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Tastyfish wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

If they don't fix legion traits then it isn't "codex supplement tier support".

As far as your explanation on the older marks of terminator armour how would you explain chaos having their own versions of contemptors, sicarans, fellblades, etc.? Chaos can maintain things as well. They're not all frothing maniacs as many loyalists claim.

The chapter traits in the supplements are the same as the traits in the codex, there's no update there. Just unique strats, relics and warlord traits. Prayers for Word Bearers would be nice, though guess they can get the full range of marked ones already.
If there wasn't an update in the Chaos marine codex, there's probably not going to be an update here.

As for the relic tanks, those are FW units so wouldn't appear in a codex anyway, and let me say an AdMech player I'm only too aware that some 30K models are staying in 30K.

The concern Chaos players have is that Loyalist traits all now have two parts to them, as opposed to most Chaos traits only having one. And if Chaos traits are passed on to all units like Loyalist ones are, then some Legions need a little something extra: re-rolling Morale tests doesn't apply to Word Bearer vehicles, and getting 6" extra range on spells matters not at all to tanks.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
- deleted -

Screw this, let's not derail the thread.

Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.

Bro, Dark Angels do not have any of the chaplain rules, nor do they have the doctrines.

Those chapters you mentioned are red headed step children compared to vanilla Marines right now and still waiting on the cheese
They're also not comparable to the other goodies in the supplements for the vanilla marine chapters.

Bro, your poor, poor Dark Angels got
- a specialist detachment with warlord trait, relic and stratagems
- vanguard space marines, including six kits and psychic powers
- free weapon upgrades through Codex:SM
- four additional kits from Codex: SM

You do realize I'm asking for less than that for DG?

 Jidmah wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
- deleted -

Screw this, let's not derail the thread.

Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.

Bro, Dark Angels do not have any of the chaplain rules, nor do they have the doctrines.

Those chapters you mentioned are red headed step children compared to vanilla Marines right now and still waiting on the cheese
They're also not comparable to the other goodies in the supplements for the vanilla marine chapters.

Bro, your poor, poor Dark Angels got
- a specialist detachment with warlord trait, relic and stratagems
- vanguard space marines, including six kits and psychic powers
- free weapon upgrades through Codex:SM
- four additional kits from Codex: SM

You do realize I'm asking for less than that for DG?

You aren't asking for anything. You're complaining. Unless you think someone at GW is reading your posts.

I'm literally responding to people complaining about me expressing my disappointment that Death Guard apparently no longer are considered a chaos legion.

A fair amount of those are claiming that some loyalist have had it worse because they got slightly less than the faction who got the most updates of all.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'm literally responding to people complaining about me expressing my disappointment that Death Guard apparently no longer are considered a chaos legion.

A fair amount of those are claiming that some loyalist have had it worse because they got slightly less than the faction who got the most updates of all.

And I've had to read about 2 pages of comments along the lines of "Poor you" "Cry more" "Wa Wa", essentially grown men (presumably) telling other grown men that they're cry babies, like it's some sort of playground. feth me man. It makes me weary sometimes.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Tastyfish wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

If they don't fix legion traits then it isn't "codex supplement tier support".

As far as your explanation on the older marks of terminator armour how would you explain chaos having their own versions of contemptors, sicarans, fellblades, etc.? Chaos can maintain things as well. They're not all frothing maniacs as many loyalists claim.

The chapter traits in the supplements are the same as the traits in the codex, there's no update there. Just unique strats, relics and warlord traits. Prayers for Word Bearers would be nice, though guess they can get the full range of marked ones already.
If there wasn't an update in the Chaos marine codex, there's probably not going to be an update here.

As for the relic tanks, those are FW units so wouldn't appear in a codex anyway, and let me say an AdMech player I'm only too aware that some 30K models are staying in 30K.

The concern Chaos players have is that Loyalist traits all now have two parts to them, as opposed to most Chaos traits only having one. And if Chaos traits are passed on to all units like Loyalist ones are, then some Legions need a little something extra: re-rolling Morale tests doesn't apply to Word Bearer vehicles, and getting 6" extra range on spells matters not at all to tanks.

I get that, but these aren't going to change in this book and the major marine changes didn't happen in the supplements. So when they say it's like a supplement - chances are it'll be like the marine supplements.
I think if we were seeing a make your own warband rule system, it would have been advertised already. It might be possible, but I expect we'll see that in a future book that's looking at Renegades rather than the Legions.

And without that I doubt we'd see the dual system. Plus honestly chaos would possibly benefit more from having God/Legion work as a dual system - so if everything is Khorne it gets the Khorne trait and if there is only one Legion trait within that, you get that too on your marines and helbrutes. But we'll probably need to wait til Armageddon and some kind of Daemonkin for that sort of change.

Tastyfish wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Tastyfish wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

If they don't fix legion traits then it isn't "codex supplement tier support".

As far as your explanation on the older marks of terminator armour how would you explain chaos having their own versions of contemptors, sicarans, fellblades, etc.? Chaos can maintain things as well. They're not all frothing maniacs as many loyalists claim.

The chapter traits in the supplements are the same as the traits in the codex, there's no update there. Just unique strats, relics and warlord traits. Prayers for Word Bearers would be nice, though guess they can get the full range of marked ones already.
If there wasn't an update in the Chaos marine codex, there's probably not going to be an update here.

As for the relic tanks, those are FW units so wouldn't appear in a codex anyway, and let me say an AdMech player I'm only too aware that some 30K models are staying in 30K.

The concern Chaos players have is that Loyalist traits all now have two parts to them, as opposed to most Chaos traits only having one. And if Chaos traits are passed on to all units like Loyalist ones are, then some Legions need a little something extra: re-rolling Morale tests doesn't apply to Word Bearer vehicles, and getting 6" extra range on spells matters not at all to tanks.

I get that, but these aren't going to change in this book and the major marine changes didn't happen in the supplements. So when they say it's like a supplement - chances are it'll be like the marine supplements.
I think if we were seeing a make your own warband rule system, it would have been advertised already. It might be possible, but I expect we'll see that in a future book that's looking at Renegades rather than the Legions.

And without that I doubt we'd see the dual system. Plus honestly chaos would possibly benefit more from having God/Legion work as a dual system - so if everything is Khorne it gets the Khorne trait and if there is only one Legion trait within that, you get that too on your marines and helbrutes. But we'll probably need to wait til Armageddon and some kind of Daemonkin for that sort of change.

As I've said I doubt csm will get what we need to equal sm in pa2. But nothing would prevent gw from doing that other than selling more books at a later date.

As for basing csm rules on marks/chaos gods, if one of the prime reasons for these rules changes is to add to the character of the legions and make them play more like the fluff suggests then that wouldn't work for all legions. Some legions don't worship chaos like night lords. We had legion rules in 7th that didn't require taking marks so I see no reason we can't have them in 8th.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'm literally responding to people complaining about me expressing my disappointment that Death Guard apparently no longer are considered a chaos legion.

A fair amount of those are claiming that some loyalist have had it worse because they got slightly less than the faction who got the most updates of all.

The book very evidently is targeting the legions in the chaos space marine codex, as death guard are a separate codex it's afe to say they will be considered a separate entity and hopefully handled in a separate book.

Dudeface wrote:
The book very evidently is targeting the legions in the chaos space marine codex, as death guard are a separate codex it's afe to say they will be considered a separate entity and hopefully handled in a separate book.

Considering how they have been forgotten for every other "legions" update, I'm not too hopeful about that.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
The book very evidently is targeting the legions in the chaos space marine codex, as death guard are a separate codex it's afe to say they will be considered a separate entity and hopefully handled in a separate book.

Considering how they have been forgotten for every other "legions" update, I'm not too hopeful about that.

They already listed all the factions that will get new rules in PA and DG is clearly there:



DG and 1KS are now like DA, BA and SW, they're treated as a separate book from their parent codex. Sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad.

With the amount of legions they are touching on in this book i would not expect much. My guess is each one will get about the black legion treatment from vigilus.

e.g.
No legion trait change (forget about that)
page of strats
page of relics and / or powers
page of WL traits
page of tac obj nonsense

With BT even if they just did that its 28 pages of rules for all 7 of them combined

The first PA book had what about 40 pages of rules? that had a lot of unit reprints and fluff / images so maybe take 5-10 off that.

So i'd say the above is what to expect, 4-5 pages per legion

Phoenix Rising only had 30 pages of actual rules, and 11 of those were (mostly unchanged) reprints from White Dwarf. I'd adjust expectations accordingly.

New short story is up:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/04/psychic-awakening-keeping-ordergw-homepage-post-4/

I was very hopeful for getting a new BT character, or perhaps an updated model. I really need to stop reading the rumor mill stuff..... however if the content BT get's in the Vol2 book is good, perhaps its not a total loss.

On the plus side, my wallet won't be hurting as much this holiday season.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
The book very evidently is targeting the legions in the chaos space marine codex, as death guard are a separate codex it's afe to say they will be considered a separate entity and hopefully handled in a separate book.

Considering how they have been forgotten for every other "legions" update, I'm not too hopeful about that.

What other legions updates have the missed? If you're referring to vigilus that was chaos space marines 2.0 and nothing to do with death guard or t.sons.

Their time will come, as will thousand sons in sure.

Does anyone think these Supplement esque legion updates will bring them up speed with loyalists? I'm hoping boosted traits, hopefully mirroring, and that they effect all vehicles

 KingCorpus wrote:
Does anyone think these Supplement esque legion updates will bring them up speed with loyalists? I'm hoping boosted traits, hopefully mirroring, and that they effect all vehicles

I'd be very surprised if they get that much, I'm expecting something more like Vigilus.

 KingCorpus wrote:
Does anyone think these Supplement esque legion updates will bring them up speed with loyalists? I'm hoping boosted traits, hopefully mirroring, and that they effect all vehicles

Watch. Vehicles still won't get traits, Cultists will be left at 5 points for reasons, Chaos Marines will still be 13 points, and the Legion rules will still be bad just like the non-updated Black Legion one is.

 KingCorpus wrote:
Does anyone think these Supplement esque legion updates will bring them up speed with loyalists? I'm hoping boosted traits, hopefully mirroring, and that they effect all vehicles

According to the current rumours: no traits for CSM vehicles, no "doctrines" for CSM, the CSM legions in the book will each get a page of relics, warlord traits and stratagems each. Full stop.
Don't get your hopes up.

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
The book very evidently is targeting the legions in the chaos space marine codex, as death guard are a separate codex it's afe to say they will be considered a separate entity and hopefully handled in a separate book.

Considering how they have been forgotten for every other "legions" update, I'm not too hopeful about that.

What other legions updates have the missed? If you're referring to vigilus that was chaos space marines 2.0 and nothing to do with death guard or t.sons.

Page 31, 32 and 73 disagree. Death Guard were the second largest legion force on Vigilus and took a major part in wiping out Dontoria. Also, CSM 2.0 is not the same as Vigilus Ablaze.

In addition, Shadowspear. While it was perfectly normal for Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels to add everything from that box to their arsenal, TS and DG had no such luck.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
The book very evidently is targeting the legions in the chaos space marine codex, as death guard are a separate codex it's afe to say they will be considered a separate entity and hopefully handled in a separate book.

Considering how they have been forgotten for every other "legions" update, I'm not too hopeful about that.

What other legions updates have the missed? If you're referring to vigilus that was chaos space marines 2.0 and nothing to do with death guard or t.sons.

Page 31, 32 and 73 disagree. Death Guard were the second largest legion force on Vigilus and took a major part in wiping out Dontoria. Also, CSM 2.0 is not the same as Vigilus Ablaze.

In addition, Shadowspear. While it was perfectly normal for Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels to add everything from that box to their arsenal, TS and DG had no such luck.

Dude. Death Guard got a codex of their very own and a whole bloody line of new models, including a freakin' Primarch. All since the release of 8th edition. And that is far more than anyone else got this edition with the exception of Loyalist marines. Whole factions have seen ZILCH aside from a codex. At this point, you're just whining for the sake of whining.

Welcome to Ignore.

 Redemption wrote:
New short story is up:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/04/psychic-awakening-keeping-ordergw-homepage-post-4/

That's actually pretty good. I feel GW's short fiction pieces on WC and in WD are improving a lot recently.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Dude. Death Guard got a codex of their very own and a whole bloody line of new models, including a freakin' Primarch. All since the release of 8th edition. And that is far more than anyone else got this edition with the exception of Loyalist marines.

That was two years ago, and Death Guard lost two thirds of the CSM codex in exchange.
They have gotten absolutely nothing in the meantime, unlike almost every other army in the game - even though they are explicitly mentioned in the fluff of the relevant books as one of the major factions.
Your argument also falls apart the second you find all other codices with major model releases have not been ignored for these publications.
You do understand that I'm not talking about exclusive releases, right? I'm just talking about getting model releases that make perfect sense for the DG to have as well to be added to the codex and getting stuff like specialist detachments when the other legions get them.
There is no good reasons for GW to keep skipping DG and TS on these releases, and it's not irrational to ask for an army not to be forgotten.

Whole factions have seen ZILCH aside from a codex.

Yeah, that has been proven to be wrong already, unless you are talking about GK or TS.

At this point, you're just whining for the sake of whining. Welcome to Ignore.

If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.

IG and Necrons have gotten nothing since the start of 8th. GK got nothing as you said. What have Tau gained?

Being salty over DG not getting new releases really is clutching at straws for the sake of being upset.

Did IG not get Specialist Detachments?

 Eldarain wrote:
Did IG not get Specialist Detachments?

they did, but grey knights didn't, tau didn't. Tyranids didn't. Custodes didn't (whose model release was I'll note much smaller) .

If all were getting is the vigilus treatment gw should stop calling it "supplement tier ". Is the rumor still that csm won't get the ability to level up sorcerers and dark apostles like loyalists will be able to their librarians and chaplains?

Gadzilla666 wrote:
If all were getting is the vigilus treatment gw should stop calling it "supplement tier ". Is the rumor still that csm won't get the ability to level up sorcerers and dark apostles like loyalists will be able to their librarians and chaplains?

I wasn't aware the "level ups" was even remotely confirmed. IMHO if they don't give all chaos armies those, they should at least give them to some specific ones. it'd make perfect sense if word bearers could have better dark apostles and iron warriors better warp smiths, just for example

 Jidmah wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Dude. Death Guard got a codex of their very own and a whole bloody line of new models, including a freakin' Primarch. All since the release of 8th edition. And that is far more than anyone else got this edition with the exception of Loyalist marines.

That was two years ago, and Death Guard lost two thirds of the CSM codex in exchange.
They have gotten absolutely nothing in the meantime, unlike almost every other army in the game - even though they are explicitly mentioned in the fluff of the relevant books as one of the major factions.
Your argument also falls apart the second you find all other codices with major model releases have not been ignored for these publications.
You do understand that I'm not talking about exclusive releases, right? I'm just talking about getting model releases that make perfect sense for the DG to have as well to be added to the codex and getting stuff like specialist detachments when the other legions get them.
There is no good reasons for GW to keep skipping DG and TS on these releases, and it's not irrational to ask for an army not to be forgotten.

Whole factions have seen ZILCH aside from a codex.

Yeah, that has been proven to be wrong already, unless you are talking about GK or TS.

At this point, you're just whining for the sake of whining. Welcome to Ignore.

If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.

I want to point out how on point the first part of this post is. Death Guard lost swathes of units they always had for basically zilch to become "unique". At first I was excited but then I realized how much the codex sucks as written.

 Jidmah wrote:
If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.

Funny, because the only one dropping any in the last two pages is you. As for learning to read, I like how you (again) conveniently forgot GK and DW exist in multiple posts, even after they were pointed out to you several times. Maybe you should actually read those? Oh, and if all you can muster in response to the fact DG got vastly more than anyone else this edition is (utterly laughable and farcical) argument that DW and GK can always ally marines and IG in, thus don't need any updates, then you should just ally the stuff DG ""lost"" (never mind getting much better equivalents, we don't want to spoil the narrative, eh?) and maybe actually look up better arguments or something?