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Xenomancers wrote: I'm not sure what kind of mental gymnastics you are trying to pull here but I'll just say this.
It is possible for more than one aspect of the game to be problematic.
Certainly. Probable even. Certain, in 40ks case.
Is it problematic that you can turn 1 charge with super charged units pumped up with CP like tzangoors or shinning spears ect? OFC it is. It mandates that you have loads of chaff to stop your good units from being deleted with opponents CP spells and gimmicks.
Your premise is fine, but your evidence shows why these conversations always go sideways. Shining Spears buffed to hell are a problem. But they are not super charged via CP - it's Powers *and* CP. They basically just get LQR and maybe Command Reroll. The double movement, double fighting, 5++, etc all come from elsewhere.
How can we reasonably discuss anything when half the comments are totally offbase?
Is it problematic that a Castellan and infantry is really undercosted. OFC it is.
Nobody argued otherwise.
The problem is you're arguing "Castellan + Infantry are OP" as a reason why "Castellan sans infantry is not OP" is wrong.
Is it problematic that armies gernerate CP based on cheap troops and hq's? OFC it is. It mandates that soup will always be better than mono.
Now you're practically just repeating yourself. However, while this point supports Soup being better than Mono, it does not mandate it - there are times (and armies) where that simply isn't the case, despite it's benefits. But that's not what anyone was saying.
At the end of the day, refuting "Castellan sans infantry isn't OP" by screaming "But my Castellan + Infantry is, therefore YOURE WRONG!" isn't helping.
I'm not sure what kind of mental gymnastics you are trying to pull here but I'll just say this.
It is possible for more than one aspect of the game to be problematic.
Is it problematic that you can turn 1 charge with super charged units pumped up with CP like tzangoors or shinning spears ect? OFC it is. It mandates that you have loads of chaff to stop your good units from being deleted with opponents CP spells and gimmicks.
Is it problematic that a Castellan and infantry is really undercosted. OFC it is.
Is it problematic that armies gernerate CP based on cheap troops and hq's? OFC it is. It mandates that soup will always be better than mono.
Bharring wrote: I have to admit, that's a much more creative "Pure Knight" list than I expected.
Bonus points if you `Knight` each individual Guardsman, maybe even give them each their own heraldry.
On a more serious note, how is this any different from the "typical" Knight list when discussing how good or bad a Castellan is in a *pure* Knight list?
Listen...Mono can not compete with allies....ESP not knights. There are too many turn 1 charge gimmicks in the game. You have to have some screening to protect auto charge turn 1 or you lose. IMO that isn't balanced ether but that is the main reason for loyal 32 in most list anyways. You have to have chaff to block out turn 1 gimmick charges. You literally can't win without it. The CP is nice but I could easily get 15 CP (only 2 less than my soup list) with a full knight list.
Some combination of a castellan 2 helverines + gallants and crusaders or maybe a warden. The reason that list loses is not CP - it can't take up space and gimmicks run it over. You see the power of 4 point models now? Gimmicks don't work when guardsmen are in the way.
Wow don't even know the codex knights can't break 12CP under 2k period
I was including the 3 CP for battle forged....
Automatically Appended Next Post: If a SS is worth 2 points....Every marine is overcosted at 13 and should probably be 11....So you are basically saying all marines should have 3++ saves. You know - that might help them be competitive choices.
Your still wrong as it's 12CP including the 3 for battle forged.
3 Gallants the cheapest way to 6CP is over 1000points so you can't have 6 gallants in a 2k list
1 Gallant and 2 Warglaives is over 675 so you that doesn't help.
I've never understood this argument?
"Also if a Castellen is so undercosted why do they not show up in pure knights list or renegade knights lists. "
In competitive play everyone is abusing the system. So why do you assume an army not abusing the system to beat one that is?
Imagine we pay points for models and get a baseline power level - with stratagems and spells and buffs expanding on that power level.
If we made it a math problem it might be easier to understand my argument.
Lets just say a Castellan has a power level (not the in game points alternative - more like DBZ) of 20 when similarly costed units have a power level of only 15.
So 20 > 15....no debate there. However power level 15 unit can shoot twice in 1 turn for CP and soup shenanigans. So now power level 15x2 = power level 30. 20<30.
This is basically what I am saying and I am not saying that the 2x power level stratagems for CP and powers are balanced ether.
