that +1 str will make the difference between wounding t6 and t7 things on 6's and 5's.

But, if you can get them where you want them, give them a few buffs (throw some rhinos full of characters up where they need to be to give them the buffs), and use the right strats and order, they could be a devastating blender. AP-3 is nothing to sneeze at, and I could see them decimating squads of primaris, chewing through vehicles, and doing what assault units do best: lock something down to prevent it from shooting.

Rerolling wounds is a mediocre bonus because it means you wound T4 and T5 barely more than half the time and wound T6+ on worse than a 5+. Even with AP -3 they hit about as hard as a pool noodle. Take 10 of them against marines, that's 170pts or right around the same price as a daemon prince. In a Vacuum, 10 Zephyrim is 170pts=21*.667*.58*.833= 3.5 dead intercessors. 10 Assault marines with 8 BP chainsword, 1 Powerfist, 1 eviscerator is 170pts=24*.667*.5*.333+3*.5*.833*.833*2+2*.5*.833*2= 3.5 dead intercessors. Zephyrim start off exactly as good as assault marines, point for point. That is a BAD place to be. Even with bloody rose and the strat, their output isn't particularly impressive. (Interestingly, with blood rose and the sacred rite they would almost certainly be doing more damage with chainswords than powerswords.)

More buffs beyond BR and the strat is impratical and inefficient, especially when you consider that anything with an invul will essentially invalidate them.

If you're doing the rhino thing, just run repentia or Arcos. They're both massively better in combat. If you're doing the overlapping buffs into the stratosphere, repentia are probably better.

They'll never get up to blender status simply due to the impracticality of getting them significant buffs. Take them if you like their models but don't expect a whole lot out of them. They're our version of Assault marines, a unit people take because they like them and at the end of every game have this conversation: 'I know I shouldn't take them but I think they're cool. Nah man I get ya."

Yeah, it kinda sucks the body guard models are such crap, I find it hard to believe GW can't make them work with her as opposed to be total poop.

That implies they tried to make them work.

I'm quite new to this, i'm joining the sister ranks just now since i managed to order a box, but why so much negativity about the gemini?

Going by the beta codex they are characters, so wouldn't they be quite hard to kill just cause of this?

I could totally see getting one for 25 points. It is a small harasser that when killed gives me a MD. Yes, she probably isn't going to hurt much, but 3 power swords attack and a krak grenade are not so bad on a 25 point flying char (too bad she can't get traits...).

 Mmmpi wrote:
That implies they tried to make them work.

As much of a low bar as I have for GW I like to believe they at least try and do their jobs correct.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
That implies they tried to make them work.

As much of a low bar as I have for GW I like to believe they at least try and do their jobs correct.

For all we know they're working exactly as intended. But none of the players see what they were built for as relevant to actually playing games, so no one uses them.

But from what reveals we've gotten, they functionally haven't changed since the witch hunter's codex.

I guess you could just buy the Celestine kit, and then use the Geminea as just more Seraphim. It would bump two 5-sister units up to two 6-sister units.

 Mmmpi wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
That implies they tried to make them work.

As much of a low bar as I have for GW I like to believe they at least try and do their jobs correct.

For all we know they're working exactly as intended. But none of the players see what they were built for as relevant to actually playing games, so no one uses them.

But from what reveals we've gotten, they functionally haven't changed since the witch hunter's codex.

I would be impressed if the Gemini hadn't changed since the Witch Hunter codex, given they didn't debut until the Celestine resculpt for The Gathering Storm...

Bdrone wrote:
the Zephryim worry me because of being Str 3 with power swords. they have all kinds of rerolls and such, but im still a bit worried about that units long term viability. theres some synergies they'll do well with though, so im interested in seeing how they are.
.

Well S3 with reroll is better than S4 without reroll vs T4 and better vs other T's. S5 would be better vs T4 but worse against most other T's. Doesn't sound that bad to me.

He meant from the Beta Codex. In the Index, they worked completely differently and back then they were an awesome part of how Celestine worked.

I mean they should work as being characters themselves that just can take wounds for Celestine and she can in turn bring them back. Last I knew though they were like a real small unit which makes them vulnerable to being picked off while celestine is still under character protection, is that how it still works for them now ? If so, that kinda sucks and I'd wonder why anyone with knowledge of the game would leave it as so.

I mean don't Ragnars wolves actually even work better than that ? If I'm not mistaken of course.