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 Vineheart01 wrote:
im having a hard time telling if its actually different or its the angles playing tricks.
But now that you mention it, it does look like that back of the foot talon is different. Slightly.

If they seriously make the fletchette ones literally flying infiltrators with a little extra range....wtf was the point? Admech isnt marines, we shouldnt be getting units that are literally a superior version of another yet lol.
They have to have some other rule that hasnt been revealed yet. Thats just weird.

Infiltrators: S6, extra hits in melee. Short range shooting.
Skystalkers: (without claws) S4 in melee. Long range shooting. Fancy grenades

I fail to see how they are "literally a superior version" of Infiltrators.

I'd argue Skystalkers having Fly, speed and range are indeed superior already. Infiltrators melee output comes into play in 30% chances of a charge after DS - thus all the cases I ever have seen were always built around the idea of WoM nuke. I'm trying to run them in narrative games as Stygies and... let's just say they are not returning the investment.

Will Skystalkers do any better than WoM nuke? Maybe, depends on how this grenade cluster rule is really supposed to work, and their points pricing obviously. But even if they are only another WoM delivery, then at least they can do it from 24" afar, not trying to squeeze themselves among Omniscramblers, Scouts, hordes jumping all over the place and whatnot. In my games, Infiltrators have lost their value for the sole sake of how screened out the table is.

Pretty excited for the new units, they actually seem to be going for a good number of mobility niches the admech didn't have before.

Skystalkers seem more like a skirmish/ harrasment role than the infiltrators chaff killing/tying down.

Flamers seem like a pretty strong screen/ mobile defensive unit that help fight off infantry, then reposition to support whatever else needs protection.

The cavalry might serve an overall more aggressive role. The flame hounds seem more for taking points than defending like the jump flamers, and reminds me a lot of seekers of slaanesh, but more fire less claws.

The final cav seems like a mystery, but i'm reckoning it'll serve as a variation of skystalker harass- some kind of sniper to hunt squishy characters or maybe put wounds on harder targets in the form or mortals?

If they give Infiltrators they -1 to Hit 12" aura back and give both units Scout instead of deepstrike ( or the new units have scout) and ruststalkers get they stungrenades and lethality back. THEN I think it will be very interesting to choose different sicarians. However atm we have a lot of choices with not much impact like rangers/vanguards, arc rifles, plasma vs grav...

 0XFallen wrote:
If they give Infiltrators they -1 to Hit 12" aura back and give both units Scout instead of deepstrike ( or the new units have scout) and ruststalkers get they stungrenades and lethality back. THEN I think it will be very interesting to choose different sicarians. However atm we have a lot of choices with not much impact like rangers/vanguards, arc rifles, plasma vs grav...

As someone that uses Graia, Infiltrators are awesome for getting that deny Strat in more places.

i literally stopped using graia purely because the refusal to yield on multi wound models is irritating and uber slow to do lol.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i literally stopped using graia purely because the refusal to yield on multi wound models is irritating and uber slow to do lol.

You only ever make one roll. What's the issue?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i literally stopped using graia purely because the refusal to yield on multi wound models is irritating and uber slow to do lol.

You only ever make one roll. What's the issue?

Unit suffered 7 wounds.
First guy has 2 wounds, roll 2 saves, both failed, roll Graia, passed. Model has 1 wound left now.
Roll 3rd wound, passed, still 1 wound remaining
Roll 4th wound, failed, Graia, failed, dead model
Next model has 2 wounds, roll 2 saves, pass1/fail1, 1 damage on that model no graia roll needed.

Try that with 20+ wounds. Thats why i was getting annoyed. The damage of the individual wound doesnt change how many Graia rolls you make but the raw number of wounds do. If he didnt actually die, he makes another save on the next one.

I stopped using Graia after my last Enginseer being sniped, and Skitarii tied in combat without a Fall Back option :p. Now I'm using only <mixed> detachment, with one Lucius Skitarii unit to DS them for a Linebreaker or some objective.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i literally stopped using graia purely because the refusal to yield on multi wound models is irritating and uber slow to do lol.

You only ever make one roll. What's the issue?

Unit suffered 7 wounds.
First guy has 2 wounds, roll 2 saves, both failed, roll Graia, passed. Model has 1 wound left now.
Roll 3rd wound, passed, still 1 wound remaining
Roll 4th wound, failed, Graia, failed, dead model
Next model has 2 wounds, roll 2 saves, pass1/fail1, 1 damage on that model no graia roll needed.

Try that with 20+ wounds. Thats why i was getting annoyed. The damage of the individual wound doesnt change how many Graia rolls you make but the raw number of wounds do. If he didnt actually die, he makes another save on the next one.

I'm not sure you're doing this right...

