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No one is arguing that's it's not reinforcements! It's just irrelevant. You are confusing Tactical Reserves with Reinforcements. They are not the same thing.

Only units that are setup somewhere other than the battlefield are subject to the rule preventing them arriving on turn 1. Therefore it does not apply to summoning, because they have never been setup.

It's simple RAW, nothing to do with a ruling this tournament made.

Marin wrote:

 Mushkilla wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Marin wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The man with the summoning list is the true winner of the event. That is without a doubt the hardest list to play. Full respect for him.

He got help from the organizers, since they allowed summoning on turn 1.

There's never been a rule preventing summoning turn 1 (in 8e at least).

Tactical Reserves rule only applies to units that were setup somewhere other than the battlefield. Summoned units have never previously been setup before. This is all RAW.

Summoning is reinforcement and the rule is about reinforcement, so its included. There was no need for them to put it in the rules if it was allowed.

Wrong the rule doesn't affect reinforcements, it specifically affects "units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game".

The tactical reserve rules (introduced in FAQ 2) state:

"Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

Summoned units are not placed anywhere in order to arrive on the battle mid-game. They are just summoned. You don't even know what you are summoning until you summon it. The unit doesn't exist until you summon it. If the unit doesn't exist how can it be placed anywhere before hand to arrive as reinforcements?

You are playing with words, from the demonic ritual:
This unit is treated as reinforcements for your army

Whatever it exist or don`t exist, its not placed during deployment and is reinforcement according to the daemonic ritual.
Just the LVO guys buffed it so it can be useful and skip most of the tactical reserve rule, but to avoid argument they implicitly typed that forewarned and the SM stratagem work on summoning, so players don`t argue that summoning is not reinforcement.

I never said daemons were not reinforcements, they are.

But they are not affected by the tactical reserve rules for the similar reasons that they are not affected by the rules that 50% of your units/army must start on the table and are not destroyed if they come on turn 4-7.

If you re-read the rules for for tactical reserves it clearly states it affects "units that are not placed on the battlefield in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements". This specifically refers to units starting in: ambush, teleportarium, manta strike. Summoning doesn't work like that, units are not placed anywhere you merely allocate points that can be used to summon a variety of different units mid game based on your summoning roll. It says nothing about affecting reinforcements in general.

I don't see what you are basing your argument on. The English is clear.

bananathug wrote:
New bolter rule would do jack all for that SM list. It's all repulsors, predators and gman.

Don't agree - each repulsor picks up 6 extra bolter shots with the beta rules, and each pred would pick up 2 if it's running SBs. That's 16 extra shots out to 24", plus another 15 from the scouts. With Bobby rerolls, that's some significant dakka added.

 Mushkilla wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Mushkilla wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Marin wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The man with the summoning list is the true winner of the event. That is without a doubt the hardest list to play. Full respect for him.

He got help from the organizers, since they allowed summoning on turn 1.

There's never been a rule preventing summoning turn 1 (in 8e at least).

Tactical Reserves rule only applies to units that were setup somewhere other than the battlefield. Summoned units have never previously been setup before. This is all RAW.

Summoning is reinforcement and the rule is about reinforcement, so its included. There was no need for them to put it in the rules if it was allowed.

Wrong the rule doesn't affect reinforcements, it specifically affects "units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game".

The tactical reserve rules (introduced in FAQ 2) state:

"Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

Summoned units are not placed anywhere in order to arrive on the battle mid-game. They are just summoned. You don't even know what you are summoning until you summon it. The unit doesn't exist until you summon it. If the unit doesn't exist how can it be placed anywhere before hand to arrive as reinforcements?

You are playing with words, from the demonic ritual:
This unit is treated as reinforcements for your army

Whatever it exist or don`t exist, its not placed during deployment and is reinforcement according to the daemonic ritual.
Just the LVO guys buffed it so it can be useful and skip most of the tactical reserve rule, but to avoid argument they implicitly typed that forewarned and the SM stratagem work on summoning, so players don`t argue that summoning is not reinforcement.

