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 Grey Templar wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
We're giving you a hard time because you're fan-boying so hard it's cringe-worthy. We're not here discussing why you like what you like. You're just beating this obnoxious Tesla drum so hard it's hilarious. Turn it down about twelve notches and people may take you more seriously.

I don't see it that way, I see it as people that don't know what they are talking about. There is a lot of misinformation about Evs out there. Most of your arguments come from not knowing the facts of Teslas or EVs iin general. Yeah, I'm hyped about it, Im a car guy and this is without a doubt the best car I've ever owned. It performs greatm has great range, i don't have to stop at the gas station anymore, and I don't even have to do regular maintenance. Its amazing to me. I've put thousands, maybe 10s of thousands of hours into repairing cars not to mention the money. EVs are a game changer and I think Tesla makes the best ones, best range, best performance.

See this is a prime example of your fanboi'ing. Its more OTT and cringy than an Ultrasmurf who just got his Ultramar Gone Wild magazine with Gulliman as the centerfold.

Hey, make a legitimate argument and we can have a discussion! If not you are just blowing smoke.

They've already been made in the thread. But I will remind you of them.

1) Tesla has unacceptable repair wait times. Yet they just keep pushing out new models instead of trying to support their existing ones properly.

2) EVs have little to no infrastructure in existence at the moment. This makes them highly unattractive to anybody who actually wants to drive anything other than a specific commute that has charging station access.

3) Teslas, and good EVs that compare to real vehicles in performance, are very expensive. They also won't hold their value long term because of system degradation and the fact that better EVs will come out in the near future, which will absolutely kill their value when you want to upgrade. No car dealer is going to give a good trade in value for a Model S in 10 years because by that time you'll have many new models of electric vehicle that will absolutely kick the snot out of your precious model S. And anybody who is shopping for a used vehicle isn't going to want to bother with an electric vehicle if they aren't already set up to own one.

4) Any EV requires you to set up a charging station at your house. That is a major electrical project and comes with the expenses and hazards that something like that involves.

5) Musk is a douce who will never see a red cent of my money.

So yeah. You really are coming across as a bad fanboi. We get it. You got your new shiny and are happy with it, thats good for you. But don't try to brow beat everybody with its alleged superiority when there are many many objective flaws with the product that a consumer would be wise to avoid.

Ok, and ive already addressed them and they are for the most part petty non issues.

1. Yeah OK, it can take a awhile to get a tesla repaired, I've admitted that they have infrastructure issues. However when you have to leave your tesla at ther shop they give you a free loaner, you get to put those miles on another car. I consider this a great way to mitigate the issue. Also compared to other EVs I dont know that Tesla wait times are exceptional. I don't think that any company maling EVS right now had a ton of backlog in spare parts.

2. Tesla has plenty of infrastructure, is it lacking in some of the rural areas, maybe. The Supercharger network is quite extensive. I mean there was a guy here who said there are no superchargers near him...i looked iit up there were and had been for 2 years.

3. Evs that compete in performance vs ICE cars are not expensive. My model 3 performance is better than a BMW M3 and is not only cheaper to purchase but is vastly cheaper to maintain and refuel. The same can be said for a base model 3 it is priced very competitvely vs similar cars, and again once you factor in fuel and maintenance savings you end up being far ahead. The rest of your argument is just grasping at straws. Tell me how another EV is coming to come along and be so substantially better than my model 3 performance? Will it go faster? Maybe but I already have 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and can go 167. Can it get more range, maybe, but I already get 310 miles per charge, which is more than I need except for cross country travel, and i drive pretty extensively on a daily basis. Could it charge faster, sure, but they already charge pretty quickly and for the most part people charge at home anyway where speed is a nonfactor. I plug my car in and and wake up to a full charge.

As for return on investment, I've already gotten it. For example my car is better than a BMW M3, if the value of my Tesla goes down so will all older cars. That's how a market works. Anyone who buys a car as an investment is not investing wisely.

Oh and model S and Xs have both retained their value pretty well on the used market and we are talkinig 7 year old cars at this point. https://electrek.co/2018/12/12/tesla-used-values-retention-competition-study/
https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/12/12/tesla-model-s-and-x-vehicles-boast-superior-resale.aspx

4. Firstly doing electric work is not hard or dangerous, you can watch a video on utube and do it completely safely. Or god forbid you have to hire an electrician for a few hundred dollars which you well get back in fuel savings. This is just a real whiney question and shows the weakness of your arguments in general. Where it is an issue is if you rent and there is no way for you to install charging, then yes its an issue is you don't have a supercharger near you....but thats how progress works, you cant just say a thing doesn't work because it doesn't work 100% for everyone. If that were the case wed all still be riding horses and waiting for gas stations to be built, eventually there will be chargers everywhere.

5. Thats your opinion fine sir, but I think it reflects more on you. I also think this is the real crux of your weak argument. You don't like Elon musk. Which is again a non issue, at least to me.

So i've addressed your arguments, most of which are petty non issues. and look i didnt have to resort to condescension, name calling or some kind of jerky tone. But then again I don't have to. I can easily just attack your argument. You however dont have a real argument so you resort to petty name calling....you are as enlightened as your argument. By the way a little research and backing of your argument with meaningful evidence would be nice....if you could find it.


