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I can’t believe someone typed up pages worth of justification for why the wildly advanced Eldar that can build wormholes to the webway and hover tanks can’t afford to make superior armor or weapons than the backwards and moronic imperium.

I play two battalion Alaitoc / Soaring Spite. I really like my triple shuriken cannon wave serpent w/ 10 guardians inside. Its a cheapo unit, you're not missing out on a ton of fire opportunity while they're stuck in there (because they have short range anyway), and they are great at popping out and blasting weaker "objective holder" squads from other armies.

Then they get slaughtered immediately after because they are guardians. One shot wonder. Not the strategy of a race trying to save every single Eldar life.

Of course it requires smart usage...

I use them in 20-man webway bombs. They are decent but not amazing. Defenders are pretty much like expensive, underperforming bloodletters in my experience.

Twin linked catapults on bikes on the other hand...

warpedpig wrote:
I can’t believe someone typed up pages worth of justification for why the wildly advanced Eldar that can build wormholes to the webway and hover tanks can’t afford to make superior armor or weapons than the backwards and moronic imperium.

...but they are better. Shuriken Catapults are the Aeldari equivalent of a Shotgun, except they have Rending and stay at Strength 4 even beyond 6".

Lmao. Oh my god. A shotgun? Do you know of any military on earth that would equip their infantry or even national guard with all shotguns? I don’t know why I even respond to this sometimes

It’s a garbage rifle is what it is.

warpedpig wrote:
Lmao. Oh my god. A shotgun? Do you know of any military on earth that would equip their infantry or even national guard with all shotguns? I don’t know why I even respond to this sometimes

It’s a garbage rifle is what it is.

Yes, the US army, if it deems it necessary on circumstances?

It is not the go to weapon for regular troops. Ever. It is for special purposes. Because it is a specialized weapon. To issue shotguns to everyone is really stupid. A rifle is 10x more useful overall. It is powerful at any range for all practical purposes. The shotgun is only useful in very limited situations

warpedpig wrote:
It is not the go to weapon for regular troops. Ever. It is for special purposes. Because it is a specialized weapon. To issue shotguns to everyone is really stupid. A rifle is 10x more useful overall. It is powerful at any range for all practical purposes. The shotgun is only useful in very limited situations

So the doughboys were now specialized infantry in ww1,?

House fighting, cityfighting etc in enclosed spaces would not lead to a preference of short range high firepower weaponry?

What exactly are craftworlds then?

Doughboys with shotguns was in an era before wide adoption of submachine guns and assault rifles.

Now we use assault rifles or smgs for close range. Shotguns are for blowing the hinges off doors.

You’re really trying make this shotgun analogy work and it won’t. Craft worlds are MASSIVE and you may need to take shots that are hundreds of meters. Or five meters. This is why rifles are what we issue troops. They work from 0-500 meters

warpedpig wrote:
Doughboys with shotguns was in an era before wide adoption of submachine guns and assault rifles.

Now we use assault rifles or smgs for close range. Shotguns are for blowing the hinges off doors.

You’re really trying make this shotgun analogy work and it won’t. Craft worlds are MASSIVE and you may need to take shots that are hundreds of meters. Or five meters. This is why rifles are what we issue troops. They work from 0-500 meters

The mp 18 and various smg's did not exist in ww1?

And where exactly do you think in a craftworld the fighting happens? In the vast Parks? Or the house?
The maintenance rooms or the gardens?

And where do you think the militia will Idle around?
Especially in an army that wants to preserve it's hide as often as possible.

I’m arguing with a wall.

warpedpig wrote:
I’m arguing with a wall.

No, just a Füsilier.

warpedpig wrote:
I’m arguing with a wall.

That tends to happen when you completely miss the point.
Of course rifles are a better all round weapon for prolonged warfare than shot guns.
And if Guardians were meant for prolonged warfare, they'd probably have longer range weapons. That's why Avengers have longer range.

But by the time Guardians have to get involved, things have tits-up for the Craftworld already and it's too late for anything other than specialization.
And even if that isn't enough of a logical reason for you, try to remember that 41st millennium Aeldari don't use the same logic as us 21st century, nor would it be "realistic" if they did.

