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Drager wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Should a Phoenix Lord be able to go toe-to-toe with Marneus Calgar?

No, they should one sidedly butcher calgar.

 Imateria wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Should a Phoenix Lord be able to go toe-to-toe with Marneus Calgar?

The combat ones like Jain Zar and Karandras should tear him to pieces.

Funny how right now the opposite is true.

It isn't particularly funny. Many combat characters and units are one-shot glass cannons (or useless). Its just how the edition is designed.

Likewise, Phoenix Lords should wipe the floor with normal marine Calgar.
[troll]However, Primaris Calgar should wipe the floor with them, of course!![/troll]

 slave.entity wrote:

Drager wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Should a Phoenix Lord be able to go toe-to-toe with Marneus Calgar?

No, they should one sidedly butcher calgar.

 Imateria wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Should a Phoenix Lord be able to go toe-to-toe with Marneus Calgar?

The combat ones like Jain Zar and Karandras should tear him to pieces.

Funny how right now the opposite is true.

Seems like the Eldar players need to cool it with the fanfic.

I don't care what mary sue my miniatures need or have to butcher to be worthy, I just want them to be worthy of inclusion into the army because of some unique role they can fill well. Jain Zar is actually not bad as a pocket untargetable unit of Banshees goes, with Disarm she really was a swiss knife of rules. Giving her invul as a checkmark (because with 2+, a 5++ can be situational) and +1A would be enough for me. And extra wound would be amazing-tier.

As is, I expected nothing, and am still disappointed.

 Shadenuat wrote:
I don't care what mary sue my miniatures need or have to butcher to be worthy, I just want them to be worthy of inclusion into the army because of some unique role they can fill well. Jain Zar is actually not bad as a pocket untargetable unit of Banshees goes, with Disarm she really was a swiss knife of rules. Giving her invul as a checkmark (because with 2+, a 5++ can be situational) and +1A would be enough for me. And extra wound would be amazing-tier.

As is, I expected nothing, and am still disappointed.

Yeah, having her at 4A is pretty stupid. Honestly, the attacks stat of most Eldar close combat specialists outside of the Harlequins 'dex is pretty stupid. Close combat specialist Succubi have 4A....backline general aristocrat Archons have...5? Why?

I've always said that I don't give a gak if my Eldar are the strongest, or the toughest, because they're not supposed to be those things. What they SHOULD be is the fastest - which in 8th edition should translate to their Move stat, and their attacks.

The fact that all marine captains and better on the charge or when charged (So, pretty much every turn) have a higher attack stat than the Eldar pheonix lords and close combat specialists is dumb. I'm sorry. Marines are already strongest, they're already toughest, they've already got the best and most useful command aura abilities, some other supposedly elite faction is allowed to have characters with higher attacks stats.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
I don't care what mary sue my miniatures need or have to butcher to be worthy, I just want them to be worthy of inclusion into the army because of some unique role they can fill well. Jain Zar is actually not bad as a pocket untargetable unit of Banshees goes, with Disarm she really was a swiss knife of rules. Giving her invul as a checkmark (because with 2+, a 5++ can be situational) and +1A would be enough for me. And extra wound would be amazing-tier.

As is, I expected nothing, and am still disappointed.

Yeah, having her at 4A is pretty stupid. Honestly, the attacks stat of most Eldar close combat specialists outside of the Harlequins 'dex is pretty stupid. Close combat specialist Succubi have 4A....backline general aristocrat Archons have...5? Why?

I've always said that I don't give a gak if my Eldar are the strongest, or the toughest, because they're not supposed to be those things. What they SHOULD be is the fastest - which in 8th edition should translate to their Move stat, and their attacks.

The fact that all marine captains and better on the charge or when charged (So, pretty much every turn) have a higher attack stat than the Eldar pheonix lords and close combat specialists is dumb. I'm sorry. Marines are already strongest, they're already toughest, they've already got the best and most useful command aura abilities, some other supposedly elite faction is allowed to have characters with higher attacks stats.

Banshees and scorpions having 2A this edition never made any sense for the purposes of either fluff or balance. Even ork boyz have more

Cronch wrote:
Ah, so demi-gods can only be matched by actual gods of other races, I see. Man, GW should just delete Xenos since they can't compete with Humanity

I think you're being intentionally obtuse, at no point did i say the Primarchs should be punching out Khorne and nicking his favorite seat atop his throne of skulls.

I said that Primarchs; being practically demi-gods from the seed of the Emperor, are on the same footing as beings who are splinters of shattered Gods or the greatest Champions of various Gods who are imbued with a portion of that God's strength. Surely that isn't a controversial stance to take.

The Phoenix Lords aren't and shouldn't be on par with The Avatar/Greater Daemons/C'tan shards, Primarchs are because of their practically demi-god like origins.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Likewise, Phoenix Lords should wipe the floor with normal marine Calgar.
[troll]However, Primaris Calgar should wipe the floor with them, of course!![/troll]

The only Eldar character that can get even close to threatening calgar is the avatar of khaine, ironically enough. Because it will often deal 3 damage to him with its melta sword, and the 5++ 5+++ is pretty good at staying alive.

All the other pheonix lords deal about 2 damage to the guy and get splatterized in one round

Any one seen the Imperial fist leaks by valrak??

 slave.entity wrote:
Should a Phoenix Lord be able to go toe-to-toe with Marneus Calgar?

Yes, though only very briefly as Calgar should be shredder pretty quickly.

Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.

kingheff wrote:
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.

Asurmen dies in two rounds after getting Calgar to just past half hp.

Fuehan does worse but lasts the same number of rounds.

kingheff wrote:
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.

Calgar has more A, W, T and S, none of the Phoenix Lords can remotely match that, though ironically Drazhar's fight twice and +1 to wound abilities mean can do some damage befor dying. It's really sad how GW are content to leave the Phoenix Lords with effectively 3rd ed stats in 8th.

kingheff wrote:
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.

I think this has kinda revealed our answer whether intentional or not as to why Jain Zar is not the character killer we thought/think she should be - GW have other Phoenix Lords for that and see Jain Zar as another role (horde killing maybe?). After all the aspects are supposed to focus on one particular aspect of warfare, it makes sense that their Phoenix Lord would be as specialised. Kinda. Maybe.

I suspect Karandras would be a character killer/assassin when he's redone.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

kingheff wrote:
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.

I think this has kinda revealed our answer whether intentional or not as to why Jain Zar is not the character killer we thought/think she should be - GW have other Phoenix Lords for that and see Jain Zar as another role (horde killing maybe?). After all the aspects are supposed to focus on one particular aspect of warfare, it makes sense that their Phoenix Lord would be as specialised. Kinda. Maybe.

I suspect Karandras would be a character killer/assassin when he's redone.

The one thing I keep coming back to when thinking about Jain's possible role is that she's maybe meant to be the castle killer, not a horde killer. Got an opponent who's wrapped up all of his units in a 3" bubble around a character? Shoot their screens, then get her to charge in ignoring overwatch and shred them.

I don't think she's going to be very good in that role but I could potentially see it as GW's intention for her.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Any one seen the Imperial fist leaks by valrak??

There's a new leak besides the Tor character?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

kingheff wrote:
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.

I think this has kinda revealed our answer whether intentional or not as to why Jain Zar is not the character killer we thought/think she should be - GW have other Phoenix Lords for that and see Jain Zar as another role (horde killing maybe?). After all the aspects are supposed to focus on one particular aspect of warfare, it makes sense that their Phoenix Lord would be as specialised. Kinda. Maybe.

I suspect Karandras would be a character killer/assassin when he's redone.

It makes more sense for Kara to be the character killer since he deals Mortal Wounds and is a stealth guy and stuff.

That said the Phoenix Lords should have 5 attacks minimum at least.

Basically the low attacks issue is an 8th issue. Almost every CC character or unit does not have enough attacks barring a few obvious exceptions like berserkers or Steelers. Daemon prince 4 attacks base. Warp talons. 1 attack base. And there are so many more across all armies.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Any one seen the Imperial fist leaks by valrak??

There's a new leak besides the Tor character?

yup, I'll post it ion a marine focused thread

 xeen wrote:
Basically the low attacks issue is an 8th issue. Almost every CC character or unit does not have enough attacks barring a few obvious exceptions like berserkers or Steelers. Daemon prince 4 attacks base. Warp talons. 1 attack base. And there are so many more across all armies.