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 Necros wrote:
I think Tesla does that.. they don't just make cars they sell solar panels and special battery packs for houses. They also have some special kind of solar shingles, so you use them for your roof instead of normal shingles and it acts as solar panels but I think it doesn't draw as much power as a normal panel would. Nice for if you're made of money and you want it to blend in.

These are nice....if you need to replace your roof anyway, otherwise I wouldnt tear off my roof for them. These are again more expensive on the front end, but eventually actually make you money. They are weather dependent though. Some places get much more sun and thus a better value. I don't know, Tesla actually called me since I bought their car, they are going to send someone to my house to see if its workable, but i have my doubts. I just had my roof replaced last year and none of the local installers did solar as they said it doesnt work well here.....is that true, maybe. I think the real reason is none of the local people are equipped or trained to do solar.


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 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I'd be all for it if they start mass producing ones that you can just plug into the mains. dont have to worry about fuel..just whack it on your leccy bill. easy

All EVs do this already. It doesnt charge very fast from a regular outlet about 4 miles an hour. If you do some wiring and put in a NEMA outlet (this is not hard or expensive) you can charge at about 30 miles an hour. This dos bring up a point that I think EV manufaturers need to address as there is a lot of misinformation out there (grey templar) and a lack of really telling the public the honest give and take on the cars. I have so many people ask me questions in public about the car that I just think the information could be shared better. When I tell people i just plug it in when I get home their minds are blown. Then I tell them yeah it goes 310 miles on about $8 worth of electricity and they cant believe it.

Tesal and Elon Musk dont like 2 wheeled vehicles, which I think is a shame, I'd love an electric Vespa or Sport bike.

Tesla makes the model X and will make the model Y which are both bigger cars/SUVs, They have plans for a pick up truck and They already have working prototypes of their Semi, in fact they are using it to make deliveries. So I guess that covers both the Big and Little machine issues.

I

Andrew, I think the comparison point of the BMW M3 is where you're losing folks. Sure, Teslas aren't expensive compared to a 66k dollar car. But are they compared to a new Ford Focus (20k)?

That, to me, is a much more fair comparison if you're going to argue for the economic value of an EV vs ICE.

The electric version of the Focus is 29k.

The question then becomes, how many miles equals 9k worth of maintenance and gas, and how many years will it take for you to recoup your investment? That's the information and angle you need to win the argument that electric vehicles save you money.

 Gitzbitah wrote:
Andrew, I think the comparison point of the BMW M3 is where you're losing folks. Sure, Teslas aren't expensive compared to a 66k dollar car. But are they compared to a new Ford Focus (20k)?

That, to me, is a much more fair comparison if you're going to argue for the economic value of an EV vs ICE.

The electric version of the Focus is 29k.

The question then becomes, how many miles equals 9k worth of maintenance and gas, and how many years will it take for you to recoup your investment? That's the information and angle you need to win the argument that electric vehicles save you money.

Exactly.

Not to mention the issue of some families only being able to afford one car, and need that car to go everywhere and do everything, and can't wait half an hour to refuel it.

Can those issues be solved? Yes, they can. Have they been solved yet? No, they have not. Not yet. Will they be solved? Probably... but as I said, not yet.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Gitzbitah wrote:
Andrew, I think the comparison point of the BMW M3 is where you're losing folks. Sure, Teslas aren't expensive compared to a 66k dollar car. But are they compared to a new Ford Focus (20k)?

That, to me, is a much more fair comparison if you're going to argue for the economic value of an EV vs ICE.

The electric version of the Focus is 29k.

The question then becomes, how many miles equals 9k worth of maintenance and gas, and how many years will it take for you to recoup your investment? That's the information and angle you need to win the argument that electric vehicles save you money.

Exactly.

Not to mention the issue of some families only being able to afford one car, and need that car to go everywhere and do everything, and can't wait half an hour to refuel it.

Can those issues be solved? Yes, they can. Have they been solved yet? No, they have not. Not yet. Will they be solved? Probably... but as I said, not yet.

Good questions. So first off you are trying to compare a compact with a mid size sedan. So lets start with Focus EV 29K vs Modle 3 EV 35K,

Model: 2017 Tesla Model 3
Range: 220 mi battery-only
Battery: 50 kWh lithium-ion
Horsepower: 258 hp
Curb weight: 3,549 lbs
Warranty: 4 yr/50,000 mi basic, 8 yr/100,000 mi powertrain


Range: 100 mi battery-only
Horsepower: 143
MSRP: From $29,120
Battery charge time: 20h at 110V, 3.5h at 220V, 0.5h at 440V
Battery: 33.5 kWh lithium-ion

So just on specs you can see the tesla has much more horse power, much more range, and a much larger battery, most of the Tesla Specs are almost double! Not to mention that it also has the much better charging network. So you are getting a larger car with almost twice the performance and range plus a network of chargers for a $6000 difference...oh and the over the air updates that tesla provides, plus the best antitheft system on the market and sentry mode. Thats just on very basic stats. If you want more you are going to have to be more specific with what you want comparisons on.

