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Fair point! You are right its giving GW their money. I'd say paying GW for their exceptionally good models is fair. I would still do that today even though I have heavy disdain for their game systems.
The problem is, you might proxy say, nighthaunt for any other undead easily, but proxying golden boys is a bit harder, and good luck finding another game that has flying naval boats as an army choice. For better or worse, they have zany fantasy market cornered. Which again, is fine, but I wish there was one team handling every book instead of this mix of concerned parents making conservative books and caffeinated teens making cool books, as you said.
On the yet another hand, it's whatever, it's just toy soldiers in the end.
I have a fairly long list of negatives on the ruleset that will keep me away until they are resolved. One of them is the balance disparities. I really do not like games where I lose because I liked the wrong models.
Consistency and making all books either off the wall crazy or all books tempered and middle of the road would go a long way in bringing my attention back.
The stormcast I have seen used in the paladin army in KOW. Also the flying naval boats may be something Conquest explores as one of their upcoming factions is the City States which are supposed to be centered around a steam punk theme.
I use my chaos collection for the northern alliance in KOW.
I'm genuinely curious why you see some books that are middle of the road (i.e. well-balanced, so "bad" because it has no crazy combos) and then some that are off the wall. I'm not convinced that there are two teams like Auticus thinks, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was that certain people write certain books, since it seems to be that they write books in isolation without collaborating with the rest of the team, and seem to have a pretty tight deadline for books which almost certainly eats into writing and testing times.
So for example, the middle of the road book might be written by Jervis (not sure if he still actually writes books or just heads up the team, but let's assume he does), but the crazy good book is written by Ben Johnson. That might explain why since Jervis is mostly a narrative guy who wants to give you solid options that aren't too nuts, but Ben is a tournament player so wants killer combos. If they never communicate about how rules sound, then it's easy to see why the Jervis battletome is good all around but has no OP combos and the Ben Johnson book has that one or two "this is the competitive option" choices. In an ideal world, it would be a collaborative effort so each book is roughly the same power level.
Of course, since they stopped saying who wrote books (for a valid reason), we don't have a clue. But it's too frequent to be a coincidence, and there has to be something going on as to why almost every other book (with some exceptions) has some nutty combo. If they divided up the workload it would explain that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/14 20:05:40
Wayniac wrote: Apparently 17 Bonereapers players (probably all Petrifex) for the LVO Champs event...
But isn't LVO the biggest or 2nd biggest AOS event? I know Adepticon had 284 players last year, if LVO had 300 17 out of 300 is is only about 6%, is that really honestly that high for an army that is suppose to be OP at one of the largest events?
Stux wrote: Dankhold Troggbosses arent that big. Only a bit bigger than Rockguts really.
Behemoths have to have enough wounds to justify braketing, and Dankholds arent quite there either. If I remember correctly there aren't any Behemoths below 14 wounds.
You remember wrong. At least as far as Gloomspite stuff goes.
Looks like Changehost (Tzeentch) brought out alot of twitter butthurts. Almost all of it entirely valid as that particular sub-army is a NPE. I think the Heat tourney at WHW had a turn 2 concession on their stream. I hope they(GW) are embarrassed and the Tzeentch FAQ fixes the issues. And TO’s get serious about some sort of comp, at the least disavowing army books that are pre-faq. Both open up their own can of worms, but that might be worth it.
Also, at a glance, it seems like a poor showing by OBR across events. Fully expected Petrifex to run the shows, but I think people underestimate that you still need some finesse and tactical acumen to take them next level.
With that said, great weekend for AoS and the game in general(in my view). At my local, AoS had a good showing and globally there was like 5-6 major events. Still wrapping my head around some of the crazy lists that did decently at all of these events. Alot of noise about Tzeentch(again, valid) but overall a great weekend.
And since we’re at a point where everyone’s book is more or less up to date, my wish for GHB 2020 Is that it should focus less on points this year and give us some rewrites of the battletome subfactions. Tone down the auto-include subfactions and buff the less powerful subfactions to move toward a bit more parity. That seems to be where the game is having the most problems at present. And give battalions a strong looking at as well.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/27 14:19:31
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
nels1031 wrote: Looks like Changehost (Tzeentch) brought out alot of twitter butthurts. Almost all of it entirely valid as that particular sub-army is a NPE. I think the Heat tourney at WHW had a turn 2 concession on their stream. I hope they(GW) are embarrassed and the Tzeentch FAQ fixes the issues. And TO’s get serious about some sort of comp, at the least disavowing army books that are pre-faq. Both open up their own can of worms, but that might be worth it.
