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jouso wrote:

Except CCS is VHS and superchargers are the Betamax.

CCS network is already bigger than Tesla's in most countries. With possible faster chargers without having to wait for a new version as is the case of Tesla.

Tesla has basically stopped building new chargers because they're short of cash so the gap will only increase.

Nope.... SC deployment hasn't changed at all, and has nothing to do with cash on hand. You really need to start getting your info from places other than short seller twitters

 ncshooter426 wrote:

jouso wrote:

Except CCS is VHS and superchargers are the Betamax.

CCS network is already bigger than Tesla's in most countries. With possible faster chargers without having to wait for a new version as is the case of Tesla.

Tesla has basically stopped building new chargers because they're short of cash so the gap will only increase.

Nope.... SC deployment hasn't changed at all, and has nothing to do with cash on hand. You really need to start getting your info from places other than short seller twitters

Why don't you find out how many new chargers Tesla has built in Europe in 2019 (after promising all Europe coverage back in December)

CCS chargers are being built at a pace of around 5 per day (having multiple companies involved helps).

And it had everything to do with cash. Tesla CapEx is now lower than depreciation that's a clear cash conservation strategy.

 wuestenfux wrote:
A hybrid would be the best of both worlds I guess.
Not sure but I'll consider a BMW 235 xe next time. Its an all-wheel drive and a hybrid with about 230 PS (horse power).

Problem with hybrids is now you have the issues of both systems. Still all the maintenance of an ICE car.


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jouso wrote:

 ncshooter426 wrote:

jouso wrote:

Except CCS is VHS and superchargers are the Betamax.

CCS network is already bigger than Tesla's in most countries. With possible faster chargers without having to wait for a new version as is the case of Tesla.

Tesla has basically stopped building new chargers because they're short of cash so the gap will only increase.

Nope.... SC deployment hasn't changed at all, and has nothing to do with cash on hand. You really need to start getting your info from places other than short seller twitters

Why don't you find out how many new chargers Tesla has built in Europe in 2019 (after promising all Europe coverage back in December)

CCS chargers are being built at a pace of around 5 per day (having multiple companies involved helps).


And it had everything to do with cash. Tesla CapEx is now lower than depreciation that's a clear cash conservation strategy.

https://insideevs.com/news/341811/heres-why-teslas-supercharging-network-will-prevail/

Problem with hybrids is now you have the issues of both systems. Still all the maintenance of an ICE car.

You mean maintenance could be more costly.
Nice point. I'll have a look at it.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
A hybrid would be the best of both worlds I guess.
Not sure but I'll consider a BMW 235 xe next time. Its an all-wheel drive and a hybrid with about 230 PS (horse power).

Problem with hybrids is now you have the issues of both systems. Still all the maintenance of an ICE car.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

 ncshooter426 wrote:

jouso wrote:

Except CCS is VHS and superchargers are the Betamax.

CCS network is already bigger than Tesla's in most countries. With possible faster chargers without having to wait for a new version as is the case of Tesla.

Tesla has basically stopped building new chargers because they're short of cash so the gap will only increase.

Nope.... SC deployment hasn't changed at all, and has nothing to do with cash on hand. You really need to start getting your info from places other than short seller twitters

Why don't you find out how many new chargers Tesla has built in Europe in 2019 (after promising all Europe coverage back in December)

CCS chargers are being built at a pace of around 5 per day (having multiple companies involved helps).


And it had everything to do with cash. Tesla CapEx is now lower than depreciation that's a clear cash conservation strategy.

https://insideevs.com/news/341811/heres-why-teslas-supercharging-network-will-prevail/

jouso is not talking about the USA.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
jouso is not talking about the USA.

He is aware of that, he simply chooses to ignore it since it wrecks his "Tesla is the super special bestest perfectest EVER!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!" street teaming.

 Just Tony wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
jouso is not talking about the USA.