As for the base model 3 versus a ICE focus. Again the base model 3 is severely going to out perform the ICE focus The focus only has 123 horspower.

Here is a very good article https://cleantechnica.com/2019/03/03/tesla-model-3-total-cost-of-ownership-update-tesla-launches-meteor-to-kill-the-dinosaurs-of-the-auto-industry/ That shows that over 5 years a EV almost covers its upfront costs, and we all know that after 5 years is when the maitenance bills really start to add up on ICE cars....where as Telsas should have almost 0 maintenance costs. Its important to note that this article came when Tesla actually had a maintenance schedule...whcih they have since said was unnecessary. To understand you would have to see the Tesala old maintenance schedule which essentially a very expensive tire rotation every 7000 miles (which you can do yourself or get done anywhere much cheaper) and draining and replacing the brake fluid every 25,000 miles.....any car guy will tell you draining and replacing brake fluid in a sealed system is completely unnecessary and with the actual use that tesla brakes get probably something that doesnt ever need to happen, the classic disk brake system in a Tesla gets such little use it should last forever from pads, to rotors to calipers. Tesla has since admitted as much.

There are a couple of things i about this graph...nobody really know what the repair costs will be with the Tesla, its most people I know that have had a Tesla for 5 years....which is very few admittedly...have not put nearly this much into repairs or maintenance, but this is the writer of the article taking a stab at it I guess. It is much more expensive to get a tesla fixed after an accident. The sensors are very expensive to replace, and since there are few people certified to repair teslas they demand a premium for sure. Since this is usually covered by insurance I dont see this as a real cost.

How has the model 3 not solved you questions for one car family? It can go most everywhere and do everything (there are of course exceptions, but they are rare and extreme....but there are places that horses can still go that cars can't). Fueling is a matter of perspective. How much time have you spent total at the gas station the last 3 months....i havent spent any! My car is fully fueled in the morning. If you have a family you probably need to stop every 310 miles for a half hour anyway!

Here's what you're missing when you're reading this thread.

You're talking about your Tesla whatever, a car you like. That's great. Most of us are talking about real-life application of EVs on a worldwide scale. I haven't addressed your car directly because I'm not concerned about some small-time manufacturer producing cars for well-to-do first world people in urban areas. That's not a discussion on electric vehicles - at all.

You seem to be harping on how fast your car is and how much you like it. That's irrelevant to a general discussion of EVs. Yet you're making consistent, somewhat childish statements about "oh, I laugh as I pass gas stations", and "I can outrun a XXX on a drag strip". As far as I can tell no one is talking about your Tesla. I know nothing about your car other than I don't find it attractive. Beyond that I don't care. I don't think most other people care in this thread either. I don't see anyone saying that you shouldn't enjoy your car - that you like - that appeals to you.

You seem to be trying to convince everyone about how good EVs are because of how well they fit your particular situation. You're just kind of shouting past people who are discussing the worldwide implentation of EVs an actual solution to car transport (something they're not currently suitable for). No one's saying middle-upper class suburbanites shouldn't consider some kind of electric car for their commute...if that does it for you, go nuts.

This is not a personal affront, but you're just souring the thread with a lot of "my dad's cooler than your dad" style statements. You like your car - great, enjoy it. But don't come into the thread and pretend that because your Tesla suits your lifestyle that we're on the cusp of affordable, reliable, consistent EV transportation for the masses. You're looking through a microscope and ignoring the rest of the room.

 Elbows wrote:
Here's what you're missing when you're reading this thread.

You're talking about your Tesla whatever, a car you like. That's great. Most of us are talking about real-life application of EVs on a worldwide scale. I haven't addressed your car directly because I'm not concerned about some small-time manufacturer producing cars for well-to-do first world people in urban areas. That's not a discussion on electric vehicles - at all.

You seem to be harping on how fast your car is and how much you like it. That's irrelevant to a general discussion of EVs. Yet you're making consistent, somewhat childish statements about "oh, I laugh as I pass gas stations", and "I can outrun a XXX on a drag strip". As far as I can tell no one is talking about your Tesla. I know nothing about your car other than I don't find it attractive. Beyond that I don't care. I don't think most other people care in this thread either. I don't see anyone saying that you shouldn't enjoy your car - that you like - that appeals to you.

You seem to be trying to convince everyone about how good EVs are because of how well they fit your particular situation. You're just kind of shouting past people who are discussing the worldwide implentation of EVs an actual solution to car transport (something they're not currently suitable for). No one's saying middle-upper class suburbanites shouldn't consider some kind of electric car for their commute...if that does it for you, go nuts.

This is not a personal affront, but you're just souring the thread with a lot of "my dad's cooler than your dad" style statements. You like your car - great, enjoy it. But don't come into the thread and pretend that because your Tesla suits your lifestyle that we're on the cusp of affordable, reliable, consistent EV transportation for the masses. You're looking through a microscope and ignoring the rest of the room.

Really? I think thats a pretty odd take. Firstly again, the title is "what do you think of electric cars?" Not "What do you think of electric cars as the environmental solution to the worlds problems?" Thats what you keep trying to turn this into.

I've addressed why EVs are better as a world wide application for car transport already. If you notice the last response is about the base model 3 being better than a ford focus, which was the question that was asked. They fit my driving situation which is actually a pretty extreme situation, which means if it fits mine it will fit most. I spoke about the performace of my car because people were saying that EVs couldn't compete with ICE cars.

I believe your arguments were about lithium mining, which is a very minor issue compared to the damage oil and gasoline do in this world, as such its been dismissed. So if you want to explain why you specifically don't think they are a solution I'll have that discussion with you, but you just saying it without any backing info doesn't make it true. Your points are based in as much fact as Grey Templars...and are ans enlightened as "Windmill cancer".

 Andrew1975 wrote:


Really? I think thats a pretty odd take. Firstly again, the title is "what do you think of electric cars?" Not "What do you think of electric cars as the environmental solution to the worlds problems?" Thats what you keep trying to turn this into.

I've addressed why EVs are better as a world wide application for car transport already. If you notice the last response is about the base model 3 being better than a ford focus, which was the question that was asked. They fit my driving situation which is actually a pretty extreme situation, which means if it fits mine it will fit most. I spoke about the performace of my car because people were saying that EVs couldn't compete with ICE cars.

I believe your arguments were about lithium mining, which is a very minor issue compared to the damage oil and gasoline do in this world, as such its been dismissed. So if you want to explain why you specifically don't think they are a solution I'll have that discussion with you, but you just saying it without any backing info doesn't make it true. Your points are based in as much fact as Grey Templars...and are ans enlightened as "Windmill cancer".

If you can't charge your EV everywhere in the world, then they aren't ready for world wide application yet. Maybe, maybe in 10-15 years they will be able to go anywhere in the US. But they're not anywhere close to being viable for that right now.

Your constant ranting about your Tesla's performance is rather irrelevant. Tesla's are a premium vehicle. Expensive, and heavily propped up by both government subsidies and the obsession of an eccentric rich guy. Using them to gauge the overall viability of Electric Vehicles as a whole is like gauging the strength of the average human by only looking at the participants of a body builder competition.

Yes. You can build an electric vehicle that compares in terms of performance with a regular vehicle. but said vehicle is expensive and comes with a lot of drawbacks in terms of expensive repair bills and long wait times and you have limited places where you can drive.

Yes, those drawbacks will get better over the next decade. I expect electric vehicles will probably replace most regular vehicles within the next 20 years or so. But that is the future. Not the present. For the present, EVs are still overall a fairly lame option with too many drawbacks for too little benefit. It may be working out for you, but most people don't have your disposable income to get a Tesla.

Is anyone here calling for all vehicles to be replaced with electrical powered ones? Asides from Neil degrasse Tyson?

No.

No one is saying all internal combustion engines should be replaced except for NDT, and I don't see any evidence he's here.

Suppose we only, hah, "only " replace half the billions of internal combustion engines on earth with electric? Or something else.

Think it might make a difference in CO2 emissions? Think it might reduce fossile fuel use?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:


Really? I think thats a pretty odd take. Firstly again, the title is "what do you think of electric cars?" Not "What do you think of electric cars as the environmental solution to the worlds problems?" Thats what you keep trying to turn this into.

I've addressed why EVs are better as a world wide application for car transport already. If you notice the last response is about the base model 3 being better than a ford focus, which was the question that was asked. They fit my driving situation which is actually a pretty extreme situation, which means if it fits mine it will fit most. I spoke about the performace of my car because people were saying that EVs couldn't compete with ICE cars.

I believe your arguments were about lithium mining, which is a very minor issue compared to the damage oil and gasoline do in this world, as such its been dismissed. So if you want to explain why you specifically don't think they are a solution I'll have that discussion with you, but you just saying it without any backing info doesn't make it true. Your points are based in as much fact as Grey Templars...and are ans enlightened as "Windmill cancer".

If you can't charge your EV everywhere in the world, then they aren't ready for world wide application yet. Maybe, maybe in 10-15 years they will be able to go anywhere in the US. But they're not anywhere close to being viable for that right now.

Your constant ranting about your Tesla's performance is rather irrelevant. Tesla's are a premium vehicle. Expensive, and heavily propped up by both government subsidies and the obsession of an eccentric rich guy. Using them to gauge the overall viability of Electric Vehicles as a whole is like gauging the strength of the average human by only looking at the participants of a body builder competition.

Yes. You can build an electric vehicle that compares in terms of performance with a regular vehicle. but said vehicle is expensive and comes with a lot of drawbacks in terms of expensive repair bills and long wait times and you have limited places where you can drive.

Yes, those drawbacks will get better over the next decade. I expect electric vehicles will probably replace most regular vehicles within the next 20 years or so. But that is the future. Not the present. For the present, EVs are still overall a fairly lame option with too many drawbacks for too little benefit. It may be working out for you, but most people don't have your disposable income to get a Tesla.

I love how you guys take a question about a guy buying a car in America and have to grasp at worldwide straws to try to make a point.

Firstly why does a car have to be usable everywhere in the world instantly? Most of the world does have electricity though right? So pretty much anywhere there is electricity you can charge it. However your arguments go against what most people like to call progressive implementation. Right now in the United states and most of the modern world EVs are pretty usable and in the US with Teslas Supercharger system you can go pretty much anywhere.

Some Telsas are premium vehicles, just like some Fords are premium or some GM cars are premium, the base model 3 is not. Its 35K hardly premium, unless you consider a toyota corrola or honda accord premium which the tesla actually ends up being far cheaper than in the long run, and its a much better car in almost every metric. Expensive repairs? Jesus can you read, the cost of ownership including repairs is by far cheaper. Long wait times you get a free loaner.....whaaaa.

Oh and if you want to talk about government subsidies lets talk about all the oil subsidies out there. Oil is one of the most subsidized products on the planet. Jesus, the US military budget is basically a giant oil subsidy. Lets not also forget how heavily our legacy auto manufactures have been subsidized and bailed out. How much of our healthcare subsidizes sickness based on the pollution caused by ICE cars and oil. How many oil spills do we need to pay to clean up? How many bombs do we need to drop, how many dictators do we need to prop up? Subsidies? Really? You get your arguments from fox news don't you?

So again really weak arguments against Teslas and EVs in general.

We are very lucky to have the lead in this technology and the US should support it as much as we can. If China gets the lead in this........US auto manufacturing is DEAD, DEAD, DEAD! That is a lot of jobs and a lot of Americans in the unemployment lines. I will never understand the short sightedness of flag waving "Mericans" who always fight against their own self interests. There are bunch of people around me who used to work at the Lordstown plant who don't get why they lost their jobs. I know why they lost them. The big three are slow and stupid companies, still trying to hold on to the old ways when they could have been in the lead. Ford isnt even making sedans anymore because "Sedans don't sell". No, Corrolas sell, Accords sell, Ford just cant make a competitive product because they are so far behind. But you know what these people have lost their jobs because they voted conservative, "He's gonna bring back coal".....keep looking in the rear view mirror folks, because thats the only place you will see those jobs.
.

As far as affordable EVs go, they are more affordable over the years that you own them but unfortunately the purchase price is higher. There are some good articles and YT videos talking about the costs they spent over time and the average consensus seems to be that an EV will cost you about 75% less to own over time than a gas car, due to the lower cost of electricity and little to no regular maintenance. About all you have to worry about is tires and breaks. So if you would spend $1000 a year on gas, you'll spend about $250 a year extra on your electric bill.

Using the Ford Focus for example, a base model Focus starts around $18k, that's a good price for a new small car. The EV is almost twice that at $29k. The base model isn't a good comparison though because the EV version basically has all of the goodies you get in the high end version that is $24k. I think that is one of the problems with EVs, is that the car companies are loading them up with features that make them more expensive, over time we may see more base models as EVs become more popular, batteries become cheaper to make and have better range.

I think, personally, I would rather spend $6000 more and get a base model tesla model 3 than the Focus EV. You'll have better range and tech inside. However there is one big issue where Teslas are making so many cars now that they will be using the tax refunds soon, they will be gone by the end of the year.. other companies that haven't made as many do still have the refund which can be up to $7000.

Yeah, elon musk is a tool, but then so was Bill Gates and how many people use Windows? Lots of people seem to hate the guy that made Battlefoam, but they still have a great product that many of us own

I am still planning to test drive a model 3 soon. However after seeing some videos on the new VW Hippy Van, I'm almost tempted to just wait for that. But me being the impulse buyer that I am, I probably won't be able to wait till 2022. Here's a long but great video on it

The model 3 is actually set up to make you money once the tech and government regulations are there. So imagine this you go to work and charge your car in the parking lot (remote charging is already a thing, just like with phones you wont actuallty have to plug them in, just drive over a carger and leave it there). Someone goes on their app and needs a car. They hail your car! your car drives around and acts as their taxi using the self drive features. When they are done it goes back to your parking space, recharges for your trip home......and now while you were working your car has actually put money into your account. That's pretty far away, but not as far as people think. The model three has all the hardware already installed for this including an internal camera to people cant mess with your car while they are riding in it.

I dunno if I'd do that, I'd be too scared they'll mess up my car camera or not. Plus, cooties. But I could see it coming in handy for a biz, like if you wanted to set up a driverless taxi service kind of thing. There would probably be a lot of competition though.

 Necros wrote:
I dunno if I'd do that, I'd be too scared they'll mess up my car camera or not. Plus, cooties. But I could see it coming in handy for a biz, like if you wanted to set up a driverless taxi service kind of thing. There would probably be a lot of competition though.

If well done and the moneys right id totally think about it. I'm sure it will have a rating factor that will keep jackassery down to a minimum. Sure you are still going to have some horror stories like lift and uber do, but it might not be too bad.

Also for those that think Teslas are only for the elite. Here is a graphic that shows the model 3 actually is currently the Cheapest EV based on range per dollar, it also out performs them in almost every other way and has the Supercharging network.

