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2019/03/16 22:22:29
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
One thing to realize about electric car ranges is that while the listed range will apply when it is new, the batteries degrade over time. Quite rapidly actually. So your actual range will shrink quite a bit as the car gets older unless you periodically buy new batteries.
Plus you will only be able to make long distance drives along routes that have charging stations, and recharging takes 1-2 hours depending on the battery and charging station. This will severely limit your long distance mobility if you ever want to make road trips.
Frankly, electric cars are still premature. I would get a Prius instead. Still fuels like a regular car and has great range. Electric cars are only good for commuting to destinations well within its maximum range(to account for battery degradation), but you'll still need a regular vehicle for long distance travel or to go anywhere that doesn't have charging stations.
My dad needed a new car last year, and he was deciding between a Prius and some electric car. The electric car only had a total 70 mile range, which was the exact distance of his daily work commute. And the batteries were expected to degrade up to 15% within the first 2 years. So he would have to use a charging station at work(which was a 4 mile walk). So he ended up with the Prius.
Even with battery distance becoming better, they're still way too primitive at this stage and there is too little infrastructure. Go with a hybrid. Electric cars probably have about a decade left.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/16 22:24:27
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Imagine all the effort needed to transport and contain H2. It's a molecule so small it can percolate through many other materials that we'd ordinarily consider gas-proof, especially when held under pressure.
I think that electric cars, in their current form, will become a parenthesis in car history and nothing more.
They are not a solution.
They're at best a bandaid, and at worst they are making the situation worse in the long run, by taking focus, time and resources away from where it would be of most use.
5500 pts 6500 pts 7000 pts 9000 pts 13.000 pts
2019/03/17 01:41:25
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Grey Templar wrote: One thing to realize about electric car ranges is that while the listed range will apply when it is new, the batteries degrade over time. Quite rapidly actually. So your actual range will shrink quite a bit as the car gets older unless you periodically buy new batteries.
Plus you will only be able to make long distance drives along routes that have charging stations, and recharging takes 1-2 hours depending on the battery and charging station. This will severely limit your long distance mobility if you ever want to make road trips.
Frankly, electric cars are still premature. I would get a Prius instead. Still fuels like a regular car and has great range. Electric cars are only good for commuting to destinations well within its maximum range(to account for battery degradation), but you'll still need a regular vehicle for long distance travel or to go anywhere that doesn't have charging stations.
My dad needed a new car last year, and he was deciding between a Prius and some electric car. The electric car only had a total 70 mile range, which was the exact distance of his daily work commute. And the batteries were expected to degrade up to 15% within the first 2 years. So he would have to use a charging station at work(which was a 4 mile walk). So he ended up with the Prius.
Even with battery distance becoming better, they're still way too primitive at this stage and there is too little infrastructure. Go with a hybrid. Electric cars probably have about a decade left.
Yeah, I broadly agree with this. There are circumstances where they work, and they'll likely work better in small areas that can force the necessary infrastructure to happen and have housing near workplaces, but in the wider world (including but not limited to entire continents), its an impractical technology.
I could see it functioning in Japan (assuming a will to do it, as all oil/gas has to be imported anyway, and geography limits roads) or Denmark or the Low Countries, but in most urban areas where it would be possible, just going for a metro ride seems a better solution, and outside of urban zones, any amount of significant travel or rough terrain make them useless or at best impractical.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2019/03/17 01:43:07
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Imagine all the effort needed to transport and contain H2. It's a molecule so small it can percolate through many other materials that we'd ordinarily consider gas-proof, especially when held under pressure.
It wouldn't be simple. Not one bit.
What about the existing hydrogen models? The Honda one for example? Do they fall short?
2019/03/17 04:36:18
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
There are a number of other factors to consider too when it comes to pure electric vehicles - all of them are issues, and why the market will have to change if you really want to use them. Even how you sell them will have to change.
1) As mentioned above, battery performance degrades over time, far more than a slightly worn out normal motor. This kills re-sale value, or could potentially be catastrophically expensive (in the same realm as buying a full new motor for a used car in 10-15 years)
2) Batteries are more or less unable to be refurbished at this time, so you're producing a heap of battery waste...that has to go somewhere and that's a problem (see India's mega-gigantic computer trash dumps, etc.)
3) With battery tech hopefully increasing you risk an overwhelming loss of value if there is a breakthrough. If we find a solution and suddenly next year's electric car goes 400 miles instead of your current model which goes 170....who the hell is going to buy your car? You could lose all of its value overnight (the same kind of thing you see when major cell phone changes occur, etc.)
Some companies are considering this stuff, others are just shooting from the hip. Realistically you need to be renting electric cars, or even just renting their batteries, etc. Companies need to consider how to refurb worn out cars or establish how good a used electric vehicle is. Are the cars and future cars being created in a modular system so new (upgraded tech) batteries can be swapped in to give a car a further life-span, etc. Will new batteries be available for a car in 15-20 years when an owner wants to refurb it, etc. Will aftermarket companies be able to create batteries for older electric vehicles, etc.