He is aware of that, he simply chooses to ignore it since it wrecks his "Tesla is the super special bestest perfectest EVER!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!" street teaming.

I don't really care if he's talking Europe or United States. We know already Teslas Superchargers are better and more available in the US. Model 3 is taking Europe by storm right now. Is it possible that one standard rules the US and one rules Europe, possibly. Lets face it though, the one that rules the US isn't going anywhere for awhile. The Tesla network killer is as visible now as the "Tesla Killer" car. I'm still waiting for someone that even competes much less kills.

I see a lot more of all the other models of EVs in the UK than the Tesla. For instance it's a rare day I don't see two or three BMW 13s, or Nissan Leafs.

I see a Tesla nearly every day because there's usually one parked at the charger in the Park and Ride, next to the two Leafs attached to the EU charger.

IDK if the Tesla can connect to EU standard EV plugs, but if it can't, it's not going to have much of a future. But that's only a matter of changing the plug and the inverter (?) which supplies the electricity to the battery.

Aftermarket adapter kits will probably sort that problem out, unless Tesla aggressively goes after producers in hopes to maintain exclusivity, which would be pretty dumb on their part when to comes to the REST of the planet that isn't the US. It wouldn't be shooting yourself in the foot, it'd be bathing in napalm.

A car manufacturer which imagines it can corner the market for vehicle and fuel supply is smoking some powerful stuff.

Kilkrazy wrote:IDK if the Tesla can connect to EU standard EV plugs,

I think they can. There are some chargers a few metres from my home and all kinds of cars are hooked up there. I think I have seen Teslas there (but mostly BMW, and others) and if I remember correctly there does exist some EU law about interoperability of chargers (kinda how all smartphones are supposed to be able to use the same type of USB chargers these days).

Mario wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:IDK if the Tesla can connect to EU standard EV plugs,

I think they can. There are some chargers a few metres from my home and all kinds of cars are hooked up there. I think I have seen Teslas there (but mostly BMW, and others) and if I remember correctly there does exist some EU law about interoperability of chargers (kinda how all smartphones are supposed to be able to use the same type of USB chargers these days).

Tesla already switched to CSS in Europe for the model 3 to make charging easier there. Tesla also makes a CSS adapter for models made before the switch. My Tesla came with an adapter so that I can charge pretty much anywhere in the US that uses J1772 chargers which is most non Tesla Chargers in the US. Also many of the newer Tesla chargers in Europe are combination chargers featuring a Tesla charger and a CSS charger. Tesla has stated they are not trying to create a walled garden for Tesla vehicles, but if others want to share the Tesla chargers they want real partners. Teslas goal has always been to create and environment friendly to EV saturation, not a Tesla only club.




This is also why Teslas network has not grown substantially in Europe, they have been busy adding CSS chargers to existing stations.
https://insideevs.com/news/343728/most-tesla-superchargers-now-retrofitted-with-ccs-plugs-in-europe-video/

Tesla-CCS Superchargers will enable Model 3 to charge at up to 250 kW, there are about 400 banks of these in Europe. The other CCS DC fast chargers (like the 175 kW Fastned units) so far provided up to 125 kW of power, there are 95 of these in all of Europe! Most CSS chargers are at only about 50 KW which is very slow. As you can see the Telsla Chargers even when fitted with CCS connections are more powerful than the current CSS standard, Tesla V3 chargers are even more powerful.

http://ccs-map.eu/

So as far as charging goes, yes there are more chargers that are not Tesla....but Telsa has the largest network of High Speed Chargers in both Europe and The US! Again while most of your charging will be done at home, when you go on a trip you want the fastest charging possible......that currently is Tesla. Which is again why I say EVEN IN EUROPE Teslas network of charging is better!

