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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You know what could make for a truly excellent short film? Once the 'new' Terminator 3 (this one) is out?

The parties switching sides. A survivor, post Skynet's defeat, working it all out. That it's because Skynet tried to take out Sarah Connor that Skynet even existed in the first place.

So what if a plucky rebel or three decides to time travel back to just before the first film, and look up Sarah's geneology. The information gathered is then safely stored somewhere they know, from having been in the future, it'll survive.

His mates then pick it up, and decide to take out Sarah Connor themselves, likely when she's just a girl.

That done, Skynet never attempts the first mission. That means there's no future tech left lying around for Cyberdyne or anyone else to find.

Only, Skynet is just off licking it's wounds. And has also figured this out. But knowing it's role, and how it's previous attempts secured it's existence, sends a Terminator back to keep Sarah Connor alive....

Could be interesting, no?

While that is certainly an interesting concept (and could actually be the explanation of what happened to Sarah as a girl in Genysis), I could see far too many ways that the execution of that concept would fall flat and just outright confuse the already confused general populous.

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 flamingkillamajig wrote:


So while i only watched terminator 1-4 and never saw sarah connor chronicles (how is it as a series?).

Out of all the post T2 stuff, the TV series was actually quite good. I was done with how many more people and terminators they are sending back through time, but by the end of the first season I was won over. Its not got the budget of the films but it actually has brains, for a change. It follows on from T2, and being a TV show...its much easier to forgive.

Thomas, Lena and Summer were really good as John, Sarah and "Cameron", respectively. The big down side is that there is no season 3 and so its left dangling on a brilliant but unresolved cliffhanger at the end of season 2. If you love Terminator and can find the two seasons cheap then I recommend it.

SamusDrake wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


So while i only watched terminator 1-4 and never saw sarah connor chronicles (how is it as a series?).

Out of all the post T2 stuff, the TV series was actually quite good. I was done with how many more people and terminators they are sending back through time, but by the end of the first season I was won over. Its not got the budget of the films but it actually has brains, for a change. It follows on from T2, and being a TV show...its much easier to forgive.

Thomas, Lena and Summer were really good as John, Sarah and "Cameron", respectively. The big down side is that there is no season 3 and so its left dangling on a brilliant but unresolved cliffhanger at the end of season 2. If you love Terminator and can find the two seasons cheap then I recommend it.

I'll echo that. One thing the series does well is build up the concept of a "time war" so instead of just the two events of the films with Terminators trying to kill one of the Connors there's more of a sense of a battle being fought in Skynet's past, with things happening independent of the hunt for John Connor. The casting was really good and barring a bit of a weird slump for a few episodes in the middle of season 2 the pacing is good too.

The Sarah Connor Chronicles was hugely underrated. And yeah, totally let down by the cliffhanger ending.

Yup TSCC was a darn solid show.
A real shame they cancelled it.
That scene when Cromarty takes out the FBI team in the hotel complex with Cash playing in the background was really awesome.

 Ratius wrote:
Yup TSCC was a darn solid show.
A real shame they cancelled it.
That scene when Cromarty takes out the FBI team in the hotel complex with Cash playing in the background was really awesome.

Favourite bit of the first season!

 Compel wrote:
The Sarah Connor Chronicles was hugely underrated. And yeah, totally let down by the cliffhanger ending.

Hearing about the cliffhanger is the only reason I haven't invested in watching it, because knowing it lacks resolution makes me less enthusiastic.

I really want to rewatch it now that GoT is over. Rooting for Cersei is going to be wild

 Compel wrote:
I really want to rewatch it now that GoT is over. Rooting for Cersei is going to be wild

Lena Headey has had quite the bonkers filmography.

Just rewatched Terminator and T2 (first viewing for my teen boys, they enjoyed them). Man those are fun movies and the special effects actually hold up (save maybe the stop-mo Terminator at the end of T1).

I contemplating renting T3, Salvation and Genysis for my boys to watch, but...meh. Kinda want to leave the "good ones" at their last impression.

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Watched Terminator 3 at the weekend. And I stand by my much earlier comment.

If, and that’s is a big if, you can parse out the daft (stripper, inflatanorks to name two), underneath is a worthy sequel in terms of plot and spectacle.

The execution goes somewhat awry, no doubt there. But unlike Salvation and Genisys, it does act as a proper sequel to the first two, and it’s worst crime is not being as good as those high bars.

I mean, John Connor is largely the ancillary character. The Terminator isn’t really there to protect him, as it follows Catherine Brewster’s orders.

Frustratingly, it wouldn’t have taken much in the way of ‘ideal world’ reshoots or editing to elevate it to higher opinion. And I feel that the early, crap attempts at humour (stripper, inflatanorks) were such series low points that people understandably tuned out mentally. Those bum notes meant the viewer was instead waiting/dreading for the next crap joke, rather than actually following the plot.

Give it another watch, and try to parse the obviously crap bits out. I think you might see it in a more favourable light. Not an ‘OMG I WERE WRONGS, THIS ARE GRATE’ way. Just a ‘huh, actually, amongst the dross there’s quite a bit to enjoy here’ way.

Personally...tied down in the desert and threatened with eating a jar-full of ants, I would go for the first two films and the Chronicles TV series.

Chronicles doesn't commit any errors worse than T2 does and is actually the most intelligent entry when placed against all of the films. Many moons ago I took a course in AI( it was bloody difficult ) and I was surprised how much Chronicles had done its home work and that it had not underestimated its audience. One can watch the first two films and proceed to the tv show comfortably, despite the inevitable change in cast. The last three sequels have changed cast too often and doesn't really lead anywhere special, and Dark Fate will is set to confuse things even more. The Chronicles...we have the same cast for both seasons.

Dark Fate could continue Genisys by bringing back Micheal Biehn, showing Kyle and Sarah and "Pops" living to late age in the new time line. That would at least explain Linda and Arnold in the DF trailer, and we know John is gone so we don't expect him to show up either. We also know Skynet is still "alive" and ready to pester humanity once again. And lets face it, it would be awesome to have Micheal back once again - maybe dying a second time as timeline fixes itself back to its original course( Like in the Guy Pierce version of The Time Machine - somethings are just meant to be ). We could discover that once Skynet is overthrown in the future, humans have split into factions and using left over tech from the skynet war - machines and time equipment - to start a new war where time-displacement is the weapon with which it is fought, are sending Terminators through time to bump off their rivals, without interferring with the Skynet war outcome. That could be an opportunity to explain "pops" being sent to watch over Sarah as a child.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But unlike Salvation and Genisys, it does act as a proper sequel to the first two, and it’s worst crime is not being as good as those high bars.

I'd probably say T3's "worst crime" is opening up a "closed" franchised to "meh" sequels.
Seriously, after T2 it should have been over. In fact, there is a deleted alternate ending with adult John & Old Sarah Connor chilling at that playground Sarah kept having nightmares about.
No apocalypse happened.

If that scene had not been deleted, T3 could not have happened and by extension Salvation and Genysis wouldn't be possible either.

But yeah, I'll probably rent it (and all of them for my boys to experience) if I can find it at the library (free rental, yo)

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 Galef wrote:
In fact, there is a deleted alternate ending with adult John & Old Sarah Connor chilling at that playground Sarah kept having nightmares about. No apocalypse happened.

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Agreed. It was cute when she ties her grand daughter's laces together!

 Galef wrote:
II'd probably say T3's "worst crime" is opening up a "closed" franchised to "meh" sequels.

Tbf, you could say the same thing about T2 itself.

T1 is a self contained loop, it doesn't leave a natural opening for a sequel because the characters are presented as "locked" in a sort of cycle of cause and effect.

But T2 comes along and changes the rules - now it's apparently possible for somebody to come back from the future, and then prevent the future they themselves come from ever happening. Which was a great creative decision, and the results were great, but there was definitely an element of retconning involved in T2 to open up the premise again like that.

Dark Fate, if spoilers are to be believed, has a slightly new twist again on how that all works which I'm quite curious to see fail or succeed.

 Galef wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But unlike Salvation and Genisys, it does act as a proper sequel to the first two, and it’s worst crime is not being as good as those high bars.

I'd probably say T3's "worst crime" is opening up a "closed" franchised to "meh" sequels.
Seriously, after T2 it should have been over. In fact, there is a deleted alternate ending with adult John & Old Sarah Connor chilling at that playground Sarah kept having nightmares about.
No apocalypse happened.

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I remember that from the novelisation, for some reason. That and the opening scene from Skynet's POV as it desperately sends the T-800 and T-1000 back in time as John Connor's troops kick in the door.

Casualty wrote:

 Galef wrote:
II'd probably say T3's "worst crime" is opening up a "closed" franchised to "meh" sequels.

Tbf, you could say the same thing about T2 itself.

