Blood Ravens Index Astartes - July White Dwarf

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**Quasistellar**

I do find it odd that Librarians don't have invulnerable saves.

And librarians are definitely cool. The primaris librarian with helmet on is a really cool model.

**ChargerIIC**

Quasistellar wrote:
I do find it odd that Librarians don't have invulnerable saves.

I swear that's the most triggering thing I've encountered playing 8th. How the psyker doesn't have an invul I'll never know

**Strg Alt**

ChargerIIC wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
I do find it odd that Librarians don't have invulnerable saves.

I swear that's the most triggering thing I've encountered playing 8th. How the psyker doesn't have an invul I'll never know

They never had one in previous editions. And they don´t need one to be honest. Librarians are battle monks who turn themselves into combat monsters once they apply their psychic powers. Giving them an invulnerable save would overshadow the Cpt. and Chaplain.

**Desubot**

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Maybe he's not discussing their effectiveness, but rather answering the Question of why someone would take them in the Army. IE they are (particularly) cool to that person, perhaps much cooler to them than your Smashcaptain. That's the thing about cool, its different to everyone. Some people play their armies entirely on what they think is cool. So they are the people that would take a Chief Librarian.

They probably also think the Blood Ravens are cool, despite not having the best trait, so thats probably why they'd use it.

So that answers the assertion in the post they were responding to stating that there is no reason to play the Blood Ravens rules. Clearly there is, its just not for everyone.

This.

Honestly now. it was a really short sighted question. also is the whole competitiveness discussion even On topic for the News and rumor thread?

**Jidmah**

Galef wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Its not a good trait. How many times is your BR infantry going to be attacked with S8+ weapons ??

Also dakka: "Primaris are crap because plasma!"
Yeah, this is my thinking. BR will be a strong contender for Primaris heavy lists. RG are still better because it affects far more weapons, but there's at least a niche for BRs if you wanna got both Primaris and Psyker heavy.

-

My primary reason for playing Blood Ravens would be their hidden Chapter Tactics - fielding Gabriel Angelos and commenting everything happening with his quotes from the DoW games. Sooner or later my opponent will snap and try to kill him with everything he has.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Strg Alt wrote:
ChargerIIC wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
I do find it odd that Librarians don't have invulnerable saves.

I swear that's the most triggering thing I've encountered playing 8th. How the psyker doesn't have an invul I'll never know

They never had one in previous editions. And they don´t need one to be honest. Librarians are battle monks who turn themselves into combat monsters once they apply their psychic powers. Giving them an invulnerable save would overshadow the Cpt. and Chaplain.

This would be easy to believe if they ever WERE combat monsters or other buffers didn't get Invuls, like Commanders.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Desubot wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Galef wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Its not a good trait. How many times is your BR infantry going to be attacked with S8+ weapons ??

Also dakka: "Primaris are crap because plasma!"
Yeah, this is my thinking. BR will be a strong contender for Primaris heavy lists. RG are still better because it affects far more weapons, but there's at least a niche for BRs if you wanna got both Primaris and Psyker heavy.

-

Except why would you go Psyker heavy with Marines? The best bets you got are the named Characters for that (Tiggy especially so).

There's no reason to go Blood Ravens rules, period.

Librarians are cool? not everyone can or wants to play ultra smurfs?

Any Marine player can use Ultramarine Chapter Tactics and use a Tiggy stand-in. No excuse, sorry, so quit defending these incompetent rules. The Crimson Fists ones already had issues, but this is beyond ridiculous

**Alpharius**

Dr. Mills wrote:
Oh noes, this chapter tactic isn't immediately spammable into my existing list with very little imput and as such isn't considered top tier.

Dakka in a nutshell.

Dakka Dakka actually doesn't have much to say about it at all...

Or, we're just a big community, with lots and lots of different opinions!

Anyway, always glad to see more gaming content in White Dwarf - just like the good ol' days!

**Desubot**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Any Marine player can use Ultramarine Chapter Tactics and use a Tiggy stand-in. No excuse, sorry, so quit defending these incompetent rules. The Crimson Fists ones already had issues, but this is beyond ridiculous

No. i dont think i will.

why are you even supporting this company if all you want to do is take the best possible options by counts as. why not just counts as chaos space marines or T sons and get all the good psyker options.

**p5freak**

Strg Alt wrote:

They never had one in previous editions. And they don´t need one to be honest. Librarians are battle monks who turn themselves into combat monsters once they apply their psychic powers. Giving them an invulnerable save would overshadow the Cpt. and Chaplain.

