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dan2026 wrote: It doesn't make any sense for me for Vect to even be on the battlefield.
This is the guy who has styled himself 'the living muse' a godlike figure wrapped in dredded mystery.
There is no reason that he would ever expose himself to actual danger, instead of acting via innumerable agents and proxies.
It doesn't make sense for ANY Faction leader like Chapter Masters, Guilliman, Dynastic Overlords, Farseers, high level Ethereals, etc. to see the field. They should be in command posts or doing their actual jobs of leading/running their collective faction. But this is 40K and we need Big Damn Hero/Villain moments, so just like Kirk/Picard/insert favorite Star Trek captain here, they leave where they should be.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
Red Corsair wrote: There is also the fact that he has already had a model. Every faction should get their big overlord to play with.
I wouldn't exactly cry foul if he did get a model but he's really the last faction overlord I could ever see fluff wise on an actual battlefield.
But that's just my opinion.
I would persoanlly prefer it if the Dark Eldar got back all the other characters who got discarded for not having models. Lady Malys, The Decapitator etc.
He certainly can be on the battlefield, but not boot on the ground fighting in CC with Jain Zar, with Incubi armor, and wargear on top, People who think it's Vect, are they even Dark Eldar players? He's an archon, and he would probably prefer sitting safely in the backline taking potshot with long range weapons.
He should be on his personal giant luxury yacht, drinking juice and surrounded by concubines and personal guard, and his yacht should have a Character rule. And some Tantalus-level gun.
Red Corsair wrote: There is also the fact that he has already had a model. Every faction should get their big overlord to play with.
I wouldn't exactly cry foul if he did get a model but he's really the last faction overlord I could ever see fluff wise on an actual battlefield.
But that's just my opinion.
I would persoanlly prefer it if the Dark Eldar got back all the other characters who got discarded for not having models. Lady Malys, The Decapitator etc.
He certainly can be on the battlefield, but not boot on the ground fighting in CC with Jain Zar, with Incubi armor, and wargear on top, People who think it's Vect, are they even Dark Eldar players? He's an archon, and he would probably prefer sitting safely in the backline taking potshot with long range weapons.
Which is why people aren't say that. They're saying the vehicle in the background that doesn't match any current Dark Eldar vehicles currently is his personal ride, the Dais of Destruction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/24 17:33:33
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
A long,long time ago, someone at GW (maybe Rick Priestly?) wrote in White Dwarf in response to a mailbag question (I think) to the effect that there would never be statlines to represent the Primarchs or the Emperor on the tabletop, because it would be ridiculous for such figures of legend to appear on a 40k battlefield. Many editions, Scibor not-Primarch models, and FW Horus Heresy books later, here we are.
I am afraid that, given the artwork, it'll be an overpriced big box with the two characters, a 5-squad of the new units and a pile of ancient Guardians / Kabalite sprues every Eldar player already owns in abundance bundled in.
Here's hoping that it's much more Shadowspear than Wake the Dead, eh?
Sunny Side Up wrote: I am afraid that, given the artwork, it'll be an overpriced big box with the two characters, a 5-squad of the new units and a pile of ancient Guardians / Kabalite sprues every Eldar player already owns in abundance bundled in.
A c'mon now. Don't you want another Falcon, Vyper and some Guardians? What about a War Walker? We could all use another War Walker, right?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/25 06:10:29
I am afraid that, given the artwork, it'll be an overpriced big box with the two characters, a 5-squad of the new units and a pile of ancient Guardians / Kabalite sprues every Eldar player already owns in abundance bundled in.
Here's hoping that it's much more Shadowspear than Wake the Dead, eh?
It would be nice to see more Shadowspear type boxes but I doubt we’ll get one for this release. If GW had any more to show I think they’d be moving at a much quicker pace.
That said the box could have only banshees, incubi and our characters as that’s all the units featured in the artwork and technically it’d be similar to shadowspear. Or there might not be any box set with this release.
I am afraid that, given the artwork, it'll be an overpriced big box with the two characters, a 5-squad of the new units and a pile of ancient Guardians / Kabalite sprues every Eldar player already owns in abundance bundled in.
Here's hoping that it's much more Shadowspear than Wake the Dead, eh?
