Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Galef wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
They will become suddenly more acceptant when primaris bikers roll out.

They better be jetbikes!

No, pls no.
No need for scatbikes 2.0

Wholeheartedly agree, but for theme reasons, not game abuse. I started playing Eldar when their shtick was anti-grav tech supremacy. Flyers didn't exist in 40K and only Eldar had Jetbikes (excluding Sameul of the Ravenwing). It's bad enough that Imperial have 40K scale flyers now, with Hover to boot!, but giving Primaris Jetbikes would just be salt in the wound.

-

Especially because of this.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Still grumpy, still don't care for Primaris, you can pry my beloved mkIV beaky marines from my cold dead hands

And no Primaris Raven guard beakies don't count when you only get two heads per kit

Old beaky helmets fit just fine, they look great on Phobos marines.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Still grumpy, still don't care for Primaris, you can pry my beloved mkIV beaky marines from my cold dead hands

And no Primaris Raven guard beakies don't count when you only get two heads per kit

And even then good luck with that, because i will have Glued them to my cold dead hands!

 Galef wrote:
Wholeheartedly agree, but for theme reasons, not game abuse. I started playing Eldar when their shtick was anti-grav tech supremacy. Flyers didn't exist in 40K and only Eldar had Jetbikes (excluding Sameul of the Ravenwing). It's bad enough that Imperial have 40K scale flyers now, with Hover to boot!, but giving Primaris Jetbikes would just be salt in the wound.

Thematic reasons is exactly why the Primaris got to have jetbikes! They have hover thanks, they need to have hover bikes too.

Also, it's not even a new thing.

 Crimson wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Wholeheartedly agree, but for theme reasons, not game abuse. I started playing Eldar when their shtick was anti-grav tech supremacy. Flyers didn't exist in 40K and only Eldar had Jetbikes (excluding Sameul of the Ravenwing). It's bad enough that Imperial have 40K scale flyers now, with Hover to boot!, but giving Primaris Jetbikes would just be salt in the wound.

Thematic reasons is exactly why the Primaris got to have jetbikes! They have hover thanks, they need to have hover bikes too.

Also, it's not even a new thing.

Dude, where is my landspeeder. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Dude,_Where%27s_my_Land_Speeder%3F

While I agree jetbikes fit with the hover-tanks that Primaris have been getting, I disagree that those ancient Marines on jetbikes can be a basis for justification.
After all, those are from the same era when Eldar had lasguns, Marines had shuriken weapons and Wraithlords were called Eldar Dreadnaughts. Obviously GW had not yet drawn lines that define factions as clearly as they are now

-

 Galef wrote:
While I agree jetbikes fit with the hover-tanks that Primaris have been getting, I disagree that those ancient Marines on jetbikes can be a basis for justification.
After all, those are from the same era when Eldar had lasguns, Marines had shuriken weapons and Wraithlords were called Eldar Dreadnaughts. Obviously GW had not yet drawn lines that define factions as clearly as they are now

-

It isn't because if it were i doubt IoM should have that tech or know how over the ancient legions.

 Galef wrote:
While I agree jetbikes fit with the hover-tanks that Primaris have been getting, I disagree that those ancient Marines on jetbikes can be a basis for justification.
After all, those are from the same era when Eldar had lasguns, Marines had shuriken weapons and Wraithlords were called Eldar Dreadnaughts. Obviously GW had not yet drawn lines that define factions as clearly as they are now

I think some of the Primaris stuff has been inspired by the rogue trader. We have finally seen the glorious return of the marine hover tanks (and this time you don't need to built them out of deodorant bottles) and the Inceptors seem to be inspired by RT art too.




And when GW finally bothers ti release the multipart Infiltrators, I will be totally building one with a beaky, helmet, studded shoulderpad and a shuriken catapult!

I still don't personally like running Primaris, outside of Primaris HQs, but I've never minded the aesthetic. Most of the backlash seems to be centered around the fear of normal marines being phased out, and I think it's becoming clear that GW doesn't have any plans of doing that.