20>15 always though. So if you are going to say mono knights you have to compare against other mono army. Otherwise you are deliberately slanting against the knight player.
I'm not sure what kind of mental gymnastics you are trying to pull here but I'll just say this.
It is possible for more than one aspect of the game to be problematic.
Is it problematic that you can turn 1 charge with super charged units pumped up with CP like tzangoors or shinning spears ect? OFC it is. It mandates that you have loads of chaff to stop your good units from being deleted with opponents CP spells and gimmicks.
Is it problematic that a Castellan and infantry is really undercosted. OFC it is.
Is it problematic that armies gernerate CP based on cheap troops and hq's? OFC it is. It mandates that soup will always be better than mono.
Bharring wrote: I have to admit, that's a much more creative "Pure Knight" list than I expected.
Bonus points if you `Knight` each individual Guardsman, maybe even give them each their own heraldry.
On a more serious note, how is this any different from the "typical" Knight list when discussing how good or bad a Castellan is in a *pure* Knight list?
Listen...Mono can not compete with allies....ESP not knights. There are too many turn 1 charge gimmicks in the game. You have to have some screening to protect auto charge turn 1 or you lose. IMO that isn't balanced ether but that is the main reason for loyal 32 in most list anyways. You have to have chaff to block out turn 1 gimmick charges. You literally can't win without it. The CP is nice but I could easily get 15 CP (only 2 less than my soup list) with a full knight list.
Some combination of a castellan 2 helverines + gallants and crusaders or maybe a warden. The reason that list loses is not CP - it can't take up space and gimmicks run it over. You see the power of 4 point models now? Gimmicks don't work when guardsmen are in the way.
Wow don't even know the codex knights can't break 12CP under 2k period
I was including the 3 CP for battle forged....
Automatically Appended Next Post: If a SS is worth 2 points....Every marine is overcosted at 13 and should probably be 11....So you are basically saying all marines should have 3++ saves. You know - that might help them be competitive choices.
Your still wrong as it's 12CP including the 3 for battle forged.
3 Gallants the cheapest way to 6CP is over 1000points so you can't have 6 gallants in a 2k list
1 Gallant and 2 Warglaives is over 675 so you that doesn't help.
A detachment with 2 armigers and a knight gives you 3 CP.
Oh sorry I ment 12 - brain fart. So used to giving myself 3 CP for Gman being my warlord it auto calculated.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/26 16:40:45
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: I've never understood this argument?
"Also if a Castellen is so undercosted why do they not show up in pure knights list or renegade knights lists. "
That's because you're not reading what people are saying. This thread hasn't suggested that Castellans aren't OP because mono-Knight lists aren't winning. The claim is that Castellans, when in mono-Knight lists, are not OP. That's a *very* different claim. And one that rejects your quoted statement inherently. You need to reread the posts, if that's what you read.
Xenomancers wrote: I've never understood this argument?
"Also if a Castellen is so undercosted why do they not show up in pure knights list or renegade knights lists. "
That's because you're not reading what people are saying. This thread hasn't suggested that Castellans aren't OP because mono-Knight lists aren't winning. The claim is that Castellans, when in mono-Knight lists, are not OP. That's a *very* different claim. And one that rejects your quoted statement inherently. You need to reread the posts, if that's what you read.
Nothing in mono list is OP against soup...In what world is mono army facing soup? In a world that does not exist. Plus yes...There are several people claiming the Castellan is not OP on it's own.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
So your argument is that Castellans aren't "Not OP" in mono lists, because mono Knight lists aren't good enough to compete? Is that a serious argument?
As for the Castellan not being OP on it's own, how is a Castellan with the Loyal32 a Castellan "on it's own"?
It's probably a different kind of OP build, but aslong as the guard can make it un assualtable and feed it CP like a addict it's probably going to be more powered up that it's supposed to be and be balanced/costed for.
That said throwing 10 discounted CP into anything for 2-3 turns is pretty game breaking generally.