“Cheapest EV for range” doesn’t change that it’s sticker price is out of most people’s price range.

If tesla wasn't a threat to big car makers they wouldn't be using their financial clout to get stares to make it hard for tesla to sell their cars in them. https://qz.com/1574917/texas-may-pass-a-law-preventing-tesla-from-fixing-its-own-cars/

 Grey Templar wrote:
“Cheapest EV for range” doesn’t change that it’s sticker price is out of most people’s price range.

Yeah, the 35K model is so far into the luxury field the air is thin up there. Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

When automobiles first came out the were a luxury only for the rich.......Evs are not. $35K (not even including insentives which actually brings it down to 29K in some places) no maitenance charges and 1/4 the fuel cost is not a high price. Its AGAIN cheaper than comparable ICE cars but the Tesla still has much better stats and will get even cheaper the longer you own it...which figures are saying these should last at minimum 500,000 miles if not a million or more.


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 Techpriestsupport wrote:
If tesla wasn't a threat to big car makers they wouldn't be using their financial clout to get stares to make it hard for tesla to sell their cars in them. https://qz.com/1574917/texas-may-pass-a-law-preventing-tesla-from-fixing-its-own-cars/

Thats more of the Dealerships fighting Tesla than actual car companies......The car companies are frightened too.

 Grey Templar wrote:
“Cheapest EV for range” doesn’t change that it’s sticker price is out of most people’s price range.

You keep saying this, but you established that you think "any car you can't pay in cash for" is not affordable - ie, anything >10K. Is that accurately describing your view?

Because if so, I'm telling you, this is not a rational position and by that definition every car on the market is out of most people's price range. I have no dog in this particular fight but this isn't a reasonable counterargument.

It may not be a 100k luxury car, but 35k is still in the luxury car ballpark.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It may not be a 100k luxury car, but 35k is still in the luxury car ballpark.

Hardly. It's not a low-end discount car, but $35k is not reasonably "luxury" territory when a boring Toyota Camry costs $25k before options.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It may not be a 100k luxury car, but 35k is still in the luxury car ballpark.

I'll give it to you, you just never get tired of being wrong do you?

The analysts at Kelley Blue Book today reported the estimated average transaction price for light vehicles in the United States was $37,577 in December 2018

If it was up to Grey Templar new cars would be 10K.......i don't know what a new 10K car is.........maybe a YUGO.......in 1985?

I think Yugo's were like cheaper than $5k back in the day

To me $35k is too high for a sedan, but my last 3 cars/SUVs were all less than $25k. When I started looking into a new Jeep wrangler I saw that for the upgrades I wanted, I'd be in the $40k range and that kinda blew me away. I looked into other options and the prices were all similar for what I would want. 6 months later now I accepted that that's just how much I'm gonna have to pay for the kind of new car that I would want, and the more I think about it, I really don't need a big SUV to get me to work and the grocery store. After researching EVs I decided I'd rather go electric for the next one. Just haven't decided which one yet, but I don't think I'll be ready to buy till this summer anyway, waiting for my mid-year bonus If I don't like driving the Model 3 since I'm so used to SUV height, I may just hold off and save another year or so for the model Y, or see what other taller EVs come out next.

 Necros wrote:
I think Yugo's were like cheaper than $5k back in the day

To me $35k is too high for a sedan, but my last 3 cars/SUVs were all less than $25k. When I started looking into a new Jeep wrangler I saw that for the upgrades I wanted, I'd be in the $40k range and that kinda blew me away. I looked into other options and the prices were all similar for what I would want. 6 months later now I accepted that that's just how much I'm gonna have to pay for the kind of new car that I would want, and the more I think about it, I really don't need a big SUV to get me to work and the grocery store. After researching EVs I decided I'd rather go electric for the next one. Just haven't decided which one yet, but I don't think I'll be ready to buy till this summer anyway, waiting for my mid-year bonus If I don't like driving the Model 3 since I'm so used to SUV height, I may just hold off and save another year or so for the model Y, or see what other taller EVs come out next.

I think 35K for a basic sedan is probably too much also. But a even the base model 3 isnt a basic sedan. I think as far as 35K cars go, its performance is far superior and probably worth it just based on that. Then you get the cheap fuel, ease of maintenance and possible extended longevity its a deal. Now for the full experience you have to add an additional 8k for auto pilot and Full self drive...so there is that too.

The model 3 has a ton of storage space, the trunk is huge and then you can fold down the seats, plus there is a frunk. But if sedans are not for you...then they just arent. If you do like it, remember to ask about floor models with adjustments, that saved me a buttload.

They need to make a basic electric car, maybe a 2 seater and make it as low cost as possible. Theyçre trying to make them stylish to counter he image they they have to be cheap and small. Maybe a lot of people want cheap and don't mind small.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
They need to make a basic electric car, maybe a 2 seater and make it as low cost as possible. Theyçre trying to make them stylish to counter he image they they have to be cheap and small. Maybe a lot of people want cheap and don't mind small.