The hard truth of the charger battle basically comes down to this, the problem today is that the 3 fast charging standards were developed for different purposes. CHAdeMO was designed as a urban backup charger for those rare occasions when you get a little far from home and need a little extra juice to get back. Tesla's standard was designed to be a small, clean connector that can handle everything from 120volt 8amps, 1 KW AC to 250 KW DC Superchargers. CCS was designed by ICE companies that did not want EVs, also to conflict with Tesla and make use of the J-1772 connector which had carefully been made to NOT support high power charging AND be delayed past when Tesla actually had to start selling cars. Europe went their own way to intentionally NOT be compatible with US systems (that were already in place) as a protectionist move to make it harder for American companies to sell in Europe.

If the US system was deliberately designed to be inferior as you claim, then it's probably a good thing it's not been adopted elsewhere.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
If the US system was deliberately designed to be inferior as you claim, then it's probably a good thing it's not been adopted elsewhere.

Your reading comprehension is amazing.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

CCS was designed by ICE companies that did not want EVs, also to conflict with Tesla and make use of the J-1772 connector which had carefully been made to NOT support high power charging AND be delayed past when Tesla actually had to start selling cars. Europe went their own way to intentionally NOT be compatible with US systems (that were already in place) as a protectionist move to make it harder for American companies to sell in Europe.

Had to lol at this, honestly.

Tesla is not an American system, it's a Tesla system. CCS was agreed on an industry association level ( which Tesla joined later, and half-assedly) and everyone else bar Chinese in China and Japanese in Japan are moving to CCS.

GM uses CCS in their electric cars and it's pretty much a given that Ford and FCA will also follow suit.

CCS can also be scalated further than supercharger (hence the bulkier pins and general look) but when you design a standard longevity is a major requirement.

Just checking in to see if this is still the Official Dakka Tesla Advertising and PR thread. I see that it still is.

I will note that the general attitude of the pro-Tesla posters here is remarkably similar to what I have encountered in my investigations into the possibility of buying an EV in the UK. Everywhere you go you have to wade through piles of comments from Tesla supporters reacting to every last piece of criticism of their beloved brand, or even praise for a rival. Just yesterday I was watching a video from a British car magazine about the best EVs you can buy and the comments section was completely overtaken by Tesla fanboys demanding to know why the Model 3 wasn't on the list (hint: it's not available in the UK yet).

My own continuing investigation has shown that Tesla is possibly losing its place as the best EV on the market. Other cars now exist with very similar ranges and the non-Tesla charging infrastructure in many parts of Europe is now approaching practical usefulness. You have Jaguar (and soon Audi) competing at the top end of the market with Tesla and still being much cheaper, and in the middle where the Model 3 will sit the Kona and e-Niro match or exceed the Tesla's range while also leveraging the existing servicing and repair facilities those bigger car brands can take advantage of.

To be fair, you are going to have a difficult time convincing someone that the not-insignificant chunk of money they have just laid out on a car was not for the best possible vehicle one can buy.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
If the US system was deliberately designed to be inferior as you claim, then it's probably a good thing it's not been adopted elsewhere.

Your reading comprehension is amazing.

I just read the words you wrote :

CCS was designed by ICE companies that did not want EVs, also to conflict with Tesla and make use of the J-1772 connector which had carefully been made to NOT support high power charging

mind you, it looks like CCS is being used in the EU, so your comment I was replying to seems to be inaccurate and thus my attempt at a cheap joke has fallen flat.

jouso wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

CCS was designed by ICE companies that did not want EVs, also to conflict with Tesla and make use of the J-1772 connector which had carefully been made to NOT support high power charging AND be delayed past when Tesla actually had to start selling cars. Europe went their own way to intentionally NOT be compatible with US systems (that were already in place) as a protectionist move to make it harder for American companies to sell in Europe.

Had to lol at this, honestly.

Tesla is not an American system, it's a Tesla system. CCS was agreed on an industry association level ( which Tesla joined later, and half-assedly) and everyone else bar Chinese in China and Japanese in Japan are moving to CCS.

GM uses CCS in their electric cars and it's pretty much a given that Ford and FCA will also follow suit.