If you have 5 models each with two wounds, you resolve ALL the attacks and damage, THEN all the graia rolls. All attacks and deaths occur at the same time during a single attack from an enemy. You don't roll for any graia saves until all the attacks have been processed. If all the models are 'killed' before the attacks are used up, there those attacks are discarded, it's what makes it a better rule than FNP on most models.

The way you describe it it's like someone getting shot and 'killed' then the opponent somehow reserving some shots so that when you stand back up from your graia roll they continue shooting. Whereas whats actually happening is all shots come in, some of your units are 'killed' then some of them refuse to yield and stand back up.

@Octovol
Akchtually...

Attacks, by the book, should be made one by one. Meaning a weapon with 2 attacks should firstly resolve the entire sequence of hit-wound-save-damage for a single attack, and only then resolve the entire sequence for the second one. We, of course, don't play that way as it would be tedious, hence why fast dice exist, but in the situation when multiple attacks can each trigger an effect (like the Graia refusal to yield) you have to roll each potentially killing attack separately.

That also means in the case when you have a 5 model squad of Vanguards, and there are 10 unsaved wounds, you have to Graia all 10 unsaved wounds, not 5 dying models.

*editing for a shameful spelling purpose

if you did it the way you describe, Graia would be borderline OP because you could technically fail to kill a single model with 50 successful wounds because of literally a single 6 roll. My friend initially saw it that way and until i corrected him he wondered why Graia was so broken as his tank absolutely refused to die since he kept making that singular D6 roll, no matter wtf hit that tank.

Like dadamowsky said, wounds are technically done one at a time. Allocate, save, apply damage if failed, allocate next. A model is slain the instant its wounds are reduced to 0, and being reduced to 0 is what keeps you from allocating more wounds to that model. There is no clause saying "after all attacks, roll for any slain..." so it must happen right then and there.
The vast majority of 40k you can speedroll i.e. bulk roll the wounds to drastically speed things up. The only time you absolutely MUST slow down is if theres different saves in the unit or something happens at a wound threshold that can affect the next save.
The same goes for anybody with FNP on a single model in a unit. If they want that FNP, they gotta roll slowly for that one model until it dies or they opt to roll for the rest of the unit instead.

Thats why Graia bothers me. Stalkers/infiltrators for me generally dont get hit with 2D guns, that stuff is usually pumped into my dragoons/ironstriders/breachers/destroyers since therye a bigger threat and harder to wound. Its the chaff-clearing guns that always go after my stalkers/infiltrators since they still wound reliably. So if they get blasted by a 10man squad of primaris dorks i generally got ~15 rolls i need to slow roll, usually followed by another afterwords. Its mega slow.

Its not better than FNP. The ONLY edge it has over FNP is it works on morale and "is slain" rules, while FNP doesnt. But you dont get it per wound so its total trash except on mass model units. Thats why i initially wanted to run numbers admech, but found i lacked any form of punch so i had to start using vehicles and graia stinks for vehicles. These new units coming out may bring that mentality back out.

I think it could be really fun having Sulphurhounds bound up supported by the Sterylizors. Works pretty well for my group’s fluff too since my guys are exterminating the planet due to a large scale Nurgle invasion.

Graia can be potentially better vs damage 2+ weapons. Electro Priests, for instance, need a single successful roll of Graia to deny Avenger, not 2 FnPs... but I admit it is rather a very narrow niche, just as Lucius -1AP ignoring. What I find subpar about a current Graia (aside from a no-Fall-Back penalty which is there... for no other reason than to be irritating TBH) is the same thing I find subpar about our Bionics inv - a roll of 6 is just not really reliable and serves no other purpose than being a token. It's cool when it's rolled, but you just don't expect it to happen. If Graia ticked on a 5+ (excluding Vehicle keywords) it might be a decent FW to run survivalist Infantry based lists.

Yeah yeah I know, won't happen.

That, or it was a proper FNP +1
I.e. a FNP that still works on "is slain" or failed morale. That way it actually does something once in awhile.

Would also make that stupid FAQ actually make sense that priests dont get it on top of their FNP (seriously still dont understand that faq they are NOT the same thing in the slightest)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
That, or it was a proper FNP +1
I.e. a FNP that still works on "is slain" or failed morale. That way it actually does something once in awhile.

Would also make that stupid FAQ actually make sense that priests dont get it on top of their FNP (seriously still dont understand that faq they are NOT the same thing in the slightest)

Check out the "Best unit" section of that article if you want to get even more pissed at the FAQ
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/12/forge-world-focus-graia-sep-12gw-homepage-post-4/

With the Graia dogma, a group of Fulgurite Electro-Priests get this save, followed by a second pseudo-saving throw from Fanatical Devotion, followed by their final Refusal To Yield roll.

Oh im aware. It makes no sense on so many levels.

Everytime someone mentions the Graia RTY the same thoughts go through my head because the way it actually works MAKES NO SENSE!

20 shots rain down from the sky some hit the ground, some hit armour and bounce off, some mortally wound the last members of the unit. Sad times. Attack sequence over. But whats this!?Through the stubborn dogged determination of forgeworld Graia 2 of those members refuse to give in, they will keep fighting for all they're worth! They get back up and keep fighting!

That's thematic. That's cool. THAT is how it should work. Not this bs that flies in my face everytime I think it's worth switching forgeworld.

For the record I agree how you both describe it. That doesn't make it any more wrong or any less crap.

Welcome to GW games, where theres tons of stupid rules you just gotta deal with that make absolutely 0 sense both narrative or balance wise.

For some of the FAQs I get the impression they just roll a dice and 1-3 is yes, 4-6 is no.

IMO Graia kept at 6+ should be resolved "after attack sequence ends". 6+ is still not that powerful, but it would make it anyhow useful.

Octovol wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i literally stopped using graia purely because the refusal to yield on multi wound models is irritating and uber slow to do lol.

You only ever make one roll. What's the issue?

Unit suffered 7 wounds.
First guy has 2 wounds, roll 2 saves, both failed, roll Graia, passed. Model has 1 wound left now.
Roll 3rd wound, passed, still 1 wound remaining
Roll 4th wound, failed, Graia, failed, dead model
Next model has 2 wounds, roll 2 saves, pass1/fail1, 1 damage on that model no graia roll needed.

Try that with 20+ wounds. Thats why i was getting annoyed. The damage of the individual wound doesnt change how many Graia rolls you make but the raw number of wounds do. If he didnt actually die, he makes another save on the next one.

I'm not sure you're doing this right...

If you have 5 models each with two wounds, you resolve ALL the attacks and damage, THEN all the graia rolls. All attacks and deaths occur at the same time during a single attack from an enemy. You don't roll for any graia saves until all the attacks have been processed. If all the models are 'killed' before the attacks are used up, there those attacks are discarded, it's what makes it a better rule than FNP on most models.

The way you describe it it's like someone getting shot and 'killed' then the opponent somehow reserving some shots so that when you stand back up from your graia roll they continue shooting. Whereas whats actually happening is all shots come in, some of your units are 'killed' then some of them refuse to yield and stand back up.

This is how I've been doing it. Nobody has questioned me whatsoever

It ought to just work as: "after all attacks [actions? if you want to include psychic powers etc] from a unit are completed, roll a dice for each model with this keyword that was destroyed. On a 6, that model is not destroyed and remains alive with 1 wound." And let it stack with FNP.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

This is how I've been doing it. Nobody has questioned me whatsoever

Which doesn't make it correct

So wait, if a unit of 5 is shot by 40 shots of -4 AP, 5 shots kills them, the other 35 shots are lost, then I make my 5 6+’s, and any 6’s keeps 1+ of them in play? As opposed to FnP where they’d have to make 36 6+’s to have at least 1 alive?

I mean, that seems like a really strong rule, but jeez that must slow the game down horrifically.

IF thats how it worked, it would be a strong rule with the potential to just trollolololol especially against elitist armies that dont have many units.

But no shots are lost. The only thing thats lost is if a 6D weapon kills a vanguard, he only makes 1 roll not 6 like FNP would so the extra 5 wounds are lost.
But 6 1W shots? gotta roll 6 graia rolls to survive.

Ah okay cool that makes more sense. Still slows things down but isn’t as nuts as I thought it was.

I’m sort of tempted to change from Mars to Graia though, purely for how cool it’d be having Vanguard charge into melee to point blank dudes in the face with their carbines after nuking them with their aura.

But I really like the rolling 2 canticles and Cawl flipping it up or down...

Graian castle built around Emotionless Clarity might be somewhat a decent idea, especially now when we are getting more Assault profiles. Kastelans that can shoot into combat with Strafing Fire are basically immune to their gratest demise: combat tagging. Cognis Flamers and now Sterylizors (especially with their heroic intervention!) might be actually a very good addition to this type of list.

One tiny bit of a problem: Eliminators, Vindicare, GSC pistol guy, and generally snipers. Admech's characters are just too soft to build an entire list around them. Maybe with a Cawl exception, our characters are absolutely destroyed by the top (meaning ones used at all) sniper options. And the Graian castle idea crumbles at the very moment when WL is killed. Fun to play semi and non competitively though.

Would it work having a bunch of max units riding up in the transports? Can probably have the Dominus in one with a bunch of Elecro priests as bodyguards. Then all bale and charge in when the Sulphurhounds and Sterylizors show up.

I tried it before I had enough Skorpius to spam Duneriders, as a footslogging army. Maybe there's a value to discover in a mechanised Graia, although as auras don't work from inside the transports the major flaw of the idea persists. If our Dominus got some sort of a Storm Shield relic (wouldn't protect against Vindicare), increased T and W count, damage decreasing by half or (ideally) a rule similar to Ghaz wounds lost per phase limitation, Graian castle might actually be viable.