 Crimson wrote:
They better be jetbikes!

(angry saimhani noises)

 Nevelon wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
No model, no rules is the result of 3rd party bits manufacturing and the need for them to legally protect their IP.

As for wargear mixing, this is a design change in Primaris and not really the topic of discussion. I have no issues with limiting wargear as it prevents spam of stronger combos - eg, smash captain. But again, not the topic.

One of the common reasons for people not accepting primaris. Is how they don’t fit into the universe. Part of that is all the new toys that Caul is handing out that break with established lore, but another is the out-of-universe restrictions imposed by GW’s rules and marketing team.

It is a barrier to full acceptance of the primaris line, which i thought was the topic of this thread.

I'd agree. Its several years on and another marine codex, and they still lack parts of the basic toolbox all armies need. A big part of the 'lack of acceptance' is they're still lacking AT and close combat, and GW is spinning a lot of wheels to make them work in 8th edition, where cheap beats elite, and the special rules to compensate are starting to spin out of control.

That and the new design direction for 8.5 edition.

 Shadenuat wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
They better be jetbikes!

(angry saimhani noises)

Who let the knife ears in.
It's slaaneshmas!

When primaris were released the rules were bad (several cost reductions, bolter drill and +1 attack first round have really helped but they needed a lot of help) the lore was worse (Cawl > Big E...) and the threat of replacing the thousands of points of marines that I have painted over the last couple DECADES pissed me off. The fact that land raiders still suck so bad compared to the new models still bugs me (probably more than it should).

But I like the look of most of the models (Shrike can go suck an egg, captain in gravis I hate, the fat boy dread is ugly) I really like the scale and ease of painting (wish they came with a bit more bling but I have a huge box of bits to take care of that).

Now that the rules have gotten better and I've sold most of my mini marines on ebay (or converted them to deathwatch) I don't hate them as much.

The main problem I have now is they work so much better for vanilla marines than my BA/DA/SW it feels like I'm handicapped in any competitive match I bring non-codex astartes marines to. Proper jump-pack melee troops, deep strikers, bikes, and melee primaris will probably come eventually and they will make my armies work but the slow-roll of rules (and accompanying discrepancies of in-game power levels) sucks while you're waiting and paying more points for worse options...

Model wise, I have no real issue with the Primaris beyond the scale creep. They look alright. I would not get any because they are out of scale with my existing miniatures and scale creep is a pet peeve of mine, but I think it makes sense that GW finally made true scale marines and fixed the proportions a bit.

I think new players will probably pick them up because they look cooler, and most of us start off looking at the models and judging the aesthetics. So I think the negative reaction will get less over time for sure.

But I wish they had just made them truescaled marines in tactical squads and so on. I find GWs new "legally protectable" naming really cringey and poorly done.

What I have read of the new background seems like bad fanfic, but that is easy to ignore.

Give it a few more years and Primaris will be the "normal" and the old marines will be a quirky side note.

 Crimson wrote:

Man, that Marine needs to pee! Someone get him to an Imperial sanctioned lavatory!

-

I like the ugly mask and giant jet turbines.

I think Pirmaris are kind of redundant. I always thought the Grey Knights were supposed to be (or at least planned to be) the next generation of space marines.

Dagoth_666 wrote:
I think Pirmaris are kind of redundant. I always thought the Grey Knights were supposed to be (or at least planned to be) the next generation of space marines.

I'd probably be a little more spendy for Primaris Grey Knight.

I love how jet bikes are such a hot topic because other factions have them. Personally I'd like to an eldar tank with treads

BobtheInquisitor wrote:well, yeah. I had planned on a Thousands Son army, but the prices killed that. Not sure I'll end up with many Sisters of Battle, either. It's just that The primaris don't have resin legacy models or a huge swath of OOP starter plastics available for less than ten bucks each (tell me if they do!), so there's no way to ease into the army.