CCS can also be scalated further than supercharger (hence the bulkier pins and general look) but when you design a standard longevity is a major requirement.

CSS (which again is inferior) was agreed to by a bunch of companies truly interested in continuing to make ICE cars and hamstring EV rollout. Teslas system was built from the ground up to support the EV market. I'd really love to see some kind of proof that CCS is more scalable than Tesla, just because the connector is giant and hidious doesn't mean its any better. Tesla V2 superchargers are already more powerful than CSS and Tesla V3 chargers are even more powerful still. Case in point the V3 powercord is actually thinner than the V2.

Thats pretty nice looking vs this monstrosity


That looks like when the USSR would make some sad attempt at copying US tech and claim reliability just because it was bigger and bulkier.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
If the US system was deliberately designed to be inferior as you claim, then it's probably a good thing it's not been adopted elsewhere.

Your reading comprehension is amazing.

I just read the words you wrote :

CCS was designed by ICE companies that did not want EVs, also to conflict with Tesla and make use of the J-1772 connector which had carefully been made to NOT support high power charging

mind you, it looks like CCS is being used in the EU, so your comment I was replying to seems to be inaccurate and thus my attempt at a cheap joke has fallen flat.

You read them poorly. Where did I say CCS is not being used in the EU or The US? Teslas Supercharging system is the more capable system of all three, no matter what connector you are using.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:
Just checking in to see if this is still the Official Dakka Tesla Advertising and PR thread. I see that it still is.

I will note that the general attitude of the pro-Tesla posters here is remarkably similar to what I have encountered in my investigations into the possibility of buying an EV in the UK. Everywhere you go you have to wade through piles of comments from Tesla supporters reacting to every last piece of criticism of their beloved brand, or even praise for a rival. Just yesterday I was watching a video from a British car magazine about the best EVs you can buy and the comments section was completely overtaken by Tesla fanboys demanding to know why the Model 3 wasn't on the list (hint: it's not available in the UK yet).

My own continuing investigation has shown that Tesla is possibly losing its place as the best EV on the market. Other cars now exist with very similar ranges and the non-Tesla charging infrastructure in many parts of Europe is now approaching practical usefulness. You have Jaguar (and soon Audi) competing at the top end of the market with Tesla and still being much cheaper, and in the middle where the Model 3 will sit the Kona and e-Niro match or exceed the Tesla's range while also leveraging the existing servicing and repair facilities those bigger car brands can take advantage of.

I mean, this is pretty typical car talk. Try going to a Mustang vs Camaro argument, this is actually quite civil in comparison.

Cool points though, you let me know when someone has better range or performance than a Tesla though, ill be more than happy to have a look.....but it will be some time in future for sure. I'm aslo not sure where you are getting that the Jaguar or Audi will be cheaper. Possibly in Europe but even vs the more expensive Model Y the price comparison is not looking good for the competition, and again the performance numbers of the Y should still be better than what you are seeing from the others.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-y-audi-e-tron-jaguar-i-pace-comparison/

" The Tesla Model Y's biggest advantage will be its affordable price, which will be as low as $48,200 (including a $1,200 destination fee) when the Long-Range rear-wheel-drive model launches next fall. That's set to fall to as little as $39,000 (before destination) when the Standard Range model arrives in spring 2021. On the other hand, the priciest Performance variant will cost $61,200 after destination.

Those prices are extremely competitive when compared with the Model Y's rivals. The Polestar 2, for instance, is set to start at $55,000, the Audi E-Tron will be $75,795 with destination, The Jaguar I-Pace starts at $70,525. No price has yet been confirmed for the Mercedes-Benz EQC, but a figure around $70,000 is expected."

It's a law of physics that a wider conductor has lower resistance than a narrower one, and produces less waste heat and can sustain a higher current.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's a law of physics that a wider conductor has lower resistance than a narrower one, and produces less waste heat and can sustain a higher current.