And of course, worst case scenario is that some other tech comes along and destroys the electric vehicle market overnight...but that's always a risk.
If we look at something like Formula E (electric racing series) we can see the issues from a performance standpoint. The first four or five years the drivers drove (slowly) half the race and then swapped into a backup car. This year with the new second generation car they're able to do a whopping 45 minute race in a single car. The cars aren't terribly performance heavy (around 130 mph max speed if I recall) and at least in previous years the cars were all charged using massive diesel generators...so...the envrionmental nods are a bit silly. There's a ton of great marketing out there though...so the cars will continue to do fine. But as a long term investment in a vehicle, or as a long term solution to normal fuel? Not there...at all.
2019/03/17 06:20:02
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Imagine all the effort needed to transport and contain H2. It's a molecule so small it can percolate through many other materials that we'd ordinarily consider gas-proof, especially when held under pressure.
It wouldn't be simple. Not one bit.
What about the existing hydrogen models? The Honda one for example? Do they fall short?
Hydrogen is even worse then an electric car in terms of refueling. You have to find a place that sells pressurized hydrogen. You'd be even more limited in where you can drive. Plus your fuel is best described as an explosive.
Electric cars are best described as premature technology. Hydrogen cars are dead end technology.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MinscS2 wrote: I think that electric cars, in their current form, will become a parenthesis in car history and nothing more.
They are not a solution.
They're at best a bandaid, and at worst they are making the situation worse in the long run, by taking focus, time and resources away from where it would be of most use.
Do you have any reasoning behind what you're saying?
Do you believe hydrogen fuel is a better solution, perhaps running a fuel cell to produce electricity to run an electric motor?
Imagine all the effort needed to transport and contain H2. It's a molecule so small it can percolate through many other materials that we'd ordinarily consider gas-proof, especially when held under pressure.
It wouldn't be simple. Not one bit.
What about the existing hydrogen models? The Honda one for example? Do they fall short?
Hydrogen has the advantages of being easy to produce, and burning "clean" either as an internal combustion fuel, or in a "fuel cell" to produce electricity directly. The exhaust in either case is water. The disadvantage is the difficulty of storing and transporting it, compared to petrol or electricity.
There isn't any existing infrastructure for refuelling hydrogen cars.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/17 08:07:51
There is a lot of misinformation on this thread! Much of it coming from old or crappy EVS. Wow, do some research guys!
So I just bought a Model 3 performance so I will tell you my thoughts.
The model 3 in all levels of trim from the cheapest to the most expensive will outperform similar priced cars. the 35K base model will perform much better than any other $35k sedan. My P3 will spank a BMW M3 straight or on a course....no problem, for much less $$ upfront and much much less money in the long run. Maintenance on the Teslas is minimal, my brother (who does some engineering work for Tesla) has had one for 4 years.....tires, windshield wiper fluid, windshield wipers.....thats it. Every car I have had in the past I have had to give up because eventually maintenance just becomes overbearing, and I can do most of it myself...but even then, if its not a cost issue its the time and hassle. Teslas are simple its, a battery with motors, thousands of less moving parts and components. My brother basically says as long as the body holds up these could be forever cars, the motors are rated for 1 million miles and the batteries are guaranteed for 8 years and if cared for properly (i.e dont abuse them by siting on them fully charged or drain them too low without charging) show minimal degradation and should last a very long time, like less than 1% a year. Do you know how much horsepower your average car loses a year? Its quite a bit. Earlier Teslas including the early model 3s had fit and finish issues, this has disappeared for the most part.
So now we have a car that is a priced on par with its competition, requires basically 0 maintenance and costs much less to fuel....possibly free to fuel if you set your house up for renewable energy.
Range. Not really an issue for daily driving. I however drive a lot for business. Typically 400 miles a week, 200 miles a day, twice a week. My Tesla can go 310 on a full charge, ideally. I have yet to get that amount, winter is tough on the battery, heating the car eats electricity. I however installed a nema 14-50 charger at work and at home, this charges me about 30 miles an hour. I did this work myself, its easy. For long hauls there are superchargers everywhere. Battery charging is different, I can get i can get 60% charge in about 20 min...the other 40% takes much longer, thats just how it works. Telsa does have new chargers that charge up to 1000 miles an hour and the tech will only get better.
It changes you though, I'm a car guy. I loved my old MR2 with a stick, and my wife has a chrysler 300 with the big hemi in it...i loved driving that. Now whenever I get in those cars they feel like tanks, slow, heavy, clumsy . My model 3 is just so quick and responsive, its not a light car, its actually quite heavy, but it feels very light. I cant wait for the summer to spank my friends at autocross. I will never go back to ICE cars.
Oh and since i own my own business, i still get to write of 58 cents a mile, but Im not buying gas or doing maintenance on the car, so in a way the car pays for itself. I think if anyone is looking at a new car you really should see if an EV will work for you, I'd go with Tesla just because of the extensive network of superchargers, but also they are so far ahead of the competition, its going to take everyone else a long time to catch up.