Also, at a glance, it seems like a poor showing by OBR across events. Fully expected Petrifex to run the shows, but I think people underestimate that you still need some finesse and tactical acumen to take them next level.
With that said, great weekend for AoS and the game in general(in my view). At my local, AoS had a good showing and globally there was like 5-6 major events. Still wrapping my head around some of the crazy lists that did decently at all of these events. Alot of noise about Tzeentch(again, valid) but overall a great weekend.
And since we’re at a point where everyone’s book is more or less up to date, my wish for GHB 2020 Is that it should focus less on points this year and give us some rewrites of the battletome subfactions. Tone down the auto-include subfactions and buff the less powerful subfactions to move toward a bit more parity. That seems to be where the game is having the most problems at present.
The problem with them is they can deal a bit to much damage turn 1 and turn 2, as soon as you counter deploy them and make sure they can not hit you hard enough, you instantly win, but if you can not do that they instantly win. So mid tier tables don't know what to do, and many players didn't have a counter for it.
They are very strong, but its a 1 trick pony (well 2 tricks its 2 strong lists) and each list has a very clear way to shut it down and counter it. Its jsut that NO ONE was playing any of those style lists at the big 3 events this past weekend. And Changehost Flamers counters OBR, so its just a lot of OBR and walking horde players that fought against changehost that are QQing (and i agree b.c to many armies cant counter them). Changehost Flamers counters anyone that sets up hordes of dudes tightly. But any army that Outflanks/Deepstrikes their important units onto the board, has Pre-game movements, and just cheap throw away bubbles of low model count guys completely counters them.
Change host still needs to Teleport outside of 9" of you and they need to keep the Exalted near the Flamers (Wholly in 9") so the 6-9 man Flamer and the Exalted unit must teleport together taking up both teleports of the Changehost, and it will kill off any unit it shoots at 100% for sure, maybe 2 units. But if they can only hit 1-2 50-80pt throw away units... who cares. And this is where OBR did so poorly at the events, they had 20+ man blocks with no bubble wrap b.c a 3+ re-roll with an after save is normally good enough for anything, but its not good enough against 50 hits at -1 for D3, even witha 4+ re-roll save (still cant re-roll the 3's remember) 15 wounds at least still go through, thats 15D3 from 1 unit shooting you. That is enough to kill off a 20man unit, its enough to kill a 30man after the Exalted shoots too (he is getting on average 3D3 wounds in first). When a full unit of OBR is wiped turn 1, and then the other is wiped turn 2, very hard to win against that.
As a CoS/BoC player i am not that scared of them, i'm honestly more worried about OBR b.c i now i can kill 40 wounds on a 5+ save after taking all that damage, IDK if i can kill 100 wounds of a 3+ re-roll save with an after save in time to before game ends and take objectives.
EDIT: They don't need a points change to Flamers, and Changehost doesn't need a rules change. Flamers just needs less attacks IMO, 1 less for each model means they are 2 hits less over all, when a unit of 6 is loosing 5-6 hits thats a very strong change. Now Changehost could go up 20-40pts but in the end of the day that isn't changing anything.
Also Darkfire Daemonrift needs to be changed to say that only StD wizards buffs its damage
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/01/27 14:33:16
Petrifax are strong but have difficulty actually topping a tourney because chances are at some point they will run into Skaven/Slaanesh/FEC/Tzeentch and get ripped apart. Tough luck for everyone else though.
New Tzeentch is all sorts of broken but I haven't met anyone who expected otherwise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/27 17:26:12
NinthMusketeer wrote: Petrifax are strong but have difficulty actually topping a tourney because chances are at some point they will run into Skaven/Slaanesh/FEC/Tzeentch and get ripped apart. Tough luck for everyone else though.
It isn't quite so simple. The people abandoning old fotm armies sell them off, the people buying them are not buying from GW. To some extent GW is simply getting the same amount of sales from different people. Meanwhile anyone who leaves the game because of this system is a 100% loss.
