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Makes sense if you ask me.
FW is something different.

I applaud the attempt to staunch the bleeding but the patient is terminal.

Let's all get ready to salivate for 9th where this will all be fixed

Getting seriously burnt out on this cycle of balance fails that define an edition.

"Just wait the new books will be like this now"
"Well that one wasn't but just hold on this is just the new design paradigm"
"OK well, I guess that's just the way it is now. It's not that bad a few broken corner case lists have edged them out at major events so they aren't unbeatable"

Beyond sheer inertia I have no idea how this is the juggernaut of tabletop gaming.

Could just ban iron hands from tournaments all together until the inevitable nerf. /notsarcasm

Dudeface wrote:

 Stevefamine wrote:
As an IH player that doesnt even have his first one painted up - they're land raider point prices and yet extremely common already locally. Is the event at 2000-2500 points? Then I can see it being an issue.

I'd say banning them from events is over the top - but they should 100% get a nerf in the future to make them not an "auto take 2-3" "why aren't you taking them?"

How do you nerf them is the question, if you raise costs then it hurts none iron hands, you amend iron hands in any way and all it does is punish the rest of the range to get at the leviathan.

To be honest, saying it can't benefit from 1 or 2 parts of the iron hands combo might be the fairest way to bring it in line.

It's very easy:

- Do not allow damage reduction rules to stack.
- Raise the cost of the Dreadnought takes half damage for a turn stratagem to 2 CP for Relic dreads.

Presto, nerfs both IH specifically and Leviathans (and other Relic dreads) in general without making them useless AND prevents stupid damage reduction combos from popping up in the future.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Could just ban iron hands from tournaments all together until the inevitable nerf. /notsarcasm

Well we are looking at half a year+ ban then. And of course are the rest of marines fair either?

tneva82 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Could just ban iron hands from tournaments all together until the inevitable nerf. /notsarcasm

Well we are looking at half a year+ ban then. And of course are the rest of marines fair either?

*Looks at CSM 2.0 codex* No. No they're not

Jokes aside, it's an... interesting choice and TO's ABSOLUTELY have the right to ban things from their tournament, hell it looks like this TO knows it'll be a point of contention among the attendees and he's possibly going with the path of least resistance to avoid headaches. Also maybe he hates IH/FW but his call, if people don't like it they need to boycott the event.

I have seen a lot of grumbling and complaints among locals in my meta, some even outright refusing to place IH's if they're against a forgefather parking lot. IH players are frustrated because they can't get a game, I personally tried one game with my Chaos Daemons, was supremely unfun and haven't jumped at the opportunity to repeat the experience.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Could just ban iron hands from tournaments all together until the inevitable nerf. /notsarcasm

Well we are looking at half a year+ ban then. And of course are the rest of marines fair either?

*Looks at CSM 2.0 codex* No. No they're not

Jokes aside, it's an... interesting choice and TO's ABSOLUTELY have the right to ban things from their tournament, hell it looks like this TO knows it'll be a point of contention among the attendees and he's possibly going with the path of least resistance to avoid headaches. Also maybe he hates IH/FW but his call, if people don't like it they need to boycott the event.

I have seen a lot of grumbling and complaints among locals in my meta, some even outright refusing to place IH's if they're against a forgefather parking lot. IH players are frustrated because they can't get a game, I personally tried one game with my Chaos Daemons, was supremely unfun and haven't jumped at the opportunity to repeat the experience.

I really don't understand those IH players. If you'd just play a normal list most people would be fine with playing them. Why are you bringing a nuke to a knife fight if the goal is to have fun stabbing each other, not killing the other guy.

nekooni wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Could just ban iron hands from tournaments all together until the inevitable nerf. /notsarcasm

Well we are looking at half a year+ ban then. And of course are the rest of marines fair either?