Not really. T1 was not as "self-contained" It still left this looming Doomsday out there. Nothing was "stopped" or altered. Judgement day was still gonna happen. It didn't end of a cliff-hanger by any means, but it was open to more. T2 did indeed "close the loop" because they actually STOPPED Judgement day from happening....until it happened in T3, just later than 1997.
T2 could have been the end of the series, no Apoc, no Skynet, no War. T3 changed that by saying it would still happen, just differently.

Changing the subject, however, who thinks it would be cool if the Terminator franchise was a prequel to the Matrix? One of the features in the Animatrix paints an eerily similar post-Apoc future war between man and machines

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The time travel in The Terminator was a closed loop; that's Casualty's point. Stopping Judgement Day wasn't the point; ensuring humanity's victory in the ensuing war was. Judgement Day would always happen, but if Kyle had failed, John Connor wouldn't be there to lead a successful revolt. Everything fits together, and all the actions in the present lead into the future.

the victory in Terminator 2 basically takes the Grandfather Paradox and throws it away. With no Judgement Day, John Connor doesn't send Kyle back to become his father, and so isn't born to be there to send his father back in time, etc, etc. Perhaps more acceptable emotionally, as everyone gets a happy ending (except Miles Dyson, I suppose), but less logically consistent. Skynet also appears from nowhere, as it's developed from components from a future that will no longer exist.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The time travel in The Terminator was a closed loop; that's Casualty's point. Stopping Judgement Day wasn't the point; ensuring humanity's victory in the ensuing war was. Judgement Day would always happen, but if Kyle had failed, John Connor wouldn't be there to lead a successful revolt. Everything fits together, and all the actions in the present lead into the future.

the victory in Terminator 2 basically takes the Grandfather Paradox and throws it away. With no Judgement Day, John Connor doesn't send Kyle back to become his father, and so isn't born to be there to send his father back in time, etc, etc. Perhaps more acceptable emotionally, as everyone gets a happy ending (except Miles Dyson, I suppose), but less logically consistent. Skynet also appears from nowhere, as it's developed from components from a future that will no longer exist.

Right, exactly.

Those two different - and opposing - time travel concepts are why the "No Fate" thing is treated as such a big deal. Despite having personally experienced a bootstrap loop with Kyle Reese, Sarah decides to try to change the future in a way that - for all she knows - may not even be theoretically possible.

It's kind of Kobayashi Maru solution - rather than take steps to win the fight, she'll ensure the fight can't even happen. And she succeeds, but I think it's worth remembering, because it's an interesting part of the character, that she's charging off into uncharted territory by doing so, it's a huge all-in gamble and she has more reason to believe it will be literally impossible than reason to believe it isn't, even if they are capable of pulling it off tactically

Sarah doesn't know the Terminator movie time travel rules at that point either, she has no idea if they can even allow for what she sets out to do before she does it.

I remember enhjoying T3 immensely when it came out - especially since it was up against another crappy Matrix sequal and had a great twist ending.

Salvation was not bad at all but the most recent film was .....bad.especially since they telegraphed the "twist" in the trailers....

I agree with the Mad Doc on T3; I’ve always found it interesting that everyone complains that it’s too light-hearted, forgetting that it ends with the “heroes” cowering in a bunker with hundreds of ICBMs crossing in the skies...

I always thought that salvation is a mess because it tries to do too many things; I could really dig a film about John Connor surviving Judgement Day, but then not being the leader, because people still don’t believe him. I think the idea of a hybrid terminator that chooses to rebel against Skynet (like the learning to value life theme from T2) is also really interesting. Trying to do all that in one film is just a mess.

Genysis was a real disappointment; there is very little chemistry in the cast and the ending missed a great opportunity to go in an interesting direction:


The one glimmer of hope I have for the new film is the return of Linda Hamilton; I understand she was offered a part in T3, but passed, because they didn’t have anything interesting to do with the character. Which would suggest they’ve at least got something interesting in the script for her (or she’s hard-up for cash )

 Mr Morden wrote:

Salvation was not bad at all but the most recent film was .....bad.especially since they telegraphed the "twist" in the trailers....

I misinterpreted that, actually. I thought it was imitation, not possession.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Casualty wrote:
Right, exactly.

Those two different - and opposing - time travel concepts are why the "No Fate" thing is treated as such a big deal. Despite having personally experienced a bootstrap loop with Kyle Reese, Sarah decides to try to change the future in a way that - for all she knows - may not even be theoretically possible.