Sure thats physics.....but thats not the only factor...lets have a look shall we.



Ill grant that this is a bit dated, but not so much. But the big bulky guys here were not faster than the nice slim package of the V2 Tesla charger either.

Um...who cares?

SCOTTY CARES!

 Andrew1975 wrote:


. I'd really love to see some kind of proof that CCS is more scalable than Tesla, just because the connector is giant and hidious doesn't mean its any better.

Tesla v3 superchargers with liquid cooled cables charge up to 250kw, CCS liquid cooled chargers now charge up to 350kw with the fastest currently deployed chargers (some of them in the US, too). There are more 350kw chargers in use than v3 SCs, too (a single location so far).

And the connector can still go as far as 450kw while the Tesla is pretty much maxed out.

https://insideevs.com/news/341554/fastcharge-pumps-over-400-kw-of-juice-into-prototype-porsche/

 Kilkrazy wrote:
SCOTTY CARES!

Beam me up Scotty!

jouso wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:


. I'd really love to see some kind of proof that CCS is more scalable than Tesla, just because the connector is giant and hidious doesn't mean its any better.

Tesla v3 superchargers with liquid cooled cables charge up to 250kw, CCS liquid cooled chargers now charge up to 350kw with the fastest currently deployed chargers (some of them in the US, too). There are more 350kw chargers in use than v3 SCs, too (a single location so far).

And the connector can still go as far as 450kw while the Tesla is pretty much maxed out.

https://insideevs.com/news/341554/fastcharge-pumps-over-400-kw-of-juice-into-prototype-porsche/

I do love how you post an article and then make up your own facts for it. Nowhere in this article does it say that The Tesla charger is maxed out. It appears there are exactly one of these CSS chargers and its not doing so well.
https://insideevs.com/news/342427/update-electrify-america-shuts-down-all-150-350-kw-fast-chargers-over-safety-issue/
It could be back on line by now, but I couldn't find anything.


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 Kilkrazy wrote:
SCOTTY CARES!

 Andrew1975 wrote:

Cool points though, you let me know when someone has better range or performance than a Tesla though, ill be more than happy to have a look.....but it will be some time in future for sure. I'm aslo not sure where you are getting that the Jaguar or Audi will be cheaper. Possibly in Europe but even vs the more expensive Model Y the price comparison is not looking good for the competition, and again the performance numbers of the Y should still be better than what you are seeing from the others.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-y-audi-e-tron-jaguar-i-pace-comparison/

" The Tesla Model Y's biggest advantage will be its affordable price, which will be as low as $48,200 (including a $1,200 destination fee) when the Long-Range rear-wheel-drive model launches next fall. That's set to fall to as little as $39,000 (before destination) when the Standard Range model arrives in spring 2021. On the other hand, the priciest Performance variant will cost $61,200 after destination.

Those prices are extremely competitive when compared with the Model Y's rivals. The Polestar 2, for instance, is set to start at $55,000, the Audi E-Tron will be $75,795 with destination, The Jaguar I-Pace starts at $70,525. No price has yet been confirmed for the Mercedes-Benz EQC, but a figure around $70,000 is expected."

The Model Y isn't what they're competing against, and likely won't be available until at least 2021 anyway. They're competing against the Model X. I'm genuinely confused why you'd compare to the Model Y unless it was just to make the Tesla look better. You might as well compare the cost of a Honda Civic to an Aston Martin - they're completely different cars. The range is similar (slightly longer for the Tesla) but the Jaguar is currently over £20,000 cheaper in the UK and just over $15,000 cheaper in the US.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:


. I'd really love to see some kind of proof that CCS is more scalable than Tesla, just because the connector is giant and hidious doesn't mean its any better.

Tesla v3 superchargers with liquid cooled cables charge up to 250kw, CCS liquid cooled chargers now charge up to 350kw with the fastest currently deployed chargers (some of them in the US, too). There are more 350kw chargers in use than v3 SCs, too (a single location so far).