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So the best the technologically advanced Eldar can manage is to give their guardians is an extremely close range weapon. Sure. They can’t even match the range of a lasgun. It’s ridiculous.

“Shotgun” argument. Lmfao. Please. It’s a Shuriken launcher not a shotgun. If it truly was a close range only weapon then it’s a pretty weak one. It should be able to drop larger targets pretty reliably if it has sacrificed range.

Whatever you keep on believing that the Eldar can only manage to produce “shotgun” weapons that are only useful for self defense

A weapon that’s useless if the enemy is beyond 50 feet.

A weapon that guarantees the only time the guardians can even contribute to a battle is when the enemy is about to charge them and blow them away or chop them up.

It’s truly stupid. GW used to have longer range weapons for guardians. Bring them back.

warpedpig wrote:
So the best the technologically advanced Eldar can manage is to give their guardians is an extremely close range weapon. Sure. They can’t even match the range of a lasgun. It’s ridiculous.

“Shotgun” argument. Lmfao. Please. It’s a Shuriken launcher not a shotgun. If it truly was a close range only weapon then it’s a pretty weak one. It should be able to drop larger targets pretty reliably if it has sacrificed range.

Whatever you keep on believing that the Eldar can only manage to produce “shotgun” weapons that are only useful for self defense

A weapon that’s useless if the enemy is beyond 50 feet.

A weapon that guarantees the only time the guardians can even contribute to a battle is when the enemy is about to charge them and blow them away or chop them up.

It’s truly stupid. GW used to have longer range weapons for guardians. Bring them back.

As is been pointed before somehwre between 2nd and 3rd editions GW took some odd choices for eldar guardians and make this mess.

Back in 2nd edition guardians had WS and BS equal to guardsmen and came with lasrifles, with the choice to *PAY* extra for the shuriken catapult wich was a beefed up Bolter (think it was even sligthy better than Stormbolters having and extra minus armor saves)

when 3rd hit GW removed the lasrifle option and gave guardians the shuriken catapult as default and only weapon (think this was part of a more thematic army sharing less weapons with the imperium, there was also a WD article saying in jest lower mon-keigh can't see the difference between old models of shuriken catapults and their lasrifles)

Somewhere later between 3rd and 5th i think they boosted guardians WS and BS and the current guardian rules we know.


My personal opinion is that shuriken catapults should become rapid fire 24" and -1 ap instead rend and their price be reduced to 6 points as storm guardians are valued now. Right now the eldar guardians prices (not even comenting similarities with other armies troops like guardsmen or tau) means we are paying 2 points just for 1x extra shuriken shoot.

 Lord Perversor wrote:


My personal opinion is that shuriken catapults should become rapid fire 24" and -1 ap instead rend and their price be reduced to 6 points as storm guardians are valued now. Right now the eldar guardians prices (not even comenting similarities with other armies troops like guardsmen or tau) means we are paying 2 points just for 1x extra shuriken shoot.

I'd be reluctant to just drop the price of a guardian defender though. As others have pointed out, guardians do currently have a place in competitive lists. Deepstriking blobs hit hard enough for their points and are durable enough with support that you see them in competitive settings. I think the math for AP-1 comes out very close to the current "bladestorm on 6+" rule shuriken weapons have, so your proposed change wouldn't change their maximum offense that much. So slashing the price on an already competitive unit seems like it would just be making a good thing cheaper.

Also, making shuriken catapults into rapid fire weapons would prevent you from shooting them on vehicles after advancing, so you produce some anti synergy for vectored engines, vypers, etc.

If we simply give guardians access to lasblasters (similar to the forgeworld corsair units), then we give them a way of performing a ranged function in both a fluff and mechanical sense. I don't think anyone would strongly oppose guardians suddenly having access to lasblasters in their next kit/codex. It doesn't seem like it would violate their established fluff. We'd all just go, "Yeah, they probably give guardians lasblasters when they expect to fight out in the open and shuriken catapults when they expect to fight in hallways."

