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As ironic as it sounds a Tournament player it's not obliged to use the newest iteration of the rules. He is just forced to play abiding to the TO's personal discretion for such tournament.

Tournament A may choose to allow WD introduced rules while tournament B may choose to not use WD rules for Assasins, bolter drill, Crimson fists or Ynnari.

Not even close to the biggest nerf.

Squats got a *much* bigger nerf in 3E, just like WFB's Dogs of War in 8E.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you're a tournament player, you have the obligation to get the newest rules. Don't like it, Don't play in tournaments.

This is not accurate. If you're a tournament player, you're required to use whatever rules the tournament organiser stipulates. While that's generally the most recent version, it's not uncommon for tournaments to not allow rules that have been released just prior to the event, and many tournaments over the years have not allowed White Dwarf and/or Chapter Approved rules. It wouldn't be at all surprising for a tournament to choose to not use rules that aren't actually currently available to everyone.



And, of course, outside of tournaments there is not (and never has been) any requirement to use the latest rules. A codex that functioned yesterday doesn't suddenly become unusable just because a newer publication has been released. Moving on to the newer rules is a common convention, but most certainly not a rule.

 insaniak wrote:
And, of course, outside of tournaments there is not (and never has been) any requirement to use the latest rules. A codex that functioned yesterday doesn't suddenly become unusable just because a newer publication has been released. Moving on to the newer rules is a common convention, but most certainly not a rule.

The Age of Sigmar FAQ does require you to "... use the most recently published warscroll and errata that you or your opponent have available" and 40K does have this flowchart that tells you what datasheet you should use..

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

dkoz wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Well by that logic I'll keep using my un-nerfed commissars and conscripts.

You have to use the latest rules, it's the only way the game can function.

No until chapter approved is released players shouldn't be forced to use a publication you can't get your hands on a month after it comes out. No tournament circuit could function well that way. Also that would mean any new player that wanted to pick up the army 3 months from that WD is going to have to go back to find an old monthly publication just so they can play their new are, that seems foolish.

Ebay is a thing.

A tournament should not allow unofficial copies of rules. So tel me how a player plays the new ynnari if there is no copies for purchase and no illegal copies allowed? And saying “he can’t” isnt an option. Answer? Index. Yay! We found a way around the bad rules until chapter approved. People will hate it but hey, they can go cry

If you're a tournament player, you have the obligation to get the newest rules. Don't like it, Don't play in tournaments.

No if your a tournament player you have an obligation to abide by the tournament rules & win really. If someone can't get there hands on a magazine that comes out once a month then is gone no that's not right. Till chapter approved comes out Yannarie should be able to use the index. Would you let someone use the Crimson Fist relic from the WD if they didn't have a copy? I doubt it and I don't see many tournaments letting players do that either. So just like you can't use relics or stratagems from a WD you don't own you can't force Yannari players to.

 Ghaz wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
And, of course, outside of tournaments there is not (and never has been) any requirement to use the latest rules. A codex that functioned yesterday doesn't suddenly become unusable just because a newer publication has been released. Moving on to the newer rules is a common convention, but most certainly not a rule.

The Age of Sigmar FAQ does require you to "... use the most recently published warscroll and errata that you or your opponent have available" and 40K does have this flowchart that tells you what datasheet you should use..

White dwarfs have never replaced rules, only added new ways to play an existing army or unit

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

A tournament should not allow unofficial copies of rules. So tel me how a player plays the new ynnari if there is no copies for purchase and no illegal copies allowed? And saying “he can’t” isnt an option. Answer? Index. Yay! We found a way around the bad rules until chapter approved. People will hate it but hey, they can go cry

Hate to break it to ya but xenos index 1 isn't for sale anymore, so there goes your work around.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

White dwarfs have never replaced rules, only added new ways to play an existing army or unit

They literally replaced the rules for Assassin's 2 months ago. There was also a blood angles and sister codex replacement in white dwarf years ago. Tons of precedence.

Hell these Ynnari rules actually state they replace index xenos 1, not sure how much clearer it can be.