There are, but nobody wants them. There are a lot of small enimic short range electric cars, they don't sell well, at least in the united states. Most people are not going to buy an EV unless it is in most ways better than the ICE car it will replace. You have to also remember the most expensive part right now on an EV is the battery, which dictates range and horsepower. So any car EV with a decent battery is going to be have to factor that into the cost.

These are the cheapest EVS out there, they are econo boxes but again because of the battery expense and limited production (because of limited demand) they are not cheap.

https://www.autotrader.com/best-cars/8-least-expensive-electric-vehicles-234077


There is this thing, but how well is it going to sell? I think its too much of a leap for your average person.


https://www.seattletimes.com/business/canadas-answer-to-tesla-is-a-15500-electric-three-wheeler/

For 2-seaters, I think Smart cars are all electric now, and start in the low 20's. To me that's too high for 2 seats and 140 mile range. But i don't think you can get range much higher on them since they're so small, they probably use as much space for batteries as they can. Personally I'd be scared to drive one them around here, too many big cars & SUVs and distracted drivers. Plus I'm too fat, they would need to make mine a 1-seater

I agree though, for your average consumer they are going to need to have more affordable options, with good range. I think 300 miles should be the minimum with more like 5-600 at the top end, and charging speeds at stations in the 15 minute max range. Will get there eventually but it will take a few years if not maybe another decade or so.

Of course if gas prices keep climbing the way they have been the last few months maybe more people will start to think about EVs sooner.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Is anyone here calling for all vehicles to be replaced with electrical powered ones? Asides from Neil degrasse Tyson?

No.

No one is saying all internal combustion engines should be replaced except for NDT, and I don't see any evidence he's here.

Suppose we only, hah, "only " replace half the billions of internal combustion engines on earth with electric? Or something else.

Think it might make a difference in CO2 emissions? Think it might reduce fossile fuel use?

Well, pretty much the entire US Democratic Party. GND is a thing.

I am intrigued about electric scooters / bikes. Not the crappy hipster scooters infesting urban centers like a plague, but an electric version of the ubiquitous moped. What are the applications of electric mopeds in the 2nd world and urban 1st world?


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 Andrew1975 wrote:
The model 3 is actually set up to make you money once the tech and government regulations are there. So imagine this you go to work and charge your car in the parking lot (remote charging is already a thing, just like with phones you wont actuallty have to plug them in, just drive over a carger and leave it there). Someone goes on their app and needs a car. They hail your car! your car drives around and acts as their taxi using the self drive features. When they are done it goes back to your parking space, recharges for your trip home......and now while you were working your car has actually put money into your account. That's pretty far away, but not as far as people think. The model three has all the hardware already installed for this including an internal camera to people cant mess with your car while they are riding in it.

So someone else is paying for your energy? How long do you think thats going to last?


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 Grey Templar wrote:
It may not be a 100k luxury car, but 35k is still in the luxury car ballpark.

Indeed. The Acura ILX is $30K. $35K is the highest end Honda Accord Touring.

You're also comparing substantially larger vehicles to electric econo boxes at luxury price points. Prices still have to drop a good bit before electrics become competitive. NOT saying they won't but they just aren't there yet.

The energy to charge 310 miles is like 8 dollars, having a taxi drive you around I would say would be at least $2 a mile. Not saying youd get all that of course I'm sure Tesla would take a pretty big cut, but you'd probably make as much as an UBER or lyft driver.....and you really are not having to do anything for it.

The modlel 3 is a pretty large car actually the interior is easily as big as my wifes Chrysler 300 and it has more storage room. Its not a small econo bax. Most of the other ones are though. That smart car is stupid expensive for what it gives you.

As for replacing all ICE cars, I think it will happen just because EVs will be the better deal. I think the model 3 is already at that point, I think in most any terms it blows away any other 35K car definitely better than the accord or acura, but its a mid priced car for sure. Now it is a toss up though. The model 3 is going to have better performance, cheaper fuel and cheaper maintenance. The Acura and Accord will have a nicer interior and better sound system. The base model 35K model 3 has cloth seats and a basic sound system. If you go up to $37.5 K you get the leather seats and the premium sound system (one of the best factory sound systems I have ever heard). Still I think when you compare it to similarly priced cars the model 3 is going to come out as the better car for most people.

We will have to see if someone can make a cheaper smaller car at a reasonable price.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Is anyone here calling for all vehicles to be replaced with electrical powered ones? Asides from Neil degrasse Tyson?

No.

No one is saying all internal combustion engines should be replaced except for NDT, and I don't see any evidence he's here.

Suppose we only, hah, "only " replace half the billions of internal combustion engines on earth with electric? Or something else.

Think it might make a difference in CO2 emissions? Think it might reduce fossile fuel use?

Well, pretty much the entire US Democratic Party. GND is a thing.

I am intrigued about electric scooters / bikes. Not the crappy hipster scooters infesting urban centers like a plague, but an electric version of the ubiquitous moped. What are the applications of electric mopeds in the 2nd world and urban 1st world?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
The model 3 is actually set up to make you money once the tech and government regulations are there. So imagine this you go to work and charge your car in the parking lot (remote charging is already a thing, just like with phones you wont actuallty have to plug them in, just drive over a carger and leave it there). Someone goes on their app and needs a car. They hail your car! your car drives around and acts as their taxi using the self drive features. When they are done it goes back to your parking space, recharges for your trip home......and now while you were working your car has actually put money into your account. That's pretty far away, but not as far as people think. The model three has all the hardware already installed for this including an internal camera to people cant mess with your car while they are riding in it.