The only thing with lasblasters is that the price tag might be too high. Corsairs with lasblasters get expensive fast. So maybe you give guardians a toned down version of the lasblaster the same way they have a toned down version of the avenger shuripult. Make it assault 3 or rapid fire 2 instead of assault 4.

Rapid fire not synergizing with Vehicles is a good point, although we could keep Shuricannons Assault for that very reason.

RF2 catapults at str3 Ap-1 at 18" would give them a bit more range, but still require getting closer to max out the gun's value. I'd hesitate to make them 24" because with the profile I've suggested, they'd be flat out better than currently, not to mention how it would affect Bikes.
Shuricannons could become 24" Str5 Ap-1 Assault 4

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Jetbikes/vipers etc could be given a special rule to treat RF weapons as Assault to make this work?

Aash wrote:
Jetbikes/vipers etc could be given a special rule to treat RF weapons as Assault to make this work?

I certainly think Vypers at least should treat all weapons as Assault, but that's for another thread.

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warpedpig wrote:

So the best the technologically advanced Eldar can manage is to give their guardians is an extremely close range weapon. Sure. They can’t even match the range of a lasgun. It’s ridiculous.

It's got substantially heavier hitting power than the Lasgun. Same effective range, half the maximum range, but far more damage - well over double the damage against some of the harder targets. Range is an important factor, but only one factor; the Shuriken Catapault outperforms in nearly all other factors.

“Shotgun” argument. Lmfao. Please. It’s a Shuriken launcher not a shotgun. If it truly was a close range only weapon then it’s a pretty weak one. It should be able to drop larger targets pretty reliably if it has sacrificed range.

It's not being compared to the mechanics of how a shotgun works. Only to the threat profile it produces; much lower maximum range, much higher impact at closer range. Perhaps "submachinegun" and/or "pistol" would be a better analogy.

Whatever you keep on believing that the Eldar can only manage to produce “shotgun” weapons that are only useful for self defense

Do you really think modern militaries don't use weapons optimized for shorter ranges, to complement weapons optimized for longer weapons?

A weapon that’s useless if the enemy is beyond 50 feet.

You're assuming a Rifle is useless beyond 100 feet. The distances in the game are an abstraction.

A weapon that guarantees the only time the guardians can even contribute to a battle is when the enemy is about to charge them and blow them away or chop them up.

Or when Guardians are manning a heavy weapon.
Or when Guardians are entrenched.
Or when Guardians are toting special weapons.
Or when Guardians ambush the enemy.
Or when Guardians are clearing a point.
Or when the enemy is trying to clear Guardians out of somewhere.

In other words, the weapon is useful any time Guardians are playing a specific part in a battle, instead of just manning the trench as line infantry.

It’s truly stupid. GW used to have longer range weapons for guardians. Bring them back.

I'd love for LasBlasters (or lighter versions) to be options again. But please don't take my Shuriken Catapaults. So I can take the right tool for the job. If I wanted generic line infantry, I wouldn't play a force predicated on not fighting pitched battles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Perversor wrote:

My personal opinion is that shuriken catapults should become rapid fire 24" and -1 ap instead rend and their price be reduced to 6 points as storm guardians are valued now. Right now the eldar guardians prices (not even comenting similarities with other armies troops like guardsmen or tau) means we are paying 2 points just for 1x extra shuriken shoot.

Even trading away pseudorending, that just becomes too strong.
IG are 24" RF AP0, with lower M, WS, and BS, for 4ppm - and many people think they should be 5ppm. 24" RF AP-1 would be a huge upgrade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think my ideal would be:
LasRifle: 24" A2 S3AP0

If CWE are going to have a longer-range option, it should be more about "perfection" than the standard rifle. So A2 instead of RF1 means they're intended for engaging enemies at 12-24" instead of 0-12". So it's the "perfect" tool for engaging beyond effective range of enemy infantry, but not long enough range to be fully immune (you can use Rangers for that...). And it's no better if they close in, as the weapon should be ideal for it's specific use case.

Bharring wrote:
If I wanted generic line infantry, I wouldn't play a force predicated on not fighting pitched battles.