Hybrids take all the problems of both and combine it together. Internal combustion engines are just too complex, have too many moving parts and the stress from running them wears them down, after 10 years the radiator breaks, then the water pump, then the fuel injection.....on and on and on $$$$$$$.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/03/17 14:41:37
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
2019/03/17 09:50:12
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
quote=Andrew1975 772819 10382899 3780a3d5526daea62fb9a94c2f43af38.jpg]There is a lot of misinformation on this thread! Much of it coming from old or crappy EVS. Wow, do some research guy!
So I just bought a Model 3 performance so I will tell you my thoughts.
The model 3 in all levels of trim from the cheapest to the most expensive will outperform similar priced cars. the 35K base model will perform much better than any other $35k sedan. My P3 will spank a BMW M3 straight or on a course....no problem, for much less $$ upfront and much much less money in the long run. Maintenance on the Teslas is minimal, my brother (who does some engineering work for Tesla) has had one for 4 years.....tires, windshield wiper fluid, windshield wipers.....thats it. Every car I have had in the past I have had to give up because eventually maintenance just becomes overbearing, and I can do most of it myself...but even then, if its not a cost issue its the time and hassle. Teslas are simple its, a battery with motors, thousands of less moving parts and components. My brother basically says as long as the body holds up these could be forever cars, the motors are rated for 1 million miles and the batteries are guaranteed for 8 years and if cared for properly (i.e dont abuse them by siting on them fully charged or drain them too low without charging) show minimal degradation and should last a very long time, like less than 1% a year. Do you know how much horsepower your average car loses a year? Its quite a bit. Earlier Teslas including the early model 3s had fit and finish issues, this has disappeared for the most part.
So now we have a car that is a priced on par with its competition, requires basically 0 maintenance and costs much less to fuel....possibly free to fuel if you set your house up for renewable energy.
Range. Not really an issue for daily driving. I however drive a lot for business. Typically 400 miles a week, 200 miles a day, twice a week. My Tesla can go 310 on a full charge, ideally. I have yet to get that amount, winter is tough on the battery, heating the car eats electricity. I however installed a nema 14-50 charger at work and at home, this charges me about 30 miles an hour. I did this work myself, its easy. For long hauls there are superchargers everywhere. Battery charging is different, I can get i can get 60% charge in about 20 min...the other 40% takes much longer, thats just how it works. Telsa does have new chargers that charge up to 1000 miles an hour and the tech will only get better.
It changes you though, I'm a car guy. I loved my old MR2 with a stick, and my wife has a chrysler 300 with the big hemi in it...i loved driving that. Now whenever I get in those cars they feel like tanks, slow, heavy, clumsy . My model 3 is just so quick and responsive, its not a light car, its actually quite heavy, but it feels very light. I cant wait for the summer to spank my friends at autocross. I will never go back to ICE cars.
Oh and since i own my own business, i still get to write of 58 cents a mile, but Im not buying gas or doing maintenance on the car, so in a way the car pays for itself. I think if anyone is looking at a new car you really should see if an EV will work for you, I'd go with Tesla just because of the extensive network of superchargers, but also they are so far ahead of the competition, its going to take everyone else a long time to catch up.
Hybrids take all the problems of both and combine it together. Internal combustion engines are just too complex, have too many moving parts and the stress from running them wears them down, after 10 years the radiator breaks, then the water pump, then the fuel injection.....on and on and on $$$$$$$.
So my 1999 sedan can tow 5000 lbs, but you reckon your 3 outperforms it? The 3 has no factory towing capacity at all........... I'm just saying it depends on what you want, not everyone is looking for the same thing.
Our reality does not have a wacky magical parallel twin universe made of 'emotions' that reflects back and amplifies the worst impulses of people in the 'real' world.
What is social media?
2019/03/17 11:14:19
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Oh electric cars can be built that can tow, the tesla model x I think can tow 2 or so tons. Tesla 3 has no tow capacity as it was never given when manufactured, there are aftermarket tow kits even for the 3 but tesla doesn't say you can tow with it. I was just pointing out that saying the tesla 3 outperforms any other sedan of simular price is incorrect, although I think he only was thinking of speed. If the OP is used to SUV's he might not realise some of the things you can't do with the 3, like tow a decent boat lol. Lot of people don't need that ability, but some do.
Our reality does not have a wacky magical parallel twin universe made of 'emotions' that reflects back and amplifies the worst impulses of people in the 'real' world.
For me it's impractical as I work at a wide variety of locations often inn muddy fields at varying distances from my home and office so I can't as yet rely on a charger.
"But me no buts! Our comrades get hurt. Our friends die. Falkenburg is a knight who swore an oath to serve the church and to defend the weak. He'd be the first to tell you to stop puling and start planning. Because what we are doing-at risk to ourselves-is what we have sworn to do. The West relies on us. It is a risk we take with pride. It is an oath we honour. Even when some soft southern burgher mutters about us, we know the reason he sleeps soft and comfortable, why his wife is able to complain about the price of cabbages as her most serious problem and why his children dare to throw dung and yell "Knot" when we pass. It's because we are what we are. For all our faults we stand for law and light.