*Looks at CSM 2.0 codex* No. No they're not

Jokes aside, it's an... interesting choice and TO's ABSOLUTELY have the right to ban things from their tournament, hell it looks like this TO knows it'll be a point of contention among the attendees and he's possibly going with the path of least resistance to avoid headaches. Also maybe he hates IH/FW but his call, if people don't like it they need to boycott the event.

I have seen a lot of grumbling and complaints among locals in my meta, some even outright refusing to place IH's if they're against a forgefather parking lot. IH players are frustrated because they can't get a game, I personally tried one game with my Chaos Daemons, was supremely unfun and haven't jumped at the opportunity to repeat the experience.

I really don't understand those IH players. If you'd just play a normal list most people would be fine with playing them. Why are you bringing a nuke to a knife fight if the goal is to have fun stabbing each other, not killing the other guy.

Because they enjoy clubbing seals?
Sometimes the obvious answer is the right one.

I prefer unit by unit 'Nopes' to tournies trying to rebalance stuff myself.

Simply because 'this is objectively too hard' is easier, and less open to bias then 'unless I change X to Y'

 Ordana wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Could just ban iron hands from tournaments all together until the inevitable nerf. /notsarcasm

Well we are looking at half a year+ ban then. And of course are the rest of marines fair either?

*Looks at CSM 2.0 codex* No. No they're not

Jokes aside, it's an... interesting choice and TO's ABSOLUTELY have the right to ban things from their tournament, hell it looks like this TO knows it'll be a point of contention among the attendees and he's possibly going with the path of least resistance to avoid headaches. Also maybe he hates IH/FW but his call, if people don't like it they need to boycott the event.

I have seen a lot of grumbling and complaints among locals in my meta, some even outright refusing to place IH's if they're against a forgefather parking lot. IH players are frustrated because they can't get a game, I personally tried one game with my Chaos Daemons, was supremely unfun and haven't jumped at the opportunity to repeat the experience.

I really don't understand those IH players. If you'd just play a normal list most people would be fine with playing them. Why are you bringing a nuke to a knife fight if the goal is to have fun stabbing each other, not killing the other guy.

Because they enjoy clubbing seals?
Sometimes the obvious answer is the right one.

Yeah, but it's clear that if you're into clubbing seals, people won't like you because of that. Not because your club has spikes.

Well said.

Actually, leviathan is T9, coz there is no reason to not cast might of heroes on him. (and make almost every weapon in the game wound him on 5+/6+).

Pandabeer wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Stevefamine wrote:
As an IH player that doesnt even have his first one painted up - they're land raider point prices and yet extremely common already locally. Is the event at 2000-2500 points? Then I can see it being an issue.

I'd say banning them from events is over the top - but they should 100% get a nerf in the future to make them not an "auto take 2-3" "why aren't you taking them?"

How do you nerf them is the question, if you raise costs then it hurts none iron hands, you amend iron hands in any way and all it does is punish the rest of the range to get at the leviathan.

To be honest, saying it can't benefit from 1 or 2 parts of the iron hands combo might be the fairest way to bring it in line.

It's very easy:

- Do not allow damage reduction rules to stack.
- Raise the cost of the Dreadnought takes half damage for a turn stratagem to 2 CP for Relic dreads.

Presto, nerfs both IH specifically and Leviathans (and other Relic dreads) in general without making them useless AND prevents stupid damage reduction combos from popping up in the future.

There is a lot more nasty to come than Iron hand Leviathans from the Iron hands Supplement.

Hope you enjoy fighting 3 untargetable charictor dreadnaughts hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's (venerable dreadnaughts plus strategums) that can shift wounds onto any infantry squads around them.
Ironhands Airwing as you know they are clearly an army known for their use of airpower and charictors.

Looks like the Chad Leviathan strikes again.

It's also great to see people suggesting Forge World just be banned from the game again - I remember years ago there were people on the forums arguing Forge World was a 3rd party company and claiming the Imperial Armour books weren't legitimate because they'd lost a game to one of them. You might as well just ban whole codexes at this point.

ccs wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Personally would like to see FW banned from many tournaments. Not because I think they are unbalanced or unfair, but mostly because it's just another stack of models/datasheets to learn on top of the million that already exist.
Would much prefer to see people take ven Dreads and redemptors, and keep the deredeos and leviathans for home play.

So come Nov. when the SoB codex arrives (no doubt with new units/strats etc) you gonna sob that they should also be banned because you can't remember them all? How about whatever Psychic Awakening brings? Whatever books come in 2020?

Agreed stupid statements like these help no-one - the rules for the various FW units are no more obscure than the latest splatbook for Marines or the latest bonus in a campign book. If you cna cope with numerous Marine supplements than you can cope with a couple of FW books.

tournament organisers can do exactly what they want - they are putting the effort into running the thing as long as they are up front about any restrictions - if you can;t deal with your super powerful OP unit not being present - then don't go and let people who want to win against an equally powerful opponent enjoy themselves

Beyond sheer inertia I have no idea how this is the juggernaut of tabletop gaming.

People want to play games that they know other people are playing. Quality of rules obviously is not a primary concern for most people.

tneva82 wrote:
Sure. Ban the marine supplements as well then. Why you need to learn more rules? Oh and get rid of all the specialist detachments as well on the same logic!

These are much better ideas than banning FW.

Ice_can wrote:
Ironhands Airwing as you know they are clearly an army known for their use of airpower and charictors.

They're a Chapter noted for their use of vehicles, and have a book about their pilots - Medusan Wings.

Did the TO also ban the 100 pts. T8 W12 eldar psyker ?

Organizers have rights to impose restrictions if they think it will make their event better. ETC don`t allow forgeworld and index weapon options.
Now GW is thinking about legends so they also drop them.
Nova had restriction on GSC to come to turn 3, since they trough it was to powerful for their mission format. GW also implemented the some rule.

After this it will not take long before the levi dreaths and IH got some nerfs.

 p5freak wrote:
Did the TO also ban the 100 pts. T8 W12 eldar psyker ?

The 100 point psyker who needs to pay extra for a gun (145 with D cannon), DOESN'T know smite and his powers are, give a wraith unit 6+++, give them an additional D6 to advance/charge and drop the lowest, or reduce all enemy units leadership by 1 as long as they're within 6".

You can give it a warlord trait to make its guns target characters and with a D cannon that's tasty, but 145 super sniper with 24" range (doesn't need los) with D3 shots is tasty but nowhere near in comparison to IH leviathans.

Wraithseers are an interesting option but not worth spamming, are awful compared to other HQ choices and equal points worth and have a fraction of the support IH Leviathans do.

I hope the pendulum doesn't swing too far the other way when GW gets to balancing the Leviathans. I run one in my Sallies with the Melta Lance and a snippy claw (which is already a sub-par way to run it). Raising the points for the base model just because of it's interactions with IH would be quite devastating.

Marin wrote:
Organizers have rights to impose restrictions if they think it will make their event better. ETC don`t allow forgeworld and index weapon options.
Now GW is thinking about legends so they also drop them.
Nova had restriction on GSC to come to turn 3, since they trough it was to powerful for their mission format. GW also implemented the some rule.

After this it will not take long before the levi dreaths and IH got some nerfs.

As long as they're not breaking the leviathan in the process I'm fine with that. Mine is green and a lot less prone to collateral damage, and I want to be able to use it

 Orodhen wrote:
I hope the pendulum doesn't swing too far the other way when GW gets to balancing the Leviathans. I run one in my Sallies with the Melta Lance and a snippy claw (which is already a sub-par way to run it). Raising the points for the base model just because of it's interactions with IH would be quite devastating.

I'm looking forward to the eventual cull where one of the few units that makes my army viable is nerfed into the ground because GW can't balance its way out of a paper bag.

 chimeara wrote:

 Continuity wrote:
That's unfortunate, I want to see some player bring 3 IH leviathans expecting easy wins and then getting clowned by an eldar airwing running circles around them before getting tagged by a venom charging from behind a wall.

Leviathan is an obvious boogeyman to point fingers to because of the whole "lmao look not even a warlord titan can kill it" meme, meanwhile those 3 repulsor executioners just keep on paddling.

I watched a batrep from glasshammer IH vs an 8 plane Eldar list. On T3 Eldar only had 1 plane. It was brutal. That same Eldar list went 5-0 at LGT fwiw.

You can only hope that GW learnt from their Ynnari rework and don`t nuke the unit.
The saving is that is FW unit and they can modify things easier on the fly. But the other SM ventricles could really suffer, because the rule team overbuffed single faction.

 blood reaper wrote:

 Orodhen wrote:
I hope the pendulum doesn't swing too far the other way when GW gets to balancing the Leviathans. I run one in my Sallies with the Melta Lance and a snippy claw (which is already a sub-par way to run it). Raising the points for the base model just because of it's interactions with IH would be quite devastating.

I'm looking forward to the eventual cull where one of the few units that makes my army viable is nerfed into the ground because GW can't balance its way out of a wet,riddled with holes¨paper bag.

There fixed it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marin wrote:

 chimeara wrote:

 Continuity wrote:
That's unfortunate, I want to see some player bring 3 IH leviathans expecting easy wins and then getting clowned by an eldar airwing running circles around them before getting tagged by a venom charging from behind a wall.

Leviathan is an obvious boogeyman to point fingers to because of the whole "lmao look not even a warlord titan can kill it" meme, meanwhile those 3 repulsor executioners just keep on paddling.

I watched a batrep from glasshammer IH vs an 8 plane Eldar list. On T3 Eldar only had 1 plane. It was brutal. That same Eldar list went 5-0 at LGT fwiw.

You can only hope that GW learnt from their Ynnari rework and don`t nuke the unit.
The saving is that is FW unit and they can modify things easier on the fly. But the other SM ventricles could really suffer, because the rule team overbuffed single faction.

nope, with CA and the longevity it just is a pendulum letting be swung longer, but learnt, i doubt it.

Can we all agree that the Levi by itself is slightly OP, but the IH crap with a Levi is broken as all hell?

Because the IH here is the problem. While the Levi is bad, it's not the problem. The godmode cheat code you get with IH is the problem.

The IH codex proves that GW has no clue what they are doing with rules. Who wrote the rules? Someone who had NEVER heard of FW before?

 p5freak wrote:
Did the TO also ban the 100 pts. T8 W12 eldar psyker ?

Comparing the wraithseer and leviathan is like comparing oranges to apples.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can we all agree that the Levi by itself is slightly OP, but the IH crap with a Levi is broken as all hell?

Because the IH here is the problem. While the Levi is bad, it's not the problem. The godmode cheat code you get with IH is the problem.

The IH codex proves that GW has no clue what they are doing with rules. Who wrote the rules? Someone who had NEVER heard of FW before?

1st, which levi,secondly on it's own, and with most dreads it is fine, i'd persoanlly rather field an allied knight then one, altough with the doctrines and trait rework gw atleast for loyalist broke it through overall rules creep.

Third: Most FW rules atm seem that way, considering multiple FW lists got "butchered" to the point they are non functional anymore and don't have the capability to actually represent what they were. GW also thinks that correspondant units in FW are equal to their mainline units, which leads to a whole slew of hillarious situations, like Renegade and heretics Militia, or Cultists, which got the same pricehike nerf as CSM however are worse then them by design of the whole list.

It is fair to assume that their ruleteam has not really an idea about FW units or armies as a whole so it is a save bet they wouldn't realise that this would be a issue, then again the repulsor variant is superior imo.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Did the TO also ban the 100 pts. T8 W12 eldar psyker ?

Comparing the wraithseer and leviathan is like comparing oranges to apples.

A mildly satisfying easy peeler to a freshly picked pink lady.