Plus from what I've seen "flavour of the month" customers tend to not only fill the3rd party market, but also buy out of it to get their new short term army cheaper. The only ones that really make out of it are commission painters hired to repaint those armies into a single colour for the tabletop.
So its not even a customerbase that is feeding GW heavy sales, instead its more recyling the 3rd party market.
and agreed that most people don't sell off armies just because they perform poorly for a period of time. They are more likely to hold onto them and perhaps start another, but many might just get burned out on one bad army and move on.
Better balance has always been a weakness of GW even when its been show that casual steps toward a better game level balance actually boosts sales. Just look how 40K sales went insane when GW introduced the index system at the start of a new edition; then reinforced it with about 1.5 years worth of new Codex to update every army. The result was a huge boom in sales that sent GW's demand so high that they had a production shortfall.
Contrast that to the past when you could wait years for better, updated rules.
nels1031 wrote: Looks like Changehost (Tzeentch) brought out alot of twitter butthurts. Almost all of it entirely valid as that particular sub-army is a NPE. I think the Heat tourney at WHW had a turn 2 concession on their stream. I hope they(GW) are embarrassed and the Tzeentch FAQ fixes the issues. And TO’s get serious about some sort of comp, at the least disavowing army books that are pre-faq. Both open up their own can of worms, but that might be worth it.
Also, at a glance, it seems like a poor showing by OBR across events. Fully expected Petrifex to run the shows, but I think people underestimate that you still need some finesse and tactical acumen to take them next level.
With that said, great weekend for AoS and the game in general(in my view). At my local, AoS had a good showing and globally there was like 5-6 major events. Still wrapping my head around some of the crazy lists that did decently at all of these events. Alot of noise about Tzeentch(again, valid) but overall a great weekend.
And since we’re at a point where everyone’s book is more or less up to date, my wish for GHB 2020 Is that it should focus less on points this year and give us some rewrites of the battletome subfactions. Tone down the auto-include subfactions and buff the less powerful subfactions to move toward a bit more parity. That seems to be where the game is having the most problems at present.
The problem with them is they can deal a bit to much damage turn 1 and turn 2, as soon as you counter deploy them and make sure they can not hit you hard enough, you instantly win, but if you can not do that they instantly win. So mid tier tables don't know what to do, and many players didn't have a counter for it.
They are very strong, but its a 1 trick pony (well 2 tricks its 2 strong lists) and each list has a very clear way to shut it down and counter it. Its jsut that NO ONE was playing any of those style lists at the big 3 events this past weekend. And Changehost Flamers counters OBR, so its just a lot of OBR and walking horde players that fought against changehost that are QQing (and i agree b.c to many armies cant counter them). Changehost Flamers counters anyone that sets up hordes of dudes tightly. But any army that Outflanks/Deepstrikes their important units onto the board, has Pre-game movements, and just cheap throw away bubbles of low model count guys completely counters them.
Change host still needs to Teleport outside of 9" of you and they need to keep the Exalted near the Flamers (Wholly in 9") so the 6-9 man Flamer and the Exalted unit must teleport together taking up both teleports of the Changehost, and it will kill off any unit it shoots at 100% for sure, maybe 2 units. But if they can only hit 1-2 50-80pt throw away units... who cares. And this is where OBR did so poorly at the events, they had 20+ man blocks with no bubble wrap b.c a 3+ re-roll with an after save is normally good enough for anything, but its not good enough against 50 hits at -1 for D3, even witha 4+ re-roll save (still cant re-roll the 3's remember) 15 wounds at least still go through, thats 15D3 from 1 unit shooting you. That is enough to kill off a 20man unit, its enough to kill a 30man after the Exalted shoots too (he is getting on average 3D3 wounds in first). When a full unit of OBR is wiped turn 1, and then the other is wiped turn 2, very hard to win against that.
As a CoS/BoC player i am not that scared of them, i'm honestly more worried about OBR b.c i now i can kill 40 wounds on a 5+ save after taking all that damage, IDK if i can kill 100 wounds of a 3+ re-roll save with an after save in time to before game ends and take objectives.
EDIT: They don't need a points change to Flamers, and Changehost doesn't need a rules change. Flamers just needs less attacks IMO, 1 less for each model means they are 2 hits less over all, when a unit of 6 is loosing 5-6 hits thats a very strong change. Now Changehost could go up 20-40pts but in the end of the day that isn't changing anything.