Not an easy way per say, but I find it incredibly easy to convert Intercessors or Reivers from the ETB kits into more specific HQ options (with a good bits box and a little bit of greenstuff, I think you could quite nicely create a Captain, Lieutenant and another HQ from the ETB kits, and just one box of Eliminators, plus two ETB Reiver kits gets you 3 units of Eliminators!). Whatever might help.

Also, the new sets have very few options compared to old favorites like the SM commander, DA veterans, and, of course, the Ravenwing Accessory Sprue. The Primaris upgrade sprues themselves seem sparse and stingy.

While I agree that I vastly prefer the old SM Commander sprue to the new Primaris Captain one, I also vastly prefer the Primaris Captain sprue to the current Space Marine Captain one (which has no options at all!) As you've said, it's not necessarily a Primaris issue, but they do suffer from it. However, because it's not a Primaris only issue, and it actually affects the immediately previous generation of Space Marines even worse, I don't count it against Primaris.

Yeah, I liked the non-combat stuff, but not enough to slog through the Nurgle. I'm up for a good primaris story, whether they are the main focus or not, so long as the other factions in the story aren't tedious. What is Knights of Macragge about?

It's about what happens to Cato Sicarius during his mishap in the Warp when his ship gets stranded and attacked by daemons and the forces of Chaos. It features both Primaris and Firstborn Marines (which I believe is where the term 'Firstborn' first gets used!), and actually quite a lot of Space Marines not actually using bolters and instead doing a lot of melee and unarmoured fighting! There's also some quite nice interaction between two Firstborn about the Primaris, Primaris and Firstborn discussing it, and even two Primaris Marines discussing the two different types of Space Marine, and actually arguing about it! Spoilers below where I'll talk more about the second half if you're not planning on reading it, but if you want to read it properly yourself, don't click!

Crimson wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Still grumpy, still don't care for Primaris, you can pry my beloved mkIV beaky marines from my cold dead hands

And no Primaris Raven guard beakies don't count when you only get two heads per kit

Old beaky helmets fit just fine, they look great on Phobos marines.

I put a beakie helmet on my suppressor sgt and it looks killer.

Crimson wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Wholeheartedly agree, but for theme reasons, not game abuse. I started playing Eldar when their shtick was anti-grav tech supremacy. Flyers didn't exist in 40K and only Eldar had Jetbikes (excluding Sameul of the Ravenwing). It's bad enough that Imperial have 40K scale flyers now, with Hover to boot!, but giving Primaris Jetbikes would just be salt in the wound.

Thematic reasons is exactly why the Primaris got to have jetbikes! They have hover thanks, they need to have hover bikes too.

Also, it's not even a new thing.

Jes spoke at some length in one of the Voxcasts on primaris about taking themes and design cues from RT. The more units that come out, the more I'm liking them as a cohesive whole. Now with the legion specific supplements and characters in modified mkX armour there is even more to pump out your marines.

 fraser1191 wrote:
I love how jet bikes are such a hot topic because other factions have them. Personally I'd like to an eldar tank with treads

Man, that would be hilarious. "Hey, Eldar players! You have been ignored for so long we decided to create a brand new super heavy tank for CWE. Crush your enemies under your wraithbone tracks!" I want to see it happen so much.

 fraser1191 wrote:
I love how jet bikes are such a hot topic because other factions have them. Personally I'd like to an eldar tank with treads

Ugh. No thank you, that would dilute the factions' mechanical and thematic identity (such as it is).

Blastaar wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I love how jet bikes are such a hot topic because other factions have them. Personally I'd like to an eldar tank with treads

Ugh. No thank you, that would dilute the factions' mechanical and thematic identity (such as it is).

It's getting pretty heavily diluted by GW because they keep stealing xenos faction identities to build marine armies with.

Do you like saim Hann armies? Why not buy marines that do it better, with better stats and gear? And a better, more supported product line?

.. hey look, no one is buying saim Han anymore....

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

BobtheInquisitor wrote:well, yeah. I had planned on a Thousands Son army, but the prices killed that. Not sure I'll end up with many Sisters of Battle, either. It's just that The primaris don't have resin legacy models or a huge swath of OOP starter plastics available for less than ten bucks each (tell me if they do!), so there's no way to ease into the army.