It's kind of Kobayashi Maru solution - rather than take steps to win the fight, she'll ensure the fight can't even happen. And she succeeds, but I think it's worth remembering, because it's an interesting part of the character, that she's charging off into uncharted territory by doing so, it's a huge all-in gamble and she has more reason to believe it will be literally impossible than reason to believe it isn't, even if they are capable of pulling it off tactically

Sarah doesn't know the Terminator movie time travel rules at that point either, she has no idea if they can even allow for what she sets out to do before she does it.

And then Salvation goes and does something wonky with it. You can change a fixed loop, but somehow some things are just "meant to be" and will still keep on popping up somewhere else. It's not the same events, because Skynet is different and the time is different; somehow the universe has it in for humanity and will make sure that we get flattened by an AI no matterwhat. It's takingit personally, like Death in the Final Destination films.

I'm still holding out a shred of hope that we'll get a conclusion to Genesys' story arc in at least comic book form.

Again, like T3, it was a flawed attempt. But underneath it is a surprisingly solid story, and at least an attempt at something new. And hand on heart, it has the absolute standout Future War scenes.

Salvation, to me, is the biggest waste of time. It ask questions nobody wanted answers to, and somehow manages to make those answers incredibly boring. It's got, hands down, the very worst Future War scenes. It doesn't follow up on anything from T1-3. It's not a sequel, it just sort of is. The redheaded stepchild of the series.

And as much as Genisys revealed too much in its trailer? Salvation started it. Who is this mysterious character? HE'S A TERMINATOR EVERYBODY! A PROTOTYPE! Oh. Erm....k.

I have really awful memories of T3 but will rewatch it tonight to confirm/deny.

I recently rewatched AvP2 which at the time was one of the worst films ever made imo. But on a rewatch it kinda did what it said on the tin and didnt for a second pretend to try otherwise. Which made it more enjoyable.

 Galef wrote:

Casualty wrote:

 Galef wrote:
II'd probably say T3's "worst crime" is opening up a "closed" franchised to "meh" sequels.

Tbf, you could say the same thing about T2 itself.

Not really. T1 was not as "self-contained" It still left this looming Doomsday out there. Nothing was "stopped" or altered. Judgement day was still gonna happen. It didn't end of a cliff-hanger by any means, but it was open to more. T2 did indeed "close the loop" because they actually STOPPED Judgement day from happening....until it happened in T3, just later than 1997.
T2 could have been the end of the series, no Apoc, no Skynet, no War. T3 changed that by saying it would still happen, just differently.

Changing the subject, however, who thinks it would be cool if the Terminator franchise was a prequel to the Matrix? One of the features in the Animatrix paints an eerily similar post-Apoc future war between man and machines

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You completely misunderstood his meaning. T1 is a closed loop in that the ending position of all the characters and pieces is the starting position. Cause and effect are complete. T2 screws all that up for a schmaltzy feel-good ending. It retcons the rules that make the first movie work, weakens the dramatic effect and character arcs, and then introduces an open-ended, causality-free space-timeline for the benefit of a happy ending that explores literally the most boring possibility out of the myriad of potential paths the timeline could take from there. I mean, I love T2, but that film really broke the franchise.

And making the Terminator into a prequel for the Matrix is a terrible, terrible idea. Just terrible. Hackers is clearly the prequel to the Matrix.

I remember having a semi-serious conversation about TGerminator 2 and Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey, and the similarities in the plot between the two with my secondary school English teacher. This was the same teacher who covered The Untouchables as a literary text alongside Shakespeare (Romeo and Juliet, IIRC) and the poetry of Philip Larkin and had us all do a short film criticism presentation. IIRC I did the end scene of Bladerunner, can't remember what other people did.

The hate for Salvation makes me sad. It was a great start to a new potentially interesting timeframe(pre-Future War!) that we got kinda/sorta hinted at prior to it with how Kyle Reese grew up before Connor ever found him.

Voss wrote:


Just... stop.
Seriously.
Hollywood.
Stop.

They will stop as soon as they can´t earn any money from it. So just don´t go to the cinema and watch it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The hate for Salvation makes me sad. It was a great start to a new potentially interesting timeframe(pre-Future War!) that we got kinda/sorta hinted at prior to it with how Kyle Reese grew up before Connor ever found him.

I think most of Terminator after T2 is well defined by the words, "they wasted a perfectly good plot." Most of the film premises aren't exactly terrible. It's most the execution that kills them.

Salvation was made by people who didn't understand the setting. A snake terminator? Giant bipedal robots and motorcycle HKs? It makes me miss the supplementary material about the Last Army, how none of the machines have "eyes", Skynet only using bipedal designs because it had some unfleshed endoskeletons left in its arsenal during the desparate last battle...