So someone else is paying for your energy? How long do you think thats going to last?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It may not be a 100k luxury car, but 35k is still in the luxury car ballpark.

Indeed. The Acura ILX is $30K. $35K is the highest end Honda Accord Touring.

You're also comparing substantially larger vehicles to electric econo boxes at luxury price points. Prices still have to drop a good bit before electrics become competitive. NOT saying they won't but they just aren't there yet.

No, the entire democrat party is not wanting to ban all current cars, stop getting your information from fox propaganda channel.

If The US stopped subsidizing oil, you's see a change real fast though. The EV subsidy is nothing compared to oil subsidies.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Gitzbitah wrote:
Andrew, I think the comparison point of the BMW M3 is where you're losing folks. Sure, Teslas aren't expensive compared to a 66k dollar car. But are they compared to a new Ford Focus (20k)?

That, to me, is a much more fair comparison if you're going to argue for the economic value of an EV vs ICE.

The electric version of the Focus is 29k.

The question then becomes, how many miles equals 9k worth of maintenance and gas, and how many years will it take for you to recoup your investment? That's the information and angle you need to win the argument that electric vehicles save you money.

Exactly.

Not to mention the issue of some families only being able to afford one car, and need that car to go everywhere and do everything, and can't wait half an hour to refuel it.

Can those issues be solved? Yes, they can. Have they been solved yet? No, they have not. Not yet. Will they be solved? Probably... but as I said, not yet.

Good questions. So first off you are trying to compare a compact with a mid size sedan. So lets start with Focus EV 29K vs Modle 3 EV 35K,

Model: 2017 Tesla Model 3
Range: 220 mi battery-only
Battery: 50 kWh lithium-ion
Horsepower: 258 hp
Curb weight: 3,549 lbs
Warranty: 4 yr/50,000 mi basic, 8 yr/100,000 mi powertrain


Range: 100 mi battery-only
Horsepower: 143
MSRP: From $29,120
Battery charge time: 20h at 110V, 3.5h at 220V, 0.5h at 440V
Battery: 33.5 kWh lithium-ion

So just on specs you can see the tesla has much more horse power, much more range, and a much larger battery, most of the Tesla Specs are almost double! Not to mention that it also has the much better charging network. So you are getting a larger car with almost twice the performance and range plus a network of chargers for a $6000 difference...oh and the over the air updates that tesla provides, plus the best antitheft system on the market and sentry mode. Thats just on very basic stats. If you want more you are going to have to be more specific with what you want comparisons on.

As for the base model 3 versus a ICE focus. Again the base model 3 is severely going to out perform the ICE focus The focus only has 123 horspower.

Here is a very good article https://cleantechnica.com/2019/03/03/tesla-model-3-total-cost-of-ownership-update-tesla-launches-meteor-to-kill-the-dinosaurs-of-the-auto-industry/ That shows that over 5 years a EV almost covers its upfront costs, and we all know that after 5 years is when the maitenance bills really start to add up on ICE cars....where as Telsas should have almost 0 maintenance costs. Its important to note that this article came when Tesla actually had a maintenance schedule...whcih they have since said was unnecessary. To understand you would have to see the Tesala old maintenance schedule which essentially a very expensive tire rotation every 7000 miles (which you can do yourself or get done anywhere much cheaper) and draining and replacing the brake fluid every 25,000 miles.....any car guy will tell you draining and replacing brake fluid in a sealed system is completely unnecessary and with the actual use that tesla brakes get probably something that doesnt ever need to happen, the classic disk brake system in a Tesla gets such little use it should last forever from pads, to rotors to calipers. Tesla has since admitted as much.

There are a couple of things i about this graph...nobody really know what the repair costs will be with the Tesla, its most people I know that have had a Tesla for 5 years....which is very few admittedly...have not put nearly this much into repairs or maintenance, but this is the writer of the article taking a stab at it I guess. It is much more expensive to get a tesla fixed after an accident. The sensors are very expensive to replace, and since there are few people certified to repair teslas they demand a premium for sure. Since this is usually covered by insurance I dont see this as a real cost.

How has the model 3 not solved you questions for one car family? It can go most everywhere and do everything (there are of course exceptions, but they are rare and extreme....but there are places that horses can still go that cars can't). Fueling is a matter of perspective. How much time have you spent total at the gas station the last 3 months....i havent spent any! My car is fully fueled in the morning. If you have a family you probably need to stop every 310 miles for a half hour anyway!

Aside from when you're looking at a full day of work and running around after the kids and there isn't half an hour to spare before dinnertime, but your charge won't last that long.

There's also the probability that $30K-plus is well beyond a one-car-family's budget...

I thought it was funny when you were accused of shilling for Tesla... at first. Now I'm really starting to wonder.