In the particular competitive build with a guard brigade raven is the go to. This build trashes the army trait because it doesn't get army trait in a SHAD. Tyranis knights with 6+ FNP against regular damage and zombification are even better in a difference army comp if they can complete a knight lance. Also the reroll all hits in CC house with bonkers +1 damage and +2 against super heavies is also REALLY good (forget it's name). Getting you knights some method of reroll 1's to hit in shooting is pretty important though. That is why I bring Gman (hes basically another Gallant and he buffs and gives me CP+regen) The reroll 1's on damage is far less important. Most knights do flat damage and it just some other bonus damage on your pidly guns and reroll of 1's to wound...That is a pretty steep price for reroll 1's to wound basically. For the same price I can bring a dead knight back to life and shoot at full power for 1 CP. Trust me. If you havn't seen it or had it done to you yet. Prepare to have your eyeballs sucked out of your face.
It's probably a different kind of OP build, but aslong as the guard can make it un assualtable and feed it CP like a addict it's probably going to be more powered up that it's supposed to be and be balanced/costed for.
That said throwing 10 discounted CP into anything for 2-3 turns is pretty game breaking generally.
Can you answer this question. Why should only guard have CP?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 17:00:54
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
In the particular competitive build with a guard brigade raven is the go to. This build trashes the army trait because it doesn't get army trait in a SHAD. Tyranis knights with 6+ FNP against regular damage and zombification are even better in a difference army comp if they can complete a knight lance. Also the reroll all hits in CC house with bonkers +1 damage and +2 against super heavies is also REALLY good (forget it's name). Getting you knights some method of reroll 1's to hit in shooting is pretty important though. That is why I bring Gman (hes basically another Gallant and he buffs and gives me CP+regen) The reroll 1's on damage is far less important. Most knights do flat damage and it just some other bonus damage on your pidly guns and reroll of 1's to wound...That is a pretty steep price for reroll 1's to wound basically. For the same price I can bring a dead knight back to life and shoot at full power for 1 CP. Trust me. If you havn't seen it or had it done to you yet. Prepare to have your eyeballs sucked out of your face.
It's probably a different kind of OP build, but aslong as the guard can make it un assualtable and feed it CP like a addict it's probably going to be more powered up that it's supposed to be and be balanced/costed for.
That said throwing 10 discounted CP into anything for 2-3 turns is pretty game breaking generally.
Can you answer this question. Why should only guard have CP?
They shouldn't that's the problem. If strategums are being recosted around everyone having the same CP, everyone needs to get the same CP.
A strategum is way more balanceable when some factions arn't paying 36 points for CP.
While spending them on strategums costed for CP costing a minimum of 175 points
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: So.... making guardsmen 6 ppm would probably help that problem, right?
Maybe though halfing the CP they generate from detachments rounding down would also work
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 17:06:05
Have you seen endless furry? Plus it's the combination of their shooting and CC. I typically table people with knights. I don't see why you think they don't shoot good.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: That is nice of you. You certainly can play them at 65 and no one can say a dang thing. It's like a 50/50 around here as to how people do it. Right now I'm just avoiding competitive play and having much more fun casual games and trying out my new space marine units.
Where I play, you play them at 115ppm or you don't get a game.
Xenomancers wrote: Have you seen endless furry? Plus it's the combination of their shooting and CC. I typically table people with knights. I don't see why you think they don't shoot good.
So your soup nonsence beats pure knights lists nit really shure how that makes knight's more broken, if anything it says even strong codex's need buffed against the power abuse cheese of soup lists.
Xenomancers wrote: Have you seen endless furry? Plus it's the combination of their shooting and CC. I typically table people with knights. I don't see why you think they don't shoot good.
So your soup nonsence beats pure knights lists nit really shure how that makes knight's more broken, if anything it says even strong codex's need buffed against the power abuse cheese of soup lists.
How about we fix the problem at it's core. Units should get actual comparable power level for their points. Stratagems of the same cost should have a similar level of effect. All armies have equal access to CP. No stratagems should cancel stratagems lol.
Knight are broken in concept. They are a skew list that is take all comers.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Have you seen endless furry? Plus it's the combination of their shooting and CC. I typically table people with knights. I don't see why you think they don't shoot good.
So your soup nonsence beats pure knights lists nit really shure how that makes knight's more broken, if anything it says even strong codex's need buffed against the power abuse cheese of soup lists.
How about we fix the problem at it's core. Units should get actual comparable power level for their points. Stratagems of the same cost should have a similar level of effect. All armies have equal access to CP. No stratagems should cancel stratagems lol.
Knight are broken in concept. They are a skew list that is take all comers.
All factions should have a counter strategem. Not none.
Xenomancers wrote: Have you seen endless furry? Plus it's the combination of their shooting and CC. I typically table people with knights. I don't see why you think they don't shoot good.
So your soup nonsence beats pure knights lists nit really shure how that makes knight's more broken, if anything it says even strong codex's need buffed against the power abuse cheese of soup lists.
How about we fix the problem at it's core. Units should get actual comparable power level for their points. Stratagems of the same cost should have a similar level of effect. All armies have equal access to CP. No stratagems should cancel stratagems lol.
Knight are broken in concept. They are a skew list that is take all comers.
So are most horde lists, heck even powerarmour spam lists are skewing the defensive profile into 1 profile to try and reduce the effectiveness of your opponents damage output, heck if you don't most armies have enough of almost every damage output to table you in 3 turns in 8th.
You move everyone to 1CP per 100 points and You can quite happily double the CP cost of all of the strategums as printed in the knights codex.
Xenomancers wrote: Have you seen endless furry? Plus it's the combination of their shooting and CC. I typically table people with knights. I don't see why you think they don't shoot good.
So your soup nonsence beats pure knights lists nit really shure how that makes knight's more broken, if anything it says even strong codex's need buffed against the power abuse cheese of soup lists.
How about we fix the problem at it's core. Units should get actual comparable power level for their points. Stratagems of the same cost should have a similar level of effect. All armies have equal access to CP. No stratagems should cancel stratagems lol.
Knight are broken in concept. They are a skew list that is take all comers.
A couple questions.
1) Why include "no stratagems should cancel stratagems" in a discussion on basic power level of stratagems? I'd figure that a "cancel" strat would be a basic thing you'd add, to avoid certain strategies that totally revolve around them. Like, in Magic Cards should there be no card that prevents another card from being played because that's fundamentally OP?
2) How are knights TAC? We've already demonstrated that we understand in this thread that they have inherent weaknesses to alpha strike and poor objective control by definition, unless you bring allies to give them those capabilities. Sure, they can kill all types of units, to varying degrees of effectiveness.
Are Daemons "broken in concept, a skew army that is TAC" because they all have invulns? Are custodes that, because everything is T5+ and multiwound? Or is that just a buzzword you threw on at the end there to try and make people nod along and say "mhm, it's not fair, they're not playing by the rules that pretty much nobody actually plays by"
You know what codexes are not "skew lists that are TAC" that are super fething strong? As in, they have light infantry, heavy infantry, light tanks, heavy tanks, superheavies, bikes, flyers, psykers, close combat units, shooting units, specialists, generalists, etc etc etc? CWE and Guard.
Does that make them not broken?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 18:02:40
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Xenomancers wrote: Have you seen endless furry? Plus it's the combination of their shooting and CC. I typically table people with knights. I don't see why you think they don't shoot good.
So your soup nonsence beats pure knights lists nit really shure how that makes knight's more broken, if anything it says even strong codex's need buffed against the power abuse cheese of soup lists.
How about we fix the problem at it's core. Units should get actual comparable power level for their points. Stratagems of the same cost should have a similar level of effect. All armies have equal access to CP. No stratagems should cancel stratagems lol.
Knight are broken in concept. They are a skew list that is take all comers.
All factions should have a counter strategem. Not none.
That is another option.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Have you seen endless furry? Plus it's the combination of their shooting and CC. I typically table people with knights. I don't see why you think they don't shoot good.
So your soup nonsence beats pure knights lists nit really shure how that makes knight's more broken, if anything it says even strong codex's need buffed against the power abuse cheese of soup lists.
How about we fix the problem at it's core. Units should get actual comparable power level for their points. Stratagems of the same cost should have a similar level of effect. All armies have equal access to CP. No stratagems should cancel stratagems lol.
Knight are broken in concept. They are a skew list that is take all comers.
All factions should have a counter strategem. Not none.
That is another option.
Yeah, I'd love to be able to have choices when it comes to which cult or kabal to use tbh.
So like....now that we're discussing giving it to the armies you play, are counter-strat strats NOT fundamentally broken?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 18:11:58
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Well IG would get huge boost with that. It would be waaaay more efficient than any of their other stratagems so finally something to use all the CP's in mono IG. No need to get allies to spend CP's on really good stuff.
Xenomancers wrote: Have you seen endless furry? Plus it's the combination of their shooting and CC. I typically table people with knights. I don't see why you think they don't shoot good.
So your soup nonsence beats pure knights lists nit really shure how that makes knight's more broken, if anything it says even strong codex's need buffed against the power abuse cheese of soup lists.
How about we fix the problem at it's core. Units should get actual comparable power level for their points. Stratagems of the same cost should have a similar level of effect. All armies have equal access to CP. No stratagems should cancel stratagems lol.
Knight are broken in concept. They are a skew list that is take all comers.
All factions should have a counter strategem. Not none.
That is another option.
When they are priced “appropriately,” Militarum Tempestus will probably get the boot because the IG codex will only get one with the massive amount CP in mind, being crazy expensive, I bet. Actually, this would be a good opportunity to give Scions more stuff cheaper, requiring IG armies to take special operatives like Scions in order to do a counter stratagem.
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
Xenomancers wrote: Have you seen endless furry? Plus it's the combination of their shooting and CC. I typically table people with knights. I don't see why you think they don't shoot good.
So your soup nonsence beats pure knights lists nit really shure how that makes knight's more broken, if anything it says even strong codex's need buffed against the power abuse cheese of soup lists.
How about we fix the problem at it's core. Units should get actual comparable power level for their points. Stratagems of the same cost should have a similar level of effect. All armies have equal access to CP. No stratagems should cancel stratagems lol.
Knight are broken in concept. They are a skew list that is take all comers.
A couple questions.
1) Why include "no stratagems should cancel stratagems" in a discussion on basic power level of stratagems? I'd figure that a "cancel" strat would be a basic thing you'd add, to avoid certain strategies that totally revolve around them. Like, in Magic Cards should there be no card that prevents another card from being played because that's fundamentally OP?
2) How are knights TAC? We've already demonstrated that we understand in this thread that they have inherent weaknesses to alpha strike and poor objective control by definition, unless you bring allies to give them those capabilities. Sure, they can kill all types of units, to varying degrees of effectiveness.
Are Daemons "broken in concept, a skew army that is TAC" because they all have invulns? Are custodes that, because everything is T5+ and multiwound? Or is that just a buzzword you threw on at the end there to try and make people nod along and say "mhm, it's not fair, they're not playing by the rules that pretty much nobody actually plays by"
You know what codexes are not "skew lists that are TAC" that are super fething strong? As in, they have light infantry, heavy infantry, light tanks, heavy tanks, superheavies, bikes, flyers, psykers, close combat units, shooting units, specialists, generalists, etc etc etc? CWE and Guard.
Does that make them not broken?
1.) If the game is going to revolve around stratagems - if one has the ability to cancel and the other doesn't. That is OP. In magic every deck can include blue and counterspells. In 40k not every army has access to GSC and DE. As suggested by another - making that a generic stratagem seems like it would be okay too - it's too powerful not to be "all" or "none".
2.) Every list is vulnerable to alpha strike. This game is mostly decided by who goes first. It's always been that way.
3.) All knights are T8. Making the majority of all weapons low str weapons useless against them. That is what I mean by a skew list. Daemons have a lot of varying statlines.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Have you seen endless furry? Plus it's the combination of their shooting and CC. I typically table people with knights. I don't see why you think they don't shoot good.
So your soup nonsence beats pure knights lists nit really shure how that makes knight's more broken, if anything it says even strong codex's need buffed against the power abuse cheese of soup lists.
How about we fix the problem at it's core. Units should get actual comparable power level for their points. Stratagems of the same cost should have a similar level of effect. All armies have equal access to CP. No stratagems should cancel stratagems lol.
Knight are broken in concept. They are a skew list that is take all comers.
A couple questions.
1) Why include "no stratagems should cancel stratagems" in a discussion on basic power level of stratagems? I'd figure that a "cancel" strat would be a basic thing you'd add, to avoid certain strategies that totally revolve around them. Like, in Magic Cards should there be no card that prevents another card from being played because that's fundamentally OP?
2) How are knights TAC? We've already demonstrated that we understand in this thread that they have inherent weaknesses to alpha strike and poor objective control by definition, unless you bring allies to give them those capabilities. Sure, they can kill all types of units, to varying degrees of effectiveness.
Are Daemons "broken in concept, a skew army that is TAC" because they all have invulns? Are custodes that, because everything is T5+ and multiwound? Or is that just a buzzword you threw on at the end there to try and make people nod along and say "mhm, it's not fair, they're not playing by the rules that pretty much nobody actually plays by"
You know what codexes are not "skew lists that are TAC" that are super fething strong? As in, they have light infantry, heavy infantry, light tanks, heavy tanks, superheavies, bikes, flyers, psykers, close combat units, shooting units, specialists, generalists, etc etc etc? CWE and Guard.
Does that make them not broken?
1.) If the game is going to revolve around stratagems - if one has the ability to cancel and the other doesn't. That is OP. In magic every deck can include blue and counterspells. In 40k not every army has access to GSC and DE. As suggested by another - making that a generic stratagem seems like it would be okay too - it's too powerful not to be "all" or "none".
2.) Every list is vulnerable to alpha strike. This game is mostly decided by who goes first. It's always been that way.
3.) All knights are T8. Making the majority of all weapons low str weapons useless against them. That is what I mean by a skew list. Daemons have a lot of varying statlines.
Well, you know, except for the ones that are T7.
All daemons have invulnerable saves and not armor saves. All AP that you have in your army, every singular point of negative AP modifier you have is totally worthless vs daemons.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
tneva82 wrote: Well IG would get huge boost with that. It would be waaaay more efficient than any of their other stratagems so finally something to use all the CP's in mono IG. No need to get allies to spend CP's on really good stuff.
In my version of the game all armies have equal access to CP. Mono armies can compete against soup. If CP is the same for almost every army.
Xenomancers wrote: Have you seen endless furry? Plus it's the combination of their shooting and CC. I typically table people with knights. I don't see why you think they don't shoot good.
So your soup nonsence beats pure knights lists nit really shure how that makes knight's more broken, if anything it says even strong codex's need buffed against the power abuse cheese of soup lists.
How about we fix the problem at it's core. Units should get actual comparable power level for their points. Stratagems of the same cost should have a similar level of effect. All armies have equal access to CP. No stratagems should cancel stratagems lol.
Knight are broken in concept. They are a skew list that is take all comers.
A couple questions.
1) Why include "no stratagems should cancel stratagems" in a discussion on basic power level of stratagems? I'd figure that a "cancel" strat would be a basic thing you'd add, to avoid certain strategies that totally revolve around them. Like, in Magic Cards should there be no card that prevents another card from being played because that's fundamentally OP?
2) How are knights TAC? We've already demonstrated that we understand in this thread that they have inherent weaknesses to alpha strike and poor objective control by definition, unless you bring allies to give them those capabilities. Sure, they can kill all types of units, to varying degrees of effectiveness.
Are Daemons "broken in concept, a skew army that is TAC" because they all have invulns? Are custodes that, because everything is T5+ and multiwound? Or is that just a buzzword you threw on at the end there to try and make people nod along and say "mhm, it's not fair, they're not playing by the rules that pretty much nobody actually plays by"
You know what codexes are not "skew lists that are TAC" that are super fething strong? As in, they have light infantry, heavy infantry, light tanks, heavy tanks, superheavies, bikes, flyers, psykers, close combat units, shooting units, specialists, generalists, etc etc etc? CWE and Guard.
Does that make them not broken?
1.) If the game is going to revolve around stratagems - if one has the ability to cancel and the other doesn't. That is OP. In magic every deck can include blue and counterspells. In 40k not every army has access to GSC and DE. As suggested by another - making that a generic stratagem seems like it would be okay too - it's too powerful not to be "all" or "none".
2.) Every list is vulnerable to alpha strike. This game is mostly decided by who goes first. It's always been that way.
3.) All knights are T8. Making the majority of all weapons low str weapons useless against them. That is what I mean by a skew list. Daemons have a lot of varying statlines.
Well, you know, except for the ones that are T7.
All daemons have invulnerable saves and not armor saves. All AP that you have in your army, every singular point of negative AP modifier you have is totally worthless vs daemons.
Lots of Daemons have 3+ saves.
Same armor save though for the armigers - cost wise you get just about as much durability per point regardless. Knights are a skew list...you aren't really disputing this are you? If so - why?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 19:14:57
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