It would be nice to see more Shadowspear type boxes but I doubt we’ll get one for this release. If GW had any more to show I think they’d be moving at a much quicker pace.
That said the box could have only banshees, incubi and our characters as that’s all the units featured in the artwork and technically it’d be similar to shadowspear. Or there might not be any box set with this release.
they could still add existing units to the box, if you look at tooth and claw for example, you can't realy see all the units in the box in the art work
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
A long,long time ago, someone at GW (maybe Rick Priestly?) wrote in White Dwarf in response to a mailbag question (I think) to the effect that there would never be statlines to represent the Primarchs or the Emperor on the tabletop, because it would be ridiculous for such figures of legend to appear on a 40k battlefield. Many editions, Scibor not-Primarch models, and FW Horus Heresy books later, here we are.
Time has moved on. Many other games with a have the heros and legends from their lore on the table as well, because most people buy, paint and play armies because they enjoy their lore, and that works the other way around as well. If you read about these characters' history and deeds, you want to use them your games.
You read all this awesome fluff about Gulliman, Dorn, The Lion or Leman Russ, and when you get to the rules part of their codex, you find a bunch of "I'm in charge while the boss is out for lunch"-type of characters instead of the guys that actually were part of the history that got everyone there. To me, Calgar, Vulkan He'stan, Lysander, Lucius, Azrael and many of the others have always felt like second rate leaders compared to Eldrad Ulthran, Ghazghkull Thrakka, Kairos Fateweaver, Vect, Farsight, the Swarmlord. Those guys were the real deal, the ones who were shaping history and are still doing it, while every single chapter and legion had to invent some reason why their primarch doesn't give a feth about humanity dying and a guy who had to keep his seat warm - few have managed to do that properly.
Therefore I welcome the return of those real leaders of the space marines, as long as GW provides them with non-insane rules.
For someone coming from MtG, a Legendary Creature was something awesome, because it meant that you could play that character you read about, who was quoted on many other cards and maybe even was a protagonist/antagonist in a novel. Many commander decks are built by picking a character from the background and spells that they would use, effectively playing that character. I never understood the dislike for named characters that many veterans have - IMO it stems from the times where GW told people how to properly have fun and everybody ate it up.
"A character doesn't show up for every little skirmish" is one of the most common arguments. I mean seriously? You can find a fluff reasons for rolling for a random mission, drawing mission objectives from a stack of cards, the presence of 32 guardsmen lead by two commanders super-charging a robot of the size of a multi-story building, space marine captains carrying invaluable relics that keep jumping to their deaths and that's what bothering you?
"Doesn't show up for every single skirmish" also applies to space marines in general, and especially to knights, grey knights or custodes.
WH40k games have stopped being skirmishes a long time ago.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
"A character doesn't show up for every little skirmish" is one of the most common arguments. I mean seriously? You can find a fluff reasons for rolling for a random mission, drawing mission objectives from a stack of cards, the presence of 32 guardsmen lead by two commanders super-charging a robot of the size of a multi-story building, space marine captains carrying invaluable relics that keep jumping to their deaths and that's what bothering you?
"Doesn't show up for every single skirmish" also applies to space marines in general, and especially to knights, grey knights or custodes.
WH40k games have stopped being skirmishes a long time ago.
This. And exalt. Lol.
I don't get why people want "fluff-accurate" 40k battles where all players worldwide are forced to play IG conscripts and guardsmen vs. ork boyz, and GW has a yearly lottery for 100 players worldwide to maybe bring a Veteran squad or a Big Mek for one game and 1 or 2 players worldwide to bring a unit of Tactical Marines or a unit of Meganobz for one game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/25 08:57:34
Time has moved on. Many other games with a have the heros and legends from their lore on the table as well, because most people buy, paint and play armies because they enjoy their lore, and that works the other way around as well. If you read about these characters' history and deeds, you want to use them your games.
You read all this awesome fluff about Gulliman, Dorn, The Lion or Leman Russ, and when you get to the rules part of their codex, you find a bunch of "I'm in charge while the boss is out for lunch"-type of characters instead of the guys that actually were part of the history that got everyone there. To me, Calgar, Vulkan He'stan, Lysander, Lucius, Azrael and many of the others have always felt like second rate leaders compared to Eldrad Ulthran, Ghazghkull Thrakka, Kairos Fateweaver, Vect, Farsight, the Swarmlord. Those guys were the real deal, the ones who were shaping history and are still doing it, while every single chapter and legion had to invent some reason why their primarch doesn't give a feth about humanity dying and a guy who had to keep his seat warm - few have managed to do that properly.