Agreed and as a side note, I started Eldar in 4E because I wanted an army that could field ZERO line Infantry because Jetbikes were Troops.
Since that isn't feasible in 8E, I now field some Rangers to fill that role. Which are Troops with 36"...RIFLES.
True they may fill a more specialized role than other line Infantry, but that's kinda the point with Eldar. There are almost NO generalist units.

And that is probably the "breakdown" of understanding here. Those claiming GW is "stupid" for not giving Guardians a better sidearm are totally missing the point.
Yes, Eldar are more advanced, but they also have a FAR different ideology they us humans here in the 21st century.
We could propose changes to Catapults until we are blue in the face, but at the end of the day, Catapults are not supposed to allow Guardians to be a generalist Troop.
Dire Avengers are the closest unit Eldar have to fill that role. Almost all other units fill a very specific role.

And while the mindset of our species is to be adaptable, the mindset of 41st millennium CWE is to be specialized to the exclusion of all other roles. It's the whole reason they developed the Path system for their society.
Some may think that's dumb, but that's because they are an unevolved Mon'Keigh (just making a joke, not trying to be malicious).
On the table-top, this over specialization has put Eldar in the top teir for several editions, so maybe their basic Troops having a "garbage" weapon is on purpose to knock them down a peg

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Except when they were originally 24” and not 12”. So you gonna rationalize why 24” was right for a while and not right now?

warpedpig wrote:
Except when they were originally 24” and not 12”. So you gonna rationalize why 24” was right for a while and not right now?

Easily. Back then, Eldar didn't have a personality as they were just "Space Elves" and had almost copy-pastes of Imperial weapons. Seriously, this was the era in which the Wraithlord was called the Eldar "Dreadnought" and Guardians had lasguns.
IMO, giving them standard weapons that makes no sense FROM OUR MODERN HUMAN PERSPECTIVE actually goes a long way to show just how "alien" they actually are.
It makes sense BECAUSE it makes no sense

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Aash wrote:
I haven't played as Eldar in a very long time, (2nd/3rd edition) but back then, Guardians came armed with lasguns with 24" range and Dire Avengers were armed with the superior Shuriken Catapult (which IIRC was also 24" range, and had almost the same stats as a storm bolter)

I'm surprised that Guardians don't have an option for a normal troop weapon at longer range. I say bring back the option for a lasgun equivalent. (call it something else if you prefer).

It was actually better than a storm bolter. It had -2 armour (compared to the storm bolter -1), and all other stats were the same.

So it makes sense because it makes no sense. This is your argument.

How do you swallow that BS?

In every single way. Eldar should have vastly superior weapons and armor and technology. Period. Dot.

The idea that their basic infantry rifle doesn’t surpass the imperial weapons is absolutely senseless from a fluff point of view. But for playing the table top that’s the only reason it isn’t

Why is "tabletop" the universal excuse for something being dumb?

 Galef wrote:

warpedpig wrote:
Except when they were originally 24” and not 12”. So you gonna rationalize why 24” was right for a while and not right now?

Easily. Back then, Eldar didn't have a personality as they were just "Space Elves" and had almost copy-pastes of Imperial weapons. Seriously, this was the era in which the Wraithlord was called the Eldar "Dreadnought" and Guardians had lasguns.
IMO, giving them standard weapons that makes no sense FROM OUR MODERN HUMAN PERSPECTIVE actually goes a long way to show just how "alien" they actually are.
It makes sense BECAUSE it makes no sense

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But the Shuriken Catapult (at 24" range) was already different as a weapon to the Bolter. In fact, the Imperials had all the Shuriken Catapults taken away, and the different, 24" range Shuriken Catapult was made a main 'Eldar' weapon for their new Dire Avenger aspect warriors to make the Craftworlds more unique than the 10-man 1 heavy weapon + sergeant squads.

Also, there was actually likely contact between the Eldar and Humanity that caused a lot of cross pollination in terms of technology. Most of the Imperial modern tech from Laser and Plasma is likely Eldar derived.

And you base this “cross pollination” on what? Some theory that humans who have plasma guns blow up in their hands somehow are teaching the Eldar about laser and plasma technology. While there Eldar use the webways. Warp jump generators. D-weapons. Etc. all vastly superior technologies