Von Gherens This Rough Magic Lackey, Flint & Freer
Mekagorkalicious -Monkeytroll
2017 Model Count-71
2019/03/17 14:18:42
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
dodgemetal wrote: Oh electric cars can be built that can tow, the tesla model x I think can tow 2 or so tons. Tesla 3 has no tow capacity as it was never given when manufactured, there are aftermarket tow kits even for the 3 but tesla doesn't say you can tow with it. I was just pointing out that saying the tesla 3 outperforms any other sedan of simular price is incorrect, although I think he only was thinking of speed. If the OP is used to SUV's he might not realise some of the things you can't do with the 3, like tow a decent boat lol. Lot of people don't need that ability, but some do.
Look when people look for performance out of a sedan.....they are not looking for towing. Thats what trucks and SUVs are for. When you look at "Performance" Sedans, I highly doubt any of them have towing capability. You are being Silly. Id also be curious to see which "Sedan" from 1999 can tow 5000 pounds.
Our reality does not have a wacky magical parallel twin universe made of 'emotions' that reflects back and amplifies the worst impulses of people in the 'real' world.
What is social media?
2019/03/17 14:49:06
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Ford falcon au xr8. You don’t have them in America but they where popular here. 2300kg towing
Other popular one is Holden commodore, had 2100kg towing since 1993.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/17 15:01:22
Our reality does not have a wacky magical parallel twin universe made of 'emotions' that reflects back and amplifies the worst impulses of people in the 'real' world.
What is social media?
2019/03/17 15:14:09
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
dodgemetal wrote: Ford falcon au xr8. You don’t have them in America but they where popular here. 2300kg towing
Other popular one is Holden commodore, had 2100kg towing since 1993.
OK, that makes sense.....everything is weird in Australia
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
2019/03/17 15:20:37
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Personally, I think electric cars are an evolutionary dead end; I don't think that shifting the fuel burden onto the national grid, which still consists of fossil fuel burning power plants in the main, is a good idea and certainly not if/when millions of people start needing to charge cars all the time - the power demands will be huge, at least here in the UK anyway, unless we want to see vast swathes of land and sea covered in wind farms.
Another factor that is overlooked is the environmental cost of making the batteries in the first place. There are a lot of rare and precious metals that go into making them and they often come from huge strip mines, in 3rd world countries and to the misery of the local population. Frankly, you would have less of an environmental footprint if you were to buy and run a decent second hand car rather than buy a new electric car. Quite honestly, there has been so much built in obsolescence in car manufacturing in recent years. We should be encouraged to use and maintain older cars rather than constantly buying new cars every few years. I think you could drive around in older cars for a lifetime and not approach the ecological damage that making a single electric car causes - not to mention the ongoing damage that will be caused when battery demand spikes upwards.
I would love to see hydrogen fuel cell cars as I think that is a much more viable technological route but it needs more work done - we need the infrastructure in place and the extraction costs of hydrogen need to get lower. James May made a wonderful film in a Top Gear episode where he went to California and test drove a Honda hydrogen car. Honda have been selling (well, leasing) hydrogen vehicles in California for a few years now so it's not like it can't be done - the tech is there but sadly, battery tech seems to have stolen the limelight despite being objectively 'worse' as a solution. It's a bit like the old VHS/Betamax thing all over again.
filbert wrote: Personally, I think electric cars are an evolutionary dead end; I don't think that shifting the fuel burden onto the national grid, which still consists of fossil fuel burning power plants in the main, is a good idea and certainly not if/when millions of people start needing to charge cars all the time - the power demands will be huge, at least here in the UK anyway, unless we want to see vast swathes of land and sea covered in wind farms.
Another factor that is overlooked is the environmental cost of making the batteries in the first place. There are a lot of rare and precious metals that go into making them and they often come from huge strip mines, in 3rd world countries and to the misery of the local population. Frankly, you would have less of an environmental footprint if you were to buy and run a decent second hand car rather than buy a new electric car. Quite honestly, there has been so much built in obsolescence in car manufacturing in recent years. We should be encouraged to use and maintain older cars rather than constantly buying new cars every few years. I think you could drive around in older cars for a lifetime and not approach the ecological damage that making a single electric car causes - not to mention the ongoing damage that will be caused when battery demand spikes upwards.
I would love to see hydrogen fuel cell cars as I think that is a much more viable technological route but it needs more work done - we need the infrastructure in place and the extraction costs of hydrogen need to get lower. James May made a wonderful film in a Top Gear episode where he went to California and test drove a Honda hydrogen car. Honda have been selling (well, leasing) hydrogen vehicles in California for a few years now so it's not like it can't be done - the tech is there but sadly, battery tech seems to have stolen the limelight despite being objectively 'worse' as a solution. It's a bit like the old VHS/Betamax thing all over again.
I'm going to disagree on a few points here. Running electric cars even with the current grid creates less pollution than running cars on gas.....and there is a big push to make our electric grids cleaner and renewable now. The environmental and societal concerns of the batteries isnt really justified when you look at the current environmental and societal concerns that come from gasoline dependence. Lets look at where most oil comes from, how the people live there and how many wars blood and dollars have been used to support it. How many dictators and terrorists get propped up on the petrol dollar? Yeah battery production could be more ethical, but I find it far more ethical than the current state of the Oil business.
That being said we should not just all throw our perfectly good ICE cars away, thats like throwing away your plastic straws to replace them with paper, use your plastic straws, but when it comes time to replace them make the right choice. As far as hydrogen VS electricity......we already have a national electricity grid for transporting and creating electricity in (most) every house in the US. We for sure can make it cleaner, but it already exists. Hydrogen is not power, electricity is power, you actually need electricity to create hydrogen...electricity one less step along the line and as i said already has a great deal of infrastructure. I dont ever want to go back to having to go to filling stations, its so awesome to just get home and plug in the car and give the finger to every gas station on the way home. When I do have to charge away from home...which is rare it does take a few minutes longer for now.....but when I think of all the time I used to spend filling up three times a week at the gas station, its a no brainer.
I just don't see hydrogen happening to many hurdles for not enough gain. With heavy research hydrogen may be able to compete, but then you have the whole infrastructure problem. Right now people are investing in making batteries more efficient and cheaper and that is progressing by leaps and bounds.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/17 16:17:58
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
2019/03/17 16:41:32
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
filbert wrote: Personally, I think electric cars are an evolutionary dead end; I don't think that shifting the fuel burden onto the national grid, which still consists of fossil fuel burning power plants in the main, is a good idea and certainly not if/when millions of people start needing to charge cars all the time - the power demands will be huge, at least here in the UK anyway, unless we want to see vast swathes of land and sea covered in wind farms.
Another factor that is overlooked is the environmental cost of making the batteries in the first place. There are a lot of rare and precious metals that go into making them and they often come from huge strip mines, in 3rd world countries and to the misery of the local population. Frankly, you would have less of an environmental footprint if you were to buy and run a decent second hand car rather than buy a new electric car. Quite honestly, there has been so much built in obsolescence in car manufacturing in recent years. We should be encouraged to use and maintain older cars rather than constantly buying new cars every few years. I think you could drive around in older cars for a lifetime and not approach the ecological damage that making a single electric car causes - not to mention the ongoing damage that will be caused when battery demand spikes upwards.
I would love to see hydrogen fuel cell cars as I think that is a much more viable technological route but it needs more work done - we need the infrastructure in place and the extraction costs of hydrogen need to get lower. James May made a wonderful film in a Top Gear episode where he went to California and test drove a Honda hydrogen car. Honda have been selling (well, leasing) hydrogen vehicles in California for a few years now so it's not like it can't be done - the tech is there but sadly, battery tech seems to have stolen the limelight despite being objectively 'worse' as a solution. It's a bit like the old VHS/Betamax thing all over again.
I'm going to disagree on a few points here. Running electric cars even with the current grid creates less pollution than running cars on gas.....and there is a big push to make our electric grids cleaner and renewable now. The environmental and societal concerns of the batteries isnt really justified when you look at the current environmental and societal concerns that come from gasoline dependence. Lets look at where most oil comes from, how the people live there and how many wars blood and dollars have been used to support it. How many dictators and terrorists get propped up on the petrol dollar? Yeah battery production could be more ethical, but I find it far more ethical than the current state of the Oil business.
That being said we should not just all throw our perfectly good ICE cars away, thats like throwing away your plastic straws to replace them with paper, use your plastic straws, but when it comes time to replace them make the right choice. As far as hydrogen VS electricity......we already have a national electricity grid for transporting and creating electricity in (most) every house in the US. We for sure can make it cleaner, but it already exists. Hydrogen is not power, electricity is power, you actually need electricity to create hydrogen...electricity one less step along the line and as i said already has a great deal of infrastructure. I dont ever want to go back to having to go to filling stations, its so awesome to just get home and plug in the car and give the finger to every gas station on the way home. When I do have to charge away from home...which is rare it does take a few minutes longer for now.....but when I think of all the time I used to spend filling up three times a week at the gas station, its a no brainer.
I just don't see hydrogen happening to many hurdles for not enough gain. With heavy research hydrogen may be able to compete, but then you have the whole infrastructure problem. Right now people are investing in making batteries more efficient and cheaper and that is progressing by leaps and bounds.
You're missing the point. Making a new electric car creates far more pollution than building a new regular car, and way way more than just getting a used car, and the savings of pollution generated by the car itself doesn't justify the switch. It just pushes most of the pollution to the electrical grid and onto the manufacturing side, because electrical cars are made of far more nasty chemicals and materials whose mining and refinement causes much more damage than a typical car.