Also Darkfire Daemonrift needs to be changed to say that only StD wizards buffs its damage
I agree with your premise but a couple things. Mortek can Reroll saves that will fail due to rend as it says Reroll save rolls not failed save rolls.
They can't do that at all against shooting though. Further strengthening your OBR does not like facing Changehost argument.
Just because Paper exists doesn't make the Scissors players enjoy games against Rock though.
It makes things interesting in these big events as you have a more varied final podium but I maintain that this kind of disparity is awful for casual environments and especially new player retention.
I know as someone who was trying to get back into the game having Petrifex as my main opposition really soured my return. Though they have their weaknesses my armies aren't well suited to exploiting them and the invalidation of all melee choices that can't crack Mortek (almost all of them) and the spectre of the Crawler invalidating squishy heroes made it feel like the OBR player was more in control of my listbuilding than I was.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
What's the general consensus on Tzeentch, anyway? I haven't seen it discussed much since it was released. Is it just Changehost that's OP? I think Guild of Summoners got a lot of attention at first, but it didn't seem to take long for people to see that multiple Lords of Change don't really play well together. I'm working toward a Pyrofane Cult list myself.
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
Right, and thats a good point about the army building it self. Maybe look at different units and combos, it might have some really good ways to play. I personally was looking at Stalarch Lords? (Run and charge) you can also Retreat and charge, something that i love. I know everyone says it isnt as good, but looking at the results of recent events, maybe it is.
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EnTyme wrote: What's the general consensus on Tzeentch, anyway? I haven't seen it discussed much since it was released. Is it just Changehost that's OP? I think Guild of Summoners got a lot of attention at first, but it didn't seem to take long for people to see that multiple Lords of Change don't really play well together. I'm working toward a Pyrofane Cult list myself.
It has a couple very strong lists that if you can not counter them then you have a very limited chance to win do to the amount of damage it can do. Its not Changehost that is doing it, it helps but really its the Flamers + Exalted that hits on 2+ re-rolling 1's with -1 for D3 (they actually hit on 1+, so they can negate a -1 to hit basically). a unit of 9 with a Exalted teleporting is Bad for sure, but if you bubble wrap, have pre-game movements, or DSing and they can only kill chaff units, then you can counter them very well. Its just many armies or for now lists are not able to do that.
The other list is Horror spam with Endless spells, it can do a lot of damage and tie up objectives for a long time.
Expect Flamers to get nerf a bit, and maybe the Darkfire Daemonrift. Also Gaunt summoner might go up 20pts ish.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/27 21:53:19
Mortek guard don’t have to reroll all saves (failed or passed)
It says they may reroll saves.
Doesn’t specify which ones there so that’s down to the player.
Would be a completely pointless rule that does nothing if that were the case.
EnTyme wrote: What's the general consensus on Tzeentch, anyway? I haven't seen it discussed much since it was released. Is it just Changehost that's OP? I think Guild of Summoners got a lot of attention at first, but it didn't seem to take long for people to see that multiple Lords of Change don't really play well together. I'm working toward a Pyrofane Cult list myself.
Many sorts of overpowered, with many ways to turn battles one-sided against tier 2 or lower, and even against some tier 1 armies. However much of the player base was more or less expecting such a thing to occur; looking at all of AoS' history Tzeentch has been the best army in the game, still having decent tourney performance even at it's worst. There were no hints of the Fate Dice mechanic changing and magic overall is strong, so the two pillars of Tzeentch's strength were known to be intact.
I think this predictability has made things easier to accept for many, and also less likely to be raised as a notable topic of conversation.
I think Tzeentch has the advantage against mostly melee armies who don't have teleport options and will suffer the most vs. other gunlines as everything is fragile. Turn order will also matter as Tzeentch needs to alpha strike to win.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 16:31:21
I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains
Just looking at it on paper, the adding of loads of new models onto the table from the Tzeentch Horror splitting looks like it might be a touch sanity draining to play with/against. Has this been the actual experience? I haven't played much AoS outside of Hinterlands, so I don't know how it compares to usual summoning shenanigans.
The Horror splits are certainly very strong right now. However, they have one weakness that the usual summoning shenanigans don't have.