What kind of psychic powers are you talking about ? Veil of time and might of heroes ? Those are nice to have, but dont turn any psyker into a combat monster. Its ridiculous that a company commander for 30 pts. gets an inv, but a SM psyker for 98 pts., from the elite forces of the emperor, doesnt.

**Ouze**

Grot 6 wrote:
Where are the decals for the Blood Ravens located? I'd like a set or two of 10 each for Kill team.

As mentioned, they are pretty much impossible to find since they were discontinued.

When I made most of my Blood Ravens, those decals didn't yet exist, so I ran off decals from BOLS onto an Inkjet printer. Technology being what it is, I can now either do it on a color laser printer, or better yet, 3D print the shoulderpads with raised iconography right on it.

If you lack either a color printer or a 3D printer, then go to Shapeways or Chapter Customizer* - with the latter YMMV - or whatever and order some.

**Manfred von Drakken**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Desubot wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Galef wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Its not a good trait. How many times is your BR infantry going to be attacked with S8+ weapons ??

Also dakka: "Primaris are crap because plasma!"
Yeah, this is my thinking. BR will be a strong contender for Primaris heavy lists. RG are still better because it affects far more weapons, but there's at least a niche for BRs if you wanna got both Primaris and Psyker heavy.

-

Except why would you go Psyker heavy with Marines? The best bets you got are the named Characters for that (Tiggy especially so).

There's no reason to go Blood Ravens rules, period.

Librarians are cool? not everyone can or wants to play ultra smurfs?

Any Marine player can use Ultramarine Chapter Tactics and use a Tiggy stand-in. No excuse, sorry, so quit defending these incompetent rules. The Crimson Fists ones already had issues, but this is beyond ridiculous

When I started doing some research on the Blood Ravens, I started to really like their fluff - especially the part about them probably being Thousand Sons. I started thinking up some ideas for them. Plus, as one could probably guess by my signature, I like magic - the Chief Librarian stratagem appeals to me, and I like the rerolls from their Chapter Tactic. I was really tempted to start building an army of them, but I wasn't sure if I really wanted to go all-in on them yet.

But now I'm going to do it, and it's going to be out of sheer spite because someone thinks there is literally zero reason to do it. Thanks for giving me a reason!

**endlesswaltz123**

Strg Alt wrote:
ChargerIIC wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
I do find it odd that Librarians don't have invulnerable saves.

I swear that's the most triggering thing I've encountered playing 8th. How the psyker doesn't have an invul I'll never know

They never had one in previous editions. And they don´t need one to be honest. Librarians are battle monks who turn themselves into combat monsters once they apply their psychic powers. Giving them an invulnerable save would overshadow the Cpt. and Chaplain.

Back in 2nd, 3rd and maybe 4th edition there were ways to give librarians invulnerable saves (or equivalent for 2nd)

**Crimson Devil**

Alpharius wrote:
Dr. Mills wrote:
Oh noes, this chapter tactic isn't immediately spammable into my existing list with very little imput and as such isn't considered top tier.

Dakka in a nutshell.

Dakka Dakka actually doesn't have much to say about it at all...

Or, we're just a big community, with lots and lots of different opinions!

You must be new here.

**Grot 6**

Print these out on decal paper. Enjoy.

https://app.box.com/s/ipywshqkos

**Kirasu**

Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Desubot wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Galef wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Its not a good trait. How many times is your BR infantry going to be attacked with S8+ weapons ??

Also dakka: "Primaris are crap because plasma!"
Yeah, this is my thinking. BR will be a strong contender for Primaris heavy lists. RG are still better because it affects far more weapons, but there's at least a niche for BRs if you wanna got both Primaris and Psyker heavy.

-

Except why would you go Psyker heavy with Marines? The best bets you got are the named Characters for that (Tiggy especially so).

There's no reason to go Blood Ravens rules, period.

Librarians are cool? not everyone can or wants to play ultra smurfs?

Any Marine player can use Ultramarine Chapter Tactics and use a Tiggy stand-in. No excuse, sorry, so quit defending these incompetent rules. The Crimson Fists ones already had issues, but this is beyond ridiculous

When I started doing some research on the Blood Ravens, I started to really like their fluff - especially the part about them probably being Thousand Sons. I started thinking up some ideas for them. Plus, as one could probably guess by my signature, I like magic - the Chief Librarian stratagem appeals to me, and I like the rerolls from their Chapter Tactic. I was really tempted to start building an army of them, but I wasn't sure if I really wanted to go all-in on them yet.