I never said daemons were not reinforcements, they are.

But they are not affected by the tactical reserve rules for the similar reasons that they are not affected by the rules that 50% of your units/army must start on the table and are not destroyed if they come on turn 4-7.

If you re-read the rules for for tactical reserves it clearly states it affects "units that are not placed on the battlefield in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements". This specifically refers to units starting in: ambush, teleportarium, manta strike. Summoning doesn't work like that, units are not placed anywhere you merely allocate points that can be used to summon a variety of different units mid game based on your summoning roll. It says nothing about affecting reinforcements in general.

I don't see what you are basing your argument on. The English is clear.

You are cutting parts of the rule:

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements.

RESERVES
Reserves are forces which are not directly present at the start of an engagement but are available as reinforcements during battle.

So no daemon reinforcement are no excluded from the rule, but they ignore the points and half army requirement.
I`m sure GW will fix that soon, since LVO guys have influence in GW.

Make another thread to discuss the reinforcement rule.

This is to discuss LVO.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Make another thread to discuss the reinforcement rule.

This is to discuss LVO.

Yea you are right, sadly i`m disappointed that chaos and tao players go down.

What are the last tables?

Headlss wrote:
What are the last tables?

2 list IG + IK(both have Castellan)
1 Admech + Castellan
1 list Ynnari with 7 flyer.

The IG/IK list are playing eachother, on the other table are playing the Ynnari vs the Admech.
It`s expected that the Ynnari will win since the Admech list is melee focused.

3 imperial knight soup players and 1 Ynarri soup player in the top 4. Cool...

 flaming tadpole wrote:
3 imperial knight soup players and 1 Ynarri soup player in the top 4. Cool...

We may have hoped it wouldn't come to this, but can any of us really say we're in the slightest bit surprised?

I would like to see them at least try something to break up the absolute superiority of soup. Either CP locked to detachment that made it or only Warlords detachment can use strats.

You still get to minmax across tons of books.

Whomp whomp whomp.

Can't wait for the fix. This meta is becoming stale.

Sounds like 7-flyer Ynnari move-block list beat Admech/Castellan. Finals will be 7-flyers vs Castellan/AM.

Does anyone have the full list of what the Daemon/TS player used? Including his summoning?

 Eldarain wrote:
I would like to see them at least try something to break up the absolute superiority of soup. Either CP locked to detachment that made it or only Warlords detachment can use strats.

You still get to minmax across tons of books.

Too much money to be made by not fixing it. GW won't hurt their bottom line. That's what they care about. One and only. The problem has existed for several editions already. GW knows the effect. It's working as planned.

It'll be interesting to see the results of this event once everything has settled. It's the first major test of Games Workshop's changes in Chapter Approved. The meta has been stale for so long that it'll be interesting to see which Factions and what units will end up being the top dogs.

Darsath wrote:
It'll be interesting to see the results of this event once everything has settled. It's the first major test of Games Workshop's changes in Chapter Approved. The meta has been stale for so long that it'll be interesting to see which Factions and what units will end up being the top dogs.

What are top factions? Imperium and aeldar soups. Soup is always going to be top dog. Imperium has largest soup=it will be at top always and eldars have bloody good soup potential plus generally ignore tons of rules anyway=again top potential. There's not been many times eldars are NOT at top tables in some form of other.

tneva82 wrote:

Darsath wrote:
It'll be interesting to see the results of this event once everything has settled. It's the first major test of Games Workshop's changes in Chapter Approved. The meta has been stale for so long that it'll be interesting to see which Factions and what units will end up being the top dogs.

What are top factions? Imperium and aeldar soups. Soup is always going to be top dog. Imperium has largest soup=it will be at top always and eldars have bloody good soup potential plus generally ignore tons of rules anyway=again top potential. There's not been many times eldars are NOT at top tables in some form of other.

Well, we might see Chaos Soup right?

I'm more looking to see what the spoiler lists are that break into the top 8.

 dan2026 wrote:
Does anyone have the full list of what the Daemon/TS player used? Including his summoning?