Not an easy way per say, but I find it incredibly easy to convert Intercessors or Reivers from the ETB kits into more specific HQ options (with a good bits box and a little bit of greenstuff, I think you could quite nicely create a Captain, Lieutenant and another HQ from the ETB kits, and just one box of Eliminators, plus two ETB Reiver kits gets you 3 units of Eliminators!). Whatever might help.

Also, the new sets have very few options compared to old favorites like the SM commander, DA veterans, and, of course, the Ravenwing Accessory Sprue. The Primaris upgrade sprues themselves seem sparse and stingy.

While I agree that I vastly prefer the old SM Commander sprue to the new Primaris Captain one, I also vastly prefer the Primaris Captain sprue to the current Space Marine Captain one (which has no options at all!) As you've said, it's not necessarily a Primaris issue, but they do suffer from it. However, because it's not a Primaris only issue, and it actually affects the immediately previous generation of Space Marines even worse, I don't count it against Primaris.

Yeah, I liked the non-combat stuff, but not enough to slog through the Nurgle. I'm up for a good primaris story, whether they are the main focus or not, so long as the other factions in the story aren't tedious. What is Knights of Macragge about?

It's about what happens to Cato Sicarius during his mishap in the Warp when his ship gets stranded and attacked by daemons and the forces of Chaos. It features both Primaris and Firstborn Marines (which I believe is where the term 'Firstborn' first gets used!), and actually quite a lot of Space Marines not actually using bolters and instead doing a lot of melee and unarmoured fighting! There's also some quite nice interaction between two Firstborn about the Primaris, Primaris and Firstborn discussing it, and even two Primaris Marines discussing the two different types of Space Marine, and actually arguing about it! Spoilers below where I'll talk more about the second half if you're not planning on reading it, but if you want to read it properly yourself, don't click!

Spoiler:

The second half is the better half by far, as it has Cato, his command squad, three humans, and an incredibly skilled but arrogant Primaris Marine crashland on a nearby planet. They get found by native humans, who are currently at a medieval technology levell. The Space Marines decide to play it diplomatically, and pretend they're knights from a different land on the planet. As a result, they can only use inert power weapons, combat blades, and the Primaris Marine's spear, as well as their own fists and such, resulting in some pretty awesome scenes. Pillium, the Primaris Marine, even gets some cool moments, even if he's a pretty arrogant and generally self-important character - which is intentional, I hasten to add!

To the first part, I am also using old bits to upgrade the ETB Reiver bodies (and soonish maybe intercessors), but they are not really the main product line. I have no plans to buy any Primaris marines that are not ETB or heavily, nay, mercilessly discounted. For some other armies, I might make exceptions despite the ridiculous prices for an outrageous model or a kit with a ton of spare options, but Primaris haven't really hit either of those thresholds yet.

As for the lack of options on sprues, yes it affects all the ranges, but most other ranges still sell older kits with lots of options. Primaris don't have those. So, while the disappointment might not be disproportionately directed from me to the Primaris, they will disproportionately receive it since they have no command squad box equivalent to keep me interested. Not a reason to hate on Primaris, but a lack of a reason to care about Primaris marines, I guess.

Thanks for that heads up about Knights of Macragge. I'll be picking it up when I finish my current reads.

And yeah, that normal SM Captain is super lame. He picks all the same weapons and adornments as every other captain like he has no personality at all.

I kinda hope they don't do Primaris bikes, speeders etc. i like the aesthetics of my Ravenwing and don't want any of the uglyPrimaris vehicles butchering that. It's probably why I am so enamoured by new Ravenguard, I can play with the new Vanguard marines and not invest in any of the vehicles (which keeps me thematic). I don't mind the Redemptor but I cannot stand the repulsor series or the new Impulsor.

I don't actually play Marines at all but I thought an outsider's perspective might nevertheless be of interest to some.