But now I'm going to do it, and it's going to be out of sheer spite because someone thinks there is literally zero reason to do it. Thanks for giving me a reason!

Random people on the internet who have differing opinions are making you spend cash, time and energy just to spite them? I don't think they're going to lose any sleep...

**Ouze**

Grot 6 wrote:
Print these out on decal paper. Enjoy.

https://app.box.com/s/ipywshqkos

Those are my favorite ones and the ones I went with when I did mine too.

If you like I can send you the STL file for the 3D printable ones

Spoiler:

**Manfred von Drakken**

Kirasu wrote:

Random people on the internet who have differing opinions are making you spend cash, time and energy just to spite them? I don't think they're going to lose any sleep...

Sorry, I apparently forgot the [/drippingsarcasm] tag. That said, spite runs strong in my family.

Knowing me, I was probably gonna do it anyways 'cuz I'm terrible at self-control like that. It's just that someone claiming that there's "no reason...period" to use a particular set of rules is kinda being a bit of tool and probably needs to have his perspective checked. It's a bloody game - stop expecting everyone to enjoy things the way YOU enjoy them.

**cole1114**

I don't hate the tactic, I'll definitely give it a whirl at least once. And chief librarian could be interesting, possibly. The relic isn't the worst available (though it is an odd one).

I really hate the lack of a warlord trait, and I hate that the crimson fists got so much more. And I don't like that what they did get doesn't gel together very well.

Overall not awesome, not awful, could see some kind of competitive play with phobos librarian supreme command detachments or something.

**BrianDavion**

so the tactic is optional, and you can choose to sue any other tactic. so you could run with the Ultramarines tactic and use the cheif librarian stratigium if you where of a mind,. just for example. might make this a little handier.

Also, on a lore note, seems we can add the blood ravens to the list of Imperium Nihlus chapters.

**kastelen**

BrianDavion wrote:
so the tactic is optional, and you can choose to sue any other tactic. so you could run with the Ultramarines tactic and use the cheif librarian stratigium if you where of a mind,. just for example. might make this a little handier.

Also, on a lore note, seems we can add the blood ravens to the list of Imperium Nihlus chapters.

How is the tactic optional?

**BrianDavion**

kastelen wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
so the tactic is optional, and you can choose to sue any other tactic. so you could run with the Ultramarines tactic and use the cheif librarian stratigium if you where of a mind,. just for example. might make this a little handier.

Also, on a lore note, seems we can add the blood ravens to the list of Imperium Nihlus chapters.

How is the tactic optional?

it's laid out in the index astartes article.

If your army posesses any Blood Raven detachments.... then when detirmining what chapter tactic units in a blood raven detachment gain, you may eaither choose the chapter tactic that you feel best represents the blood ravens on the battlefield, or you can choose the blood ravens relentless seekers Chapter tactic presented here. All blood ravens in your army must use the same chapter tactic"

**Slayer-Fan123**

BrianDavion wrote:
kastelen wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
so the tactic is optional, and you can choose to sue any other tactic. so you could run with the Ultramarines tactic and use the cheif librarian stratigium if you where of a mind,. just for example. might make this a little handier.

Also, on a lore note, seems we can add the blood ravens to the list of Imperium Nihlus chapters.

How is the tactic optional?

it's laid out in the index astartes article.

If your army posesses any Blood Raven detachments.... then when detirmining what chapter tactic units in a blood raven detachment gain, you may eaither choose the chapter tactic that you feel best represents the blood ravens on the battlefield, or you can choose the blood ravens relentless seekers Chapter tactic presented here. All blood ravens in your army must use the same chapter tactic"

Ergo making it even more pointless when you could go with Iron Hands instead, already a lame Chapter Tactic.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Desubot wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Any Marine player can use Ultramarine Chapter Tactics and use a Tiggy stand-in. No excuse, sorry, so quit defending these incompetent rules. The Crimson Fists ones already had issues, but this is beyond ridiculous

No. i dont think i will.

why are you even supporting this company if all you want to do is take the best possible options by counts as. why not just counts as chaos space marines or T sons and get all the good psyker options.

If you thought I'd actually ever buy those ghastly Plague Marines or Rubric Marines (still admittedly a better kit than some, especially Plague Marines) when I have some good Mk3-4 Marines lying around to use, you'd be sorely mistaken.