Edit: Should have refreshed the page...

 winterman wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

A tournament should not allow unofficial copies of rules. So tel me how a player plays the new ynnari if there is no copies for purchase and no illegal copies allowed? And saying “he can’t” isnt an option. Answer? Index. Yay! We found a way around the bad rules until chapter approved. People will hate it but hey, they can go cry

Hate to break it to ya but xenos index 1 isn't for sale anymore, so there goes your work around.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

White dwarfs have never replaced rules, only added new ways to play an existing army or unit

They literally replaced the rules for Assassin's 2 months ago. There was also a blood angles and sister codex replacement in white dwarf years ago. Tons of precedence.

Hell these Ynnari rules actually state they replace index xenos 1, not sure how much clearer it can be.

If you wanted to play me and you brought assassins and didn’t have the physical white dwarf with you, but instead pictures or anprint out I wouldn’t let you play them. Pay for the rules or don’t have access to them. Those models would probably then somehow end up on the floor, darn wind. Hate to break it to you, show me the rules that state I can think use Xenos 1

lol, there is no way a TO is going to allow the old Ynnari to stand when this Index releases, at least not at a big event. So, good luck with that,

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 winterman wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

A tournament should not allow unofficial copies of rules. So tel me how a player plays the new ynnari if there is no copies for purchase and no illegal copies allowed? And saying “he can’t” isnt an option. Answer? Index. Yay! We found a way around the bad rules until chapter approved. People will hate it but hey, they can go cry

Hate to break it to ya but xenos index 1 isn't for sale anymore, so there goes your work around.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

White dwarfs have never replaced rules, only added new ways to play an existing army or unit

They literally replaced the rules for Assassin's 2 months ago. There was also a blood angles and sister codex replacement in white dwarf years ago. Tons of precedence.

Hell these Ynnari rules actually state they replace index xenos 1, not sure how much clearer it can be.

If you wanted to play me and you brought assassins and didn’t have the physical white dwarf with you, but instead pictures or anprint out I wouldn’t let you play them. Pay for the rules or don’t have access to them. Those models would probably then somehow end up on the floor, darn wind. Hate to break it to you, show me the rules that state I can think use Xenos 1

cool, but that's just you being TFG. Nobody can force you to play a friendly game is anybody. However most respectable tournaments are understanding and accepting these print outs of "White Dwarf only" rules after verifying them, so you can argue what you want personally, but it doesn't make Assassins an illegal unit in 40k just because you missed White Dwarf that month lol

 SHUPPET wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 winterman wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

A tournament should not allow unofficial copies of rules. So tel me how a player plays the new ynnari if there is no copies for purchase and no illegal copies allowed? And saying “he can’t” isnt an option. Answer? Index. Yay! We found a way around the bad rules until chapter approved. People will hate it but hey, they can go cry

Hate to break it to ya but xenos index 1 isn't for sale anymore, so there goes your work around.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

White dwarfs have never replaced rules, only added new ways to play an existing army or unit

They literally replaced the rules for Assassin's 2 months ago. There was also a blood angles and sister codex replacement in white dwarf years ago. Tons of precedence.

Hell these Ynnari rules actually state they replace index xenos 1, not sure how much clearer it can be.

If you wanted to play me and you brought assassins and didn’t have the physical white dwarf with you, but instead pictures or anprint out I wouldn’t let you play them. Pay for the rules or don’t have access to them. Those models would probably then somehow end up on the floor, darn wind. Hate to break it to you, show me the rules that state I can think use Xenos 1

cool, but that's just you being TFG. Nobody can force you to play a friendly game is anybody. However most respectable tournaments are understanding and accepting these print outs of "White Dwarf only" rules after verifying them, so you can argue what you want personally, but it doesn't make Assassins an illegal unit in 40k just because you missed White Dwarf that month lol

Mm I beg to differ. In this case TFG mentality is probably best. Imperium doesn’t need any decent toys anyway, they aren’t aeldari.

That's unbelievably low level toxic attitude and that's from someone who plays Nids. If you were in my local you would have both no friends and no opponents. Play by the damn rules

If I don't come to a wrestling event with my med check and my ID papers, no one is going to care if they saw me in prior events, I have the proper gear. We had a guy disqualified for having broken seals on his running shoes. That is more or less the norm in sports. You can miss a button on the whole gear, and if the judges or other players notice, your out.

 SHUPPET wrote:
That's unbelievably low level toxic attitude and that's from someone who plays Nids. If you were in my local you would have both no friends and no opponents. Play by the damn rules

Good thing I’m not at your locals

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
That's unbelievably low level toxic attitude and that's from someone who plays Nids. If you were in my local you would have both no friends and no opponents. Play by the damn rules

Good thing I’m not at your locals

i imagine it's easier to win when you rule out anything you deem too hard to beat.

No thanks, I'll stick to competent opponents.

So, how about we stop waving our virtual bits around and get back to the actual topic?

 insaniak wrote:
So, how about we stop waving our virtual bits around and get back to the actual topic?

Agreed. I feel like we can’t make a full judgement until we know everything that will be in the white dwarf. There could be a relic, a stratagem, or even a psychic power that has a combo just as strong if not stronger than the current rendition. I fully expect there to be a 2cp unit shooting twice strat. Others have it, ynnari just did it better but should get it again in that way so reapers will still shoot twice although yes limited to cp.

Well i can safely say that Corsairs were the biggest nerf in 40k history as they are still a faction.

Yeah. I mean, even confining the discussion to recent years alone, I think Corsairs have taken it on the chin harder than the Ynnari are about to.

I don`t agree with him, but his words have some logic.

1. In case of assassins and fist bot faction got something extra, not their core rules rewritten. So you can play them with the old rules and no one will have problem with that.

2. This is major update, no one was going to be unhappy if the rules are posted in the BIG FAQ. There is no need to force players to buy white dwarf and run with it at tournaments just for the sake of it. Assassin bringing white dwarf to use their new broken stratagems is fine, but if they bring index i would allow them to play assassins.

3. Ynnari rules are known by the testers at least 2 mounts ago, so GW could have posted them not officially, to allow players more time to prepare for the tournaments they want to participate. I have person who just wasted 3 mounts to test his Ynnari list for ETC event and now all his work is down the drain. Team events planning is not like going to the local tournament, you buy tickets plan prepare your army and 1 month is not big enough period for most players to prepare.

dkoz wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Well by that logic I'll keep using my un-nerfed commissars and conscripts.

You have to use the latest rules, it's the only way the game can function.

No until chapter approved is released players shouldn't be forced to use a publication you can't get your hands on a month after it comes out. No tournament circuit could function well that way. Also that would mean any new player that wanted to pick up the army 3 months from that WD is going to have to go back to find an old monthly publication just so they can play their new are, that seems foolish.

It's 2019 mate...

If people coped in the past with Feral Orks, SOB, Kroot, Cursed Founding, DoW, Kislev, Zombie Pirates etc. in years past being published in WD then they'll cope with this.

Marin wrote:
I don`t agree with him, but his words have some logic.

1. In case of assassins and fist bot faction got something extra, not their core rules rewritten. So you can play them with the old rules and no one will have problem with that.

2. This is major update, no one was going to be unhappy if the rules are posted in the BIG FAQ. There is no need to force players to buy white dwarf and run with it at tournaments just for the sake of it. Assassin bringing white dwarf to use their new broken stratagems is fine, but if they bring index i would allow them to play assassins.

3. Ynnari rules are known by the testers at least 2 mounts ago, so GW could have posted them not officially, to allow players more time to prepare for the tournaments they want to participate. I have person who just wasted 3 mounts to test his Ynnari list for ETC event and now all his work is down the drain. Team events planning is not like going to the local tournament, you buy tickets plan prepare your army and 1 month is not big enough period for most players to prepare.

Point 1 - not really. Every tournament packet I have seen says use the most recent rules so if you use older source you are breaking the tournament rules. What you do on your kitchen table is of course entirely up to you.

Point 2 - OK I get it you want free stuff. We all like free stuff and we even blind ourselves to the real costs with free stuff (like privacy with free internet services). GW want to be paid for their work so they generally charge for new rules. If you can't afford a WD copy then how can you afford to travel to ETC?

Point 3 - ETC will also be hit by the big FAQ and so anyone planning to use what they perfectly well know is OP (why else would you be planning to use it at ETC) has been running the risk of it being changed and their plans affected. Basically however this is just asking for them to publish them earlier than they publish them - which is paradoxical is it not? Whenever they publish anything it might affect the long term planning of some players for some tournaments.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
A collective sigh of relief was heard.

I see Dakka isn’t learning.. we have 5% of the rules exposed. Still psychic powers relics strats everything. I can’t wait until a broken combo is discovered and then people are all “no no nerf again nerf again! The ynnari is unfair oh woe is me and my stupid non aeldari army!”

I see you haven't learned yet. I have lost time how often it's "but but we haven't seen it all!" and yet it was exactly as bad as it first showed up.

Funny thing that things can be generally figured out in advance. Broken combo's are generally found out before codex is even out with only partial info. Full info gives generally just small tweaks. Not total makeover.

tneva82 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
A collective sigh of relief was heard.

I see Dakka isn’t learning.. we have 5% of the rules exposed. Still psychic powers relics strats everything. I can’t wait until a broken combo is discovered and then people are all “no no nerf again nerf again! The ynnari is unfair oh woe is me and my stupid non aeldari army!”

I see you haven't learned yet. I have lost time how often it's "but but we haven't seen it all!" and yet it was exactly as bad as it first showed up.

Funny thing that things can be generally figured out in advance. Broken combo's are generally found out before codex is even out with only partial info. Full info gives generally just small tweaks. Not total makeover.

I see someone doesn’t listen to MODs. Stick to the topic, nothing more. Now, back ON topic, again, it does seem there may be ways to still utilize the index 1 still. Saying it’s not available for purchase isn’t an actual argument as the white dwarf won’t be purchasable after the month is up.

Going to quote this, along with a gentle warning to not ignore it.

 insaniak wrote:
So, how about we stop waving our virtual bits around and get back to the actual topic?

The part that might bother me here is that if anything Ynnari loses <Masque> etc then all buffs which key off the <Masque> or equivalent will not work in an Ynnari detachment. That makes them absolutely terrible for Harlequins who really need those buffs from their Troupe Masters and Shadowseers; or really any HQ that should be having a nice area buff but which applies to a keyword which has been removed. Hopefully that will be clarified to still work on one of the other pages or will get a FAQ. An Ynnari Troupe Master should still work the same with Ynnari Harlequins and should not just lose the benefit of the area buff rule.

As for the rest, I think it is just a matter of choosing which set of psychic powers and stratagems etc you want for the detachment. Could be nice adding a psyker to a Drukhari detachment but I'm going to guess that at least half the powers will be buffs that only work on Ynnari keyword so keeping them Drukhari loses a lot of the potential benefit of that. I will be happy if Ynnari are not just an auto-take for a handful of OP combos that can be exploited but they do need to have good enough rules of their own to be a viable and interesting choice. Those rules are on the pages we have not seen so the jury is very much out.

happy_inquisitor wrote:

Marin wrote:
I don`t agree with him, but his words have some logic.

1. In case of assassins and fist bot faction got something extra, not their core rules rewritten. So you can play them with the old rules and no one will have problem with that.

2. This is major update, no one was going to be unhappy if the rules are posted in the BIG FAQ. There is no need to force players to buy white dwarf and run with it at tournaments just for the sake of it. Assassin bringing white dwarf to use their new broken stratagems is fine, but if they bring index i would allow them to play assassins.

3. Ynnari rules are known by the testers at least 2 mounts ago, so GW could have posted them not officially, to allow players more time to prepare for the tournaments they want to participate. I have person who just wasted 3 mounts to test his Ynnari list for ETC event and now all his work is down the drain. Team events planning is not like going to the local tournament, you buy tickets plan prepare your army and 1 month is not big enough period for most players to prepare.

Point 1 - not really. Every tournament packet I have seen says use the most recent rules so if you use older source you are breaking the tournament rules. What you do on your kitchen table is of course entirely up to you.

Point 2 - OK I get it you want free stuff. We all like free stuff and we even blind ourselves to the real costs with free stuff (like privacy with free internet services). GW want to be paid for their work so they generally charge for new rules. If you can't afford a WD copy then how can you afford to travel to ETC?

Point 3 - ETC will also be hit by the big FAQ and so anyone planning to use what they perfectly well know is OP (why else would you be planning to use it at ETC) has been running the risk of it being changed and their plans affected. Basically however this is just asking for them to publish them earlier than they publish them - which is paradoxical is it not? Whenever they publish anything it might affect the long term planning of some players for some tournaments.

1. There will not be problem since the core rules are the some and the opponent will be suprised you are just not using the stratagems.

2. That was not the point, white dwarf got delivered in my country 14 days after release, if there are no leaks we are in the dark. So no WD is terrible space for new rules and its creates mess. The rules are everywhere in rule book, codex, index, faq, CA and now in whitedwarf. People buy the models and its not their job to fix GW messy rules.

3. The idea is the rules are known 2 months before release, there was no reason to keep the public in the dark. Even if they release 80% of the rules(before official release) it will help the planning. Paradoxical or not, the testers know them metta 2 mounts before the others and that give them advantage. After all this is not some digital game where you just need to buy the next patch and all is set.

happy_inquisitor wrote:
The part that might bother me here is that if anything Ynnari loses <Masque> etc then all buffs which key off the <Masque> or equivalent will not work in an Ynnari detachment. That makes them absolutely terrible for Harlequins who really need those buffs from their Troupe Masters and Shadowseers; or really any HQ that should be having a nice area buff but which applies to a keyword which has been removed. Hopefully that will be clarified to still work on one of the other pages or will get a FAQ. An Ynnari Troupe Master should still work the same with Ynnari Harlequins and should not just lose the benefit of the area buff rule.

As for the rest, I think it is just a matter of choosing which set of psychic powers and stratagems etc you want for the detachment. Could be nice adding a psyker to a Drukhari detachment but I'm going to guess that at least half the powers will be buffs that only work on Ynnari keyword so keeping them Drukhari loses a lot of the potential benefit of that. I will be happy if Ynnari are not just an auto-take for a handful of OP combos that can be exploited but they do need to have good enough rules of their own to be a viable and interesting choice. Those rules are on the pages we have not seen so the jury is very much out.

Actually I'm expecting the Revenant Discipline, warlord traits and relics to be reworkings of what was found in the Fracture of Biel-Tan book, and most of the psychic powers in there were Witchfires, so I'm expecting multiple ways to dish out mortal wounds. Not everything will be able to translate though (one of the warlord traits allowed you to select your psychic powers instead of roll for them, which is now a game wide option in 8th), so there will be some room to do things diferently.

Marin wrote:

happy_inquisitor wrote:

Marin wrote:
I don`t agree with him, but his words have some logic.

1. In case of assassins and fist bot faction got something extra, not their core rules rewritten. So you can play them with the old rules and no one will have problem with that.

2. This is major update, no one was going to be unhappy if the rules are posted in the BIG FAQ. There is no need to force players to buy white dwarf and run with it at tournaments just for the sake of it. Assassin bringing white dwarf to use their new broken stratagems is fine, but if they bring index i would allow them to play assassins.

3. Ynnari rules are known by the testers at least 2 mounts ago, so GW could have posted them not officially, to allow players more time to prepare for the tournaments they want to participate. I have person who just wasted 3 mounts to test his Ynnari list for ETC event and now all his work is down the drain. Team events planning is not like going to the local tournament, you buy tickets plan prepare your army and 1 month is not big enough period for most players to prepare.

Point 1 - not really. Every tournament packet I have seen says use the most recent rules so if you use older source you are breaking the tournament rules. What you do on your kitchen table is of course entirely up to you.

Point 2 - OK I get it you want free stuff. We all like free stuff and we even blind ourselves to the real costs with free stuff (like privacy with free internet services). GW want to be paid for their work so they generally charge for new rules. If you can't afford a WD copy then how can you afford to travel to ETC?

Point 3 - ETC will also be hit by the big FAQ and so anyone planning to use what they perfectly well know is OP (why else would you be planning to use it at ETC) has been running the risk of it being changed and their plans affected. Basically however this is just asking for them to publish them earlier than they publish them - which is paradoxical is it not? Whenever they publish anything it might affect the long term planning of some players for some tournaments.

1. There will not be problem since the core rules are the some and the opponent will be suprised you are just not using the stratagems.

2. That was not the point, white dwarf got delivered in my country 14 days after release, if there are no leaks we are in the dark. So no WD is terrible space for new rules and its creates mess. The rules are everywhere in rule book, codex, index, faq, CA and now in whitedwarf. People buy the models and its not their job to fix GW messy rules.

3. The idea is the rules are known 2 months before release, there was no reason to keep the public in the dark. Even if they release 80% of the rules(before official release) it will help the planning. Paradoxical or not, the testers know them metta 2 mounts before the others and that give them advantage. After all this is not some digital game where you just need to buy the next patch and all is set.

Simply put the leaks have already shown that index is replaced by the WD index, therefore their is no I'll just use the old index cheese rules or I have to use the index rules, GW in WD straight up says you can't no work arounds, no buts. Index Yannari is dead stop trying to support a troll it really makes you look bad.