Hybrids are indeed more eco-friendly because they use far less fuel and aren't using as many exotic materials as a pure electric car.
Electric cars will only be practical once we have widespread cheap non-polluting electricity, like 90%+ nuclear power, AND we have batteries that can last for 500+ hours AND we have charging stations everywhere which can charge a battery in a comparable time to filling a gas tank. But even then we will still have the issues that mining the raw materials is an issue.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/17 16:41:53
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I can't remember where but I was reading an article about how the battery production is bad for the environment. Right off the assembly line EVs have more of a bad impact, but over the course of 5 years a gas car will have produced far more smog, etc, to double the harmful impact the car's battery production may have had, and just continues to increase from there. But I think the other companies are getting on the bandwagon, I read another article about how Toyota was buying up tons of mines in China a while back, for producing EV batteries.
Also for the power grid, in a perfect world it would be great if homes could produce their own solar power, and run their cars from their own energy collection. That's expensive to install, but would be cool.
I was thinking, it might be cool if EVs could have some kinda solar panel roofs.. might not generate enough power for a full charge but it could be a cool way to negate stuff like vampire drain if you keep you car parked outside at work all day. I watched a video where a guy left his tesla parked at an airport while he was away for a week, the battery was totally dead when he got back and had to get towed home.
And yeah teslas can tow heavy things
2019/03/17 17:17:04
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
filbert wrote: Personally, I think electric cars are an evolutionary dead end; I don't think that shifting the fuel burden onto the national grid, which still consists of fossil fuel burning power plants in the main, is a good idea and certainly not if/when millions of people start needing to charge cars all the time - the power demands will be huge, at least here in the UK anyway, unless we want to see vast swathes of land and sea covered in wind farms.
Another factor that is overlooked is the environmental cost of making the batteries in the first place. There are a lot of rare and precious metals that go into making them and they often come from huge strip mines, in 3rd world countries and to the misery of the local population. Frankly, you would have less of an environmental footprint if you were to buy and run a decent second hand car rather than buy a new electric car. Quite honestly, there has been so much built in obsolescence in car manufacturing in recent years. We should be encouraged to use and maintain older cars rather than constantly buying new cars every few years. I think you could drive around in older cars for a lifetime and not approach the ecological damage that making a single electric car causes - not to mention the ongoing damage that will be caused when battery demand spikes upwards.
I would love to see hydrogen fuel cell cars as I think that is a much more viable technological route but it needs more work done - we need the infrastructure in place and the extraction costs of hydrogen need to get lower. James May made a wonderful film in a Top Gear episode where he went to California and test drove a Honda hydrogen car. Honda have been selling (well, leasing) hydrogen vehicles in California for a few years now so it's not like it can't be done - the tech is there but sadly, battery tech seems to have stolen the limelight despite being objectively 'worse' as a solution. It's a bit like the old VHS/Betamax thing all over again.
I'm going to disagree on a few points here. Running electric cars even with the current grid creates less pollution than running cars on gas.....and there is a big push to make our electric grids cleaner and renewable now. The environmental and societal concerns of the batteries isnt really justified when you look at the current environmental and societal concerns that come from gasoline dependence. Lets look at where most oil comes from, how the people live there and how many wars blood and dollars have been used to support it. How many dictators and terrorists get propped up on the petrol dollar? Yeah battery production could be more ethical, but I find it far more ethical than the current state of the Oil business.
That being said we should not just all throw our perfectly good ICE cars away, thats like throwing away your plastic straws to replace them with paper, use your plastic straws, but when it comes time to replace them make the right choice. As far as hydrogen VS electricity......we already have a national electricity grid for transporting and creating electricity in (most) every house in the US. We for sure can make it cleaner, but it already exists. Hydrogen is not power, electricity is power, you actually need electricity to create hydrogen...electricity one less step along the line and as i said already has a great deal of infrastructure. I dont ever want to go back to having to go to filling stations, its so awesome to just get home and plug in the car and give the finger to every gas station on the way home. When I do have to charge away from home...which is rare it does take a few minutes longer for now.....but when I think of all the time I used to spend filling up three times a week at the gas station, its a no brainer.
I just don't see hydrogen happening to many hurdles for not enough gain. With heavy research hydrogen may be able to compete, but then you have the whole infrastructure problem. Right now people are investing in making batteries more efficient and cheaper and that is progressing by leaps and bounds.
You're missing the point. Making a new electric car creates far more pollution than building a new regular car, and way way more than just getting a used car, and the savings of pollution generated by the car itself doesn't justify the switch. It just pushes most of the pollution to the electrical grid and onto the manufacturing side, because electrical cars are made of far more nasty chemicals and materials whose mining and refinement causes much more damage than a typical car.
Hybrids are indeed more eco-friendly because they use far less fuel and aren't using as many exotic materials as a pure electric car.
Electric cars will only be practical once we have widespread cheap non-polluting electricity, like 90%+ nuclear power, AND we have batteries that can last for 500+ hours AND we have charging stations everywhere which can charge a battery in a comparable time to filling a gas tank. But even then we will still have the issues that mining the raw materials is an issue.
I'm not missing the point. I said keep your old car while its serviceable, throwing usable stuff away is just wasteful! Production of the electric car might be worse, but during the life of the car its by far cleaner and by far more ethical! You can say what you want about what it takes to make a battery, but there is far less damage done globally for those "nasty chemicals and materials" than there is for oil! How much bombs, blood, and money do you think Lithium and Cobalt cost? We have been fighting in the middle east for a century over this stuff, most of the US defense budget goes to propping up petty dictators and ISIS and extreme militant terrorists are funded by it.
Hybrids are not more eco friendly, they still use gas, the gasoline infrastructure. The internal combustion engine is complex and difficult to maintain causing people to dispose of their cars before its really needed......essential waisting the entire car! Its still an ICE car with all those problems....and its still has all the problems with batteries too, but at a much more inefficient rate, smaller batteries are much less efficent than large ones....thats how production of scale and battery size work. If the motor goes in a EV...its pretty easy to replace, its one part, if the battery goes, its one part. When and ICE engine goes....which of the thousands of components is causing the trouble today, what strain did that put on the other parts? Whats going to break now tomorrow....screw it, might as well just get rid of the car! That is the death spiral of most every ICE car.....it wont happen with an electric car.
The issue you are making of mining the raw materials is way over rated when you look at what we compromise and do for oil. Electric cars are also the push needed to make better batteries and cleaner infrastructure. We are in the infancy of electric cars, there are already many innovation making batteries more powerful and less reliant on the exotic materials. I drive a lot, do you know how much a tax my car has put on the grid? My electric bill went up less than 10%, thats nothing, we need to make our electric grid cleaner for its own sake, not because of the extra demand electric cars are putting on on its a minimal difference.
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Necros wrote: I can't remember where but I was reading an article about how the battery production is bad for the environment. Right off the assembly line EVs have more of a bad impact, but over the course of 5 years a gas car will have produced far more smog, etc, to double the harmful impact the car's battery production may have had, and just continues to increase from there. But I think the other companies are getting on the bandwagon, I read another article about how Toyota was buying up tons of mines in China a while back, for producing EV batteries.
Also for the power grid, in a perfect world it would be great if homes could produce their own solar power, and run their cars from their own energy collection. That's expensive to install, but would be cool.
I was thinking, it might be cool if EVs could have some kinda solar panel roofs.. might not generate enough power for a full charge but it could be a cool way to negate stuff like vampire drain if you keep you car parked outside at work all day. I watched a video where a guy left his tesla parked at an airport while he was away for a week, the battery was totally dead when he got back and had to get towed home.
And yeah teslas can tow heavy things
People really undersell the damage that oil dependency has. its not just the pollution, from running the car. Its transportation, securing the country where it comes from, you must account for the devastation caused caused by the constant wars and fighting over oil. In the last 60 years how much of the American treasury has gone towards securing oil........people talk about electric tax incentives and subsidies......the US military is a giant oil subsidy that nobody thinks about. Did you know the EPA lists every parcel of land a gas station is on as toxic? Gasoline leaches out of the tanks. How many millions of acres do you think that is. People who make this argument about the environmental impact of batteries rarely look at the whole picture.
Vampire drain really should be minimal unless he did something wrong. Ive heard of people leaving their heat or ac on by accident, that would kill it for sure. In general you should lose maybe a mile a day if your car is just sitting there..
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/17 17:34:50
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
Lone Cat wrote: It is still far from practical especially with its ability to operate during flood or hurricane seasons are in question.
Well, how does that compare to anything else though? Gasoline can be terribly hard to come upon during a flood or a hurricane, when you do someone is usually price gouging for it. Dont forget the lines at the gas station during emergencies. Usually the sun is shining or wind is blowing to create electricity somewhere. If 300 miles cant get you away from the flood or hurricane.....its probably best not to be in a car. And sure globally....its not perfect yet, ecelctric cars are relitivley new as far as this generation of them anyway. a lot of counties have major problems with their electrical grid. Would I buy an EV in India or other countries.....probably not, their grid is pretty iffy. But in the US where our electric is pretty stable and there is a large and evergrowing network of superchargers....I think for 90% of the population it already makes sense, the rest will come as infrastructure grows.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/17 18:02:03
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
2019/03/17 19:43:00
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
filbert wrote: Personally, I think electric cars are an evolutionary dead end; I don't think that shifting the fuel burden onto the national grid, which still consists of fossil fuel burning power plants in the main, is a good idea and certainly not if/when millions of people start needing to charge cars all the time - the power demands will be huge, at least here in the UK anyway, unless we want to see vast swathes of land and sea covered in wind farms.
Another factor that is overlooked is the environmental cost of making the batteries in the first place. There are a lot of rare and precious metals that go into making them and they often come from huge strip mines, in 3rd world countries and to the misery of the local population. Frankly, you would have less of an environmental footprint if you were to buy and run a decent second hand car rather than buy a new electric car. Quite honestly, there has been so much built in obsolescence in car manufacturing in recent years. We should be encouraged to use and maintain older cars rather than constantly buying new cars every few years. I think you could drive around in older cars for a lifetime and not approach the ecological damage that making a single electric car causes - not to mention the ongoing damage that will be caused when battery demand spikes upwards.
I would love to see hydrogen fuel cell cars as I think that is a much more viable technological route but it needs more work done - we need the infrastructure in place and the extraction costs of hydrogen need to get lower. James May made a wonderful film in a Top Gear episode where he went to California and test drove a Honda hydrogen car. Honda have been selling (well, leasing) hydrogen vehicles in California for a few years now so it's not like it can't be done - the tech is there but sadly, battery tech seems to have stolen the limelight despite being objectively 'worse' as a solution. It's a bit like the old VHS/Betamax thing all over again.
I'm going to disagree on a few points here. Running electric cars even with the current grid creates less pollution than running cars on gas.....and there is a big push to make our electric grids cleaner and renewable now. The environmental and societal concerns of the batteries isnt really justified when you look at the current environmental and societal concerns that come from gasoline dependence. Lets look at where most oil comes from, how the people live there and how many wars blood and dollars have been used to support it. How many dictators and terrorists get propped up on the petrol dollar? Yeah battery production could be more ethical, but I find it far more ethical than the current state of the Oil business.
That being said we should not just all throw our perfectly good ICE cars away, thats like throwing away your plastic straws to replace them with paper, use your plastic straws, but when it comes time to replace them make the right choice. As far as hydrogen VS electricity......we already have a national electricity grid for transporting and creating electricity in (most) every house in the US. We for sure can make it cleaner, but it already exists. Hydrogen is not power, electricity is power, you actually need electricity to create hydrogen...electricity one less step along the line and as i said already has a great deal of infrastructure. I dont ever want to go back to having to go to filling stations, its so awesome to just get home and plug in the car and give the finger to every gas station on the way home. When I do have to charge away from home...which is rare it does take a few minutes longer for now.....but when I think of all the time I used to spend filling up three times a week at the gas station, its a no brainer.
I just don't see hydrogen happening to many hurdles for not enough gain. With heavy research hydrogen may be able to compete, but then you have the whole infrastructure problem. Right now people are investing in making batteries more efficient and cheaper and that is progressing by leaps and bounds.
You're missing the point. Making a new electric car creates far more pollution than building a new regular car, and way way more than just getting a used car, and the savings of pollution generated by the car itself doesn't justify the switch. It just pushes most of the pollution to the electrical grid and onto the manufacturing side, because electrical cars are made of far more nasty chemicals and materials whose mining and refinement causes much more damage than a typical car.
Hybrids are indeed more eco-friendly because they use far less fuel and aren't using as many exotic materials as a pure electric car.
Electric cars will only be practical once we have widespread cheap non-polluting electricity, like 90%+ nuclear power, AND we have batteries that can last for 500+ hours AND we have charging stations everywhere which can charge a battery in a comparable time to filling a gas tank. But even then we will still have the issues that mining the raw materials is an issue.
Isn't it a bit disingenuous to look at the manufacturing of the electric car battery and it's electricity- and only the emissions of the gas vehicle? Maybe lithium spills are just not reported as much, but I can think of several massive oil spills, like the BP Deepwater Horizon spill, which devastated much of the Gulf of Mexico.
I think if you want to consider the manufacturing process of the electricity, then it is only fair you consider the manufacturing process of the gasoline as well. This is dated, and fairly biased, but does illustrate the point-
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
2019/03/17 22:22:32
Subject: Re:What do you think about electric cars?
Imagine all the effort needed to transport and contain H2. It's a molecule so small it can percolate through many other materials that we'd ordinarily consider gas-proof, especially when held under pressure.
It wouldn't be simple. Not one bit.
What about the existing hydrogen models? The Honda one for example? Do they fall short?
It's not the cars, it's manufacturing, storing, and transporting vast quantities of H2 to replace gasoline or electricity.
Gasoline is a liquid; flammable, but easily containable. Natural gas is (obviously) a gas, but a fairly large molecule gas. Not as easy to contain as gasoline, but still fairly easily contained even under pressure.
H2 is a tiny molecule gas. Only He is smaller, as each atom of He is it's own 'molecule'. I'm sure you've seen how fast He percolates out of a balloon. Now imagine H2 percolating out of a storage tank or pipeline...
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filbert wrote: We should be encouraged to use and maintain older cars rather than constantly buying new cars every few years. I think you could drive around in older cars for a lifetime...
The trick is, that's not a very profitable business model, and in capitalism the priority is profit uber alles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/17 22:31:24
5500 pts 
6500 pts 
7000 pts 
9000 pts 
13.000 pts 
forgot use have different vehicles whoops. 