And the connector can still go as far as 450kw while the Tesla is pretty much maxed out.

https://insideevs.com/news/341554/fastcharge-pumps-over-400-kw-of-juice-into-prototype-porsche/

I do love how you post an article and then make up your own facts for it. Nowhere in this article does it say that The Tesla charger is maxed out. It appears there are exactly one of these CSS chargers and its not doing so well.
https://insideevs.com/news/342427/update-electrify-america-shuts-down-all-150-350-kw-fast-chargers-over-safety-issue/
It could be back on line by now, but I couldn't find anything.

Of course they are back online after the cables were changed by the supplier. But it turns out EA are not the only 350kw chargers in the US.

Just EA has 10 locations.
https://insideevs.com/news/339156/electrify-america-installs-first-10-ultra-fast-charging-stations/

There's EVgo
https://insideevs.com/news/341596/evgo-launches-350-kw-ultra-fast-charging-station-between-la-vegas/

And of course outside of the US.

UK
https://insideevs.com/news/345811/fastned-opens-its-first-350-kw-charging-station-in-the-uk/

Norway
(Oslo-Stavanger corridor is fully served by 350kw chargers)
https://www.elbil24.no/nyheter/storslatt-apning-av-ladekorridor/70962279

Germany
https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/germany-gets-its-first-350kw-ev-charging-station

While Tesla still has the single v3 demo charger which is closed to the grand public.

And yes, cooling the cable is pretty much the last lever to get extra charging speeds. Once you get there you know the pins are pretty much maxed. They might, maybe, with better cooling or changing the pin materials get as far up as 300 but the laws of physics are pretty tough on that one. Either more pins (which is the apparently what Tesla will be doing with the Semi megacharger if it ever comes to work) or thicker pins, which is what CCS did.

In any case here is a very good reason on why an industry-wide standard is always a good thing. On one hand you have Tesla doing things their way, on the other side there's everyone else. Doesn't really matter who makes what, because ultimately everyone benefits from more and faster chargers.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Where did I say CCS is not being used in the EU or The US?

I never claimed you said CCS wasn't being used in the US. However, the structure of your paragragh implied to me that Tesla's system, CCS and CHAdeMo were all being used in the US. You then said that the EU was implementing a different system to that developed in the USA (the implication there being that you meant CCS).

The hard truth of the charger battle basically comes down to this, the problem today is that the 3 fast charging standards were developed for different purposes. CHAdeMO was designed as a urban backup charger for those rare occasions when you get a little far from home and need a little extra juice to get back. Tesla's standard was designed to be a small, clean connector that can handle everything from 120volt 8amps, 1 KW AC to 250 KW DC Superchargers. CCS was designed by ICE companies that did not want EVs, also to conflict with Tesla and make use of the J-1772 connector which had carefully been made to NOT support high power charging AND be delayed past when Tesla actually had to start selling cars. Europe went their own way to intentionally NOT be compatible with US systems (that were already in place) as a protectionist move to make it harder for American companies to sell in Europe.

(emphasis mine). Since CHAdeMO is Japanese and Tesla are using a proprietary closed system, the only on left for the EU to not be comaptible with, based on your words, is CCS.

I drove a hybrid for 11 years. Other than some factory recalls (4, I think), I never had a mechanical problem. They paid for the recall work, in each case.

I got a new car in March, but I went with Honda CRV. I wanted something a bit larger as we have been going on more road trips.

I considered another hybrid and even full on electric. In the end, since I keep a car for at least 8 years, I think that 8 more years of the electric car industry picking a fething system they can agree on (Betamax vs VHS) and several more years of infrastructure growth (more charging stations acrosss the US), and I will be more comfortable making the switch to electric.

I’m all for it. Not for the environment, mind you. I don’t have kids, I got mine, feth the environment. I would do it to save on gas.