In terms of models, they seem mostly fine. The only ones that really stick out to me are the hover tanks and the Inceptors. The former just don't look right to me. Not sure what it is exactly, maybe the chassis is just too close to that of the normal, tracked vehicles. I know the Imperium likes reusing stuff but come on. But it's the Inceptors that really get me. Their poses just look daft. They don't look like they're flying of their own volition but instead look like Superman just punched them off the ground.

But aside from those and a few minor gripes (I hate the look of the power-fist-guns) the models seem basically fine. Not my thing but nice enough models.

However, the thing that really gets me is that I'm still unclear on why Primaris needed to exist in the first place. Now, if GW wanted to give normal marines Primaris stats then that would seem perfectly reasonable. Likewise, if GW wanted to gradually scale up Marines to Primaris levels to make them stand out more from IG and such, I could understand that as well. I could kind of understand Primaris being a separate faction (like Dark Angels, Space Wolves etc.), though I don't think that would work fluffwise. But what doesn't make sense to me is having Primaris and Space Marines coexisting in the same book. It just seems ridiculous to have so many elite units all trying to occupy the same design space.

Lastly, I'll freely admit that I'm biased on this point but Eldar have been waiting for updated kits for God knows how long, the Dark Eldar codex has spent the last 2 editions haemorrhaging units, and for all intents and purposes Corsairs don't even exist anymore. But no, it was far more important to release a whole new line of fat Space Marines. I guess GW felt it wasn't catering sufficiently to the inflation-fetishist market.

 RuneGrey wrote:

redboi wrote:
I dislike Primaris simply because I now have no idea what to do with my marines. I guess that will get resolved in a few years though. But it makes me not want to spend any money on marines at all atm.

I play Dark Angels. Are ravenwing now defunct? Will there be a primaris replacement? Will the line continue to be supported with rules? Will deathwing be replaced by gravis or something else? Will they even get unique units, or just generic models painted black or bone? Will I be able to use my current army in the future or are they getting totally mothballed?

Any thoughts that old marines models are going to be squatted is just paranoid thinking - GW has shown no inclination towards removing old marine models from play, and while we may see some updates, the iconic units for the chapters have remained intact thus far. In fact, those have remained unique to the old marine models - Deathwing will remain Deathwing, Ravenwing will remain Ravenwing, and I expect any new Primaris units will not add in to those old unique formations and models.

They've ripped Command Squads into three four different units and at least one unit has been outright removed. Things aren't as bad as the end of oldmarines but they aren't perfect either.

It depends what you mean by accepted.

If you mean have people accepted they are part of 40k, well yes of course, i think you'll find most people accepted they were part of 40k when GW first released them, regardless of wether they liked them or not,

If by accepted you mean people who didnt like them in the last 2 years starting to like them now, then no, that doesn't appear to be happening.

One well received model with universal appeal (Agatone) among the recently released chapter specific characters, that is good because it changes poor parts of the MKX aethsetic, hasn't changed that. They were bound to make one good model soon. But its not going to suddenly make people like the previous models or fluff.

Don't mistake good feelings for one or a few new models as people suddenly liking the entire primaris line

 RuneGrey wrote:
Any thoughts that old marines models are going to be squatted is just paranoid thinking

Why can't Primaris use non-Primaris transport?
Why are Primaris being given direct equivalents to every non-Primaris battlefield role?
Why does every new boxed set only feature Primaris?
Why are all the named characters being re-released as Primaris?

I'm not a SM player so I have no horse in this race, but GW's been treating Primaris like a separate army, not an expansion to an existing one, which heavily suggests that the Primaris line is intended to become completely standalone. With the total lack of concurrent updates to normal Marines, I don't see any reason to believe that they intend to keep supporting them in perpetuity.

It may be a couple of years, but I strongly suspect the next SM codex will be Primaris-only, and non-Primaris Marines will be relegated to some form of 'index' status. I'm sure they'll still be usable (although maybe not in tournaments), but they're not going to be getting monthly releases like Primaris are.

I played Chaos Dwarfs back in the day so I've experienced this before. It's not squatting per se, but in the long run it's the same effect.