Don't Daemon Princes have 5 base? Most of the units that don't have many attacks are the ones that have been left behind with stats that haven't really changed since 3rd ed, like Phoenix Lords. There are plenty of units though that have been given both the quantity and/or quality of attacks that are needed, GW just take a scattershot approach to who gets it and in some cases skip complete codexes in this matter (like Craftworlds).

 Imateria wrote:

 xeen wrote:
Basically the low attacks issue is an 8th issue. Almost every CC character or unit does not have enough attacks barring a few obvious exceptions like berserkers or Steelers. Daemon prince 4 attacks base. Warp talons. 1 attack base. And there are so many more across all armies.

Don't Daemon Princes have 5 base? Most of the units that don't have many attacks are the ones that have been left behind with stats that haven't really changed since 3rd ed, like Phoenix Lords. There are plenty of units though that have been given both the quantity and/or quality of attacks that are needed, GW just take a scattershot approach to who gets it and in some cases skip complete codexes in this matter (like Craftworlds).

As xeen said in his post, Princes technically have 4 base but always get 1 extra from their talon (3 extra if they take the pair)

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

kingheff wrote:
Asurman is a decent match for calgar, 5 S5 -3 d3 damage attacks hitting on twos and causing d3 mortals on a six to wound with a 2+ 3++.
Fuegan isn't bad either, 4 S5 attacks, going up to 6 s7 -4 d3 damage attacks after he's wounded with a 2+ 5+++.

I think this has kinda revealed our answer whether intentional or not as to why Jain Zar is not the character killer we thought/think she should be - GW have other Phoenix Lords for that and see Jain Zar as another role (horde killing maybe?). After all the aspects are supposed to focus on one particular aspect of warfare, it makes sense that their Phoenix Lord would be as specialised. Kinda. Maybe.

I suspect Karandras would be a character killer/assassin when he's redone.

It looks pretty obvious they're not doing anything good with the Phoenix Lords. Hopefully, the backlash is loud enough for GW to hear.

Nah. The boxset that is half ancient sculpts and 30% more expensive than the all new kits Shadowspear not selling out will just reinforce the Marines first mentality.

 Eldarain wrote:
Nah. The boxset that is half ancient sculpts and 30% more expensive than the all new kits Shadowspear not selling out will just reinforce the Marines first mentality.

sadly you're proably right, Wake the dead also sold out a lot faster then most boxes and GW will if the eldar set under sells proably point to those two date points as proof eldar just aren't selling (even though wake the dead suffered more due to primaris box fatigue then anything. I think at this point everyone has more hellblasters and intercessors then they know what to do with)

I reckon this box would sell well and the price epidemic continue. Because people will just suck it up and buy it with their 25% off from their store.

Man I really miss Death Masque and Burning of Prospero, they had insane value but without the insane price.

Chopstick wrote:
I reckon this box would sell well and the price epidemic continue. Because people will just suck it up and buy it with their 25% off from their store.

Man I really miss Death Masque and Burning of Prospero, they had insane value but without the insane price.

Calith was IMHO the best value simply due to being ALL Space Marines.

That prospero had pretty similar value...

tneva82 wrote:
That prospero had pretty similar value...

it did but traded some of the stuff for custodes and sisters. Calith meanwhile was a single force and thus made for an awesome "army in a box"couse I bought both of em, but yeah for awhile I was basicly reccomending calith over the starter set for marine intreasted people

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
That prospero had pretty similar value...

it did but traded some of the stuff for custodes and sisters. Calith meanwhile was a single force and thus made for an awesome "army in a box"couse I bought both of em, but yeah for awhile I was basicly reccomending calith over the starter set for marine intreasted people

Yeah, Calth was probably the best box recently in terms of sheer value to a single player. I added 30 tacticals, 5 Cataphractii, Chaplain, Cat Capt & a relic contemptor in one fell swoop.

name another box before or since with that much bang for your buck for one faction?

everyone saying the eldar box sucks, but as a ynarri only player it makes sense(not that I'm buying it...cuz Sororitas), just not from a competitive viewpoint. yes it sucks it's not whole squads, that it's not a raider & wave serpent, etc...but as someone who doesn't own any of the included models, it looks appealing.

ad chances are if banshees where squads of 10 before, we'll see their new data sheet being size 5-10