**BrianDavion**

the BR chapter tactic does have benifits to using a libby, but yeah, the BR CT is super specialist. it's not 100% bad but it's certainly not going to be a first choice for someone looking for power gaming choices

**BoomWolf**

I'd argue it's a good thing.

"first choice" is a nice way to say something is clearly a cut above the rest. in a perfect world there is no first choice as you can't be sure what's better. sure, some things will donate to a specific strategy-but there should not be a "go to" option that suits every list.

**BrianDavion**

BoomWolf wrote:
I'd argue it's a good thing.

"first choice" is a nice way to say something is clearly a cut above the rest. in a perfect world there is no first choice as you can't be sure what's better. sure, some things will donate to a specific strategy-but there should not be a "go to" option that suits every list.

yeah but sadly on dakka dakka if someone's not utterly brokenly good "it sucks" it's tiring to hear

Please don't use that term here - ingtaer.

**Slayer-Fan123**

BoomWolf wrote:
I'd argue it's a good thing.

"first choice" is a nice way to say something is clearly a cut above the rest. in a perfect world there is no first choice as you can't be sure what's better. sure, some things will donate to a specific strategy-but there should not be a "go to" option that suits every list.

There are several "first choices" over the newly created Blood Ravens Chapter Tactic though.

**cole1114**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:
I'd argue it's a good thing.

"first choice" is a nice way to say something is clearly a cut above the rest. in a perfect world there is no first choice as you can't be sure what's better. sure, some things will donate to a specific strategy-but there should not be a "go to" option that suits every list.

There are several "first choices" over the newly created Blood Ravens Chapter Tactic though.

And the point they're making is that something being a clear-cut first choice is bad.

**Slayer-Fan123**

cole1114 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:
I'd argue it's a good thing.

"first choice" is a nice way to say something is clearly a cut above the rest. in a perfect world there is no first choice as you can't be sure what's better. sure, some things will donate to a specific strategy-but there should not be a "go to" option that suits every list.

There are several "first choices" over the newly created Blood Ravens Chapter Tactic though.

And the point they're making is that something being a clear-cut first choice is bad.

So the fact that the original rules are that bad says a lot about the rules writing team.

**BrianDavion**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
cole1114 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:
I'd argue it's a good thing.

"first choice" is a nice way to say something is clearly a cut above the rest. in a perfect world there is no first choice as you can't be sure what's better. sure, some things will donate to a specific strategy-but there should not be a "go to" option that suits every list.

There are several "first choices" over the newly created Blood Ravens Chapter Tactic though.

And the point they're making is that something being a clear-cut first choice is bad.

So the fact that the original rules are that bad says a lot about the rules writing team.

or it means they deliberately wrote fun fluffy rules that power games wou;dn't have any intreast in to avoid cries of white dwarf pay to win. which is TBH a pretty fair thing considering it can be hard to track down back issues. on another note I've enjoyed the articles and fiction in this greatly, this has been the first WD I've purchased since they revised em awhile back, is the july issue pretty much the norm for what WD is like now?

**SeanDrake**

BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
cole1114 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:
I'd argue it's a good thing.

"first choice" is a nice way to say something is clearly a cut above the rest. in a perfect world there is no first choice as you can't be sure what's better. sure, some things will donate to a specific strategy-but there should not be a "go to" option that suits every list.

There are several "first choices" over the newly created Blood Ravens Chapter Tactic though.

And the point they're making is that something being a clear-cut first choice is bad.

So the fact that the original rules are that bad says a lot about the rules writing team.

or it means they deliberately wrote fun fluffy rules that power games wou;dn't have any intreast in to avoid cries of white dwarf pay to win. which is TBH a pretty fair thing considering it can be hard to track down back issues. on another note I've enjoyed the articles and fiction in this greatly, this has been the first WD I've purchased since they revised em awhile back, is the july issue pretty much the norm for what WD is like now?

Good lord that’s some desperate white knighting, so they deliberately wrote gak unfluffy rules so people won’t use them. The fact that they leave a disclaimer saying you don’t have to use these rules shows that they knew they were gak and published them anyway. The chapter tactic will literally do nothing in 99% of games that don’t involve titans shooting your dreads

The fluff excuse is abysmal given I don’t remember the Ravens being immune to plasma fire in any of the games.
Honestly if this is going to be the level of “design” given to the index articles they should save on page space and cut the rules just leaving the fluff.