Guess we won't find out what he was summoning since he didn't make it to the finals. Infernal enrapturess warlord is pretty awesome though!
Here's the list:
https://i.imgur.com/kHty85s.png

Doesn't sound like the problem is soup. The problem is the Castilian with support.

Sure there are no single faction lists. There is a difference between soup and support. Soup is a sloppy term, it doesn't tell me anything but the speaker is butt hurt.

2 list IG + IK(both have Castellan)
1 Admech + Castellan
1 list Ynnari with 7 flyer.

That tells me a lot. I might like to know more, like what the supporting units are (someone said admech was melee heavy)

You might read those lists and say soup is the problem. More choice is always going to be better than less choice. A player that can bring units from 2 dexs (or 3 or 3 of 12) will have a huge potential to do really cool stuff and find more combinations and likely better combos than the army that only comes out of 1 dex.

Thats fine. Thats cool I can build my dudes more ways. Gdub can sell from more lines. The problem comes in when with all that potential you see the same units in every list. Knights with infantry and arty support and a couple Smashfuckers of one flavor or another. Maybe swap out the Smashfuckers. Archon with living muse and 3 tripple dissy ravengers with jet bike farseers with doom plus some camping alitoc Scouts.

But in this tournament there was a huge variety of lists with very respectable showings. Until the top tables. 3 big knights and 1 flyer spam.

You can cry about soup if you want. It tells me the system still doesn't handle the knights well. And it might not handle fliers well either, sample is too small to be sure.

 slave.entity wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Does anyone have the full list of what the Daemon/TS player used? Including his summoning?

Guess we won't find out what he was summoning since he didn't make it to the finals. Infernal enrapturess warlord is pretty awesome though!
Here's the list:
https://i.imgur.com/kHty85s.png

Thanks.
Do we know why he had the Enrapturess as Warlord?
A strange choice. I'm not sure what advantage it gives.

Anyone get the list of the Space Marine army that was said to have come about 10th?

tneva82 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I would like to see them at least try something to break up the absolute superiority of soup. Either CP locked to detachment that made it or only Warlords detachment can use strats.

You still get to minmax across tons of books.

Too much money to be made by not fixing it. GW won't hurt their bottom line. That's what they care about. One and only. The problem has existed for several editions already. GW knows the effect. It's working as planned.

The Castellan and command point battery has been an issue for several editions? That's wrong.

What a joke of a comment. About a tournament THAT DOESN'T EVEN USE GW RULES.

This place has lost all sense.

Castellan + 80 guardsmen wins! Congrats to Brandon Grant!

 dan2026 wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Does anyone have the full list of what the Daemon/TS player used? Including his summoning?

Guess we won't find out what he was summoning since he didn't make it to the finals. Infernal enrapturess warlord is pretty awesome though!
Here's the list:
https://i.imgur.com/kHty85s.png

Thanks.
Do we know why he had the Enrapturess as Warlord?
A strange choice. I'm not sure what advantage it gives.

Enrapturess gives bonuses to summoning.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Does anyone have the full list of what the Daemon/TS player used? Including his summoning?

Guess we won't find out what he was summoning since he didn't make it to the finals. Infernal enrapturess warlord is pretty awesome though!
Here's the list:
https://i.imgur.com/kHty85s.png

Thanks.
Do we know why he had the Enrapturess as Warlord?
A strange choice. I'm not sure what advantage it gives.

Enrapturess gives bonuses to summoning.

It also occupies a privileged position on the field easily, and can carry the Gem of Smashcap Suicide, making it effectively immune to Old School.

It makes me sad grant beat Alex.. such a close game. I was hoping the Castellan wouldn’t be #1 and would get shut down

Was the Admech player in the top Hulksmash?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
It makes me sad grant beat Alex.. such a close game. I was hoping the Castellan wouldn’t be #1 and would get shut down

Better than space elves!

Brandon was my only loss but I can say that even not having met him before he was a great person and opponent at the table. Regardless of you think of his list always nice to see someone who shows great character as a player go the distance.