Therefore I welcome the return of those real leaders of the space marines, as long as GW provides them with non-insane rules.
For someone coming from MtG, a Legendary Creature was something awesome, because it meant that you could play that character you read about, who was quoted on many other cards and maybe even was a protagonist/antagonist in a novel. Many commander decks are built by picking a character from the background and spells that they would use, effectively playing that character. I never understood the dislike for named characters that many veterans have - IMO it stems from the times where GW told people how to properly have fun and everybody ate it up.
This is one of the reasons I think the HH project was a mistake, it has shifted the focus from 40k to 30k. So instead of HH being a mythos that helps understand how the factions got to where they are today, most of the factions identity and lore are concentrated in 30k, so in effect, the 40k faction is just a stunted version of their 30k faction. This is especially true for the traitor legions, less so for the loyalist.
Vect could be represented by a strategem, but GW would not make alot of money on that, would they?
Im kind of glad they didnt try to make a silver tower for K-sons. Instead they did a strategem, i think, and also warhammer quest for AoS.
Perhaps they could do a 40k version of warcry set in Vects dungeon arena to represent the living muse.
Anyway, you think banshees will follow the established aspect ratio of 6 warriors per box. That has always annoyed me. And banshees are such a horribly poor unit I feel there have to be a 10 model box to make it worth considering.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/09/25 11:37:20
This is one of the reasons I think the HH project was a mistake, it has shifted the focus from 40k to 30k. So instead of HH being a mythos that helps understand how the factions got to where they are today, most of the factions identity and lore are concentrated in 30k, so in effect, the 40k faction is just a stunted version of their 30k faction. This is especially true for the traitor legions, less so for the loyalist.
That was sort of always the case though. The chapters have always been explained as watered down versions of the legions, full of pomp and ceremony and rules that they don't understand the significance of.
I like the Heresy setting. It is fundamental to 40k in a way that other time frames of the setting aren't really. The Scouring? the Legions had been shaped to the Chapters already. shaped.
The Great Crusade? 40k/the Imperium isn't the way it is because of that. It was merely the expansion from Terra across the stars.
The Age of Apostasy? What changes in 40k if that doesn't happen?
The Heresy is key because it explain why the Chapters exist. It touches on the links and schism in Mars. How the Traitor Legions infest the galaxy. Why the Chaos powers are interested in humanity, and where there power comes from.
Is it essential to play/read it? I guess not as you can get a summary from rulebooks/codecies, but you miss a lot of the subtlety and nuance that the BL novels and FW black books can give.
As for the Guilliamn/Vect/etc/. on a battlefield, I always thought it was because you weren't playing out the whole war on that one 6'x4' space, but that it was a few hundred meters of a miles long battle line, for one battle on that continent, during a particular stage of the war for that planet/system.
Calgar and Eldrad were present because one had 'sought' out the other, whether that was because they were heading to the point of fiercest resistance to break the enemy, because the needed to decapitate enemy forces, the threads of Fate say they need to force certain conditions etc.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
A long,long time ago, someone at GW (maybe Rick Priestly?) wrote in White Dwarf in response to a mailbag question (I think) to the effect that there would never be statlines to represent the Primarchs or the Emperor on the tabletop, because it would be ridiculous for such figures of legend to appear on a 40k battlefield. Many editions, Scibor not-Primarch models, and FW Horus Heresy books later, here we are.
Time has moved on. Many other games with a have the heros and legends from their lore on the table as well, because most people buy, paint and play armies because they enjoy their lore, and that works the other way around as well. If you read about these characters' history and deeds, you want to use them your games.
You read all this awesome fluff about Gulliman, Dorn, The Lion or Leman Russ, and when you get to the rules part of their codex, you find a bunch of "I'm in charge while the boss is out for lunch"-type of characters instead of the guys that actually were part of the history that got everyone there. To me, Calgar, Vulkan He'stan, Lysander, Lucius, Azrael and many of the others have always felt like second rate leaders compared to Eldrad Ulthran, Ghazghkull Thrakka, Kairos Fateweaver, Vect, Farsight, the Swarmlord. Those guys were the real deal, the ones who were shaping history and are still doing it, while every single chapter and legion had to invent some reason why their primarch doesn't give a feth about humanity dying and a guy who had to keep his seat warm - few have managed to do that properly.
Therefore I welcome the return of those real leaders of the space marines, as long as GW provides them with non-insane rules.
For someone coming from MtG, a Legendary Creature was something awesome, because it meant that you could play that character you read about, who was quoted on many other cards and maybe even was a protagonist/antagonist in a novel. Many commander decks are built by picking a character from the background and spells that they would use, effectively playing that character. I never understood the dislike for named characters that many veterans have - IMO it stems from the times where GW told people how to properly have fun and everybody ate it up.
"A character doesn't show up for every little skirmish" is one of the most common arguments. I mean seriously? You can find a fluff reasons for rolling for a random mission, drawing mission objectives from a stack of cards, the presence of 32 guardsmen lead by two commanders super-charging a robot of the size of a multi-story building, space marine captains carrying invaluable relics that keep jumping to their deaths and that's what bothering you?
"Doesn't show up for every single skirmish" also applies to space marines in general, and especially to knights, grey knights or custodes.
WH40k games have stopped being skirmishes a long time ago.
The primarchs were never the prime movers of the 40k narrative. They were always background color, their ridiculous caricatured names and descriptions intended to give the reader a sense that the setting was an unreliable narrator, much like many 80s Grimdark settings like Judge Dredd and Robocop.
And now, Marine players have been fed this all-marines-all-the-time setting where they don't have to deal with any of the dramatic irony of the 41st millenium that occasionally makes them feel like their super duper heroes might be somewhat ignorant, regressed versions of their former glory instead of cool edgy atheists that know the emperor personally and have all the latest cutting-edge technology and they are not having it.
Demanding that we have Primarchs because Chapter Masters are not cool enough and not cutting it is like saying Ghazkhull isn't good enough because he's just the PROPHET of gork and mork and it's ridiculous that we can't bring either Gork OR Mork to the table? Who is this second fiddle kairos guy, GIVE ME A TZEENTCH MINIATURE!!
Calgar, Grimnar, and Azrael are not on some level below Ghazghull, Swarmlord or Eldrad. They're on the same level. Primarchs are the myths and legends of the setting, and it's obvious looking at the rules for Magnus, Guilliman and Mortarion that introducing more of them into the setting is condemning other factions to never having any heroes who could possibly make a dent in them. What can Ghazghkull ever hope to accomplish against Guilliman? He gets rocked in one turn by the Emperor's Sword and doesn't even take guilliman to half-health. And that's the weakest primarch that currently exists versus one of the best named characters from another faction at melee.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Shadenuat wrote: He should be on his personal giant luxury yacht, drinking juice and surrounded by concubines and personal guard, and his yacht should have a Character rule. And some Tantalus-level gun.
Sounds like a good lord of war choice and model (again) - def better than Santa Logan......
Also people forget Vecht and the other DE lords and ladies have contigencies in case they die - thats what Hormunclus are for.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
A long,long time ago, someone at GW (maybe Rick Priestly?) wrote in White Dwarf in response to a mailbag question (I think) to the effect that there would never be statlines to represent the Primarchs or the Emperor on the tabletop, because it would be ridiculous for such figures of legend to appear on a 40k battlefield. Many editions, Scibor not-Primarch models, and FW Horus Heresy books later, here we are.
Meanwhile, over in Epic at that same era, GeeDubs was all "here's your Daemon Primarchs!"
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
dan2026 wrote: It doesn't make any sense for me for Vect to even be on the battlefield.
This is the guy who has styled himself 'the living muse' a godlike figure wrapped in dredded mystery.
There is no reason that he would ever expose himself to actual danger, instead of acting via innumerable agents and proxies.
It doesn't make sense for ANY Faction leader like Chapter Masters, Guilliman, Dynastic Overlords, Farseers, high level Ethereals, etc. to see the field. They should be in command posts or doing their actual jobs of leading/running their collective faction. But this is 40K and we need Big Damn Hero/Villain moments, so just like Kirk/Picard/insert favorite Star Trek captain here, they leave where they should be.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
Being a faux roman, Guilliman knows that his power stems from the accolades of his soldiers, and knows that military command is where he is most secure in his power. Retreat to the capitol and start administering, and ambitious warlords you leave in charge start considering themselves above your law and out of your reach. Some of them may, secure in the loyalty of their men, declare themselves the new head of state and turn their armies towards those ends, as the emperor learned when he withdrew from the great crusade.
To try and hold court on Terra would cost Guilliman the imperium. Maintaining a mobile military court, as later Roman emperors did, is the best way to maintain the most important power base in a highly militarized and overly fractious realm. That of the military.
Time has moved on. Many other games with a have the heros and legends from their lore on the table as well, because most people buy, paint and play armies because they enjoy their lore, and that works the other way around as well. If you read about these characters' history and deeds, you want to use them your games.
You read all this awesome fluff about Gulliman, Dorn, The Lion or Leman Russ, and when you get to the rules part of their codex, you find a bunch of "I'm in charge while the boss is out for lunch"-type of characters instead of the guys that actually were part of the history that got everyone there. To me, Calgar, Vulkan He'stan, Lysander, Lucius, Azrael and many of the others have always felt like second rate leaders compared to Eldrad Ulthran, Ghazghkull Thrakka, Kairos Fateweaver, Vect, Farsight, the Swarmlord. Those guys were the real deal, the ones who were shaping history and are still doing it, while every single chapter and legion had to invent some reason why their primarch doesn't give a feth about humanity dying and a guy who had to keep his seat warm - few have managed to do that properly.
Therefore I welcome the return of those real leaders of the space marines, as long as GW provides them with non-insane rules.
For someone coming from MtG, a Legendary Creature was something awesome, because it meant that you could play that character you read about, who was quoted on many other cards and maybe even was a protagonist/antagonist in a novel. Many commander decks are built by picking a character from the background and spells that they would use, effectively playing that character. I never understood the dislike for named characters that many veterans have - IMO it stems from the times where GW told people how to properly have fun and everybody ate it up.
This is one of the reasons I think the HH project was a mistake, it has shifted the focus from 40k to 30k. So instead of HH being a mythos that helps understand how the factions got to where they are today, most of the factions identity and lore are concentrated in 30k, so in effect, the 40k faction is just a stunted version of their 30k faction. This is especially true for the traitor legions, less so for the loyalist.
I think this is a fair opinion, and while I disagree with it, I think it raises an important point. At least as far as the Loyalist and Chaos Space Marines are concerned, it does feel like 30k has a much more in-depth concentration of lore. Honestly I've taken to just using 30k resources to influence my 40k armies because by comparison the 40k Space Marine factions seem bland and shallow (thanks Codex Astartes). I think this could be remedied (more varied splash art, examples and explanations of heraldry, examples of specific Chapter/Warband cultures etc), but until/unless it is I definitely see it as one of the shortcomings of the current setting (again just in regards to Space Marines). Just my opinion though.
The 1st Legion
Interrogator-Chaplain Beremiah's Strike Force
The Tearers of Flesh
dan2026 wrote: It doesn't make any sense for me for Vect to even be on the battlefield.
This is the guy who has styled himself 'the living muse' a godlike figure wrapped in dredded mystery.
There is no reason that he would ever expose himself to actual danger, instead of acting via innumerable agents and proxies.
It doesn't make sense for ANY Faction leader like Chapter Masters, Guilliman, Dynastic Overlords, Farseers, high level Ethereals, etc. to see the field. They should be in command posts or doing their actual jobs of leading/running their collective faction. But this is 40K and we need Big Damn Hero/Villain moments, so just like Kirk/Picard/insert favorite Star Trek captain here, they leave where they should be.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
Truest exchange I have ever witnessed.
I want to put the whole thing in a banner
like a warning label on every named character box
similar to the warning labels found on cigarettes (in some places, at least) -
something really gruesome.
dan2026 wrote: It doesn't make any sense for me for Vect to even be on the battlefield.
This is the guy who has styled himself 'the living muse' a godlike figure wrapped in dredded mystery.
There is no reason that he would ever expose himself to actual danger, instead of acting via innumerable agents and proxies.
It doesn't make sense for ANY Faction leader like Chapter Masters, Guilliman, Dynastic Overlords, Farseers, high level Ethereals, etc. to see the field. They should be in command posts or doing their actual jobs of leading/running their collective faction. But this is 40K and we need Big Damn Hero/Villain moments, so just like Kirk/Picard/insert favorite Star Trek captain here, they leave where they should be.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
Truest exchange I have ever witnessed.
I want to put the whole thing in a banner
like a warning label on every named character box
similar to the warning labels found on cigarettes (in some places, at least) -
something really gruesome.
It's really more a critique of peoples gaming tables than the presence of special characters.
That was sort of always the case though. The chapters have always been explained as watered down versions of the legions, full of pomp and ceremony and rules that they don't understand the significance of.
I like the Heresy setting. It is fundamental to 40k in a way that other time frames of the setting aren't really. The Scouring? the Legions had been shaped to the Chapters already. shaped.
The Great Crusade? 40k/the Imperium isn't the way it is because of that. It was merely the expansion from Terra across the stars.
The Age of Apostasy? What changes in 40k if that doesn't happen?
The Heresy is key because it explain why the Chapters exist. It touches on the links and schism in Mars. How the Traitor Legions infest the galaxy. Why the Chaos powers are interested in humanity, and where there power comes from.
Is it essential to play/read it? I guess not as you can get a summary from rulebooks/codecies, but you miss a lot of the subtlety and nuance that the BL novels and FW black books can give.
I think this is a fair opinion, and while I disagree with it, I think it raises an important point. At least as far as the Loyalist and Chaos Space Marines are concerned, it does feel like 30k has a much more in-depth concentration of lore. Honestly I've taken to just using 30k resources to influence my 40k armies because by comparison the 40k Space Marine factions seem bland and shallow (thanks Codex Astartes). I think this could be remedied (more varied splash art, examples and explanations of heraldry, examples of specific Chapter/Warband cultures etc), but until/unless it is I definitely see it as one of the shortcomings of the current setting (again just in regards to Space Marines). Just my opinion though.
I like the HH as well, I loved reading about it in the old index astartes books, but I loved it as background/mythos that helped flesh out factions in 40k. I agree we have reached a point where many of the legions (especially the traitor ones) have more lore/fluff about them in 30k then in 40k, which is totally backwards IMO.
JSG wrote: It's really more a critique of peoples gaming tables than the presence of special characters.
Kinda.
To be clear, I don't have issues with special characters in games, just because I recognize that most games of 40K played aren't 'representative' anyway. Just look at the armies and tables, LOL. Usually they aren't straight out of the fluff and artwork anyway, so the presence of a Guilliman model usually doesn't shatter some kind of perfectly immersive experience.
In narrative gaming one might seek a higher level of immersion and push harder for more 'representation', but the beauty there is that you can forge a narrative to explain why said character is on said battlefield surrounded by said army.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
A long,long time ago, someone at GW (maybe Rick Priestly?) wrote in White Dwarf in response to a mailbag question (I think) to the effect that there would never be statlines to represent the Primarchs or the Emperor on the tabletop, because it would be ridiculous for such figures of legend to appear on a 40k battlefield. Many editions, Scibor not-Primarch models, and FW Horus Heresy books later, here we are.
Meanwhile, over in Epic at that same era, GeeDubs was all "here's your Daemon Primarchs!"
Then again that's not 40k battlefield but epic. More big scale battles rather than handfull random guys.
Time has moved on. Many other games with a have the heros and legends from their lore on the table as well, because most people buy, paint and play armies because they enjoy their lore, and that works the other way around as well. If you read about these characters' history and deeds, you want to use them your games.
You read all this awesome fluff about Gulliman, Dorn, The Lion or Leman Russ, and when you get to the rules part of their codex, you find a bunch of "I'm in charge while the boss is out for lunch"-type of characters instead of the guys that actually were part of the history that got everyone there. To me, Calgar, Vulkan He'stan, Lysander, Lucius, Azrael and many of the others have always felt like second rate leaders compared to Eldrad Ulthran, Ghazghkull Thrakka, Kairos Fateweaver, Vect, Farsight, the Swarmlord. Those guys were the real deal, the ones who were shaping history and are still doing it, while every single chapter and legion had to invent some reason why their primarch doesn't give a feth about humanity dying and a guy who had to keep his seat warm - few have managed to do that properly.
Therefore I welcome the return of those real leaders of the space marines, as long as GW provides them with non-insane rules.
For someone coming from MtG, a Legendary Creature was something awesome, because it meant that you could play that character you read about, who was quoted on many other cards and maybe even was a protagonist/antagonist in a novel. Many commander decks are built by picking a character from the background and spells that they would use, effectively playing that character. I never understood the dislike for named characters that many veterans have - IMO it stems from the times where GW told people how to properly have fun and everybody ate it up.
This is one of the reasons I think the HH project was a mistake, it has shifted the focus from 40k to 30k. So instead of HH being a mythos that helps understand how the factions got to where they are today, most of the factions identity and lore are concentrated in 30k, so in effect, the 40k faction is just a stunted version of their 30k faction. This is especially true for the traitor legions, less so for the loyalist.
I got this impression when picking up the game in 5th though - long before 30k and the Horus Heresy novels.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
A long,long time ago, someone at GW (maybe Rick Priestly?) wrote in White Dwarf in response to a mailbag question (I think) to the effect that there would never be statlines to represent the Primarchs or the Emperor on the tabletop, because it would be ridiculous for such figures of legend to appear on a 40k battlefield. Many editions, Scibor not-Primarch models, and FW Horus Heresy books later, here we are.
Meanwhile, over in Epic at that same era, GeeDubs was all "here's your Daemon Primarchs!"
Then again that's not 40k battlefield but epic. More big scale battles rather than handfull random guys.
Epic 40K was still a 40K battlefield. ;P
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Yeah, I don't envision Guilliman leaving his business to Terra to arrive in all his glory on some nondescript world to battle a bunch of grey gribblies amidst a bunch of shipping containers. Yet this scenario happens on tabletops all over. Curious...
A long,long time ago, someone at GW (maybe Rick Priestly?) wrote in White Dwarf in response to a mailbag question (I think) to the effect that there would never be statlines to represent the Primarchs or the Emperor on the tabletop, because it would be ridiculous for such figures of legend to appear on a 40k battlefield. Many editions, Scibor not-Primarch models, and FW Horus Heresy books later, here we are.
Time has moved on. Many other games with a have the heros and legends from their lore on the table as well, because most people buy, paint and play armies because they enjoy their lore, and that works the other way around as well. If you read about these characters' history and deeds, you want to use them your games.
You read all this awesome fluff about Gulliman, Dorn, The Lion or Leman Russ, and when you get to the rules part of their codex, you find a bunch of "I'm in charge while the boss is out for lunch"-type of characters instead of the guys that actually were part of the history that got everyone there. To me, Calgar, Vulkan He'stan, Lysander, Lucius, Azrael and many of the others have always felt like second rate leaders compared to Eldrad Ulthran, Ghazghkull Thrakka, Kairos Fateweaver, Vect, Farsight, the Swarmlord. Those guys were the real deal, the ones who were shaping history and are still doing it, while every single chapter and legion had to invent some reason why their primarch doesn't give a feth about humanity dying and a guy who had to keep his seat warm - few have managed to do that properly.
Therefore I welcome the return of those real leaders of the space marines, as long as GW provides them with non-insane rules.
For someone coming from MtG, a Legendary Creature was something awesome, because it meant that you could play that character you read about, who was quoted on many other cards and maybe even was a protagonist/antagonist in a novel. Many commander decks are built by picking a character from the background and spells that they would use, effectively playing that character. I never understood the dislike for named characters that many veterans have - IMO it stems from the times where GW told people how to properly have fun and everybody ate it up.
"A character doesn't show up for every little skirmish" is one of the most common arguments. I mean seriously? You can find a fluff reasons for rolling for a random mission, drawing mission objectives from a stack of cards, the presence of 32 guardsmen lead by two commanders super-charging a robot of the size of a multi-story building, space marine captains carrying invaluable relics that keep jumping to their deaths and that's what bothering you?