Horrors typically split in the Tzeentch Player's combat phase, or the opponents other phases. It's recycling bodies in to the same unit, as opposed to making new units like other normal Summons. I think the way to deal with Horrors is to have enough damage to inflict deadly Battleshocks on to multiple units.
A unit of 30 Horrors will have 150 models in it potentially, but only 30 at any given time, and if you kill say 30 of them in one turn, the battle-shock will be 17+d6(30 die - 10bravery -3 for unit size) running away. Force them to use their Destiny Dice early, or CP to auto-pass morale so they can't use them for other things.
But yeah, you're correct in seeing Horrors as being very powerful.
Edit: Horror model count was wrong. God that's so many wounds to chew through
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 17:44:59
The new horrors have to be placed in coherency, too, so another strategy could be to surround the horrors in melee. They could be susceptible to hordes in that way. I'd also caution against relying on Battleshock since a roll of a "1" brings back 1d6 Horrors. There's a reason Tzeentch players don't mind rolling 1s on Destiny Dice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 20:07:05
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
I wouldn't say that it's really relying on battleshock, since typically the way to trigger brutal battleshocks on hordes is to do a ton of damage to them. How do you remove a unit on an objective? Do a ton of damage to them. The Tzeentch Player may roll one or two 1's on their Destiny Dice in a game and use those for their battleshocks sure, but you have to do the damage anyways.
Also, if playing against Pink Horrors, you need to keep the Tzeentch Player honest. If there are no more Pink Horrors in the unit they lose a lot of abilities. Horrors only get their 6+ FNP when allocating to Pinks. Pinks are the only ones who get the Banner that passes morale and returns d6 models when you roll a 1 on battleshock. Horrors are no longer wizards once they're down to 8 Pink models in the unit.
Not to make it sound like you need to watch for cheating, it's just that Horrors have a TONNE of rules. It's easy for the player to get distracted and think "Horrors are wizards, horrors have 6+ fnp, horrors return d6 lost models on a bs roll of 1" instead of remembering that those are tied to specific models, the Pinks.
Very true. You also have to allocate wounds to Pinks first, so they lose a lot of abilities quickly, then it's just a matter of flooding the unit with damage. Now that I think of it, enveloping a unit of Pink Horrors and flooding them with wounds would be a really effective strategy. If you do it right, they won't be able to place all the Blues, and you've effectively done two free wounds for each one you successfully block from deploying.
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
That relies on the Tzeentch player positioning to allow it though. A smart player will overlap and string units such that no one unit can be surrounded, and when the pinks are killed the blues will end up behind a different unit to prevent focusing. It also creates options for the Tzeentch player to use respawns to string the unit onto an objective, pull other units into melee, etc. It also means that attacking pinks on an objective could make it even harder to gain control since there will then be twice as many models.
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D6Damager wrote: I think Tzeentch has the advantage against mostly melee armies who don't have teleport options and will suffer the most vs. other gunlines as everything is fragile. Turn order will also matter as Tzeentch needs to alpha strike to win.
At the moment Tzeentch is the best army in the game, we will see if the FAQ knocks them down to 'merely' tier-1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 21:40:18
It looks like GW thought of that. The replacement models have very specific rules to prevent chaining:
"Set up additional models one at a time within 1" of the position that the slain model had occupied. The additional model can only be set up within 3" of an enemy unit if the position that the slain model had occupied or any other models from the slain model's unit are within 3" of that enemy unit. If you cannot set up the additional models in this way, they are removed from play (they do not count as being slain).
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
You're right, the chaining is WAY limited compared to other factions. But it still allows for a decent distance; 2" from placement (1" away plus 1" from the base) which can be used again if said blue dies*, plus pile-in. However in hindsight my above post is misleading about the potential without the context of that rule so thank you for correcting me.
*Assuming all of the pinks die, as noted by another poster if that doesn't happen there are bigger fish to fry in the form of fate-dice-1 for battleshock.
Quick question on Pink splitting in reference to damage and such.
Does damage against the Pinks spill over into blues after the Pinks have been removed? As all damage is done/allocated after all attacks are done, if there are 20 Pinks, and you do 50 damage, will that extra 30 damage hit the blues too?
I just want to make sure as there are several Tzeentch players in town and I want to know how to try and combat this new build.
PourSpelur wrote: It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts