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2019/12/28 09:05:55
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
Quite impressively, GW seems to have found the worst of both worlds.
By promising impactful events and changing storylines, the people who like those are now disappointed by what has been delivered so far, while those who prefer the static setting fear what might be coming up.
They managed to package these things in books that are codex supplements more than they are campaign expansions, meaning they also basically dissatisfy their entire player base on another level: either you play faction X that is covered in one of these PA books, but would have preferred to get a faction-X-focussed supplement without the other stuff stuck on, or you want a general campaign, and instead find yourself with a mini-faction-X supplement you have no use for.
Don't know who came up with this, but it doesn't seem ideal. Reminds me a bit of the Necromunda mess, where more than anything they seem interested in just selling a pile of largely pointless books, and perhaps the occasional new miniature.
2019/12/28 09:08:39
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
I understand the sentiment of wanting to keep things in a status quo state, but having a state over several decades eventually just invites entropy. So I understand very well if GW wants to change that state once in awhile.
It also makes it much harder to introduce new units when you have things in frozen state as you can only pull a rabbit out of a hat in such a state.
The problem I have with the PA books so far is that they are small content patches/fixes with some lore attached that should most likely be free up until an actual point release comes for the faction.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/28 09:12:30
2019/12/28 09:43:58
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: I don't think we're gonna get significant plot advancement until they decide they've sold enough primaris marines and it's time for everyone to replace their collections with even bigger marines. I don't see that happening for a while.
I think plot advancement will resume after 9E appears next summer, although not on the same scale as Gathering Storm / 8E. They introduced a bunch of faction-specific plot points over the last few years that are clearly intended to be explored later (such as Necrons with blackstone, Tyranids 'settling' & fortifying a world). We'll likely see more of these in PA too.
Now that GW are past the breakneck 8E codex release schedule they can go back to releasing new edition 9E codexes alongside new models & units that focus on new fluff.
2019/12/28 11:36:21
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
There seems to be some confusion - its not the Players who claimed /wanted the PA books to be "world changing" campaign books its GW
Have they done this?
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
No they haven't been, but I seem to remember an interview where they talked about it all leading to something in the end. That there were common threads that should become more apparent with each consecutive book that are ultimately clues to the big event in the end. I think the first PAs basically don't have these clues/they're so minor that they'll only be picked up on after the fact.
I can't really figure out where I read/heard this. I'm pretty sure it was an official capacity so maybe it was the GW podcast. If I'm way off and it was just some silly rumour then I apologise.
Even if true though, it might all still just be GW hyperbole
2019/12/28 13:53:44
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
PiñaColada wrote: No they haven't been, but I seem to remember an interview where they talked about it all leading to something in the end. That there were common threads that should become more apparent with each consecutive book that are ultimately clues to the big event in the end. I think the first PAs basically don't have these clues/they're so minor that they'll only be picked up on after the fact.
I can't really figure out where I read/heard this. I'm pretty sure it was an official capacity so maybe it was the GW podcast. If I'm way off and it was just some silly rumour then I apologise.
Even if true though, it might all still just be GW hyperbole
So far, some hints seem to imply the following, in descending order of likelihood:
1) Fulgrim returns.
2) "Endless Spells" for 40k. Psychic Awakening is basically Malign Portents.
3) Something to do with the Emperor waking up, in some fashion.
***Bring back Battlefleet Gothic***
Nurgle may own my soul, but Slaanesh has my heart <3
2019/12/28 17:48:46
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
I don't think endless spells are coming actually.
Too many opportunities for them, and yet not a single own.
Now we're getting the two most prominent psyker factions in the next book, and no models for endless spells.
As for fulgrim, I'm not sold on him being back before one more loyalist primarch comes back. likely russ.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2019/12/28 19:16:51
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
Endless Spells are definitely a possibility. There has been several background references that sound like them, 9th is coming and can include them in the core rules and it's been a proven sales channel in their other flagship game.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2019/12/28 20:46:23
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
PiñaColada wrote: No they haven't been, but I seem to remember an interview where they talked about it all leading to something in the end. That there were common threads that should become more apparent with each consecutive book that are ultimately clues to the big event in the end. I think the first PAs basically don't have these clues/they're so minor that they'll only be picked up on after the fact.
I can't really figure out where I read/heard this. I'm pretty sure it was an official capacity so maybe it was the GW podcast. If I'm way off and it was just some silly rumour then I apologise.
Even if true though, it might all still just be GW hyperbole
Endless Spells in 9th.
What was it PA2 described? A flock of golden eagles? A manifestation of the Emperor's sword that cleaved light? Other things that all sound very similar to Endless Spell models that exist in AoS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/28 20:46:36
2019/12/28 20:54:28
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
BoomWolf wrote: I don't think endless spells are coming actually.
Too many opportunities for them, and yet not a single own.
Now we're getting the two most prominent psyker factions in the next book, and no models for endless spells.
As for fulgrim, I'm not sold on him being back before one more loyalist primarch comes back. likely russ.
Well, I was saying what stuff has been hinted at for release at the finale of PA.
So far, the "Endless Spell" phenomena that have been popping up in the PA books have been rare, bizarre instances, but there being some grand psychic shockwave or something at the culmination of the story - perhaps even as partly side effect of Magnus' ritual - that then leaves them all over the place is very much in the realm of possibility.
As for the loyalists getting another primarch before chaos does, there's nothing really to base that on in PA whatsoever. The only real support for it would be the unsubstantiated assumptions that they're going to have returning primarchs be relatively balanced between the factions, and that they even intend to have more than one loyalist primarch at all.
Meanwhile, hints about Fulgrim activity and sightings and prophecies have been dropping right and left ALL OVER the PA books, with nary a whisper about any loyalists. There's more hints that the EMPEROR might be waking up than that Russ, Vulkan, The Lion or The Khan are coming back!
***Bring back Battlefleet Gothic***
Nurgle may own my soul, but Slaanesh has my heart <3
2019/12/28 22:41:37
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
Some of the "sleeper" hints that people have assumed are the Emperor could be about the Lion I guess.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if PA is effectively a countdown to a Primarch coming back as the intro to 9th, just as Gathering Storm was to 8th, but it's definitely been weaker at building tension so far. Then again, if you assume that the last book would bring that to a head then you'd assume that it would be Russ with it being SW related.
2019/12/28 23:27:44
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
nataliereed1984 wrote: You know, I cannot for the life of me get people complaining that 40k supplements don't move the plot forward along enough...
*uses walker to very, very slowly ascend up to the soapbox*
In MY day, it was implicitly understood that the plot didn't move! And dagnabbit, we didn't WANT it to!
40k was, is, and, Throne willing, ever SHALL be, a game for enjoying fun personalized narrative gaming with your friends!
It's not a cutthroat tournament game, and it's not an ongoing saga.
The STORY is about YOU AND YOUR ARMY. The outcome of majour plot point is WHATEVER HAPPENS IN YOUR GAME.
For a solid 20 years or more (I think?) the biggest "story advancement" was "Oh no there's a bunch of undying, self-repairing, soulless Egypt-themed Terminators with ridiculously powerful weapons waking up!"… and even THAT was meant to feed to the one and ONLY "current" story point:
Everything was going really, really, really badly, and doomsday for the galaxy was right around the corner. It was just a question of HOW.
The exact same was true of Warhammer fantasy, too!
The clock was, for both settings, perpetually frozen at TWO! MINUTES! TO MIIIIIIIDNIGHT! The hands that threaten dooooooom!
Cadia and its allied Imperial forces were ALWAYS making a valiant last stand against the 13th Black Crusade, to hold the Cadian gate, because if Cadia fell, Chaos could swarm out of the Eye of Terror en masse, straight to Holy Terra! The Tyraids were ALWAYS overwhelming the Blood Angels, who (even with the aid of Necrons!) couldn't repel the massive swarm, and would likely soon be devoured! Daemons were ALWAYS threatening to breach Khaine's Gate, and spill forth into Comorragh to devour the souls of the Dark Eldar that had cheated them from their claim to their souls for so long! The Golden Throne was ALWAYS on the verge of flickering out! Thraka was ALWAYS pounding on Yarrick's gates! And so on.
How do the stories end? Well IT FRICKING DEPENDS:
Does your Chaos army beat your friend's Cadian IG army?
Does your Blood Angels army beat your friend's Tyranid army?
Does your Dark Eldar army beat your friend's Daemon army?
That was the point!!!!
If new stuff came along, that wasn't already part of the lore anyway, the general understanding was that it was just portions of the very very very big galaxy that had just not yet been described (as there's TONS of stuff that hasn't). Like the Tau Empire.
This was all done so the players had as much room to imagine and enjoy the story for themselves as possible. Just like "Oh there's 1000s of SM chapters!" and "We don't even KNOW who two of the Primarchs were!" and "Is the Emperor alive? Is He a God? Is he just a psyker? Is he actually a gross mouldy corpse on a chair and it's only the sacrificed psykers that keep the astronomicon going?".
The more GW answers, the more they tell the ongoing story themselves, the more that that is taken from us. Clearly they decided to shift their focus... which I dislike, PARTICULARLY as concerns the still raw wound of End Times... but just look at the silliness they've had to do to make this work in 40k: "All our big climactic events we held to for decades? All anticlimactically concluded, with NONE of them having any consequences anywhere NEAR the scale we said! Some had no real consequences at all! And also everyone inexplicably got the dates wrong, so that way we don't have to rename it 41k. Even though our current events span over a century. AND our normal human and T'au characters haven't aged a day in all that time! Even the ones who were already old-as-dirt, like Yarrick! But it's all good, because plot advancement!"
-ing SPARE ME.
I get that the idea of a SUDDEN apocalypse was more relevant in the 80s, with its Cold War fears, than now, where instead the idea of severe irreparable damage to the place everyone lives and the environment they depend on, a part of the civilization that's pretty much permanently ruined cos it was in the wrong part of that place, and everything SLOWLY COLLAPSING AND GOING TO , makes more sense, and is more relatable, with the fears of climate change, economic collapse, and resurgent fascism we have now... but still...
Don't YOU want to be the author of your army's story???
Oh man, this. ALL of this.
2019/12/28 23:29:50
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
And again - its GW not us saying its a major change in the setting - no matter if we want it or not.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Yeah I was never a fan of the whole "Move things forward" approach either. The galaxy is effectively infinite, there should be no shortage of possibilities without having to move through time in a drastic way. When they introduced the Tau they didn't say "We've jumped ahead 600 years to find this new species", because they didn't have to. Same with any other developments. Yes they can run through a few decades in fast forward for the sake of continuity but they don't have to label it as a new epoch or take us forward by a millennium, it isn't necessary.
2019/12/29 00:18:00
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
The Phazer wrote: Some of the "sleeper" hints that people have assumed are the Emperor could be about the Lion I guess.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if PA is effectively a countdown to a Primarch coming back as the intro to 9th, just as Gathering Storm was to 8th, but it's definitely been weaker at building tension so far. Then again, if you assume that the last book would bring that to a head then you'd assume that it would be Russ with it being SW related.
I really don't think that's the last book. It's just the last of the second "wave", like Blood of Baal was the last of the first "wave". I don't know why people keep making this mistake…
***Bring back Battlefleet Gothic***
Nurgle may own my soul, but Slaanesh has my heart <3
2019/12/29 01:37:25
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
The Phazer wrote: Some of the "sleeper" hints that people have assumed are the Emperor could be about the Lion I guess.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if PA is effectively a countdown to a Primarch coming back as the intro to 9th, just as Gathering Storm was to 8th, but it's definitely been weaker at building tension so far. Then again, if you assume that the last book would bring that to a head then you'd assume that it would be Russ with it being SW related.
I really don't think that's the last book. It's just the last of the second "wave", like Blood of Baal was the last of the first "wave". I don't know why people keep making this mistake…
Especially because GW posted a picture of all factions that would get something from PA and Custodes specifically had their symbol on it. Nothing for them yet save that there is a character coming down the line with a Sisters of Silence character (so I'm betting those will release with whatever PA book Custodes end up in).
2019/12/29 02:14:42
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
The Phazer wrote: Some of the "sleeper" hints that people have assumed are the Emperor could be about the Lion I guess.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if PA is effectively a countdown to a Primarch coming back as the intro to 9th, just as Gathering Storm was to 8th, but it's definitely been weaker at building tension so far. Then again, if you assume that the last book would bring that to a head then you'd assume that it would be Russ with it being SW related.
I really don't think that's the last book. It's just the last of the second "wave", like Blood of Baal was the last of the first "wave". I don't know why people keep making this mistake…
Especially because GW posted a picture of all factions that would get something from PA and Custodes specifically had their symbol on it. Nothing for them yet save that there is a character coming down the line with a Sisters of Silence character (so I'm betting those will release with whatever PA book Custodes end up in).
Obvs agreed on your first point, but: I thought those two characters were meant to be a special, limited edition Black Library release, to coincide with their book?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/29 02:15:13
***Bring back Battlefleet Gothic***
Nurgle may own my soul, but Slaanesh has my heart <3
2019/12/29 03:17:59
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
I like them moving things forward. After a while the same mysteries, the same looming apocalypse, got really stale. Doubly so when one felt they would always stay that way. I see things revealed, things happening, creating room for new mysteries and evolved threats. It doesn't destroy the setting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/29 04:08:12
nataliereed1984 wrote: You know, I cannot for the life of me get people complaining that 40k supplements don't move the plot forward along enough...
*uses walker to very, very slowly ascend up to the soapbox*
In MY day, it was implicitly understood that the plot didn't move! And dagnabbit, we didn't WANT it to!
40k was, is, and, Throne willing, ever SHALL be, a game for enjoying fun personalized narrative gaming with your friends!
It's not a cutthroat tournament game, and it's not an ongoing saga.
The STORY is about YOU AND YOUR ARMY. The outcome of majour plot point is WHATEVER HAPPENS IN YOUR GAME.
For a solid 20 years or more (I think?) the biggest "story advancement" was "Oh no there's a bunch of undying, self-repairing, soulless Egypt-themed Terminators with ridiculously powerful weapons waking up!"… and even THAT was meant to feed to the one and ONLY "current" story point:
Everything was going really, really, really badly, and doomsday for the galaxy was right around the corner. It was just a question of HOW.
The exact same was true of Warhammer fantasy, too!
The clock was, for both settings, perpetually frozen at TWO! MINUTES! TO MIIIIIIIDNIGHT! The hands that threaten dooooooom!
Cadia and its allied Imperial forces were ALWAYS making a valiant last stand against the 13th Black Crusade, to hold the Cadian gate, because if Cadia fell, Chaos could swarm out of the Eye of Terror en masse, straight to Holy Terra! The Tyraids were ALWAYS overwhelming the Blood Angels, who (even with the aid of Necrons!) couldn't repel the massive swarm, and would likely soon be devoured! Daemons were ALWAYS threatening to breach Khaine's Gate, and spill forth into Comorragh to devour the souls of the Dark Eldar that had cheated them from their claim to their souls for so long! The Golden Throne was ALWAYS on the verge of flickering out! Thraka was ALWAYS pounding on Yarrick's gates! And so on.
How do the stories end? Well IT FRICKING DEPENDS:
Does your Chaos army beat your friend's Cadian IG army?
Does your Blood Angels army beat your friend's Tyranid army?
Does your Dark Eldar army beat your friend's Daemon army?
That was the point!!!!
If new stuff came along, that wasn't already part of the lore anyway, the general understanding was that it was just portions of the very very very big galaxy that had just not yet been described (as there's TONS of stuff that hasn't). Like the Tau Empire.
This was all done so the players had as much room to imagine and enjoy the story for themselves as possible. Just like "Oh there's 1000s of SM chapters!" and "We don't even KNOW who two of the Primarchs were!" and "Is the Emperor alive? Is He a God? Is he just a psyker? Is he actually a gross mouldy corpse on a chair and it's only the sacrificed psykers that keep the astronomicon going?".
The more GW answers, the more they tell the ongoing story themselves, the more that that is taken from us. Clearly they decided to shift their focus... which I dislike, PARTICULARLY as concerns the still raw wound of End Times... but just look at the silliness they've had to do to make this work in 40k: "All our big climactic events we held to for decades? All anticlimactically concluded, with NONE of them having any consequences anywhere NEAR the scale we said! Some had no real consequences at all! And also everyone inexplicably got the dates wrong, so that way we don't have to rename it 41k. Even though our current events span over a century. AND our normal human and T'au characters haven't aged a day in all that time! Even the ones who were already old-as-dirt, like Yarrick! But it's all good, because plot advancement!"
-ing SPARE ME.
I get that the idea of a SUDDEN apocalypse was more relevant in the 80s, with its Cold War fears, than now, where instead the idea of severe irreparable damage to the place everyone lives and the environment they depend on, a part of the civilization that's pretty much permanently ruined cos it was in the wrong part of that place, and everything SLOWLY COLLAPSING AND GOING TO , makes more sense, and is more relatable, with the fears of climate change, economic collapse, and resurgent fascism we have now... but still...
Don't YOU want to be the author of your army's story???
Oh man, this. ALL of this.
These are my exact feelings, as well.
2019/12/29 05:01:14
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
Don't YOU want to be the author of your army's story???
I'm unclear how this works. If I wanted to do that, I'd write fanfics. And honestly talking about game-based fanfics is like talking about dreams. No one else really cares.
That my <army> beats Bob's <army> today but loses tomorrow, mostly because of army building and/or dice isn't a narrative experience, and definitely isn't me 'authoring' the 'story.'
Its a game, one of dozens I might play in a given year, one of maybe millions played by various people. It has no context or consequence. It isn't related to the setting or the story (whether the latter exists or not). Hopefully playing the game is fun, but that's about all I expect out of it. A fun social experience while gaming. On a good game night, I'd hope to get a couple in.
The background pretty much has to be interesting in its own right, and enjoyable as a solo experience, because it isn't going to come up in game.
Which circles back around to PA. Its a horrible vehicle for setting, story and rules, because it doesn't linger long enough to establish anything, or give anyone a reason for acting. There isn't enough story or setting to matter, just some nameless worlds of no particular importance where various named characters don't really accomplish anything. Its just overpriced rules sheets for a couple factions at a time.
The few times GW has tried to get players involved in the 'narrative' of a world-wide campaign, they ignored, retconned and revised the results. This time, they aren't even trying (which seems at least more honest and wise).
Some eldar got in a slap fight, various people punched chaos forces in the face on a shrine world, and the 'so what?' question never even gets raised.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/29 05:11:25
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2019/12/29 05:40:18
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
I like writing the story of my army, which is why I like a progressing storyline that they can also progress in. If the setting remains static, so does the story of my army. With events happening I can write my army into the fluff in how it reacts and deals with those events, getting to be a part of them rather than needing to shoehorn them into the defense of Cadia (that will always be stuck on its last stand regardless of what my army does) or have progression limited to XYZ homebrew system that can't have any greater affect on the galaxy at large.
Also, the AoS global campaigns were not ret-conned or ignored and actually did impact the setting in a significant way. There are even rules for sub-factions that only exist because they were successfully defended during a world campaign.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/29 05:41:58
NinthMusketeer wrote: Also, the AoS global campaigns were not ret-conned or ignored and actually did impact the setting in a significant way. There are even rules for sub-factions that only exist because they were successfully defended during a world campaign.
I remember the Storm of Chaos in 2004 quite clearly. If GW had stuck by those results, big bad Archaon would've been turned into a spawn for that epic failure. That campaign literally could not have gone any worse for the Chaos forces.
She/Her
"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln
Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.
nataliereed1984 wrote: You know, I cannot for the life of me get people complaining that 40k supplements don't move the plot forward along enough...
*uses walker to very, very slowly ascend up to the soapbox*
In MY day, it was implicitly understood that the plot didn't move! And dagnabbit, we didn't WANT it to!
40k was, is, and, Throne willing, ever SHALL be, a game for enjoying fun personalized narrative gaming with your friends!
It's not a cutthroat tournament game, and it's not an ongoing saga.
Spoiler:
The STORY is about YOU AND YOUR ARMY. The outcome of majour plot point is WHATEVER HAPPENS IN YOUR GAME.
For a solid 20 years or more (I think?) the biggest "story advancement" was "Oh no there's a bunch of undying, self-repairing, soulless Egypt-themed Terminators with ridiculously powerful weapons waking up!"… and even THAT was meant to feed to the one and ONLY "current" story point:
Everything was going really, really, really badly, and doomsday for the galaxy was right around the corner. It was just a question of HOW.
The exact same was true of Warhammer fantasy, too!
The clock was, for both settings, perpetually frozen at TWO! MINUTES! TO MIIIIIIIDNIGHT! The hands that threaten dooooooom!
Cadia and its allied Imperial forces were ALWAYS making a valiant last stand against the 13th Black Crusade, to hold the Cadian gate, because if Cadia fell, Chaos could swarm out of the Eye of Terror en masse, straight to Holy Terra! The Tyraids were ALWAYS overwhelming the Blood Angels, who (even with the aid of Necrons!) couldn't repel the massive swarm, and would likely soon be devoured! Daemons were ALWAYS threatening to breach Khaine's Gate, and spill forth into Comorragh to devour the souls of the Dark Eldar that had cheated them from their claim to their souls for so long! The Golden Throne was ALWAYS on the verge of flickering out! Thraka was ALWAYS pounding on Yarrick's gates! And so on.
How do the stories end? Well IT FRICKING DEPENDS:
Does your Chaos army beat your friend's Cadian IG army?
Does your Blood Angels army beat your friend's Tyranid army?
Does your Dark Eldar army beat your friend's Daemon army?
That was the point!!!!
If new stuff came along, that wasn't already part of the lore anyway, the general understanding was that it was just portions of the very very very big galaxy that had just not yet been described (as there's TONS of stuff that hasn't). Like the Tau Empire.
This was all done so the players had as much room to imagine and enjoy the story for themselves as possible. Just like "Oh there's 1000s of SM chapters!" and "We don't even KNOW who two of the Primarchs were!" and "Is the Emperor alive? Is He a God? Is he just a psyker? Is he actually a gross mouldy corpse on a chair and it's only the sacrificed psykers that keep the astronomicon going?".
The more GW answers, the more they tell the ongoing story themselves, the more that that is taken from us. Clearly they decided to shift their focus... which I dislike, PARTICULARLY as concerns the still raw wound of End Times... but just look at the silliness they've had to do to make this work in 40k: "All our big climactic events we held to for decades? All anticlimactically concluded, with NONE of them having any consequences anywhere NEAR the scale we said! Some had no real consequences at all! And also everyone inexplicably got the dates wrong, so that way we don't have to rename it 41k. Even though our current events span over a century. AND our normal human and T'au characters haven't aged a day in all that time! Even the ones who were already old-as-dirt, like Yarrick! But it's all good, because plot advancement!"
-ing SPARE ME.
I get that the idea of a SUDDEN apocalypse was more relevant in the 80s, with its Cold War fears, than now, where instead the idea of severe irreparable damage to the place everyone lives and the environment they depend on, a part of the civilization that's pretty much permanently ruined cos it was in the wrong part of that place, and everything SLOWLY COLLAPSING AND GOING TO , makes more sense, and is more relatable, with the fears of climate change, economic collapse, and resurgent fascism we have now... but still...
Don't YOU want to be the author of your army's story???
No, I don't feel any need to write self-insert/marty-stu/isekai/shipping fanfics about 40k because I am not a teenage girl.
The dice tell the story I want to hear. The rest is just noise.
2019/12/29 06:33:00
Subject: Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
The Phazer wrote: Some of the "sleeper" hints that people have assumed are the Emperor could be about the Lion I guess.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if PA is effectively a countdown to a Primarch coming back as the intro to 9th, just as Gathering Storm was to 8th, but it's definitely been weaker at building tension so far. Then again, if you assume that the last book would bring that to a head then you'd assume that it would be Russ with it being SW related.
I really don't think that's the last book. It's just the last of the second "wave", like Blood of Baal was the last of the first "wave". I don't know why people keep making this mistake…
Especially because GW posted a picture of all factions that would get something from PA and Custodes specifically had their symbol on it. Nothing for them yet save that there is a character coming down the line with a Sisters of Silence character (so I'm betting those will release with whatever PA book Custodes end up in).
Obvs agreed on your first point, but: I thought those two characters were meant to be a special, limited edition Black Library release, to coincide with their book?
What BrianDavion said. I'm betting it's all pretty close together, though I didn't know they were getting another BL book. It also explains why White Dwarf didn't give Sisters of Silence any new rules despite doing it for Assassins and Inquisition: they're what Custodes are getting in PA.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/29 06:33:39
2019/12/29 07:22:20
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
nataliereed1984 wrote: You know, I cannot for the life of me get people complaining that 40k supplements don't move the plot forward along enough...
*uses walker to very, very slowly ascend up to the soapbox*
In MY day, it was implicitly understood that the plot didn't move! And dagnabbit, we didn't WANT it to!
40k was, is, and, Throne willing, ever SHALL be, a game for enjoying fun personalized narrative gaming with your friends!
It's not a cutthroat tournament game, and it's not an ongoing saga.
Spoiler:
The STORY is about YOU AND YOUR ARMY. The outcome of majour plot point is WHATEVER HAPPENS IN YOUR GAME.
For a solid 20 years or more (I think?) the biggest "story advancement" was "Oh no there's a bunch of undying, self-repairing, soulless Egypt-themed Terminators with ridiculously powerful weapons waking up!"… and even THAT was meant to feed to the one and ONLY "current" story point:
Everything was going really, really, really badly, and doomsday for the galaxy was right around the corner. It was just a question of HOW.
The exact same was true of Warhammer fantasy, too!
The clock was, for both settings, perpetually frozen at TWO! MINUTES! TO MIIIIIIIDNIGHT! The hands that threaten dooooooom!
Cadia and its allied Imperial forces were ALWAYS making a valiant last stand against the 13th Black Crusade, to hold the Cadian gate, because if Cadia fell, Chaos could swarm out of the Eye of Terror en masse, straight to Holy Terra! The Tyraids were ALWAYS overwhelming the Blood Angels, who (even with the aid of Necrons!) couldn't repel the massive swarm, and would likely soon be devoured! Daemons were ALWAYS threatening to breach Khaine's Gate, and spill forth into Comorragh to devour the souls of the Dark Eldar that had cheated them from their claim to their souls for so long! The Golden Throne was ALWAYS on the verge of flickering out! Thraka was ALWAYS pounding on Yarrick's gates! And so on.
How do the stories end? Well IT FRICKING DEPENDS:
Does your Chaos army beat your friend's Cadian IG army?
Does your Blood Angels army beat your friend's Tyranid army?
Does your Dark Eldar army beat your friend's Daemon army?
That was the point!!!!
If new stuff came along, that wasn't already part of the lore anyway, the general understanding was that it was just portions of the very very very big galaxy that had just not yet been described (as there's TONS of stuff that hasn't). Like the Tau Empire.
This was all done so the players had as much room to imagine and enjoy the story for themselves as possible. Just like "Oh there's 1000s of SM chapters!" and "We don't even KNOW who two of the Primarchs were!" and "Is the Emperor alive? Is He a God? Is he just a psyker? Is he actually a gross mouldy corpse on a chair and it's only the sacrificed psykers that keep the astronomicon going?".
The more GW answers, the more they tell the ongoing story themselves, the more that that is taken from us. Clearly they decided to shift their focus... which I dislike, PARTICULARLY as concerns the still raw wound of End Times... but just look at the silliness they've had to do to make this work in 40k: "All our big climactic events we held to for decades? All anticlimactically concluded, with NONE of them having any consequences anywhere NEAR the scale we said! Some had no real consequences at all! And also everyone inexplicably got the dates wrong, so that way we don't have to rename it 41k. Even though our current events span over a century. AND our normal human and T'au characters haven't aged a day in all that time! Even the ones who were already old-as-dirt, like Yarrick! But it's all good, because plot advancement!"
-ing SPARE ME.
I get that the idea of a SUDDEN apocalypse was more relevant in the 80s, with its Cold War fears, than now, where instead the idea of severe irreparable damage to the place everyone lives and the environment they depend on, a part of the civilization that's pretty much permanently ruined cos it was in the wrong part of that place, and everything SLOWLY COLLAPSING AND GOING TO , makes more sense, and is more relatable, with the fears of climate change, economic collapse, and resurgent fascism we have now... but still...
Don't YOU want to be the author of your army's story???
No, I don't feel any need to write self-insert/marty-stu/isekai/shipping fanfics about 40k because I am not a teenage girl.
The dice tell the story I want to hear. The rest is just noise.
Yes, because that's exactly what writing your own bit of narrative entails. Hot lovin' between Yarrick and Ghazghkull. Or the Lay of the Fair Maiden Venomthrope.
(No, I don't know if either of those exist. And yes, I dread typing those in a search bar and finding out.)
It's just creatively exploring the setting, and producing your own story instead of participating in somebody else's. Using custom characters with names, traits and a history instead of the blank chess pieces they otherwise are.
Fine if you like the game for being the game. I'm not saying you lack imagination, or are otherwise wrong for doing that. But let's not pretend that at the end of the day, we're not just playing with a bunch of plastic soldiers. Like proper adults. (Because it's a grimdark setting that's a socio-political commentary, and wargames are highly strategic beyond their entertainment value. Or something. Anyway, my Battle Nuns are shooting at your Bloodskullblooddaemon, that's 15 dice needing 3s... *makes pew pew noises* ...)
2019/12/29 11:14:08
Subject: Re:Psychic Awakening N&R - New trailer page 106
I think at the end of the day, PA was just NuGW doing their usual thing of hyping things up immensely and then the majority of people were let down when it wasn't a bang, but a whimper. The PA 'campaign' was built up as the biggest thing since sliced bre- uhh, the 13th Black Crusade, but then their marketing changed tact when it became apparent it wouldn't be, and is now just "Wow if you're a loyalist Marine player these are like the bestist books ever for rules, wow!" with narry a mention of lore save the trailers.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I like writing the story of my army, which is why I like a progressing storyline that they can also progress in. If the setting remains static, so does the story of my army. With events happening I can write my army into the fluff in how it reacts and deals with those events, getting to be a part of them rather than needing to shoehorn them into the defense of Cadia (that will always be stuck on its last stand regardless of what my army does) or have progression limited to XYZ homebrew system that can't have any greater affect on the galaxy at large.
Also, the AoS global campaigns were not ret-conned or ignored and actually did impact the setting in a significant way. There are even rules for sub-factions that only exist because they were successfully defended during a world campaign.
You mean the campaign where a faction could gain points by buying models, back when 90% of releases were Sigmarines and 10% Sylvaneth? When WHFB players were still largely angry and not playing it, so the new blood was all playing Order? There was no way that Order weren't going to win and GW knew it.
I'll grant you that Malign Portents was decent though, but very much being choose-your-own-adventure and the Necroquake occuring at the end anyway, the end was always written.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/29 12:48:27
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
-ing SPARE ME.