"Doesn't show up for every single skirmish" also applies to space marines in general, and especially to knights, grey knights or custodes.
WH40k games have stopped being skirmishes a long time ago.
The primarchs were never the prime movers of the 40k narrative. They were always background color, their ridiculous caricatured names and descriptions intended to give the reader a sense that the setting was an unreliable narrator, much like many 80s Grimdark settings like Judge Dredd and Robocop.
And now, Marine players have been fed this all-marines-all-the-time setting where they don't have to deal with any of the dramatic irony of the 41st millenium that occasionally makes them feel like their super duper heroes might be somewhat ignorant, regressed versions of their former glory instead of cool edgy atheists that know the emperor personally and have all the latest cutting-edge technology and they are not having it.
Demanding that we have Primarchs because Chapter Masters are not cool enough and not cutting it is like saying Ghazkhull isn't good enough because he's just the PROPHET of gork and mork and it's ridiculous that we can't bring either Gork OR Mork to the table? Who is this second fiddle kairos guy, GIVE ME A TZEENTCH MINIATURE!!
Calgar, Grimnar, and Azrael are not on some level below Ghazghull, Swarmlord or Eldrad. They're on the same level. Primarchs are the myths and legends of the setting, and it's obvious looking at the rules for Magnus, Guilliman and Mortarion that introducing more of them into the setting is condemning other factions to never having any heroes who could possibly make a dent in them. What can Ghazghkull ever hope to accomplish against Guilliman? He gets rocked in one turn by the Emperor's Sword and doesn't even take guilliman to half-health. And that's the weakest primarch that currently exists versus one of the best named characters from another faction at melee.
That's largely a problem with how characters in the non-Space Marine factions have been implemented into the game though, not an issue with the primarchs either themselves or as a concept.
Why for example are Eldar players allowed to field the Phoenix Lords? They are each singular monolithic icons of not only their respective temple but also representative of the path system, the very societal essence of the Craftworld Eldar, and have histories stretching all the way back to the Fall. Honestly every description of them makes them sound like they should be threats on the level of a Primarch, and yet they are basically just a slightly better Exarch...
Avatar of Khaine, a temporary partial reincarnation of the Eldar god of war requiring significant sacrifice and only considered for use in the most desperate of times. Apparently not on the level of even a singular Chapter Master given how many have been dumpstered in the lore.
Let's also not forget that you can field some of the greatest champion demons of all four Chaos gods such as Skarbrand, Epidemius, Kairos Fateweaker, etc. All apparently not Primarch level threats.
From 4e-5e you could field two of the actual C'tan, specifically the Nightbringer who was the greatest remaining martially gifted C'tan. Even now you can still field C'tan shards which are I guess just a minor threat escalation?
The point being that based on their positions within the lore I would argue that all of these should be at or above Primarch level threats, not just a "send Dante and some unnamed Sanguinary Meatshield to take care of it" problem. I say all of that as a marine player who has been part of the hobby since 4e.
Most of the non-marine named characters have been Worf-ed because they have been forced to get slapped around by Blue Chapter Master, Red Chapter Master, Green Chapter Master, etc since the earliest lore.
Honestly it would have probably been better for the overall setting if the primarchs had been around the whole time since "the Nightbringer gets barely beaten by Guilliman" is much less embarrassing than "Nightbringer gets suplexed by Uriel Ventris". If anything the HH has reduced the power level of the Primarchs since we get to see them slapped around by all sorts of random Xenos, demons, and each other. Heck, the custodes which are now in 40k, are apparently able to take on Primarchs if you chose a long enough named one and put them in the right combat scenario.
So yeah, I don't know, but the idea that the Primarchs are "too big for 40k" just seems pretty laughable when you stop to consider all the other rediculous stuff running around gaming tables since the start of the game.
The old RPG maxim of "Give it stats and the players will find a way to kill it" holds true when it comes to Primarchs or any other characters.
Once something is given stats, it is given limitations and weaknesses, which means however unlikely it is possible to defeat it and make it look bad. Could a Gretchin defeat Guilliman? Unlikely but given enough time, enough games, somewhere out there it is going to happen.
The 1st Legion
Interrogator-Chaplain Beremiah's Strike Force
The Tearers of Flesh 
